What is the latest plausible PoD that can keep the European Axis fighting until 1 August, 1945?

raharris1973

Well-known member
What is the latest plausible PoD that can keep the European Axis fighting until 1 August, 1945?

Could a divergence that causes the European Axis (likely just Nazi Germany) to hold out this many months longer happen, and yet *not* have 'knock-on' or butterfly effects delaying the timetable of the Manhattan project or the captures of Okinawa and Iwo Jima in the Pacific?

Assuming the Nazis capitulate/get completely overrun by 1 August, 1945, and the Japanese get hit by atomic bombs on 6 and 9 August, respectively, when do the Japanese agree to capitulate?

Do they wait until being hit by one or more additional atomic bombs before capitulating? How many days/weeks before additional bombs are used? Or do the Japanese not capitulate until the Soviets also declare war and attack, whether that comes in a week or two, or a month or two?

Without the Soviets having three months for a special build-up in the Far East, and to transfer units, supplies and commanders from the ETO, but only troops on hand in Kamchatka, northern Sakhalin, and the Far East, can the Soviets launch a successful immediate offensive against the Japanese in a matter of days similar to OTL's schedule August 8th or within a week after?

I would assume no matter what, the Japanese, except in Sakhalin maybe, would be in no position to counter-attack on the Soviets at the operational level and go into Soviet territory, but how much less successul, in terms of ground Japanese gained and forces destroyed would a rushed, scratch Soviet offensive be, compared to OTL's massively overprepared August Storm?

Meanwhile, how many more KIA would the Allies east and west suffer in the 3 months longer European war? How many more Germans (& people in Germany) killed by bombing, and how many more Slavic, Gypsy and Jewish Holocaust victims?
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
@sillygoose's idea of having Hitler go for a mini-offensive in eastern Belgium in the winter of 1944 might work for this.
It was Rundstedt and Model's idea, I just suggested what if it had happened instead. It most certainly would work for this given that if it worked the Wallied armies would be crippled and wouldn't be able to take a significant offensive action for at least 6 months as a result and free up at least 1 panzer army for use in the East, which when coupled with an idea @History Learner has suggested about a counter offensive would seriously cripple Soviet forces as well. In victory in the west with the 'Small Solution' offensive the huge amounts of equipment, fuel, and supplies captured and available to the Germans at a crucial time would dramatically enhance their fighting capabilities over what they were able to achieve IOTL in 1945 with all the massive fuel, equipment, and other supply shortages.

Depending on how quickly the entire campaign could be conducted the 6th Panzer army might even end up in Hungary in January for the 3rd offensive to relieve Budapest. If that happens then rather than redeploying the IV SS Panzer Corps it stays in place, continues it's operations, which were actually starting to work during the 2nd offensive but IOTL were called off by Hitler so they could deploy somewhere else (a decision highly criticized by the troops on the ground), and the 6th Panzer army then attacks in the place where the IV SS was sent IOTL, which effectively would mean the majority of the 3rd Ukrainian Front would be destroyed, Budapest relieved, the Danube recovered as a defense line, and a heap of equipment and supplies captured by the Germans and Hungarians which would be extremely useful going forward; it also likely means the Soviets had to deploy substantial reserves to the region to prevent a rout, which weakens the push in Poland.

That alone massively changes the character of the conflict in the Balkans/Danube area and allows the Germans to focus the bulk of their strength against the Soviets in Poland since the Danube flank and western border are effectively secured until at least Summer. Even with the major victory on the Vistula in January that leaves the Soviet highly vulnerable to a major counterattack per HL's scenario.

Of course in his scenario there is no mention of a victory in the Ardennes nor is there a Hungarian diversion.
Assuming that there is no Hungarian operation and that sector plays out per OTL and 6th Panzer is sent to reinforce Operation Solstice after victory in the Ardennes with all the captured American goodies (entirely possible as even in defeat after a grinding month long campaign 6th Panzer was able to deploy to Hungary for Operation Southwind, which was launched about the same time as Solstice) and air units spared from Bodenplatte (unnecessary ITTL with the victory in the Ardennes) then the Soviets could be looking at the destruction of Zhukov's 1st Belorussian Front. Though it sounds fantastical having even 500 additional aircraft (half of Bodenplatte's strength) and another panzer army (which was vastly stronger even in January than the 11th SS panzer army employed IOTL) decked out with captured American equipment and supplies added in at the point that the Soviets were at their weakest after the Vistula-Oder operation could very well make that not only possible, but likely.

Details about the Soviet weakness here:
While the 1st and 2nd Belorussian Fronts were impressively large formations, the Soviet forces had also suffered serious losses in the Vistula-Oder Offensive. At the beginning of February 1945, the strength of rifle divisions in the 1st BRF averaged around 4,000 troops[12] and those of the 2nd BRF between 3,000 - 4,000.[13] Soviet army strength was further weakened by the need to besiege encircled groups of German soldiers (Festungen - German: "fortresses") in Elbing, Poznan, Deutsch-Krone, and Schneidemühl. Armored strength was also weakened by the recent offensive operations; the 2nd BRF fielded only 297 well-worn tanks early in February 1945.[13] During the period January 12 - February 3, 1945, the 1st BRF suffered 77,342 casualties (7.5% of its assigned strength) while during the East Prussian Offensive of January 13 - February 10, 1945, the 2nd BRF took 159,490 casualties (18% of assigned strength).[14] In the same periods, the 1st Belorussian and Ukrainian Fronts lost 1,267 armored fighting vehicles while the 2nd and 3rd Belorussian Fronts lost 3,525. Gun and mortar losses for the two groups of fronts were 374 and 1,644, respectively.[15] To compound their difficulties, the Soviets faced supply bottlenecks as well as increased German air activity, resulting in increased unit requests for anti-aircraft weapons.[16]

A map for reference:
Vistula-Oder-Offensive-end-map.jpg


If 6th Panzer is employed opposite the Soviet 33rd army it would easily smash through and absorb the bulk of Soviet attention and allow 11th Panzer to face much less resistance. Coupled with hundreds more aircraft in support a pincer move would likely work in pocketing the 1st Belorussian Front and relieve Poznan, cutting Soviet escape routes that aren't already interdicted by the extra air units. Not only that, but Vlassov's army would be involved and successful, which then could see the build up of an entire army under Vlassov using all the captured Soviet equipment, as there were several divisions being organized, but hampered by lack of equipment and political will to give them more due to lack of battlefield success.

