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What if Stalin in April 1944 acquired all the memories and historical and political knowledge of every Soviet or Russian leader until April 2024?

raharris1973

Well-known member
What if an ASB genie granted Stalin in April 1944 acquired all the memories and historical and political knowledge of every Soviet or Russian leader until April 2024?

The usual caveats apply, that this doesn't make him insane, say crazy things, have a nervous breakdown. He's able to appear to others like his "normal" self, so no lose power, he just has tons more secret knowledge.

......and he does not have unlimited personal energy or computational skills so while he can leverage the technical knowledge of later Soviet and Russian leaders to "nudge" Soviet science and tech in a more advanced or better direction, he couldn't become some genius inventor, personally...

How does Stalin use that knowledge the rest of his life to shape the Soviet Union, Europe, the geopolitical "neighborhood" of the Soviet Union, and his political legacy?

How does it change his conduct of the remaining months of WWII in Europe, and the Pacific, if at all?

And how does it change Soviet domestic and foreign policy moves, post-Axis defeat?



---------As an alternative, consider a second, more modest version of the same scenario -
On his death in March 1953, Stalin's entire set of memories and knowledge from the last decade of life is inserted back into his younger self as of March 1943 - how does Stalin wage the 2nd half of the Great Patriotic War differently, and then the Cold War through the Korean War?
 

raharris1973

Well-known member
I will consider the smaller scale scenario first:
---------As an alternative, consider a second, more modest version of the same scenario -
On his death in March 1953, Stalin's entire set of memories and knowledge from the last decade of life is inserted back into his younger self as of March 1943 - how does Stalin wage the 2nd half of the Great Patriotic War differently, and then the Cold War through the Korean War?

If Stalin from the late Korean War era has his mind and memories pop in to his mind and body ten years earlier, in March 1943, shortly after the Stalingrad victory, how can he increase Soviet success in WWII?

Can he direct the front in a manner, anticipating German moves, so that he can follow up the Stalingrad victory and not have Red Army's forces checked afterward at 2nd Kharkov by Manstein's "backhand slap"?

Could or would Stalin concentrate some air or ground force resources, right then in March, on recapturing the area of Katyn Forest area (Smolensk region), or bombing it from the air, to disrupt the German discovery or verification, photographing and broadcasting of the Katyn massacre evidence and delaying the emergence of western Allied suspicions, before the Germans did all this from April 1943?

Could personal knowledge he brings back (of Nazi moves, German vulnerabilities, organizational and technological solutions and mistakes) in time help improve Soviet operations to the degree that the Soviet front rolls forward against the Nazis months, or up to a year faster?

I would imagine, if possible, given how *this* Stalin remembers how the Cold War and Korean War later broke out, and the NATO alliance was started, he would want to at least try to finish the war in Europe with more of the continent under Soviet military occupation and legitimately diplomatically recognized as such.

Probably getting more of Germany and Austria would be first priority, but can be challenging, as the faster the Soviets advance and destroy Nazi forces, yes it does provide the opportunity for greater occupation--but Germany, trying to survive, would also rush reinforcements from west and south to the east to oppose the Russians, and that could make western Allied landings and progress swifter than our timeline as well. However, in addition to occupying more of Germany and Austria, perhaps all of it, Stalin would see occupying/liberating Denmark as a strategic gain since it is a strategic chokepoint on the Baltic.

If the Soviets were to succeed, through better campaigning informed by future knowledge, in occupying all of Germany up to its western borders, then it is possible for Soviet forces to participate in the liberation of the Low Countries and eastern France. There's no way for the Soviets to realistically cover all the ground of the Low Countries, and certainly not France, before Western Allied forces staging from Britain also land and local resistance rises up. The same also applies in Norway, where at most, the Soviets could advance further into northern Norway than historical, and that would likely remain a low priority compared to other parts of Europe.

