What Made You A Conservative?

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
And I am against there being governments.

I think in practice you have to have some government, even if just a little bit, if only to prevent other people from rolling in and imposing a whole lot of their form of government on you.

They added a George Floyd section to the Holocaust museum. They've made a low level criminal into a Saint.

I don't usually use such expressions, but that is just taking a huge dump on the memory of all the people who were mass-murdered by all the genocidal regimes of the 20th century.
 

Battlegrinder

Someday we will win, no matter what it takes.
Moderator
Staff Member
Founder
Obozny
I didn't support any specific action by invocation of scripture. I supported the idea that we should actually care about murder.

Hmm....

Those sorts of answers have been tried and failed over and over. Eventually people are going to resist. And that's all I will say on that here.

So when you ruled out taking action to deal with police misconduct on the department level and instead said that "resistance" was inevitable, what exactly were you suggesting?
 

mesonoxian

Well-known member
Hmm....



So when you ruled out taking action to deal with police misconduct on the department level and instead said that "resistance" was inevitable, what exactly were you suggesting?
Notice the absence of any scriptural support presented for that statement.

And I was suggesting just what I said. Eventually, people will fight back against those who injure or exploit them.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
The disingenuity is tiring. You haven't once actually tried to push back against the concrete criticisms of anarchism and anarchy we've presented to you, instead opting to continually shift the topic of debate to I don't even know what it is right now.
 
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Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Not really?



Police brutality occurs all the time all over the world, even just as a statistical anomaly in otherwise fairly well adjusted police forces.



As an atheist, I couldn't give a damn.

So in that case they had to restrain him to allow them to change the cuffs, and since he was using his legs to try and resist they out lg cuffs on him. TO allow for easy transport
YYou don't have to apologize for things you didn't do. And I specifically mentioned that China and Dubai (and you could easily throw in Saudi Arabia and Iran) do horrible things all the time.

Yeah, the Democrats were a profoundly racist party, and were pretty much since Jefferson founded them. The division between northern Democrats and the "Dixiecrats" got more and more extreme until the 1960s when Kennedy and Johnson supported the Civil Rights Act. Then Nixon engaged in the "Southern Strategy" of supporting racists in the south to win them over to the Republicans. Since then the Democrats have largely been the party of minority rights, which is a shame, because the party of Lincoln deserved better.

I guess I'm just not okay with authoritarians murdering people.
Yet why do the left prasie them and yet ridicule whites for having less slavery and human rights violations and not agreeing whites have been enslaved?

Except there was no party switch. My Prof has always been a life long democrats and has noticed that the same people are also the racists. Or does Hillary's racist comments, as with Bidens, or the various laws they made that hurt blacks more then whites?
Wierd that Republicans have done more for Blacks then the Dems, they just made it seem like there was a switch to allow for minorities to think they really were.

Hell, look at Detroit for a good example. The city has been ruled by Dems since the 60s or 70s and it had gone down hill.

I don't like when people are murdered either, but none of what has happened has been the Authoritarian state murding people. It was a bad call on the officers part for having his knee to high up.
 

mesonoxian

Well-known member
The disingenuity is tiring. You haven't once actually tried to push back against the concrete criticisms of anarchism and anarchy we've presented to you, instead opting to continually shift the topic of debate.
No, and I am not going to. I told you I am not debating you. Someone accused me of supporting big government, and I told them I supported no government. I have no intention of defending nor explaining anarchism to anybody on this site at this point. You can push all you want on it, I won't stop you.
So in that case they had to restrain him to allow them to change the cuffs, and since he was using his legs to try and resist they out lg cuffs on him. TO allow for easy transport

Yet why do the left prasie them and yet ridicule whites for having less slavery and human rights violations and not agreeing whites have been enslaved?

Except there was no party switch. My Prof has always been a life long democrats and has noticed that the same people are also the racists. Or does Hillary's racist comments, as with Bidens, or the various laws they made that hurt blacks more then whites?
Wierd that Republicans have done more for Blacks then the Dems, they just made it seem like there was a switch to allow for minorities to think they really were.