If the offensive works and 1st BF is effectively destroyed, then the Soviets are going to have to pull back their lines pretty radically to close the massive gap between the 2nd BF and 1st UkF. In turn that removes massive pressure on the Germans and allows them to concentrate several armies as well as equip themselves with a bunch of Soviet gear and supplies to keep up the pressure. Konigsberg and what's left of East Prussia could be relatively easily relieved then, which massively screws up the Soviet offensive there, Breslau is going to be relieved in the Soviet retreat, which means logistically it would be entirely possible, given the new concentrations of German armies and Soviet weakness that after consolidation and with some time prepare a follow up offensive against the juncture of the 1st UkF and 2nd BF east of Poznan could well succeed even if the Soviets have time to bring up reserves. Again that is in the context of a major victory in the Ardennes and major Soviet weakness described above, plus of course their noted lack of reserves (even with remobilization of captured PoWs the Soviet army dropped in strength by 1 million men in the 4 months of combat in 1945; here losing the 1st BF with its equipment and the bulk of its assigned strength as of February of something like 900,000 men would completely exhaust the remaining Soviet replacement capabilities and force the commitment of their entire remaining strategic reserve of about 500,000 men).

1st BF cannot be recreated and Stalin is going to have to send any reserves (and then some) to Poland, which means the planned offensive in Hungary is massively scaled down or even cancelled altogether, which mean that front stagnates so no being rescued by a Soviet offensive breakthrough in Hungary/Slovakia/Austria in Spring.

If the offensive gives Vlassov's army the political juice to be built up and the victories ensure there is more than enough captured equipment and recruitable POWs to build up his forces we could see a massive turn in the course of the war and potential scenario for a negotiated peace deal. I know it sounds insane, but you have to consider that at the point everyone would think the war is nearly over the Wallies lose 800,000 men and 2 armies plus a large British corps in the Ardennes/Aachen area (they were insanely vulnerable to attack due to overconfidence and many mistakes) plus then the Soviets losing say 700,000 men and once of their most powerful army groups with all of its equipment while badly overextended in west Prussia in a matter of months it would be such a bad psychological shock and political nightmare that it very well could have been possible to see a deal.

For those questioning the ability of the German army in December 1944-February 1945 to pull this off the Wallies were extremely concerned historically during the breakthrough in the Ardennes and were actively discussing the reality of losing an entire army group as well as the American public demanding to quit the war rather than further mobilize to finish it out. HL has sources about the state of US public morale in late 1944; for the discussion among the top military leaders about the situation in the Ardennes Michael Beschloss' book "The Conquerors", which was the first to be able to use the Morgenthau diaries, has a chapter on this period and George Marshall even talking about his fears of what was happening.
 
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raharris1973

Well-known member
How is this mini-offensive in eastern Belgium different from the Battle of the Bulge? Is it focused north of the Bulge area, north of Luxembourg and the Ardennes? Why is this offensive projected to have a better outcome for the Axis than the Bulge did?
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
How is this mini-offensive in eastern Belgium different from the Battle of the Bulge? Is it focused north of the Bulge area, north of Luxembourg and the Ardennes? Why is this offensive projected to have a better outcome for the Axis than the Bulge did?
The BotB was an offensive through the Ardennes aimed at Antwerp. The 'small solution' offensive (a real plan by Rundstedt and Model as an alternative to Hitler's crazy offensive plan) was going to be a pincer move, the main thrust in the Ardennes, but staying east of the Meuse and turning north to Liege and Aachen immediately instead of advancing toward Namur and Huy further southwest. The northern pincer would be smaller (2 panzer, 2 infantry divisions in the first wave IIRC) out of the Roermond-Sittard area toward Maastricht. The reason that would have been so devastatingly successful is that it would have overrun both the 1st and 9th army HQs and all the army supply dumps as well as most of the corps level ones as well as their HQs. It would have also been aimed at very weak points in the Allied lines as well as avoiding the problem of the OTL BotB offensive, which was trying to cram too many units into too small of a space with too few bad roads.

That means it could have been launched earlier, which would in fact hit some American divisions before they could launch their own attacks, so they'd be at peak vulnerability and be unable to put up the stout defensive actions around Elsenborn Ridge that they were able to conduct IOTL. IOTL the offensive by the 78th and 2nd US divisions badly disrupted the German offensive and there is a very interesting argument made by a US army colonel that it inadvertently actually caused the Ardennes to fail before it even started. Due to the quicker build up due to not needing to wait on certain divisions and likely hitting the Allies at a time when they were out of position due to preparing for their own offensives the flanks would likely have collapsed if hit by the allotted panzer divisions in the first wave of the attack, much as Pieper's panzers overran the American positions as soon as committed due to sheer weight of combat power IOTL.

The northern area of the British XXX corps was also getting ready for an attack against the Roermond triangle (later launched in 1945 once the Bulge was dealt with) and were so badly overstretched (2 understrength divisions covering over 20 miles, one of which was an armored division that had been forced to dismount from its tanks so it could have enough infantry to hold villages, but not put out patrols to cover the gaps between them) due to trying to prepare for the offensive (two more divisions were in reserve and organizing for the offensive and were not at all ready to defend if attacked). The really bad part was Maastricht was less than 30km from the front lines, so if the Germans attacked they could literally overrun 9th army HQ and supply dumps in an hour after breaching the front line since there were no reserves between the dismounted armored division, XXX corps HQ, and 9th army HQ in Maastricht.