The Soviet Union in an optimistic scenario (for Stalin) could have forces in place in parts of the Low Countries and Norway that could be used to leverage those countries into neutrality, but would not be able to shape them politically to support Communist takeovers. However, if sitting on the Rhine on the German side they could coordinate politically and materially with French Communists.

If the Soviet advance into Romania, the Hungarian plain, Yugoslavia and Austria at any greater speed than OTL, without a corresponding increase in speed of western advance up the Italian boot, the Soviets could well get some armed formations in Venezia Giulia and get more of say in the occupation of Italy.

Of course the mention of Yugoslavia brings up Tito and the question of what to do about it. For 1953-minded Stalin *what* to do about Tito is quite clear, kill and disempower the man, in whichever order. The only questions are about *how* and *when* to do it. Because the ideal situation for Stalin would be to still ultimately make use of the Partisan movement in Yugoslavia, and the Yugoslav Communist Party, or a Communist Party, just one that is completely broken to his will.

And in the Balkans in general, Stalin knows the outcome in Greece of Communist defeat. He more or less expected it. He watched and listened while Churchill proposed the "percentages" agreement and didn't disagree. (I am not aware of a quote where he explicitly agreed either). But given the effort the Greek Communists were able to put up for a few years, and the early Anglo-American controversies over it, might Stalin while sweeping the Balkans have wanted to sweep down into at least northern Greece, leaving Salonica, Thrace, Macedonia, their cities, and troves of captured Nazi weapons in the hands of ELAS KKE, (like in Chinese Manchuria), to tilt the balance of any Greek Civil War in favor of the Communists?

Or, knowing that pressing the Turks for territorial concessions postwar would fail, would Stalin made up an excuse to declare war on them and seize the straits, at least the Thracian side, while he had armies marching through Bulgaria *during* WWII.

Also, at the conclusion of WWII, knowing that his sponsored Azeri and Kurdish puppet states in northern Iran would easily fall after Soviet evacuation, and that Iran, despite the flexibility it was hinting at regarding a north Iran oil concession to the USSR in 1946, would ultimately reject it, decide to remain in perpetual occupation of northern Iran?

The end date of WWII in Europe, whether it fall on the historic May 1945 date, or months to a year earlier, is a significant variable for everything that follows, because it has direct bearing on how soon the Soviets can launch a full-strength participation in the war against Japan and absorb specialized American Lend-Lease aid in support of that task, about 3 months after VE Day basically.

But let's set that variable aside for the moment, hold it still and assume VE Day comes at the same historical time, May 1945.

Would Stalin want to do anything than historical with the Soviet entry into the Pacific War against Japan? OTL's results were not bad, relatively high gain in prestige and influence, for low losses.

But might Stalin want to ensure the Soviet declaration of war on Japan, and its assault gets started at least a week or two before he expects the first atomic bomb is dropped, instead of after? The reason would be to claim more prestige and credit and recognition for forcing the defeat of Japan. The Soviet effort would get more global publicity and notice if it hadn't started the day after the first atomic bomb. If the Soviets were really lucky, the Japanese would surrender after Soviet entry, but before the atomic bomb (there's a theory it was more important), giving the Soviets even *greater* credit and prestige for inflicting the final blow.

If Stalin were really greedy for credit, and perhaps a better chance to occupy all of Korea (after all, from his Korean War perspective, all of it is better than half), and perhaps some of the home islands, might Stalin initiate the switch to war on Japan after only a shorter gap after VE Day of just two weeks, one month or two months instead of three whole months like historical? What is lost from the build-up and preparations could be to great extent "regained" by the headstart in grabbing Japanese territory and destroying Japanese forces and defenses at the border, and more time to campaign in which Soviet forces of the first echelon, already superior in equipment and number to opposing Japanese, and surprising the hell out of them, reinforced by additional echelons being transferred from Europe over the weeks and months. The Soviets could potentially use an earlier start and more campaigning time (if Japan chooses to be stubborn and await getting nuked) to range their forces all through Manchuria and Korea, extend their operations into northern China south of the Great Wall, and move on from Sakhalin and the Kuriles to Hokkaido before Japan surrenders, creating a more advantageous political-military-diplomatic situation for the USSR postwar, and removing any need to fight a later Korean War. The extra campaigning time might be worth the risks of an earlier, less prepared, less spectacular, start to the fight with Japan.