Hell, look at Detroit for a good example. The city has been ruled by Dems since the 60s or 70s and it had gone down hill.
I'm sorry, I am having a hard time understanding your post.

I don't think many people on the left are actual fond of China. It is an authoritarian state capitalist country with a long list of human rights violations. It isn't the boogeyman the right makes it out to be, but it is a bad place. And I don't think I have ever heard leftist praise for Saudi Arabia or the UAE. Most of us don't wantto go to war with Iran, but that is because war is a terible thing.

I can't argue against what you tell me your professor said. I can tell you that the southern strategy is a very well documented thing. It isn't some secret or conspiracy theory, it was major element iof Nixon's election.

I'm not a Democrat, so I don't have much interest in defending them, but I think Detroit was going to be in bad shape no matter what. The economic crash of the 70s, the collapse of US manufacturing, and "white flight", taking tax money to the suburbs were going to mess the place up. I won't say Detroit or Michigan weren't mismanaged, though.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
No, and I am not going to. I told you I am not debating you. Someone accused me of supporting big government, and I told them I supported no government. I have no intention of defending nor explaining anarchism to anybody on this site at this point. You can push all you want on it, I won't stop you.

I'm sorry, I am having a hard time understanding your post.

I don't think many people on the left are actual fond of China. It is an authoritarian state capitalist country with a long list of human rights violations. It isn't the boogeyman the right makes it out to be, but it is a bad place. And I don't think I have ever heard leftist praise for Saudi Arabia or the UAE. Most of us don't wantto go to war with Iran, but that is because war is a terible thing.

I can't argue against what you tell me your professor said. I can tell you that the southern strategy is a very well documented thing. It isn't some secret or conspiracy theory, it was major element iof Nixon's election.

I'm not a Democrat, so I don't have much interest in defending them, but I think Detroit was going to be in bad shape no matter what. The economic crash of the 70s, the collapse of US manufacturing, and "white flight", taking tax money to the suburbs were going to mess the place up. I won't say Detroit or Michigan weren't mismanaged, though.
oh? They seem to enjoy the Islamic culture, in which those countries are VASTLY ruled by and follow those laws. That is the main reason the left praises Muslim countries.
CHina is praised because it is against Trump and therefore Must be good! They also cover up their human rights violations.

War with Iran or China is inevitable. These next 10 years will lead to war with one or both.

And GA for example, has not had a Red GOV in a VERY long time till Sunny Perdue, who was the first one in over a 100 years.... The Dems have always been racists, it has just been that the south has started to notice the Dems are for themselves over the people
 

mesonoxian

Well-known member
oh? They seem to enjoy the Islamic culture, in which those countries are VASTLY ruled by and follow those laws. That is the main reason the left praises Muslim countries.
CHina is praised because it is against Trump and therefore Must be good! They also cover up their human rights violations.

War with Iran or China is inevitable. These next 10 years will lead to war with one or both.

And GA for example, has not had a Red GOV in a VERY long time till Sunny Perdue, who was the first one in over a 100 years.... The Dems have always been racists, it has just been that the south has started to notice the Dems are for themselves over the people
There isn't any one Islamic culture. The left is not especially fond of Islam, they are just opposed to bigotry and Muslims are targets of bigotry right now. Muslims, like Christians, come in all different political flavors, from farther left then me to fascists like ISIL.

I disagree. War with either will come only if the US seeks it, because neither will benefit from war against the US. the US won't benefit either, but some people really want to fight those two because of their role in right wing propaganda.

I won't disagree that the Democrats are more interested in power than civil rights as a party. But they are less openly hostile than the Republicans. It is an "any port in a storm" sort of situation.
 