Had it gone off there would of course have been problems on the Germans side, but given how badly out of sorts the Allied forces were on the 12th-14th, which is entirely plausible period for the Germans to attack given the shorter build up time from not needing to wait for the 2nd wave of the offensive through the Ardennes to be in place since it would mostly be used as the northern pincer attacking at the same time as the Ardennes force, the sheer mass of the German offensive would simply plow through or around them. Elsenborn ridge defense wouldn't really be an option here without the Allied offensive in that area preempting the German offensive by several days as in OTL, instead the reserve would happen of the Germans catching the American divisions while they were still forming up, one of which had never been in combat before and did not perform all that well when attacking IOTL.
 

raharris1973

Well-known member
OK - so a German 'small solution' offensive in Belgium spoils the western allied situation and improves the German situation, and allows the Germans to make similarly successful moves in the east in Hungary.

This lets the Germans hold out until spring and summer 1945 when reorganized and regrouped western and Soviet forces converge on them and crush them by weight of sheer numbers by the beginning of August (like in the OP).

I assume even if some Germans are holding out a few weeks later into August, even after the availability of the atomic bomb, the Nazi perimeter is breached so bad there are no longer any decisive targets worth atomic bombing left.

So the atomic bombs are dropped on Japanese targets on 6 and 9 August respectively. What happens to the Pacific War endgame, as I asked about in the OP?

Would the western allied setback in Belgium, winter of 1944, have forestalled somehow American scheduled plans to take Iwo Jima and Okinawa in 1945?
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
OK - so a German 'small solution' offensive in Belgium spoils the western allied situation and improves the German situation, and allows the Germans to make similarly successful moves in the east in Hungary.
If that happens the war is either going to be over by August or going well beyond August as the only active front will be the Polish-Oder one, but now the Germans can concentrate their reserves there.

This lets the Germans hold out until spring and summer 1945 when reorganized and regrouped western and Soviet forces converge on them and crush them by weight of sheer numbers by the beginning of August (like in the OP).
It will take a LOT longer for the Wallies to recover in the scenario I laid out, as the 90 division gamble is in play and the US just lost 16 of their divisions plus had several more smashed when they already had a replacement crisis in November. The Wallies could only undertake minor offensives in the aftermath of that, if for no other reason than the supply situation got massively worse as Liege was the main supply dump on the continent for the Americas, as Antwerp was too damaged and too dangerous to leave supplies there (heavy target of V-weapon fire) so it was moved inland behind the 12th army group.

Similarly if the Soviets lose an entire Front in Hungary and are left with the prospect of the Hungarian theater collapsing it is seriously going to distort their offensive plans in Poland even if successful in the Vistula-Oder operation.

So a successful 'small' Ardennes offensive is probably not the right POD for your OP scenario due to how much damage it would inflict on the Allies and the resulting political fall out.

I assume even if some Germans are holding out a few weeks later into August, even after the availability of the atomic bomb, the Nazi perimeter is breached so bad there are no longer any decisive targets worth atomic bombing left.
FDR still ordered nukes to be used. Depending on the specifics of where the front is they might target a smaller city.

So the atomic bombs are dropped on Japanese targets on 6 and 9 August respectively. What happens to the Pacific War endgame, as I asked about in the OP?
That stays the same.

Would the western allied setback in Belgium, winter of 1944, have forestalled somehow American scheduled plans to take Iwo Jima and Okinawa in 1945?
Nope, shouldn't change a thing there even if the US were to cut a deal in Europe. Other than perhaps major civil unrest happens in the US.
 

raharris1973

Well-known member
You’re saying the American actions towards the Pacific, both conventional an atomic, all stay the same- got it.

what about Soviet actions towards Japan? All stay the same, or cancelled/postponed?

What aboutJapan surrender decision, the same time as OTL, or delayed? (Thinking delay might happen especially if Soviets delay)
 

ATP

Well-known member
What is the latest plausible PoD that can keep the European Axis fighting until 1 August, 1945?

Could a divergence that causes the European Axis (likely just Nazi Germany) to hold out this many months longer happen, and yet *not* have 'knock-on' or butterfly effects delaying the timetable of the Manhattan project or the captures of Okinawa and Iwo Jima in the Pacific?

Assuming the Nazis capitulate/get completely overrun by 1 August, 1945, and the Japanese get hit by atomic bombs on 6 and 9 August, respectively, when do the Japanese agree to capitulate?

Do they wait until being hit by one or more additional atomic bombs before capitulating? How many days/weeks before additional bombs are used? Or do the Japanese not capitulate until the Soviets also declare war and attack, whether that comes in a week or two, or a month or two?

Without the Soviets having three months for a special build-up in the Far East, and to transfer units, supplies and commanders from the ETO, but only troops on hand in Kamchatka, northern Sakhalin, and the Far East, can the Soviets launch a successful immediate offensive against the Japanese in a matter of days similar to OTL's schedule August 8th or within a week after?

I would assume no matter what, the Japanese, except in Sakhalin maybe, would be in no position to counter-attack on the Soviets at the operational level and go into Soviet territory, but how much less successul, in terms of ground Japanese gained and forces destroyed would a rushed, scratch Soviet offensive be, compared to OTL's massively overprepared August Storm?

Meanwhile, how many more KIA would the Allies east and west suffer in the 3 months longer European war? How many more Germans (& people in Germany) killed by bombing, and how many more Slavic, Gypsy and Jewish Holocaust victims?

Only 3 months later ? do not attack allies in 1944,and soviets in hungary in 1945.Use all those units to defend.You would have your 3 months,probably longer.
What soviets would take from Japan in this scenario? most of Manchuria,not even part of Korea.No Korea war,then,or...one started by Mao? but would he win,if Chang take part of Manchuria?
 

raharris1973

Well-known member
Only 3 months later ? do not attack allies in 1944,and soviets in hungary in 1945.Use all those units to defend.You would have your 3 months,probably longer.
What soviets would take from Japan in this scenario? most of Manchuria,not even part of Korea.No Korea war,then,or...one started by Mao? but would he win,if Chang take part of Manchuria?

