WI: The Knights Templar are not suppressed

Circle of Willis

Well-known member
The Templar Order was one of the three most famous military orders of medieval Christendom alongside the Hospitallers and Teutonic Knights, and also the only one of the three to not have survived into modernity (even if only as defanged, pale shadows of their former selves - certainly as far as we know, neither the Hospitallers nor the Teutons have any secret armies lying around anywhere these days). They had a dramatic rise & fall, for within two centuries they had not only became the tip-of-the-lance for many Christian armies in the Crusades but also amassed a supranational financial empire spanning numerous castles, estates and businesses across Europe. And that was on top of managing arguably the first Christian banks (narrowly beating out those of Renaissance Italy) and pioneering cheques with how they handled pilgrims' transactions & deposits.

Of course, the Templars' wealth attracted the ire & envy of powerful European monarchs, chief among them the autocratic and ruthless Philip the Fair of France. After managing to install a puppet in the Chair of Saint Peter, Clement V (who was also the first of the Avignon Popes, infamous for their corruption and blatant favoritism toward France in international politics), Philip arranged for the Templar leadership to be arrested and tortured into 'confessing' to blasphemy & demon worship. Clement dissolved their order, their bountiful assets were confiscated by the secular authorities, and their last Grandmaster Jacques de Molay was burned at the stake (among others). Legend has it that he cursed his tormentors, and that this curse's final poison fruit was the extinction of the senior Capetian bloodline of which Philip (who died on a hunt some months afterward) was the patriarch at the time: though it had seemed unassailable with 300 years of unbroken father-son succession behind it and three adult, married heirs ahead of Philip, a series of dramatic affairs and relatively young deaths annihilated the royal family not even 20 years after De Molay's immolation - passing the French throne on to their Valois cousins, and setting up the Hundred Years' War with England.

Still, the damage had been done, with the Templars destroyed pretty much everywhere except Portugal and Aragon (where they regrouped as the Order of Christ and Order of Montesa, respectively). Nowadays, aside from being a curiosity for historical discussions, they've mainly become fodder for conspiracy theories. But what if the Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon had managed to avoid this ignominious fate? I think a good POD (besides just making the crusades more successful so that the Templars still seem indispensable militarily to Christendom) would be to give them their own order-state, as the Hospitallers and Teutons had, and thus a reliable bastion where they could wall themselves up if attacked by secular monarchs like Philip IV: in this regard two possibilities are Cyprus, which the Templars briefly ruled but found to be too much of a hassle to hold directly & sold off to the King of Jerusalem, and Alfonso of Aragon wanting to will his kingdom to them. How could a surviving Templar Order, or even an 'État Monastique des chevaliers Templiers', affect the course of late-medieval European history & beyond?
 

ATP

Well-known member
Polish duke made mistake and asked Teutonic knights to come and fight prussians.But,if he asked templars instead - there would be no problems for anybody.
 

Circle of Willis

Well-known member
I wonder how this could affect the various Crusades of the 1300s in the Aegean Basin.
Maybe greater success in and around Smyrna in the late 14th-early 15th centuries. However if Timur comes knocking, a combined Hospitaller-Templar defense seems only slightly less doomed than the historical Hospitaller-only garrison of 200 did before his might.

To have the Templars represent a more decisive advantage in one of these late crusades, I think having them play a major role in the Crusade of 1396 would be the best bet. Either they support the Holy Roman Emperor Sigismund and Voivode Mircea of Wallachia in the war-council preceding the Battle of Nicopolis, and still possess the influence to hold the French knights back from recklessly charging off toward the Ottoman camp and committing suicide by Turk, or they somehow persuade the Pope & various crusading powers to put the crusade off for a few more years until Timur wrecks the Ottomans.

Either way, a more successful anti-Turkish crusade around 1400 could at least evict the OE from the European side of the Bosphorus, and hopefully also buy the Bulgarians (who the Crusade of 1396 was actually intended to aid first & foremost) and Byzantines enough time to build themselves back up to a point where they can contain the Turks there.
Polish duke made mistake and asked Teutonic knights to come and fight prussians.But,if he asked templars instead - there would be no problems for anybody.
I think the Teutons were first called in in 1226 - not sure how feasible large-scale Templar involvement in the burgeoning Northern Crusades would have been then, they & the Hospitallers seemed far more interested in the Mideast & Mediterranean (where they still maintained a few strongholds for almost another century, the last - Arwad - went down only in 1302), which only left the Teutons free to take the job. The Templars did seem to be a bit more diplomatic in how they dealt with non-Christian neighbors & subjects than the TO, to the point that it was a point of criticism against them toward the final suppression of their order IOTL, so maybe a Templar order-state in the east would be less likely to step on its neighbors' (at least Lithuania's) toes.