GoldRanger

May the power protect you
Founder
What it was was one more example of the kind of violence black Americans face all the time. One that everybody got a good chance to look at, and which some people still defended. When you political opponents legitimately don't care if you are murdered, violence is inevitable.
Except white Americans face exactly this type of violence too, at a rate that corresponds to the percentage of violent crime in this population, exactly like black Americans. Also, black people suffer much more violence from each other than from the police, yet nobody seems to be too riled up about it.
 

ShieldWife

Marchioness
Ugh, back to George Floyd. He was a junkie who died of a fentanyl overdose while he was resisting arrest. It was his own actions that lead to his death - not white people, not racism, not the police trying to arrest him. That doesn’t mean that he deserved to die, but actually, he was a scum bag who had it coming, not for being high on fentanyl but because he had been engaged in a home invasion with a group of others guys - they broke into someone’s house and held her at gunpoint while they stole her stuff and threatened her to say where her valuables are. A person who does that is a terrible person. He certainly isn’t a hero. There shouldn’t be giant murals of him around like he’s a saint. He shouldn’t be mentioned in a fucking Holocaust museum. He’s just a scum bag junkie who OD’d while he was being arrested and because he was black and the cop with a knee on him was white, the world has to stop.

There are mountains of statistics and data to show that the claims of police racism against blacks is bullshit. Blacks get killed by cops at a higher rate than whites because they commit crimes at higher rates than whites. In fact, under similar circumstances, police are less likely to kill black people than white people.

Black people are indeed more likely to suffer from violence, including murder, than whites but that has nothing to do with white people, police, or racism - it’s because black people are more likely to live close to other black people who commit crimes at much higher rates than whites.

All of the BLM hoopla is because of the coordinated lies of the leftist media who try, and succeed, at stirring up racial conflict.
 
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LordsFire

Internet Wizard
YYou don't have to apologize for things you didn't do. And I specifically mentioned that China and Dubai (and you could easily throw in Saudi Arabia and Iran) do horrible things all the time.

Yeah, the Democrats were a profoundly racist party, and were pretty much since Jefferson founded them. The division between northern Democrats and the "Dixiecrats" got more and more extreme until the 1960s when Kennedy and Johnson supported the Civil Rights Act. Then Nixon engaged in the "Southern Strategy" of supporting racists in the south to win them over to the Republicans. Since then the Democrats have largely been the party of minority rights, which is a shame, because the party of Lincoln deserved better.

Oh hey look, it's the lie that never dies.

I'd love for you to go ahead and actually point out anti-black policies on the part of Republicans. I really would.

While you're at it, you can look at who has for decades controlled all the cities where blacks are murdered the most. Where blacks have trouble with police the most. Where education for blacks is the worse.

Let me give you a spoiler: They're all controlled by Democrats, and have been for Decades.

The truth is, the Republican party is not racist, and never has been racist. They're so hostile to racists in fact, that people like white nationalist Richard Spencer went to the Democrats, who espouse explicit policies of anti-white racism, instead of the Republicans.

Sure, in a party with tens of millions of members, you'll be able to find a few fringe members who are racist, but you sure as hell will not find it in the specific agenda and platform of the the party.

If you can, please show me. I've looked, and never been able to find it.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
There isn't any one Islamic culture. The left is not especially fond of Islam, they are just opposed to bigotry and Muslims are targets of bigotry right now. Muslims, like Christians, come in all different political flavors, from farther left then me to fascists like ISIL.

I disagree. War with either will come only if the US seeks it, because neither will benefit from war against the US. the US won't benefit either, but some people really want to fight those two because of their role in right wing propaganda.

I won't disagree that the Democrats are more interested in power than civil rights as a party. But they are less openly hostile than the Republicans. It is an "any port in a storm" sort of situation.
And yet, everyweehre I see Islamic culture where they decide to not embrace the culture of the country and follow their own rules things like what happened in France happen, people get beheaded for free speech.
Oh leftists don't like Muslims Hmm? Then why is criticising it seen as the ultimate sin by the left? Why is saying Sharia law horrible racist?
The left has LITERALLY endorsed Islam over Christianity because the progressive left see them as non whites therefore good. People are bigots towards Christians and Whites. Yet the left will cheer them on. You say Islam is a violent religion using their own book, you get called a bigot. I see bigotry towards me then I do towards Islamics.