The Soviets will have time to cross the Manchurian border before the Japanese surrender everything to the Americans?

Will the Soviets have time to invade the Kurils and southern Sakhalin island before the Japanese surrender everything to the Americans?
 

ATP

Well-known member
The Soviets will have time to cross the Manchurian border before the Japanese surrender everything to the Americans?

Will the Soviets have time to invade the Kurils and southern Sakhalin island before the Japanese surrender everything to the Americans?

Manchuria - maybe.Kurils - no,their fleet was shitty.If they do not take part of Manchuria,Chang would take everything.Mao was practically supported by both USA and soviets till 1946,so he would survive - but we have 2 chineese states now.
No Korean war,one normal Korea.

In Europe - part of Hungary and Yugoslavia could be free,too late for others.

All german need was not attack with their reserves in 1944 and 1945,but use them to fighting retreat.You could thank Hitler for that.
 

raharris1973

Well-known member
It was Rundstedt and Model's idea, I just suggested what if it had happened instead. It most certainly would work for this given that if it worked the Wallied armies would be crippled and wouldn't be able to take a significant offensive action for at least 6 months as a result and free up at least 1 panzer army for use in the East, which when coupled with an idea @History Learner has suggested about a counter offensive would seriously cripple Soviet forces as well. In victory in the west with the 'Small Solution' offensive the huge amounts of equipment, fuel, and supplies captured and available to the Germans at a crucial time would dramatically enhance their fighting capabilities over what they were able to achieve IOTL in 1945 with all the massive fuel, equipment, and other supply shortages.

Depending on how quickly the entire campaign could be conducted the 6th Panzer army might even end up in Hungary in January for the 3rd offensive to relieve Budapest. If that happens then rather than redeploying the IV SS Panzer Corps it stays in place, continues it's operations, which were actually starting to work during the 2nd offensive but IOTL were called off by Hitler so they could deploy somewhere else (a decision highly criticized by the troops on the ground), and the 6th Panzer army then attacks in the place where the IV SS was sent IOTL, which effectively would mean the majority of the 3rd Ukrainian Front would be destroyed, Budapest relieved, the Danube recovered as a defense line, and a heap of equipment and supplies captured by the Germans and Hungarians which would be extremely useful going forward; it also likely means the Soviets had to deploy substantial reserves to the region to prevent a rout, which weakens the push in Poland.

That alone massively changes the character of the conflict in the Balkans/Danube area and allows the Germans to focus the bulk of their strength against the Soviets in Poland since the Danube flank and western border are effectively secured until at least Summer. Even with the major victory on the Vistula in January that leaves the Soviet highly vulnerable to a major counterattack per HL's scenario.

Of course in his scenario there is no mention of a victory in the Ardennes nor is there a Hungarian diversion.
Assuming that there is no Hungarian operation and that sector plays out per OTL and 6th Panzer is sent to reinforce Operation Solstice after victory in the Ardennes with all the captured American goodies (entirely possible as even in defeat after a grinding month long campaign 6th Panzer was able to deploy to Hungary for Operation Southwind, which was launched about the same time as Solstice) and air units spared from Bodenplatte (unnecessary ITTL with the victory in the Ardennes) then the Soviets could be looking at the destruction of Zhukov's 1st Belorussian Front. Though it sounds fantastical having even 500 additional aircraft (half of Bodenplatte's strength) and another panzer army (which was vastly stronger even in January than the 11th SS panzer army employed IOTL) decked out with captured American equipment and supplies added in at the point that the Soviets were at their weakest after the Vistula-Oder operation could very well make that not only possible, but likely.

Details about the Soviet weakness here:


A map for reference:
Vistula-Oder-Offensive-end-map.jpg


If 6th Panzer is employed opposite the Soviet 33rd army it would easily smash through and absorb the bulk of Soviet attention and allow 11th Panzer to face much less resistance. Coupled with hundreds more aircraft in support a pincer move would likely work in pocketing the 1st Belorussian Front and relieve Poznan, cutting Soviet escape routes that aren't already interdicted by the extra air units. Not only that, but Vlassov's army would be involved and successful, which then could see the build up of an entire army under Vlassov using all the captured Soviet equipment, as there were several divisions being organized, but hampered by lack of equipment and political will to give them more due to lack of battlefield success.

If the offensive works and 1st BF is effectively destroyed, then the Soviets are going to have to pull back their lines pretty radically to close the massive gap between the 2nd BF and 1st UkF. In turn that removes massive pressure on the Germans and allows them to concentrate several armies as well as equip themselves with a bunch of Soviet gear and supplies to keep up the pressure. Konigsberg and what's left of East Prussia could be relatively easily relieved then, which massively screws up the Soviet offensive there, Breslau is going to be relieved in the Soviet retreat, which means logistically it would be entirely possible, given the new concentrations of German armies and Soviet weakness that after consolidation and with some time prepare a follow up offensive against the juncture of the 1st UkF and 2nd BF east of Poznan could well succeed even if the Soviets have time to bring up reserves. Again that is in the context of a major victory in the Ardennes and major Soviet weakness described above, plus of course their noted lack of reserves (even with remobilization of captured PoWs the Soviet army dropped in strength by 1 million men in the 4 months of combat in 1945; here losing the 1st BF with its equipment and the bulk of its assigned strength as of February of something like 900,000 men would completely exhaust the remaining Soviet replacement capabilities and force the commitment of their entire remaining strategic reserve of about 500,000 men).

1st BF cannot be recreated and Stalin is going to have to send any reserves (and then some) to Poland, which means the planned offensive in Hungary is massively scaled down or even cancelled altogether, which mean that front stagnates so no being rescued by a Soviet offensive breakthrough in Hungary/Slovakia/Austria in Spring.

