WI Prussia were broken up after WWI

raharris1973

Well-known member
What if the state of Prussia in Germany were broken up after WWI?

This is presuming that WWI is ended by the same armistice as OTL, and Germany is only occupied to the same extent it was in OTL, up to the Rhine and over some bridgeheads.

If there had been an Entente demand to break up the state of Prussia (under the theory of breaking up its unhealthy dominance of Germany), but not the breakage of those parts away from Germany itself, would or could the Germans have willingly complied?

While the state of Prussia had existed in its current shape for 53 years (since 1866), not everything was necessarily rosy between all regions.
Of the states abolished and subsumed into Prussia in 1866, at least Hanover still had some nontrivial regionalist sentiment.
Even within pre-1866 Prussia, there could be natural regional differences along axes of religion (Catholic versus Protestant), ideology (Liberal or Socialist versus Conservative) and economic (urban and industrial versus rural and agrarian) leading to preferences for the Rhineland and Westphalia to be separate states from Prussia within Germany.

It might be overboard to roll things all the way back to 1815, and hand Prussian Saxony back to Saxony, or not.

Or, even if there had not been an Entente demand, might there have been indigenous demands for some Prussian break-up.

Regardless of how it comes about, suppose this Prussian break-up happens. Does it have the anticipated anti-militarist, anti-conservative effect on Weimar politics? Perhaps not. My understanding is that the Prussian state government was one of the last bulwarks of resistance to Nazi rule after smaller, more rural states fell earlier into exclusively Nazi hands.

Your thought?
 

bintananth

behind a desk
If the parts of Germany that were part of the United Kingdom (i.e.: Hannover) never got split from the United Kingdom due to "only boys can inherit crowns" most of the continental wars Europe had in the past wouldn't have happened.

James I/VI got England on top of Scotland because he was the most senior relative Queen Elizabeth I had despite his great-aunt (the aforementioned Queen) beheading his mother: Mary Queen of Scots.
 

Free-Stater 101

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If the parts of Germany that were part of the United Kingdom (i.e.: Hannover) never got split from the United Kingdom due to "only boys can inherit crowns" most of the continental wars Europe had in the past wouldn't have happened.

James I/VI got England on top of Scotland because he was the most senior relative Queen Elizabeth I had despite his great-aunt (the aforementioned Queen) beheading his mother: Mary Queen of Scots.
What does that have to do with Prussian dismemberment after 1919?
 

Buba

A total creep
There was such an idea in Germany. With a map even - which I have on my HDD somewhere ...

Would make any coup more difficult. In OTL once the NSDAP took Prussia it was game over, as that means 2/3rds of the country. The map (which is on the web somewhere) split the country into 12-16 entities with comprable potential.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
Impossible without occupying the entire country and no one had the stomach for that. You'd need Russia still on the side of the Allies and able to handle the occupation for that to be viable. They couldn't even help Poland take all of Prussia/Silesia that they wanted as it was. Plus if they did try that when the Soviets marched into Poland the Poles might well not even be able to stop them if they are ultimately too focused on holding Prussia.
 

Buba

A total creep
Found it!!!!111
733px-Deutsches_Reich_Preuss.svg.png
 

stevep

Well-known member
According to Tooze's "The Deluge" Konrad Adenauer, who was Mayor of Cologne at that time argued for the Prussian Rhineland to be separated from Prussia, in part because of its different culture and economic system. - The wiki article on him, see Konrad_Adenauer-Leader_in_Cologne, mentions this although it argues this was seen largely as a way of preventing France from annexing the region. The idea was opposed - obviously - by the Prussian government and nothing came of this until after WWII.

If possibly under different circumstances the allies had been persuaded this was a good idea then as suggested a restored Hanover and possibly returning its former lands to Saxony would have trimmed Prussia down substantially.

How that would have affected developments in Germany between 1919-33 and onward its difficult to tell but making Prussia less overwhelmingly dominant could possibly have provided alternative power centres that make any autocratic seizure of power more difficult.
 

ATP

Well-known member
What if the state of Prussia in Germany were broken up after WWI?

This is presuming that WWI is ended by the same armistice as OTL, and Germany is only occupied to the same extent it was in OTL, up to the Rhine and over some bridgeheads.