Oh no, War with Iran and or China is inevitable. My job to an analyst. Looking at how things are going we will end up in war with one of the two before the end of the decade.

How are the Republicans hostile? What have they done that has hurt civil rights? DO I need to point out Bidens crime bill> COPmala Harris? I don't want my kids growing up in a jungle Clinton? (Or was it Biden?)
 

ShieldWife

Marchioness
Are Muslims the targets of bigotry now? It’s not bigotry to oppose letting people into your nation whose values radically clash with yours and who misbehave at a consistently high rate, which is the case for Islamic immigration into Europe. If I say that my home is for my family, that in my home my values should prevail, and other people’s kids can’t live here, that doesn’t mean I hate their kids or that I want to persecute them.

Speaking of Islam, you may have noticed there was a presidential election in the USA just recently and one candidate was the most dovish peace making president that America has had in decades and the other was a staunch war hawk who not only supported, but helped orchestrate wars that killed literally millions of Muslim people. Which one of those two was the right wing candidate and which one was the left wing candidate?

The left doesn’t give a damn about the lives of those millions of people of color, and not the millions more who were turned into refugees because of them. They only care about those people when they are brought to the West and can be used as weapons against people of the West.

It is in fact people on what is often thought of as the far right, nationalists like myself among others, who have most consistently opposed wars which have caused untold harm to darker skinned non-Christians who we supposedly all hate. In seeking peace, rather than conflict, in the Middle East the supposed fascist and racist Donald Trump has likely saved many tens or hundreds of thousands of lives that would have been lost under Hillary Clinton had she won and may yet still die under president Biden.

I have more compassion for Muslims and how our policies negatively affect them than almost any leftist who would call me a racist.
 

mesonoxian

Well-known member
Oh hey look, it's the lie that never dies.

I'd love for you to go ahead and actually point out anti-black policies on the part of Republicans. I really would.

While you're at it, you can look at who has for decades controlled all the cities where blacks are murdered the most. Where blacks have trouble with police the most. Where education for blacks is the worse.

Let me give you a spoiler: They're all controlled by Democrats, and have been for Decades.

The truth is, the Republican party is not racist, and never has been racist. They're so hostile to racists in fact, that people like white nationalist Richard Spencer went to the Democrats, who espouse explicit policies of anti-white racism, instead of the Republicans.

Sure, in a party with tens of millions of members, you'll be able to find a few fringe members who are racist, but you sure as hell will not find it in the specific agenda and platform of the the party.

If you can, please show me. I've looked, and never been able to find it.
First and foremost, the Republicans have used dogwhistles to make it clear to the racists they are on their side "welfare queens", "thugs", "states rights", the message is laid down and picked up just fine.

As Lee Atwater said: "You start out in 1954 by saying, "Nigger, nigger, nigger." By 1968 you can't say "nigger"—that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me—because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "Nigger, nigger." "

Because you can't legally write a law that explicitly targets black people, the Republicans have found work arounds. Some of it is obvious stuff, like fighting affirmative action and gutting the Voting Rights Act". Some of it is a bit more subtle like ADAA in 1986 treating the form of cocaine used predominantly by black people as a significantly worse offense than the kind used by white people. Or using laws to strip felons of their vote along with the grotesque overpolicing, overcharging, and oversentencing of black mean to disenfranchise large numbers of them. All things made possible by supposedly colorblind "tough on crime" legislation that allows for more severe charges for similar crimes and permit police more and more leeway for abuse.