If the offensive gives Vlassov's army the political juice to be built up and the victories ensure there is more than enough captured equipment and recruitable POWs to build up his forces we could see a massive turn in the course of the war and potential scenario for a negotiated peace deal. I know it sounds insane, but you have to consider that at the point everyone would think the war is nearly over the Wallies lose 800,000 men and 2 armies plus a large British corps in the Ardennes/Aachen area (they were insanely vulnerable to attack due to overconfidence and many mistakes) plus then the Soviets losing say 700,000 men and once of their most powerful army groups with all of its equipment while badly overextended in west Prussia in a matter of months it would be such a bad psychological shock and political nightmare that it very well could have been possible to see a deal.

For those questioning the ability of the German army in December 1944-February 1945 to pull this off the Wallies were extremely concerned historically during the breakthrough in the Ardennes and were actively discussing the reality of losing an entire army group as well as the American public demanding to quit the war rather than further mobilize to finish it out. HL has sources about the state of US public morale in late 1944; for the discussion among the top military leaders about the situation in the Ardennes Michael Beschloss' book "The Conquerors", which was the first to be able to use the Morgenthau diaries, has a chapter on this period and George Marshall even talking about his fears of what was happening.

for the Americans, why quit the war rather than hold on, move in reinforcements and especially build up an atomic bomb stockpile and keep hitting Germany with that into late 1945 and 1946?

before you talk about social unrest or anti war movements, do you know how long they take to build up steam and start moving political leaders and toppling governments, especially governments with strictly scheduled elections? A long time- longer than the cities of Germany will have on this earth and longer than the POL and ammo of the German army will last.
 
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ATP

Well-known member
for the Americans, why quit the war rather than hold on, move in reinforcements and especially build up an atomic bomb stockpile and keep hitting Germany with that into late 1945 and 1946?

before you talk about social unrest or anti war movements, do you know how long they take to build up steam and start moving political leaders and toppling governments, especially governments with strictly scheduled elections? A long time- longer than the cities of Germany will have on this earth and longer than the POL and ammo of the German army will last.

Another problem - Hitler.Sralin wonted peace from 1941 till at least 1942,but Hitler always wonted too much.You must kill him.
Second - USA democrat elites was at least partially controlled by soviets,as long as they wonted war,there would be no peace.
You need to wait for 1948 elections - by that time,ruins of german cities woud glow in night.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
Only 3 months later ? do not attack allies in 1944,and soviets in hungary in 1945.Use all those units to defend.You would have your 3 months,probably longer.
Maybe. The German front was close to collapse in December 1944 in the West, so without attacking the Allies easily take the Ruhr and jump the Rhine before February. Which means Germany falls in May, just to the Wallies instead.
Even with a major offensive in Hungary on January 1st that smashes the Soviets and leaves IV SS panzer corps in place around Warsaw seriously disjoining Zhukov's offensive in January, all that does is slow the Soviets, but means the west falls apart that much quicker. That would have been the smarter play for Germany for the post-war, but Hitler was looking for a war winning offensive, not one that only made it easier on the Wallies instead of the Soviets.

for the Americans, why quit the war rather than hold on, move in reinforcements and especially build up an atomic bomb stockpile and keep hitting Germany with that into late 1945 and 1946?
Public pressure, as the American public was sick of the war and demanding increased civilian production as early as November 1944; there is no way they would accept deeper mobilization and more cuts to civilian production. There is no way to rebuild the necessary number of divisions necessary to actually invade Germany and provide sufficient replacements without mobilizing another 4 million previously 4F Americans over 30 (and remove them from industry, which would require massive cuts to both military production AND civilian production) according to George Marshall when discussing options in case of a German victory in the Ardennes. This is in Beschloss's "Conquerors".

No one knew of the A-bomb other than a very select group at the very top, not even Truman. Plus everyone understood that Stalin would simply take everything and that isn't what the US or UK wanted. Churchill might even force a deal out of fear of a Soviet conquest of Europe if they took all of Central Europe.

before you talk about social unrest or anti war movements, do you know how long they take to build up steam and start moving political leaders and toppling governments, especially governments with strictly scheduled elections? A long time- longer than the cities of Germany will have on this earth and longer than the POL and ammo of the German army will last.
That had already started. The public unrest was quite bad by late 1944 as it was and there were a series of strikes that were only getting worse and culminated in a virtual general strike in American in 1945:
Detroit, the center of U.S. defense production, was likewise the center of the strike movement. Detroit papers had carried reports on a dozen strikes a week on the average for the first three months of 1944. At Ford, two or three a week was common. Occasionally they became violent. For example, a crowd of workers overpowered a plant protection man and demolished the office and records of a labor relations officer for whom they were searching
...
During the forty-four months from Pearl Harbor to V-J Day, there were 14,471 strikes involving 6,774,000 strikers: more than during any period of comparable length in United States history.29 In 1944 alone, 369,000 steel and iron workers, 389,000 auto workers, 363,000 other transportation equipment workers, and 278,000 miners were involved in strikes.30

This could very well start during the war and shut down the entire US war effort:
In the year after V-J Day, more than five million American workers were involved in strikes, which lasted on average four times longer than those during the war.[2] They were the largest strikes in American labor history.[3][4]

Contrary to what propaganda about this period in the US claims the war period wasn't one of harmony and public support for everything that was going on in government and the country and even with things as bad as they were during the war, which did impact war production considerably, the the post-war pent up frustration came out in the huge strikes of 1945-46. BTW the US was already suffering equipment and supply shortages due to strikes and transportation issues both in Europe and the US. So the US was getting into some real trouble historically by the time of the Battle of the Bulge and even US army post-war publications acknowledge that the 90 division gamble very nearly turned into an utter disaster during the Bulge since our last reserves were committed and were just barely enough to stop the Germans...due to Hitler's flawed strategy. It was the last throw of the dice for Germany, but had that throw worked out due to more realistic goals the US army would have effectively been defeated and with it would come political defeat.