Since in the Korean War, Stalin's cooperation with Kim Il-Sung and Mao was stable and effective, he probably would not have motivation to prevent their rise to power in this mind-time-travel exercise. And since the Americans were unexpectedly stubborn about defending their position in Korea and used Japan as a militarized platform, Stalin would probably be equally motivated as in OTL to participate in the Pacific War to match or increase the Soviet control over Korea compared OTL, and reduce the American monopoly on the occupation of the Japanese home islands if at all possible.

So those motives would argue for him to engage against Japan with haste equal to, or greater than, OTL.

-----After WWII, wherever the lines are when it ends, we then have Stalin with postwar decisions to make.
What would he decide similarly, or differently, from OTL?

As I was getting at before, I think he had come around by his death to viewing the Communist takeover of China as positive. So as much support and supportive behavior for the Chinese Communists as OTL, or more - not less. Same for Communist takeover in Korea in my view.

Stalin would know in advance a Berlin Blockade would not work, so he would not use that tactic, and might negotiate to avoid that type of interspersed occupation zone situation in general.

If Tito weren't dealt with before the defeat of Germany, he would be a priority after.

Stalin was already on the outs with Israel and had restarted anti-Zionist campaigns, and was upset by spontaneous Soviet Jewry support of Israel. On the other hand, he had no Arab friends or clients yet and was cynical about their governments. So Stalin, doing it all over again, might stick with a consistently anti-Zionist line, oppose the partition of Palestine in the UN, recognition of Israel, and direct that the Communist Parties of satellite states like Czechoslovakia prevent the sale and delivery of arms to Israel. He might seek to thwart post-war east bloc Jewish emigration of survivors to the west and Palestine (mainly from Poland, Hungary and Romania), but probably not as too many factions in those countries found it more convenient to encourage than oppose in postwar scarcity. On the other hand, Stalin may repeat what he did historically, and tactically support Israel, for the anti-British purposes he did in OTL.
 
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raharris1973

Well-known member
For the longer-term scenario -

What if an ASB genie granted Stalin in April 1944 acquired all the memories and historical and political knowledge of every Soviet or Russian leader until April 2024?

Things would go a little differently.

Stalin would not be able to "reset the table" for a different ending to WWII as much as in the scenario where he went back to March 1943 right after Stalingrad.

Forces and preparations are well underway the Allied invasion of France, and the Allies already occupy southern Italy and are prosecuting a Combined Bomber Offensive.

Compared with the previous scenario, Stalin is much less likely to compound successive battlefield successes, using "future knowledge, to get a great lead on the Western Allies to occupy all of Germany for example, or penetrate Italy or the Low Countries. Some alteration of the German occupation zones in Soviet favor remains a possibility, but not by a lot. The Soviets reaching Denmark before the Brits remains a small possibility.

The Soviets modifying their Balkan campaign plans a bit to do more across the Greek border for the possible benefit of the Greek Leftists remains possible, as is the possibility of extending the war to Turkey, plus taking action of some kind or another, "wet work" to remove Tito from the scene.

The Soviets would have similar choices to make about whether, and when, to start participation in the war on Japan.

Stalin might decide that his timing to join the war on Japan historically was perfect, and do it all over again. Or he might conclude that if he sped up his entry into the Pacific War a bit, he could increase Soviet prestige and the amount of territory in northeast Asia under Soviet strategic control at the end of the war.

But in this scenario, he might also consider a 3rd (or 4th) course of action in the Pacific - ultimately not participating in the war at all.


Why? I bet you're wondering.

But it relates to the fact that in this scenario, Stalin sees over the horizon and into the future not just to the end of his lifetime and the Korean War, but through the entirety of the first Cold War and the demise of the Soviet Union, and beyond to the 21st century and the Russo-Ukrainian war.