If there had been an Entente demand to break up the state of Prussia (under the theory of breaking up its unhealthy dominance of Germany), but not the breakage of those parts away from Germany itself, would or could the Germans have willingly complied?

While the state of Prussia had existed in its current shape for 53 years (since 1866), not everything was necessarily rosy between all regions.
Of the states abolished and subsumed into Prussia in 1866, at least Hanover still had some nontrivial regionalist sentiment.
Even within pre-1866 Prussia, there could be natural regional differences along axes of religion (Catholic versus Protestant), ideology (Liberal or Socialist versus Conservative) and economic (urban and industrial versus rural and agrarian) leading to preferences for the Rhineland and Westphalia to be separate states from Prussia within Germany.

It might be overboard to roll things all the way back to 1815, and hand Prussian Saxony back to Saxony, or not.

Or, even if there had not been an Entente demand, might there have been indigenous demands for some Prussian break-up.

Regardless of how it comes about, suppose this Prussian break-up happens. Does it have the anticipated anti-militarist, anti-conservative effect on Weimar politics? Perhaps not. My understanding is that the Prussian state government was one of the last bulwarks of resistance to Nazi rule after smaller, more rural states fell earlier into exclusively Nazi hands.

Your thought?

Why not? Prussia conqered other german states,prosecuted catholics there,started WW1 and lost it.Other german states had no reasons to love them.
Much better for Europe - Hitler never win in catholic part of Germany.If you remove prussia with all protestants there,then he would never win election.
No WW2,if there would be soviet invasion german-led coalition would break it.If not,soviets would fall thanks to economy.
We would have german Europe now,becouse Poland was led by idiots,and France by socialists,which would led to German dominating both countries.
And it would last without prussian ballast and genocides of WW2.Becouse both Poland and France had grievances with prussian,not germans.

Now - germans become prussian lesser copies,and are hated becouse of it.Whatever they do,would fall quickly.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
I wonder if the Prussian lobby in Germany would have been smaller in this TL and thus there would have been less pressure in Germany for the reacquisition of Danzig and especially the Polish Corridor, especially in the pre-Nazi era. That could result in somewhat better German-Polish relations since AFAIK, Poles' beef was with Prussians specifically, not with Germans as a whole.
 
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sillygoose

Well-known member
I wonder if the Prussian lobby in Germany would have been smaller in this TL and thus there would have been less pressure in Germany for the reacquisition of Danzig and especially the Polish Corridor, especially in the pre-Nazi era. That could result in somewhat better German-Polish relations since AFAIK, Poles' beef was with Prussians specifically, not with Germans as a whole.
Highly unlikely given the massive antagonism with Poland. The clique in charge in Poland was extremely belligerent and was actively pushing out their large German minority as well as engaging in other provocations like invading Upper Silesia, which ultimately got them half of that very valuable territory despite it voting to remain part of Germany:

Then there was the trade were that Hitler ended in 1934:

It wasn't simply a beef with the Prussians, so getting rid of Prussia as a political entity wouldn't change a thing, especially given that Danzig was 90% German and had wanted to be part of Germany; the majority of Germany considered the ToV and border changes a matter of national pride to revise.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Highly unlikely given the massive antagonism with Poland. The clique in charge in Poland was extremely belligerent and was actively pushing out their large German minority as well as engaging in other provocations like invading Upper Silesia, which ultimately got them half of that very valuable territory despite it voting to remain part of Germany:

Then there was the trade were that Hitler ended in 1934:

It wasn't simply a beef with the Prussians, so getting rid of Prussia as a political entity wouldn't change a thing, especially given that Danzig was 90% German and had wanted to be part of Germany; the majority of Germany considered the ToV and border changes a matter of national pride to revise.

The part of Upper Silesia that was given to Poland actually voted 56% to 44% in favor of Poland, though Yes, Poland certainly got a generous share of the Upper Silesian industrial district. (The part of Upper Silesia that was given to Germany voted 71% to 29% in favor of Germany.)