Time, however, was a waning asset, especially to Marshall, who would later say that American "political and economic institutions melted out from under us [the U.S. military]". The Office of War Mobilization and Reconversion told the JCS what magazines and newspapers had been printing since late 1944: there was overwhelming public pressure to increase production of consumer goods. I am "afraid of unrest in the country," said Director Fred Vinson. I have never seen "the people in their present frame of mind." Aside from reports about the "national end-of-the-war psychology among [the] citizens" of the United States, the JCS heard from its own military intelligence community. Their best estimate was that total victory through encirclement, blockade, and bombardment might well take "a great many years."5

Another problem - Hitler.Sralin wonted peace from 1941 till at least 1942,but Hitler always wonted too much.You must kill him.
Second - USA democrat elites was at least partially controlled by soviets,as long as they wonted war,there would be no peace.
You need to wait for 1948 elections - by that time,ruins of german cities woud glow in night.
What is your source on that? I haven't been able to find any reliable sources about any real efforts that was substantial before 1943.
 
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sillygoose

Well-known member
How about this as a POD:
Panzerfausts are developed at least 12 months earlier. That gives time for the PzF 250 to enter service, which was equivalent to the RPG-2, which many claim was effectively a rip off of the German experimental design IOTL.
The reason it would matter ITTL would be the cumulative impact of infantry being able to deal with tanks more easily and causing extra attrition on Allied armor, which was their big offensive advantage by 1943 due to sheer mass. Obviously on its own it wouldn't change much or a single significant battle, but the extra attrition would add up and wear down the Allies quicker, which then over the course of an extra 12 months of production and use, especially starting in 1942 rather than 1943, would delay Allied victory by 3 months and make it significantly more costly. Virtuous circle for the Axis, vicious for the Allies.

This link gives the timeline of introduction of each time and production:
Assuming a 12 month head start that would put introduction at August 1942, full production (400k units per month) of the PzF 60 as September 1943 (very important for the fighting in the East and Italy), PzF 100 production ramping up in November 1943 (again important in the campaigns of late 1943-early 1944 and very important in Normandy), introduction of the PzF 150 (a major redesign and improvement) in March 1944 (again very important for Normandy and the Eastern Front, if not even Italy and the fighting around Anzio and the defensive line south of Rome), and the PzF 250 starting in September 1944, which was basically the RPG-2 in terms of performance.

Given the economies of scale of production of the weapon they could very well have double the number produced ITTL if production is set up earlier and of course the much better performing later models in time for the big battles of 1944, when IOTL only the weaker early models were just starting to get significant production. IOTL Normandy for instance only saw the Faustpatrone and PzF 30 used in significant numbers and even those were relatively minor but still caused the Allies substantial headache; ITTL they'd have easily double the numbers employed IOTL and the much longer range and more powerful PzF 100 and 150 in widespread use. Same applies to the heavy fighting in Ukraine and Belarus in 1944 where infantry IOTL were often just overrun by tanks as the early Panzerfaust models were still only in minor production by January 1944 and not widely issued (low 10s of thousands IIRC, roughly 10% of the September 1944 numbers); ITTL they'd have hundreds of thousands issued every month as of September 1943, so by January 1944 production would easily be 600k per month, more than 10x what it was IOTL. That would has a substantial impact of Soviet tank losses and offensive momentum in the extremely critical period of early 1944:

Clearly not going to change the outcome of anything, but cumulative attrition and reduced momentum would have a large impact over the course of an additional 12 months of use. How might campaigns like Normandy be impacted with 10x more Panzerfausts being issued with at least double the range and penetration power of the OTL models? Or for that matter Bagration?

Just from OTL studies about Wallied tank losses:
Panzerfausts and Panzershrecks were responsible for around 13% of tank losses in ETO almost as much as Pz IVs, Panthers, and Tigers combined. Hollow charge weapons in the ETO usually dealt losses at a range of 50 yards(46 m). A report from the 736th Tank Battalion noted that Hollow Charge weapons were used in German Towns and roadblocks and were used to disable tanks, rarely actually destroying the vehicle. When the tankers existed the immobile tank they were gun downed by enemy small arms, American tankers didn’t seem to have adequate training in this regard. 51% of hollow charge rounds hit from the side, 31% from the front, 9.5 % from the rear, and 8.5% from above.

As it was when Panzerfausts were at their peak production and battlefield usage they caused massive losses even in the hands of the Volkssturm:
  • 1,997 tanks and SPGs destroyed[11]

Though it is very hard to calculate what increased panzerfaust usage would mean in terms of tank losses if we conservatively assume even a doubling of losses to panzerfausts were are looking at at least 750 more US tank losses in Europe, which is pretty huge when you consider the US was running out of tanks by the Battle of the Bugle and had to 'borrow' about 350 from the British, which had a reserve of about 1000 nationally. When you factor in British and other smaller allied nation AFV losses as well then you're looking at that entire British reserve evaporate and the US still being short as well, which means the PBIs have to carry the burden of combat all that much more with heavier losses.

Urban combat wasn't that much different from Bocage fighting or fighting in forests in Belarus in terms of range and cover, though of course being able to fire from elevated positions were tougher.

This POD would ensure the Soviets really aren't able to jump into the war in Asia until 1946, since they couldn't start moving East until the war with Germany was complete and heavier losses, especially in armor, would have a rather serious impact on their ability quickly turn around for another campaign. So the delay would mean winter then delays their ability to start attacking until Spring 1946.

I'll leave it up to those with more knowledge of the Pacific/Asian Theater to determine the impact on the war there.

It is hard to say what the impact would be on the campaigns of 1944, but an additional 3 months of combat for the Wallies and a worse Normandy would impose seriously heavy losses given the casualty rates the US was taking towards the end end of the war. In Europe in March and April 1945 the US was taking casualties as heavy as the worst months of Normandy:

November 1944-January 1945 was the worst period of the entire war in any theater for the US as well.
If you have 3 more months like that you'll definitely see more racial integration of the US army, as casualties and inability of the US replacement system to cope forced the first integration IOTL:

Assuming heavier losses overall plus several more months of fighting the US army alone could suffer some additional 200-250,000 casualties in Europe (basically double Normandy's casualties for the US and a ~30% increase in overall casualties in the European war), which is huge when you consider that the majority of losses hit the infantry (about 70% of casualties) and tankers the hardest. That would force major comb-outs of non-combat units and really unprepared service troops used as infantry and tankers, which would jack up losses even more since undertrained, inexperienced replacements suffered exceptionally badly from the US WW2 style replacement system. Britain would be in a really bad place considering that by 1944 they were disbanding divisions to keep the others up to strength and cutting the number of companies per battalion as well. The Canadians only using volunteers in Europe meant that they too were falling apart by late 1944 since they had hit peak manpower and were declining badly due to casualties.