However, as far as 13th century PODs go, another one comes to mind: the 8th Crusade being better-timed and succeeding as a result of not having to fight in the peak of the African summer, with an alternate Templar order-state eventually being established in Tunisia & Algeria as a result (though they'd probably need to beat out the ambitious Charles of Anjou for it). Apparently there were still some African Christians hanging around as late as the 14th century, who can serve as an African Latin equivalent to the Maronites for this hypothetical Templar state, and the Berber tribes themselves can supply the Maghrebi equivalent to Turcopoles for the Templar army. It'd also be closer to and more easily supported from Templar bases in France and Iberia than an order-state in Prussia.

(In the event that France still purges the Templars, and the order regroups in North Africa, a parallel to the hypothetical Pied-Noir country thought of in the last years of the Algerian War did cross my mind, although without modern race politics in the mix and more native support in the form of the Berbers and African Latins, my assumption is that the famously multinational Templars would have an easier go at making their presence there permanent)
 

History Learner

Well-known member
Maybe greater success in and around Smyrna in the late 14th-early 15th centuries. However if Timur comes knocking, a combined Hospitaller-Templar defense seems only slightly less doomed than the historical Hospitaller-only garrison of 200 did before his might.

To have the Templars represent a more decisive advantage in one of these late crusades, I think having them play a major role in the Crusade of 1396 would be the best bet. Either they support the Holy Roman Emperor Sigismund and Voivode Mircea of Wallachia in the war-council preceding the Battle of Nicopolis, and still possess the influence to hold the French knights back from recklessly charging off toward the Ottoman camp and committing suicide by Turk, or they somehow persuade the Pope & various crusading powers to put the crusade off for a few more years until Timur wrecks the Ottomans.

Either way, a more successful anti-Turkish crusade around 1400 could at least evict the OE from the European side of the Bosphorus, and hopefully also buy the Bulgarians (who the Crusade of 1396 was actually intended to aid first & foremost) and Byzantines enough time to build themselves back up to a point where they can contain the Turks there.

Honestly, I'm thinking bigger.

The 1340s Civil War in Byzantium is often considered the straw that broke the camel's back, coming as it did with the Plague, exhausting the last resources of the State and sending it into a terminal decline as Serbs, Ottomans and others picked over the corpse. Before that, however, the Empire was having something of a resurgence, retaking Chios from the Latins and conquering-either directly or by diplomacy almost all of Greece with the remainder as effective vassals by the time the Civil War started. The Navy was being revived and with most of its neighbors concerned with other affairs, it appeared able Statesman like John Kantakouzenos and Alexios Apokaukos could use their talents to right the ship.

And then Andronikos III Palaiologos died unexpectedly, leaving the question of Regency for his son undecided and thus triggering the Civil War.

Now, obviously with butterfly effect several decades in front of these events this can be changed, but even if not we can play around with it a lot. If the Templars are more active in the Aegean, this could be changed; maybe the Hospitallers could prevent Andronikos death? Or, perhaps, the Templars being able to campaign against the Aydınids-who were already on the Christian shit list because of their rampant piracy against shipping in the region-allows a quicker end to the civil war. The support of Umar Bey was a critical factor in the success of the Kantakouzenos faction, which the lack of here could allow the Regency to achieve a faster and decisive victory.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
However, as far as 13th century PODs go, another one comes to mind: the 8th Crusade being better-timed and succeeding as a result of not having to fight in the peak of the African summer, with an alternate Templar order-state eventually being established in Tunisia & Algeria as a result (though they'd probably need to beat out the ambitious Charles of Anjou for it). Apparently there were still some African Christians hanging around as late as the 14th century, who can serve as an African Latin equivalent to the Maronites for this hypothetical Templar state, and the Berber tribes themselves can supply the Maghrebi equivalent to Turcopoles for the Templar army. It'd also be closer to and more easily supported from Templar bases in France and Iberia than an order-state in Prussia.