So, in this scenario, Stalin is aware of every nasty thing any successor said about him and every mistake they ever made, and for that, they are going to be dead meat, sooner or later. Even young teenager Gorbachev and kid Boris Yeltsin. He is also aware of any leader, Communist or otherwise, who screwed with the USSR and then with Russia.

Therefore, Stalin will become aware that despite the People's Republic of China, and Mao, working together with the Soviet Union in a close alliance for the first decade of its existence from 1949-59- cooperating on the Korean War, Mao and Communist China made themselves a constant thorn in the Soviet side in the following decade of the 1960s, escalating to border war in 1969. Then worse, for the 70s and 80s, the PRC under Mao, and then later Hua and Deng Xiaoping, rapproched with the USA, often cooperating in those decades against the USSR and its allies. While Stalin would be aware that China's relations with post-Soviet Russia became much less tense and more positive, his takeaway would still be that Mao and Deng were impossible rat bastards, and that for most of the USSR-PRC coexistence, the USSR suffered from it as much as it gained.

Other things that Stalin discovers from gaining memories/knowledge of the longer Cold War are that Israel grew to become a major US Middle East ally, and twice humiliated the USSR, indirectly, by defeating pro-USSR Arab client states armed with Soviet equipment and training. Furthermore, he'll be aware that Israeli and American Jewish emigration lobbies, via the Jackson-Vanik amendment, used the status of Soviet Jewry as justification for economic sanctions on the USSR and Russia. Stalin 1943 had an anti-Zionist line, but hardly thought about it. This time around when it comes to supporting votes for partition or arming Israel, he' probably be opposed.

He'd discover Afghanistan would brew into a trouble spot, as would Iran.

So, bringing things back to end of WWII planning, Stalin might experiment with not participating in the Pacific War at all.
Reasoning could be:
-Why go exert the effort in Manchuria that boosts the creation of a Communist China that will for most decades be huge pain in the ass to the USSR?
-Why exert the effort to create a North Korea that starts Korean War it does not win and that actually moves America to militarize more and European and Japanese economies to grow faster?
-Why not instead focus on Soviet reconstruction, catching up the Soviet nuclear program, and strengthening the Soviet position in Europe and the Middle East instead of getting into the Pacific War while America finishes that war?
-Why not leverage *not going to war* with Japan, never violating the treaty as a way to comparatively boost the political position of the Japanese Communist Party, but also to have better relations with any Japanese government over the long postwar period, during much of which it is in an economic rivalry with the USA?
-Why not see, in the absence of Soviet participation, if the Japanese still won't surrender after two bombs, and the Americans need to bomb more, looking worse, or possibly invade? It's a potential win-win for the USSR, it gets to see in more detail what an atomic war looks like, Japan is more destroyed as a possible rival/danger, America looks uglier to the world, and in the worst case for America its Pacific War takes months longer to end and it takes that much longer for it to organize itself for Cold War (there is a slight risk that just two bombs by themselves would result in timely Japanese surrender)


----A fourth alternative approach to the endgame of the Pacific War, that would still deal with the Mao problem, might be to intervene in as timely manner as OTL, or earlier, but maintain a more direct Soviet influence in Manchuria and north China post-war, use "wet-work" to gain more control over the CCP and remove Mao and Deng, working toward a PRC, but one that can be more reliably pro-Soviet for longer. As an extra pre-caution, the USSR could work more toward a partition of China on north-south lines with an American-backed KMT perpetually remaining in charge in the south, to keep the North and Northeast China based PRC more dependent on the USSR over the long-term.
 

ATP

Well-known member

What if an ASB genie granted Stalin in April 1944 acquired all the memories and historical and political knowledge of every Soviet or Russian leader until April 2024?

The usual caveats apply, that this doesn't make him insane, say crazy things, have a nervous breakdown. He's able to appear to others like his "normal" self, so no lose power, he just has tons more secret knowledge.