Of course they intentionally cutting programs that benefit minorities. It hurts the poor generally, but they can get away with it by framing it in racist terms. SNAP, welfare, the ACA. And there is the vocal support of police. Hell, they treat the most anodybe statement on Earth "Black lives matter", as some sort of declaration of war. Insisting on displaying images of slavers and the Confederate flag, even though these images often date back only to the 1960s and were put up to intimidate civil rights activists.

And there is the fact that when hardcore racist groups get involved in politics they do so on the right. David Duke, the Proud Boys and Patriot Prayer, and all the rest of the degenerates. That certainly does nothing to endear them to minorities, though the Republicans used to have enough sense to reject those groups and their support for PR reasons, Trump's embrace of them has shown that PR really was the only concern.

Now about those cities where black people are murdered being run by the Democrats, that's true. That's because those cities have black populations and they aren't going to vote Republican. They have pretty good reasons for that. The police forces in those cities are much white, more suburban, and more right wing than the cities they patrol. The police, like politicians on both sides, work for capital, not the people. But the idea things would get better for the inhabitants of those cities if they voted in the party that excuses police violence and lost its mind over a black president seems unlikely to me.

And that is just the tip of the iceberg, most obvious stuff for one minority group. Getting into the nitty gritty of stuff like the history of red lining (speaking of Donald Trump) and violence against black activists or the way refugees, migrants, and hispanic people or Muslims have been treated, you could go on and on.
And yet, everyweehre I see Islamic culture where they decide to not embrace the culture of the country and follow their own rules things like what happened in France happen, people get beheaded for free speech.
Oh leftists don't like Muslims Hmm? Then why is criticising it seen as the ultimate sin by the left? Why is saying Sharia law horrible racist?
The left has LITERALLY endorsed Islam over Christianity because the progressive left see them as non whites therefore good. People are bigots towards Christians and Whites. Yet the left will cheer them on. You say Islam is a violent religion using their own book, you get called a bigot. I see bigotry towards me then I do towards Islamics.

Oh no, War with Iran and or China is inevitable. My job to an analyst. Looking at how things are going we will end up in war with one of the two before the end of the decade.

How are the Republicans hostile? What have they done that has hurt civil rights? DO I need to point out Bidens crime bill> COPmala Harris? I don't want my kids growing up in a jungle Clinton? (Or was it Biden?)
Criticising Islam is pointless, because it is like criticizing Christianity. Unless your complaint is something like "they believe in God" your criticism is almost certainly going to be wrong. I have plenty of critical things to say about the patriarchal and authoritarian strains of political Islam, the same way I do Christianity. But it isn't a generic, bigoted attack on a group of a billion people. Sharia is just Islamic law and it varies widely. The forms that exist in most places are like similar institutions that exists for Jewish people and Catholics, resolving family matters in accordance with religious authorities. The Left doesn't endorse any religion because there is no unified left to do so. They certainly don't endorse Islam. There is a far deeper leftist tradition in the Catholic Church. Leftist Islam was largely discredited in the mid 20th century/

Iran or China would be absolutely wrecked by a stright up war with the US. The US wouldn't be too pretty either. It is entirely possible for idiots to start a war at will, but it isn't in any nation involved's best interest. The only ones to profit would be the war profiteers and the vultures.
Are Muslims the targets of bigotry now? It’s not bigotry to oppose letting people into your nation whose values radically clash with yours and who misbehave at a consistently high rate, which is the case for Islamic immigration into Europe. If I say that my home is for my family, that in my home my values should prevail, and other people’s kids can’t live here, that doesn’t mean I hate their kids or that I want to persecute them.

Speaking of Islam, you may have noticed there was a presidential election in the USA just recently and one candidate was the most dovish peace making president that America has had in decades and the other was a staunch war hawk who not only supported, but helped orchestrate wars that killed literally millions of Muslim people. Which one of those two was the right wing candidate and which one was the left wing candidate?

The left doesn’t give a damn about the lives of those millions of people of color, and not the millions more who were turned into refugees because of them. They only care about those people when they are brought to the West and can be used as weapons against people of the West.