So if the war goes into August 1945 the Wallies are really going to be exhausted with unknown effects on the political situation in Britain and the US and who knows what sort of revenge impulse after the war. Occupation is going to be quite hard, especially with the American soldiers demanding to go home ASAP when the war ended.

On the Soviet side they too would be quite a bit more exhausted, as 1945 was exceptionally brutal for them. Per Krivosheev, who is said to have understated casualties due to his statistical methods of calculating losses, nearly 3 million casualties in 4 months of fighting, with 2.1 million losses in the 1st quarter of 1945 and another 861,000 just in April-May 1945. So assuming that they have an extra quarter of fighting in 1945 even without assuming heavier losses in earlier months the Soviets take another 2.1 million casualties ITTL. That is going to make it exceedingly difficult to then shift to fight in Asia given that their ability to occupy Europe is going to be heavily impacted by those extra casualties.

I wonder if this might then result in avoiding the Cold War given how much more exhausted the Allies would be at the end. Assuming heavier losses for the Soviets for the 12 months of extra panzerfaust usage/production they might actually collapse sooner due to the crippling manpower losses, which IOTL caused pretty substantial problems for them post-war as it was.
 
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ATP

Well-known member
Maybe. The German front was close to collapse in December 1944 in the West, so without attacking the Allies easily take the Ruhr and jump the Rhine before February. Which means Germany falls in May, just to the Wallies instead.
Even with a major offensive in Hungary on January 1st that smashes the Soviets and leaves IV SS panzer corps in place around Warsaw seriously disjoining Zhukov's offensive in January, all that does is slow the Soviets, but means the west falls apart that much quicker. That would have been the smarter play for Germany for the post-war, but Hitler was looking for a war winning offensive, not one that only made it easier on the Wallies instead of the Soviets.


Public pressure, as the American public was sick of the war and demanding increased civilian production as early as November 1944; there is no way they would accept deeper mobilization and more cuts to civilian production. There is no way to rebuild the necessary number of divisions necessary to actually invade Germany and provide sufficient replacements without mobilizing another 4 million previously 4F Americans over 30 (and remove them from industry, which would require massive cuts to both military production AND civilian production) according to George Marshall when discussing options in case of a German victory in the Ardennes. This is in Beschloss's "Conquerors".

No one knew of the A-bomb other than a very select group at the very top, not even Truman. Plus everyone understood that Stalin would simply take everything and that isn't what the US or UK wanted. Churchill might even force a deal out of fear of a Soviet conquest of Europe if they took all of Central Europe.


That had already started. The public unrest was quite bad by late 1944 as it was and there were a series of strikes that were only getting worse and culminated in a virtual general strike in American in 1945:


This could very well start during the war and shut down the entire US war effort:


Contrary to what propaganda about this period in the US claims the war period wasn't one of harmony and public support for everything that was going on in government and the country and even with things as bad as they were during the war, which did impact war production considerably, the the post-war pent up frustration came out in the huge strikes of 1945-46. BTW the US was already suffering equipment and supply shortages due to strikes and transportation issues both in Europe and the US. So the US was getting into some real trouble historically by the time of the Battle of the Bulge and even US army post-war publications acknowledge that the 90 division gamble very nearly turned into an utter disaster during the Bulge since our last reserves were committed and were just barely enough to stop the Germans...due to Hitler's flawed strategy. It was the last throw of the dice for Germany, but had that throw worked out due to more realistic goals the US army would have effectively been defeated and with it would come political defeat.




What is your source on that? I haven't been able to find any reliable sources about any real efforts that was substantial before 1943.

Soviet peace talks - Mark Sołonin,one of few honest russians writing about WW2.In 1941 Sralin was giving Ukraine and Belarus,in 1942 less,but Hitler always wonted more.
 

raharris1973

Well-known member
How about another PoD if the better Bulge idea or Panzerfaust ideas overshoot the mark:

How much resistance time could the the Germans buy themselves if they never lose contact with the Courland pocket and their troops retreat instead of getting trapped?

How much resistance time do the Germans buy themselves if they pull back to the Alps in Italy after the Anvil landings are done in August 1944, and those troops can be available for eastern and western defenses as well as Alpine?

Finally, can the Germans buy any resistance time by pulling troops back in from Norway from late 1944 on?
 

raharris1973

Well-known member
So if the war goes into August 1945 the Wallies are really going to be exhausted with unknown effects on the political situation in Britain and the US and who knows what sort of revenge impulse after the war. Occupation is going to be quite hard, especially with the American soldiers demanding to go home ASAP when the war ended.

On the Soviet side they too would be quite a bit more exhausted, as 1945 was exceptionally brutal for them. Per Krivosheev, who is said to have understated casualties due to his statistical methods of calculating losses, nearly 3 million casualties in 4 months of fighting, with 2.1 million losses in the 1st quarter of 1945 and another 861,000 just in April-May 1945. So assuming that they have an extra quarter of fighting in 1945 even without assuming heavier losses in earlier months the Soviets take another 2.1 million casualties ITTL. That is going to make it exceedingly difficult to then shift to fight in Asia given that their ability to occupy Europe is going to be heavily impacted by those extra casualties.