As for Danzig, maybe there was hope for an eventual compromise sometime down the line in an agreement similar to Munich, but with a non-Nazi German government. But of course such a German government might not aim to limit itself to Danzig but seek the Corridor and perhaps Polish Upper Silesia as well.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
The part of Upper Silesia that was given to Poland actually voted 56% to 44% in favor of Poland, though Yes, Poland certainly got a generous share of the Upper Silesian industrial district. (The part of Upper Silesia that was given to Germany voted 71% to 29% in favor of Germany.)

As for Danzig, maybe there was hope for an eventual compromise sometime down the line in an agreement similar to Munich, but with a non-Nazi German government. But of course such a German government might not aim to limit itself to Danzig but seek the Corridor and perhaps Polish Upper Silesia as well.
Originally the vote was supposed to be for the entire province, but when the Poles didn't get the result they wanted they launched the 3rd uprising, which caused the Allies to divide the province and given the Poles half of it to get them to calm down and avoid a wider conflict.

There was never a hope of getting Danzig back with anything short of violence. The Poles simply refused to deal on it because the government was unstable and beholden to public will, which was very anti-German and unwilling to compromise because they felt they didn't need to thanks to the alliance with France and later Britain.

Beck, the foreign minister, looked into Hitler's proposal, but when he brought up the request by von Ribbentrop the government nixed the plan immediately due to how the public would respond and just ended up threatening war and mobilized when Germany asked again. At this point relations had been good, so the requests for negotiation were not threatening, in fact they included offers of things Poland had wanted like a declaration affirming the borders, which all the pre-Nazi governments had categorically refused to offer. In fact Hitler was probably the only leader Germany produced that could have potentially negotiated with Poland, because the Polish leaders refused to trust any 'Prussian' politician, which were all that were in charge of Weimar. Even the 1934 trade and nonaggression pact was impossible during Weimar.

Definitely the Weimar leaders wanted major revisions to the border, Hitler was ironically a moderate because he wasn't a Prussia and as an Austrian generally had a pretty positive view of the Poles, especially given their anti-communist stance and war record. That only changed after being aggressively and repeatedly rebuffed and threatened by Poland over the issue in 1939.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Originally the vote was supposed to be for the entire province, but when the Poles didn't get the result they wanted they launched the 3rd uprising, which caused the Allies to divide the province and given the Poles half of it to get them to calm down and avoid a wider conflict.

There was never a hope of getting Danzig back with anything short of violence. The Poles simply refused to deal on it because the government was unstable and beholden to public will, which was very anti-German and unwilling to compromise because they felt they didn't need to thanks to the alliance with France and later Britain.

Beck, the foreign minister, looked into Hitler's proposal, but when he brought up the request by von Ribbentrop the government nixed the plan immediately due to how the public would respond and just ended up threatening war and mobilized when Germany asked again. At this point relations had been good, so the requests for negotiation were not threatening, in fact they included offers of things Poland had wanted like a declaration affirming the borders, which all the pre-Nazi governments had categorically refused to offer. In fact Hitler was probably the only leader Germany produced that could have potentially negotiated with Poland, because the Polish leaders refused to trust any 'Prussian' politician, which were all that were in charge of Weimar. Even the 1934 trade and nonaggression pact was impossible during Weimar.

Definitely the Weimar leaders wanted major revisions to the border, Hitler was ironically a moderate because he wasn't a Prussia and as an Austrian generally had a pretty positive view of the Poles, especially given their anti-communist stance and war record. That only changed after being aggressively and repeatedly rebuffed and threatened by Poland over the issue in 1939.

Do you have a source that the Upper Silesia plebiscite was originally meant to be winner-take-all? My impression was that the plebiscite was meant to have a consultory character which the League of Nations would subsequently use to determine the final border there based on the results of the plebiscite.

The alliance with France and Britain might be much weaker without the threat of Nazism in Germany. Would Brits really be willing to die for Danzig if German troops were not already in Prague beforehand, for instance? I'm not so sure. Austen Chambelain said in 1925 that the Polish Corridor is not worth the life of a single British grenadier.

Yeah, Hitler was relatively pro-Polish for a German politician. The crucial question for Poland, of course, would be his views in regards to the future of the Soviet Union.

Yes, I know.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
Do you have a source that the Upper Silesia plebiscite was originally meant to be winner-take-all? My impression was that the plebiscite was meant to have a consultory character which the League of Nations would subsequently use to determine the final border there based on the results of the plebiscite.
The link I posted about the uprisings. However there is more details here:

If you have a better source that explains the situation as you describe I'd like to see it so we can figure out the truth of the matter.