It is in fact people on what is often thought of as the far right, nationalists like myself among others, who have most consistently opposed wars which have caused untold harm to darker skinned non-Christians who we supposedly all hate. In seeking peace, rather than conflict, in the Middle East the supposed fascist and racist Donald Trump has likely saved many tens or hundreds of thousands of lives that would have been lost under Hillary Clinton had she won and may yet still die under president Biden.

I have more compassion for Muslims and how our policies negatively affect them than almost any leftist who would call me a racist.
Yeah, being convinced people from another culture are all criminals whose values "clash" with yours is pretty danged racists. Talking about "the people of the West" isn't a good look either.

You are pretty clearly ignorant of the actual leftist discourse, because Biden's role in the Obama administration's wars is the number one criticism people people bring up against him and rightly so. It was the same with Hillary Clinton. Trump has frequently flirted with starting conflicts with Iran and North Korea, though thankfully his cowardice always managed to outweigh his belligerence, and we got through his administration without massive bloodshed. (Also people around him stopping him from ordering people crossing the border shot).

I think the chances of Biden starting a war during his administration is probably less than Trump's doing so. Frankly, Trump is not a disciplined or competent person and he likes to talk big and threaten, which is a bad combination for a head of state. Obama inherited Bush's wars for the most part, and while he was more than happy to prosecute them, nothing seemed to indicate he or Biden were anxious for conflict. Even his bungling in Libya was relative short lived, and he balked and hesitated repeatedly over intervention in Syria, despite Assad crossing the supposed "red lines".

So all in all, I think Biden is the slightly better choice for avoiding war. Plus he isn't grossly incompetent nor courting the support of racists and homophobes.

But yes, in a just world Trump, Obama, Bush, and Biden would all be charged with war crimes. Trump should also be charged for his crimes against humanity at the border, and for just his ordinary graft and corruption.
 

ShieldWife

Marchioness
Yeah, being convinced people from another culture are all criminals whose values "clash" with yours is pretty danged racists. Talking about "the people of the West" isn't a good look either.
You don’t think that people who come from countries where they execute people for apostasy or homosexuality, who fundamentally oppose the concept of free speech, might have values that clash with those of the West? With those values which you pretend to support? Especially when they come from countries which have been devastated by wars supported or directly waged by western nations, they are going to tend to be hostile.

This is another example of how “racism” is nonsensical - because apparently saying how one culture’s values might clash with another’s (when they are obviously very different) is supposedly racist.

Okay, you’re right. I won’t say “people of the West” I’ll just say white people. Leftists hate white people and they only care about the lives of brown Muslims when those brown Muslim people can be used to hurt white people. When it’s a brown or black man (bonus points for a Muslim) raping a white girl, feminists suddenly don’t care so much about believing victims, in fact the whore probably deserved it for being white, culturally insensitive, and not wearing a hijab.

You are pretty clearly ignorant of the actual leftist discourse, because Biden's role in the Obama administration's wars is the number one criticism people people bring up against him and rightly so. It was the same with Hillary Clinton. Trump has frequently flirted with starting conflicts with Iran and North Korea, though thankfully his cowardice always managed to outweigh his belligerence, and we got through his administration without massive bloodshed. (Also people around him stopping him from ordering people crossing the border shot).

I think the chances of Biden starting a war during his administration is probably less than Trump's doing so. Frankly, Trump is not a disciplined or competent person and he likes to talk big and threaten, which is a bad combination for a head of state. Obama inherited Bush's wars for the most part, and while he was more than happy to prosecute them, nothing seemed to indicate he or Biden were anxious for conflict. Even his bungling in Libya was relative short lived, and he balked and hesitated repeatedly over intervention in Syria, despite Assad crossing the supposed "red lines".

So all in all, I think Biden is the slightly better choice for avoiding war. Plus he isn't grossly incompetent nor courting the support of racists and homophobes.