(In the event that France still purges the Templars, and the order regroups in North Africa, a parallel to the hypothetical Pied-Noir country thought of in the last years of the Algerian War did cross my mind, although without modern race politics in the mix and more native support in the form of the Berbers and African Latins, my assumption is that the famously multinational Templars would have an easier go at making their presence there permanent)

A Christian "Tunisia" (Most likely called Carthage, perhaps?) could have serious effects on down the line. The prevalence of Christian Banking institutions from the 13th Century on could speed up the Reconquista in Iberia, as well as providing an incentive to continue the advance into North Africa at large.
 

Circle of Willis

Well-known member
Honestly, I'm thinking bigger.

The 1340s Civil War in Byzantium is often considered the straw that broke the camel's back, coming as it did with the Plague, exhausting the last resources of the State and sending it into a terminal decline as Serbs, Ottomans and others picked over the corpse. Before that, however, the Empire was having something of a resurgence, retaking Chios from the Latins and conquering-either directly or by diplomacy almost all of Greece with the remainder as effective vassals by the time the Civil War started. The Navy was being revived and with most of its neighbors concerned with other affairs, it appeared able Statesman like John Kantakouzenos and Alexios Apokaukos could use their talents to right the ship.

And then Andronikos III Palaiologos died unexpectedly, leaving the question of Regency for his son undecided and thus triggering the Civil War.

Now, obviously with butterfly effect several decades in front of these events this can be changed, but even if not we can play around with it a lot. If the Templars are more active in the Aegean, this could be changed; maybe the Hospitallers could prevent Andronikos death? Or, perhaps, the Templars being able to campaign against the Aydınids-who were already on the Christian shit list because of their rampant piracy against shipping in the region-allows a quicker end to the civil war. The support of Umar Bey was a critical factor in the success of the Kantakouzenos faction, which the lack of here could allow the Regency to achieve a faster and decisive victory.
A Christian "Tunisia" (Most likely called Carthage, perhaps?) could have serious effects on down the line. The prevalence of Christian Banking institutions from the 13th Century on could speed up the Reconquista in Iberia, as well as providing an incentive to continue the advance into North Africa at large.
Gotta admit I didn't think of Templar meddling in the fatal civil war of the Palaiologoi, but that would lead to some very interesting places indeed. IIRC Andronikos III died from malaria, which I don't think the quinine-less medieval Europeans had any effective treatment for, so I don't think he can be saved unless he just never comes down with it at all - the Templars destroying the Aydinids to accelerate the regency council's victory over Kantakouzenos seems the more promising POD here.

For a Palaiologoi dynasty that's avoided the worst of their civil war, I think reclaiming even the Komnenoi-era borders would be a very tall order. Even after recovering & pulling upward out of past downward spirals, the Byzantines notably always ended up with smaller borders than they had before the fall (the Heraclians couldn't retake Justinian's borders, the Macedonians couldn't recover what the Heraclians had before Islam hit them like a freight train, the Komnenoi couldn't retake all that had been lost since the Macedonians...) and I doubt the Palaiologoi could break that cycle without some extreme luck. Not in a time of plagues and enemies/likely regional rivals (the Turks, Hungary, Genoa/Venice, arguably even Serbia & Bulgaria) that are pretty dang strong relative to them.

However I could easily imagine the Byzantines managing to maintain a modest but stable realm around the Aegean, chewing up the Latin Achaean/Athenian principalities to establish a contiguous link to the Morea, taking Epirus back once that Despotate implodes, and eventually mounting counterattacks into Anatolia. Maybe a future crusade can help them retake Nicaea again, and even linking up with Trebizond may be possible if Timur still exists and wrecks the Anatolian Turks while the Palaiologoi are in a position to actually exploit his ravages.

Re: Templars in North Africa, for sure. To my knowledge, after the Almohads imploded none of their successors could measure up to them - the Hafsids of Tunis were the stablest & longest lasting of the bunch, and they would already have been taken out by a successful Eighth Crusade, leaving only the weak Zayyanids of Tlemcen and Marinids of Fez (the latter only resembled a pale imitation of the Almohads at their strongest and got crushed when they tried to push into Spain to bail out Granada, after which the Islamic world seems to have abandoned Granada to its eventual fate). If the Templars can carve out an African 'État Monastique' comparable in size & power to the Teutonic Ordenstaat, I imagine squashing these other post-Almohad states and helping the Spanish wrap up the Reconquista early would be their primary objective besides holding off any Islamic efforts at reconquest from Egypt & Libya.