The alliance with France and Britain might be much weaker without the threat of Nazism in Germany. Would Brits really be willing to die for Danzig if German troops were not already in Prague beforehand, for instance? I'm not so sure. Austen Chambelain said in 1925 that the Polish Corridor is not worth the life of a single British grenadier.
The Brits didn't matter. The French had already signed on to fight if Germany tried to do anything with Danzig.
But the guarantee to Poland actually had nothing to do with Poland, but rather Romania, as someone started a rumor that Hitler was going to go after Romania right after occupying Prague, so the guarantee to Poland was actually meant to get Poland to sign on for a new 'little Entente' once the old one fell apart. Instead Poland used that for cover to continue push out ethnic Germans since they thought they had enough support to prevent Hitler from doing anything about it; then once they completed that drive they could declare the borders set so that Germany wouldn't be able to ask for future border revisions.

IOTL Chamberlain wasn't really willing to fight over Danzig, but public and media pressure, as well as that of Churchill, forced him to do something so he wouldn't see his government collapse and then have Churchill take over and take the nation to war over Danzig. He was banking on Hitler backing down in the face of the guarantee, but hadn't anticipated Warsaw being so belligerent or Stalin aligning with Hitler. Hitler too thought that once Stalin was on board that Chamberlain wouldn't be crazy enough to go to war since it was basically an unwinnable fight from that point on for the Allies.

Yeah, Hitler was relatively pro-Polish for a German politician. The crucial question for Poland, of course, would be his views in regards to the future of the Soviet Union.

Yes, I know.
IOTL it seems like from what he was planning was to have Poland allied so that he could have a secure eastern flank and strong anti-communist ally rather than invade. At this point he was trying to ensure Poland and the Baltic states plus the Balkans would be in his political, military, and economic camp to both hem in Stalin, have a reliable source of raw materials and food, and have a bunch of allied militaries that would absorb any blows from the East to spare German troops for counterattacks in the event of war. Hitler was highly fearful of encirclement, so having his eastern wall would effectively negate the threat of the Soviets as well as remove the French allies in the region so there wasn't a threat of encirclement.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
The link I posted about the uprisings. However there is more details here:

If you have a better source that explains the situation as you describe I'd like to see it so we can figure out the truth of the matter.

Nothing better than the Versailles Treaty itself as a source:


Article 88[edit]
In the portion of Upper Silesia included within the boundaries described below, the inhabitants will be called upon to indicate by a vote whether they wish to be attached to Germany or to Poland:

starting from the northern point of the salient of the old province of Austrian Silesia situated about 8 kilometres east of Neustadt, the former frontier between Germany and Austria to its junction with the boundary between the Kreise of Leobschütz and Ratibor;

thence in a northerly direction to a point about 2 kilometres south-east of Katscher: the boundary between the Kreise of Leobschütz and Ratibor;

thence in a south-easterly direction to a point on the course of the Oder immediately south of the Ratibor–Oderberg railway: a line to be fixed on the ground passing south of Kranowitz;

thence the old boundary between Germany and Austria, then the old boundary between Germany and Russia to its junction with the administrative boundary between Posnania and Upper Silesia;

thence this administrative boundary to its junction with the administrative boundary between Upper and Middle Silesia;

thence westwards to the point where the administrative boundary turns in an acute angle to the south-east about 3 kilometres north-west of Simmenau: the boundary between Upper and Middle Silesia;

then in a westerly direction to a point to be fixed on the ground about 2 kilometres east of Lorzendorf: a line to be fixed on the ground passing north of Klein Hennersdorf;

thence southwards to the point where the boundary between Upper and Middle Silesia cuts the StädtelKarlsruhe road: a line to be fixed on the ground passing west of Hennersdorf, Polkowitz, Noldau, Steinersdorf, and Dammer, and east of Strehlitz, Nassadel, Eckersdorf, Schwirz, and Städtel;

thence the boundary between Upper and Middle Silesia to its junction with the eastern boundary of the Kreis of Falkenberg;

then the eastern boundary of the Kreis of Falkenberg to the point of the salient which is 3 kilometres east of Puschine;

thence to the northern point of the salient of the old province of Austrian Silesia situated about 8 kilometres east of Neustadt: a line to be fixed on the ground passing east of Zülz.