But yes, in a just world Trump, Obama, Bush, and Biden would all be charged with war crimes. Trump should also be charged for his crimes against humanity at the border, and for just his ordinary graft and corruption.
Oh yes, a handful of leftists like to criticize Biden about this or that, say that he is too conservative or other such nonsense. When the rubber meets the road, they support him and in fact the leftists will basically support any agenda that billionaire bankers, CEO’s, and media moguls tell them to support as long as it’s accompanied with criticism of white men.

Biden wasn’t just dragged along to wars. Biden was the chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee when he voted for George W. Bush’s Iraq War. Obama heavily supported the Syrian Civil War, even going so far as to arm ISIS to help overthrow Assad, and he was likely only stopped from escalating further because war there was unpopular and he ran for president pretending to be a dove. There is also bombing in Yemen which Obama supported, continued presence in Iraq and Afghanistan, and countless drone strikes.

It was Barack Obama who wanted to go to war but was too cowardly, not Trump. Obama waged wars with drone strikes and proxies. Hillary Clinton ran on escalating the Syrian Civil War.

Trump not only avoided war in practice, he ran on avoiding war. That was part of his platform and his bold and principled stand on that helped transform the GOP for the better. Donald Trump got up in front of the entire Republican Party and said that the Iraq War was terrible and George Bush was bad for starting it. Donald Trump actually mentioned the dangers of the military industrial complex and all that the left could do is cover their ears and shout “Orange Man bad!” Trump reduced involvement in Syria, he sought peace agreements with North Korea, he could have bombed Iran after they fired missiles at our base but he said that he didn’t want to needlessly kill Iranians. One could argue that he escalated with Iran, but as we see, no war resulted from that and Trump actually acted with restraint.

How have establishment warmongers responding differently to Biden and Trump? Well, when they had the Democratic Convention, a number of old Bush administration warhawks, including Colin Powell, endorsed Biden. McCains and Bushes supported Biden. The Never-Trump Republicans who supported Hillary or Biden (many of which are high level GOP people who know what is going on behind the scenes) often opposed Trump because of his more non-interventionist foreign policy. Even many of the neo-cons that Trump foolishly choose to surround himself with (like John Bolton) worked to undermine his attempts at achieving greater peace.

When Trump sought peace, the left wing media accused him of being a pawn for Putin, because apparently the left now thinks that being against war makes you a traitor. They said the same thing about anti-war Democrat Tulsi Gabbard.

I’ve been anti-war for a long time, I was even involved in anti-war protests back when Bush was in office and the left at least paid lip service to peace back then as long as it could be used as a club to hit Bush with. Now, they don’t even do that, they support what ever war the TV set tells them to, because racism, Russia, Orange Man or whatever. In my mind, perhaps because I have so long been an anti-war activist, it is one of the most blatant displays of the left’s lack of principles.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
First and foremost, the Republicans have used dogwhistles to make it clear to the racists they are on their side "welfare queens", "thugs", "states rights", the message is laid down and picked up just fine.

As Lee Atwater said: "You start out in 1954 by saying, "Nigger, nigger, nigger." By 1968 you can't say "nigger"—that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me—because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "Nigger, nigger." "

Because you can't legally write a law that explicitly targets black people, the Republicans have found work arounds. Some of it is obvious stuff, like fighting affirmative action and gutting the Voting Rights Act". Some of it is a bit more subtle like ADAA in 1986 treating the form of cocaine used predominantly by black people as a significantly worse offense than the kind used by white people. Or using laws to strip felons of their vote along with the grotesque overpolicing, overcharging, and oversentencing of black mean to disenfranchise large numbers of them. All things made possible by supposedly colorblind "tough on crime" legislation that allows for more severe charges for similar crimes and permit police more and more leeway for abuse.