......and he does not have unlimited personal energy or computational skills so while he can leverage the technical knowledge of later Soviet and Russian leaders to "nudge" Soviet science and tech in a more advanced or better direction, he couldn't become some genius inventor, personally...

How does Stalin use that knowledge the rest of his life to shape the Soviet Union, Europe, the geopolitical "neighborhood" of the Soviet Union, and his political legacy?

How does it change his conduct of the remaining months of WWII in Europe, and the Pacific, if at all?

And how does it change Soviet domestic and foreign policy moves, post-Axis defeat?



---------As an alternative, consider a second, more modest version of the same scenario -
On his death in March 1953, Stalin's entire set of memories and knowledge from the last decade of life is inserted back into his younger self as of March 1943 - how does Stalin wage the 2nd half of the Great Patriotic War differently, and then the Cold War through the Korean War?
Do not enslave openly european countries,but made fair deal with them - finland status in exchange for full political support.
Purge party and NKWD again,so they would not kill him like in OTL.
Demobilize,do not start korean war - or,start but do not support later.

As fast as he have more then 20 A bombs, invade Europe.Then, made all countries in Europe soviets for real.

And,of course,kill kruszczov,Beria and molotov first.
 

raharris1973

Well-known member
StaliDo not enslave openly european countries,but made fair deal with them - finland status in exchange for full political support.
Purge party and NKWD again,so they would not kill him like in OTL.
Demobilize,do not start korean war - or,start but do not support later.

As fast as he have more then 20 A bombs, invade Europe.Then, made all countries in Europe soviets for real.
One could quibble with your particular items of advice and specific numbers, but I think I correctly understand your argument as wait to be too aggressive or too much control control on buffer states until getting a good strategic nuclear weapons advantage and invasion capability, do not bog down Soviet resources in Korean War even if allowed to happen, and when you have sufficient atomic bomb/delivery advantage, seize mainland Europe and Sovietize it. Which has a certain logic to it.

You don't seem to think he would have much power or time *in WWII* to preempt and get more of Europe (or Asia) before the western powers do, so this sounds like mostly a post-WWII project, after building up a Soviet atomic arsenal, and presumably America would still get its bombs first during WWII, because it can afford it, and the USSR cannot.

And,of course,kill kruszczov,Beria and molotov first.
I get the first two, but not Molotov.

I had not heard of Molotov taking an anti-Stalin line (although possibly late in life Stalin was about to turn against Molotov), and after Stalin's death, I always thought Molotov was the old Soviet leader who most condemned bad-mouthing Stalin and supported old-fashioned Stalinist policy lines. A Stalin who learns all the history up to 2024 would learn this, and might want Molotov as the survivor when he dies.
 

ATP

Well-known member
One could quibble with your particular items of advice and specific numbers, but I think I correctly understand your argument as wait to be too aggressive or too much control control on buffer states until getting a good strategic nuclear weapons advantage and invasion capability, do not bog down Soviet resources in Korean War even if allowed to happen, and when you have sufficient atomic bomb/delivery advantage, seize mainland Europe and Sovietize it. Which has a certain logic to it.

You don't seem to think he would have much power or time *in WWII* to preempt and get more of Europe (or Asia) before the western powers do, so this sounds like mostly a post-WWII project, after building up a Soviet atomic arsenal, and presumably America would still get its bombs first during WWII, because it can afford it, and the USSR cannot.
yes,sorry for being unclear.play good old uncle joe and do not break agreemants with Europe being democratic - but keep army there,and use it when you have enough A bombs.
I get the first two, but not Molotov.

I had not heard of Molotov taking an anti-Stalin line (although possibly late in life Stalin was about to turn against Molotov), and after Stalin's death, I always thought Molotov was the old Soviet leader who most condemned bad-mouthing Stalin and supported old-fashioned Stalinist policy lines. A Stalin who learns all the history up to 2024 would learn this, and might want Molotov as the survivor when he dies.
For some reason he wanted to kill him before his death,so he would do that ,too.
 

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