The regime under which this plebiscite will be taken and given effect to is laid down in the Annex hereto.

The Polish and German Governments hereby respectively bind themselves to conduct no prosecutions on any part of their territory and to take no exceptional proceedings for any political action performed in Upper Silesia during the period of the regime laid down in the Annex hereto and up to the settlement of the final status of the country.

Germany hereby renounces in favour of Poland all rights and title over the portion of Upper Silesia Iying beyond the frontier line fixed by the Principal Allied and Associated Powers as the result of the plebiscite.

Annex[edit]
1. Within fifteen days from the coming into force of the present Treaty the German troops and such officials as may be designated by the Commission set up under the provisions of paragraph 2 shall evacuate the plebiscite area. Up to the moment of the completion of the evacuation they shall refrain from any form of requisitioning in money or in kind and from all acts likely to prejudice the material interests of the country.

Within the same period the Workmen's and Soldiers' Councils which have been constituted in this area shall be dissolved. Members of such Councils who are natives of another region and are exercising their functions at the date of the coming into force of the present Treaty, or who have gone out of office since 1 March 1919, shall be evacuated.

All military and semi-military unions formed in the said area by inhabitants of the district shall be immediately disbanded. All members of such military organisations who are not domiciled in the said area shall be required to leave it.

2. The plebiscite area shall be immediately placed under the authority of an International Commission of four members to be designated by the following Powers: the United States of America, France, the British Empire, and Italy. It shall be occupied by troops belonging to the Allied and Associated Powers, and the German Government undertakes to give facilities for the transference of these troops to Upper Silesia.

3. The Commission shall enjoy all the powers exercised by the German or the Prussian Government, except those of legislation or taxation. It shall also be substituted for the Government of the province and the Regierungsbezirk.

It shall be within the competence of the Commission to interpret the powers hereby conferred upon it and to determine to what extent it shall exercise them, and to what extent they shall be left in the hands of the existing authorities.

Changes in the existing laws and the existing taxation shall only be brought into force with the consent of the Commission.

The Commission will maintain order with the help of the troops which will be at its disposal, and, to the extent which it may deem necessary, by means of gendarmerie recruited among the inhabitants of the country.

The Commission shall provide immediately for the replacement of the evacuated German officials and, if occasion arises, shall itself order the evacuation of such authorities and proceed to the replacement of such local authorities as may be required.

It shall take all steps which it thinks proper to ensure the freedom, fairness, and secrecy of the vote. In particular, it shall have the right to order the expulsion of any person who may in any way have attempted to distort the result of the plebiscite by methods of corruption or intimidation.

The Commission shall have full power to settle all questions arising from the execution of the present clauses. It shall be assisted by technical advisers chosen by it from among the local population.

The decisions of the Commission shall be taken by a majority vote.

4. The vote shall take place at such date as may be determined by the Principal Allied and Associated Powers, but not sooner than six months or later than eighteen months after the establishment of the Commission in the area.

The right to vote shall be given to all persons without distinction of sex who:

(a) Have completed their twentieth year on the 1 January of the year in which the plebiscite takes place.

(b) Were born in the plebiscite area or have been domiciled there since a date to be determined by the Commission, which shall not be subsequent to 1 January 1919, or who have been expelled by the German authorities and have not retained their domicile there.

Persons convicted of political offences shall be enabled to exercise their right of voting.

Every person will vote in the commune where he is domiciled or in which he was born, if he has not retained his domicile in the area.

The result of the vote will be determined by communes according to the majority of votes in each commune.

5. On the conclusion of the voting, the number of votes cast in each commune will be communicated by the Commission to the Principal Allied and Associated Powers, with a full report as to the taking of the vote and a recommendation as to the line which ought to be adopted as the frontier of Germany in Upper Silesia. In this recommendation regard will be paid to the wishes of the inhabitants as shown by the vote, and to the geographical and economic conditions of the locality.