Uh-oh, sounds like you’ve almost talked yourself into saying this panzerfaust based scenario will force the allies into making a compromise peace with Germany, like you said in your better Bulge scenario.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
Uh-oh, sounds like you’ve almost talked yourself into saying this panzerfaust based scenario will force the allies into making a compromise peace with Germany, like you said in your better Bulge scenario.
Doubtful given that it won't change enough quickly enough to cause the Allies to seek peace short of total victory. But it will be an exhausting victory and may well cause a different post-war world. Much like how the war ending 3 months early would likely change the post-war situation considerably.

How about another PoD if the better Bulge idea or Panzerfaust ideas overshoot the mark:

How much resistance time could the the Germans buy themselves if they never lose contact with the Courland pocket and their troops retreat instead of getting trapped?
Good question. That might also result in an overshooting of the mark as well given that retreating with the army group intact and concentrated with the other army groups on the German border would make the eastern frontier of Germany very difficult to crack seeing as how AG-North had the highest concentration of 1941 veterans of any of them due to lower casualties over the course of the war (part of the reason they were able to defeat all 6 major offensives to destroy the pocket and they were the last significant force to surrender after Germany did). The Soviets can't apply their full strength the same way against a concentrated force in Prussia/along the Vistula due to the rail logistics and more constrained frontier. There is a reason by the generals were begging Hitler to allow AG-North to either retreat or evacuate repeatedly throughout the war.

How much resistance time do the Germans buy themselves if they pull back to the Alps in Italy after the Anvil landings are done in August 1944, and those troops can be available for eastern and western defenses as well as Alpine?
Not enough to really matter since they would need to retain most forces still in Italy and it also poses the problem of letting Allied airpower project further north sooner. We might end up seeing the Spring 1945 collapse in late 1944 ITTL.

Finally, can the Germans buy any resistance time by pulling troops back in from Norway from late 1944 on?
They did actually do that to some degree. Problem is if they totally retreated out of Norway the Allies would land there, cut off Swedish iron supplies, and perhaps even bring Sweden into the war via pressure they could exert via their new Norwegian bases. Plus they could cut off Uboats from leaving Germany, set up bomber and fighter bases to hit Germany even harder from a new angle, etc.

Arguably though had they instead of Nordwind (and pulling back out of Colmar) used the divisions they pulled out of Norway in Hungary they might have had more success in January attacking there, which if it allows them to break the siege of Budapest would cause all sorts of knock on effects, since it would derail the Soviet Spring offensive against Czechoslovakia and Austria as well as keep a production/oil zone outside of the worst of the bombing.

Soviet peace talks - Mark Sołonin,one of few honest russians writing about WW2.In 1941 Sralin was giving Ukraine and Belarus,in 1942 less,but Hitler always wonted more.
Do you have an article link or book title in which he presents the documentary evidence of such peace negotiations? I'm not finding any such things on a quick google search, other than a discussion that says Solonin says there is no evidence that is reliable on the subject:
 
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sillygoose

Well-known member
Ok, how about this technical what if- the PAW 600 enters service in January 1944:
Followed later in the year by the PAW 1000:

Much cheaper and easier to make anti-tank with the punch to knock out any Allied tank; it also combines the function and role of the regimental AT guns and infantry guns into a single cheaper unit, so not only do they save on production costs by having a single weapon system (one better at knocking out tanks too), but they save on manpower since one weapon can do double duty. Plus it is easier to move due to the low weight, which should reduce combat losses, though with the inexpensive construction even if lost it will hurt a lot less than a PAK40 being left behind. IIRC these cost 1/3rd the price of a PAK40 75mm AT gun and about the same ratio of materials, but requiring less of the more rare non-ferrous metals. The ammo is cheaper too and IIRC same with the propellants.

Combat performance, though examples are limited, were apparently decent:
The weapon was used near the River Aller on 14 April 1945, as described in the following account by the official history of 15th/19th The King's Royal Hussars by Major G Courage 15/19H, who was with the regiment on the day.

"The enemy resistance had been determined and tough, only equalled by that met in the Rhineland fighting. The Marines had used their SA weapons and bazookas with skill and they had been well backed up by the large number of guns sited in support of them. Their 88-mm guns were well sited and difficult to spot in the thick country which was admirably suited to defence. The one which had given the most trouble was afterwards found to be well dug in and almost impossible of detection from the A or C Squadron positions. We found too that the first guns which had been met were 75-mm bored out to 80-mm and firing a hollow charge projectile through a smooth bore.

This was a new weapon and, although it was not thought to be effective over about five hundred yards, it was an interesting example of German improvisation."

Plus the PAW 1000 could be used in the Hetzer tank destroyer and assault guns to allow them to be able to destroy even the heaviest enemy tanks, be cheaper, lighter, and harder to spot due to no flash signature. For the StuGs instead of having the 75mm gun and a 105mm howitzer version (StuH 42) they could have a single weapon instead for double duty. Similarly a self propelled AT gun wouldn't be that hard to make due to the lightness, which would allow for long barrel versions with high velocity:

There appears to have been a very streamlined hollow charge shell development for the 105mm version that was sub-caliber with a discarding sabot (much easier to design for a smoothbore barrel), which would replicate the muzzle velocity of the long barrel (L71) 75mm and 88mm cannons, as well as Cold War smooth bore HEAT shells without any change to the existing weapon. So not only does it allow for lighter, less complex cannons, but increases armor penetration even if long range accuracy suffers somewhat (not that long range kills were anything but rare even with more accurate cannons).

Production takes a while to ramp up due to late introduction (11 months earlier than OTL though), which mutes its potential impact. Heavier Allied AT losses due to a bunch of effective, relatively light weight, and hard to spot cannons, but not enough to do more than delay the end by 3 months. Allied casualties are heavier, though somewhat less than I wrote above for a 3 month longer war and heavier losses in 1944-45 since these weapons are introduced later and there are not nearly as many of them, but the Axis still lose. Perhaps the post-war borders are different.

Gives Truman more time as president to learn the job and perhaps this prevents Yalta and delays Soviet entry into the Asian war. Analysis is similar to the situation in 1945 for the early Panzerfaust.
 
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