After that...well, they'd be supremely well positioned to colonize the Canaries instead of Castile/Portugal. Spearheading Christian exploration & missionary/trading missions into the West African hinterland (perhaps Christianizing Songhai, which got destroyed by the Islamic Moroccans) and along its coast, following that. And, once a New World opens up across the Atlantic for exploration...

BomDZw5.jpg


Well, the Hospitallers did historically have colonies, even if they were only a paltry handful of Caribbean islands held for little over a decade in the 1600s. Maybe the Templars can have better luck with an earlier start, a bigger African powerbase & greater resources from their banking empire.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
Gotta admit I didn't think of Templar meddling in the fatal civil war of the Palaiologoi, but that would lead to some very interesting places indeed. IIRC Andronikos III died from malaria, which I don't think the quinine-less medieval Europeans had any effective treatment for, so I don't think he can be saved unless he just never comes down with it at all - the Templars destroying the Aydinids to accelerate the regency council's victory over Kantakouzenos seems the more promising POD here.

For a Palaiologoi dynasty that's avoided the worst of their civil war, I think reclaiming even the Komnenoi-era borders would be a very tall order. Even after recovering & pulling upward out of past downward spirals, the Byzantines notably always ended up with smaller borders than they had before the fall (the Heraclians couldn't retake Justinian's borders, the Macedonians couldn't recover what the Heraclians had before Islam hit them like a freight train, the Komnenoi couldn't retake all that had been lost since the Macedonians...) and I doubt the Palaiologoi could break that cycle without some extreme luck. Not in a time of plagues and enemies/likely regional rivals (the Turks, Hungary, Genoa/Venice, arguably even Serbia & Bulgaria) that are pretty dang strong relative to them.

However I could easily imagine the Byzantines managing to maintain a modest but stable realm around the Aegean, chewing up the Latin Achaean/Athenian principalities to establish a contiguous link to the Morea, taking Epirus back once that Despotate implodes, and eventually mounting counterattacks into Anatolia. Maybe a future crusade can help them retake Nicaea again, and even linking up with Trebizond may be possible if Timur still exists and wrecks the Anatolian Turks while the Palaiologoi are in a position to actually exploit his ravages.

Was thinking they'd come to control everything under the Haemus Mountains, maybe some limited (re)conquests on Anatolia, rather than regaining any large swathes of it. I've admittedly been inspired by this TL, with the Byzantines becoming more of a powerful trading empire rather than going on a Reconquista of their own into Anatolia. One idea, perhaps that fits in better with what you're suggesting here with the Templars, would be them taking the place the Ottomans historically held in regards to finally forcing the Mamelukes under later on. Thus, we'd get a Byzantium that controls all of Greece but also Egypt, perhaps conquering it in tandem with the Templars out of West Africa.

Re: Templars in North Africa, for sure. To my knowledge, after the Almohads imploded none of their successors could measure up to them - the Hafsids of Tunis were the stablest & longest lasting of the bunch, and they would already have been taken out by a successful Eighth Crusade, leaving only the weak Zayyanids of Tlemcen and Marinids of Fez (the latter only resembled a pale imitation of the Almohads at their strongest and got crushed when they tried to push into Spain to bail out Granada, after which the Islamic world seems to have abandoned Granada to its eventual fate). If the Templars can carve out an African 'État Monastique' comparable in size & power to the Teutonic Ordenstaat, I imagine squashing these other post-Almohad states and helping the Spanish wrap up the Reconquista early would be their primary objective besides holding off any Islamic efforts at reconquest from Egypt & Libya.

After that...well, they'd be supremely well positioned to colonize the Canaries instead of Castile/Portugal. Spearheading Christian exploration & missionary/trading missions into the West African hinterland (perhaps Christianizing Songhai, which got destroyed by the Islamic Moroccans) and along its coast, following that. And, once a New World opens up across the Atlantic for exploration...

BomDZw5.jpg


Well, the Hospitallers did historically have colonies, even if they were only a paltry handful of Caribbean islands held for little over a decade in the 1600s. Maybe the Templars can have better luck with an earlier start, a bigger African powerbase & greater resources from their banking empire.