6. As soon as the frontier has been fixed by the Principal Allied and Associated Powers, the German authorities will be notified by the International Commission that they are free to take over the administration of the territory which it is recognised should be German, the said authorities must proceed to do so within one month of such notification and in the manner prescribed by the Commission.

Within the same period and in the manner prescribed by the commission, the Polish Government must proceed to take over the administration of the territory which it is recognized should be Polish.

When the administration of the territory has been provided for by the German and Polish authorities respectively, the powers of the Commission will terminate.

The cost of the army of occupation and expenditure by the Commission, whether in discharge of its own functions or in the administration of the territory, will be a charge on the area.

Apparently the Versailles Treaty gave the Commission that was in charge of the plebiscite the power to determine the new German-Polish border in Upper Silesia after this plebiscite based on the results of this plebiscite, which were to be presumably interpreted by this Commission.

The Brits didn't matter. The French had already signed on to fight if Germany tried to do anything with Danzig.
But the guarantee to Poland actually had nothing to do with Poland, but rather Romania, as someone started a rumor that Hitler was going to go after Romania right after occupying Prague, so the guarantee to Poland was actually meant to get Poland to sign on for a new 'little Entente' once the old one fell apart. Instead Poland used that for cover to continue push out ethnic Germans since they thought they had enough support to prevent Hitler from doing anything about it; then once they completed that drive they could declare the borders set so that Germany wouldn't be able to ask for future border revisions.

IOTL Chamberlain wasn't really willing to fight over Danzig, but public and media pressure, as well as that of Churchill, forced him to do something so he wouldn't see his government collapse and then have Churchill take over and take the nation to war over Danzig. He was banking on Hitler backing down in the face of the guarantee, but hadn't anticipated Warsaw being so belligerent or Stalin aligning with Hitler. Hitler too thought that once Stalin was on board that Chamberlain wouldn't be crazy enough to go to war since it was basically an unwinnable fight from that point on for the Allies.


IOTL it seems like from what he was planning was to have Poland allied so that he could have a secure eastern flank and strong anti-communist ally rather than invade. At this point he was trying to ensure Poland and the Baltic states plus the Balkans would be in his political, military, and economic camp to both hem in Stalin, have a reliable source of raw materials and food, and have a bunch of allied militaries that would absorb any blows from the East to spare German troops for counterattacks in the event of war. Hitler was highly fearful of encirclement, so having his eastern wall would effectively negate the threat of the Soviets as well as remove the French allies in the region so there wasn't a threat of encirclement.

I'm not sure that the French would fight over Danzig without British support. They could throw Poland under the bus like they did with Czechoslovakia in such a scenario, or at least argue that their alliance with Poland does not apply to Danzig itself.

As for Poland's Germans, they weren't much of a demographic threat even in 1931:



There was apparently only one small part of Poland where Germans were over 40% of the population in 1931. So, there was no need for any Polish ethnic cleansing of Germans. Germans were already moving with their feet, similar to Russians in post-1991 independent Kazakhstan.

That makes sense. Though I disagree with it being an unwinnable fight for the Allies since Stalin wasn't actually willing to fight on Hitler's behalf--simply to provide him with a lot of resources and to protect one of his flanks.

What about securing Ukraine for Nazi Germany?
 

stevep

Well-known member
What about securing Ukraine for Nazi Germany?

If Hitler had managed to puppetize Poland then he would have gone after France next. Both to secure his western border and as SG mentioned there was the desire to regain Alsace-Lorraine. [Plus for the real fanatics 'avenge' the humiliation of the 1918 defeat]. Only after that would he be happy with going for the Soviets and the desired Lebensraum in the east.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
If Hitler had managed to puppetize Poland then he would have gone after France next. Both to secure his western border and as SG mentioned there was the desire to regain Alsace-Lorraine. [Plus for the real fanatics 'avenge' the humiliation of the 1918 defeat]. Only after that would he be happy with going for the Soviets and the desired Lebensraum in the east.

AFAIK, Hitler cared much more about Eastern Lebensraum than about Alsace-Lorraine.
 

stevep

Well-known member
AFAIK, Hitler cared much more about Eastern Lebensraum than about Alsace-Lorraine.

Very true but he wanted both and, especially being a militaristic expansionist he wasn't going to risk leaving an unoccupied France behind him while he struck east.
 

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