Was thinking more in terms of them aiding Spanish or Portuguese efforts, rather than taking it all for themselves. OTL Algeria, Tunisia and Libya as a Templar state certainly sounds interesting though, as does them using trade and missionaries to evangelize large portions of the rest of Africa.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
However, as far as 13th century PODs go, another one comes to mind: the 8th Crusade being better-timed and succeeding as a result of not having to fight in the peak of the African summer, with an alternate Templar order-state eventually being established in Tunisia & Algeria as a result (though they'd probably need to beat out the ambitious Charles of Anjou for it). Apparently there were still some African Christians hanging around as late as the 14th century, who can serve as an African Latin equivalent to the Maronites for this hypothetical Templar state, and the Berber tribes themselves can supply the Maghrebi equivalent to Turcopoles for the Templar army. It'd also be closer to and more easily supported from Templar bases in France and Iberia than an order-state in Prussia.

One wonders how this would change the War of the Sicilian Vespers; no Sicilian expedition to Morea could, perhaps, have a positive impact on Byzantium by re-directing the ambitions of Charles of Anjou into North Africa instead. It'd also strengthen Papal influence, given how unpopular the Aragonese Crusade was.

@Eparkhos I know you like to play around this era with the Byzantines, any thoughts?
 
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WolfBear

Well-known member
Honestly, I'm thinking bigger.

The 1340s Civil War in Byzantium is often considered the straw that broke the camel's back, coming as it did with the Plague, exhausting the last resources of the State and sending it into a terminal decline as Serbs, Ottomans and others picked over the corpse. Before that, however, the Empire was having something of a resurgence, retaking Chios from the Latins and conquering-either directly or by diplomacy almost all of Greece with the remainder as effective vassals by the time the Civil War started. The Navy was being revived and with most of its neighbors concerned with other affairs, it appeared able Statesman like John Kantakouzenos and Alexios Apokaukos could use their talents to right the ship.

And then Andronikos III Palaiologos died unexpectedly, leaving the question of Regency for his son undecided and thus triggering the Civil War.

Now, obviously with butterfly effect several decades in front of these events this can be changed, but even if not we can play around with it a lot. If the Templars are more active in the Aegean, this could be changed; maybe the Hospitallers could prevent Andronikos death? Or, perhaps, the Templars being able to campaign against the Aydınids-who were already on the Christian shit list because of their rampant piracy against shipping in the region-allows a quicker end to the civil war. The support of Umar Bey was a critical factor in the success of the Kantakouzenos faction, which the lack of here could allow the Regency to achieve a faster and decisive victory.

Can the Byzantine Empire invite the Knights Templar to settle there? Yes, there would be the religious difference, but if the Knights Templar are sufficiently desperate, can this hurdle not be overcome? And they would have the opportunity of fighting for Christ against the Saracens once again.
 
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ATP

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Can the Byzantine Empire invite the Knights Templar to settle there? Yes, there would be the religious difference, but if the Knights Templar are sufficiently desperate, can this hurdle not be overcome? And they would have the opportunity of fighting for Christ against the Saracens once again.

Russia saved Jesuits after masons destroyed them in western Europe - so why not? ERE here would survive longer,and templars would eventually come back to West.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Russia saved Jesuits after masons destroyed them in western Europe - so why not? ERE here would survive longer,and templars would eventually come back to West.

When exactly did the Masons destroy the Jesuits in Western Europe?
 

History Learner

Well-known member
Can the Byzantine Empire invite the Knights Templar to settle there? Yes, there would be the religious difference, but if the Knights Templar are sufficiently desperate, can this hurdle not be overcome? And they would have the opportunity of fighting for Christ against the Saracens once again.

I see no reason they would, beyond institutional ties like Templar banks or such. The PoD needed here would preclude the need such, besides the religious issues.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
I see no reason they would, beyond institutional ties like Templar banks or such. The PoD needed here would preclude the need such, besides the religious issues.

Wouldn't the Byzantine Empire always be happy with more warm fighting bodies just so long as they are not subversives, though? It would mean that less of their own troops would have to die, for instance.
 

TheRomanSlayer

Unipolarity is for Subhuman Trogdolytes
Wouldn't the Byzantine Empire always be happy with more warm fighting bodies just so long as they are not subversives, though? It would mean that less of their own troops would have to die, for instance.
Possible, although weren't there any tensions between the regular Byzantine soldiers and the Latin Crusaders during the First Crusade or something? Not to mention the infamous Fourth Crusade that permanently destroyed the unity between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

From what I could see, I think that the Templars being granted an island like Malta could be a major game changer, as they could interdict between Sicily and Tunis.
 

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