Of course they intentionally cutting programs that benefit minorities. It hurts the poor generally, but they can get away with it by framing it in racist terms. SNAP, welfare, the ACA. And there is the vocal support of police. Hell, they treat the most anodybe statement on Earth "Black lives matter", as some sort of declaration of war. Insisting on displaying images of slavers and the Confederate flag, even though these images often date back only to the 1960s and were put up to intimidate civil rights activists.

And there is the fact that when hardcore racist groups get involved in politics they do so on the right. David Duke, the Proud Boys and Patriot Prayer, and all the rest of the degenerates. That certainly does nothing to endear them to minorities, though the Republicans used to have enough sense to reject those groups and their support for PR reasons, Trump's embrace of them has shown that PR really was the only concern.

Now about those cities where black people are murdered being run by the Democrats, that's true. That's because those cities have black populations and they aren't going to vote Republican. They have pretty good reasons for that. The police forces in those cities are much white, more suburban, and more right wing than the cities they patrol. The police, like politicians on both sides, work for capital, not the people. But the idea things would get better for the inhabitants of those cities if they voted in the party that excuses police violence and lost its mind over a black president seems unlikely to me.

And that is just the tip of the iceberg, most obvious stuff for one minority group. Getting into the nitty gritty of stuff like the history of red lining (speaking of Donald Trump) and violence against black activists or the way refugees, migrants, and hispanic people or Muslims have been treated, you could go on and on.

So basically, telepathy, IE 'I know their real motives,' and rationalization.

If the Democrats control the state government, the city government, and the police department, and have for a long time, there is no justification for claiming that it's racist right-wingers that are causing the problems. That's naked BS.

If the Democrats have controlled the state government, the city government, and the board of education for a long time, there's no justification for blaming racist right-wingers for the failure of those systems to serve black People.


I deal with facts.

It is a fact that Democrat-controlled areas are worse for blacks.

It is a fact that under President Obama, racial relations drastically worsened, and black unemployment skyrocketed.

It is a fact that under Trump, Black unemployment hit the lowest since it started being recorded.

It is a fact that Republicans have been the primary supporters of voucher programs for schooling, and Democrats have been the primary opponents. It is a fact that these schools are so much better than standard public schools, the waiting lists are generally thousands or tens of thousands of people long.

It is a fact that while David Duke was in the Republican party after the Dems kicked him out, he was denounced by party leadership and pushed out.

It is a fact that the so called 'racist' Proud Boys are in fact led by and include a wide variety of ethnic minorities in their leadership.

It is a fact that groups like Antifa have repeatedly been caught calling minorities racist slurs if they oppose Antifa.


You can go on about 'narratives' and 'dog whistles' and 'secret indirect legal attacks' all you want. Maybe with that last one, you're even right some of the time.

But the facts are that when Democrats are in charge, things are worse for blacks. When Republicans are in charge, things get better.

There are three possibilities:

1. There is no meaningful difference in racial effects of the parties, and these results are unrelated to who is in power.
2. The Democrats are the worst anti-racists ever, and the Republicans are the worst at being racists ever.
3. The Democrats are actually racists, and the Republicans are not.

The facts support the third outcome. The 'Southern strategy' resulting in all the racist democrats switching sides is myth, pure and simple. Two of the 'Dixiecrats' left the Democrats for the Republican party, and they were never allowed to run on things like segregation ever again. Conversely, people like Robert Byrd, an actual member of the KKK, remained in the Democrat Party as a Senator for forty some years. Hillary called him a 'mentor,' and Biden delivered his eulogy.

Republicans and Conservatives oppose things like Affirmative Action, because we oppose all forms of racism. If you want to run a charity that only benefits minorities, to help them overcome any disadvantages they face, by all means go ahead and do so. However, it violates the law to bias hiring or university acceptance for immutible characteristics such as race, and that cuts both ways, and by 'law' I mean both legal and moral.

'Black Lives Matter' as a statement, I absolutely agree with, and so has every and any Conservative I have ever known. 'Black Lives Matter' as an organization has started and participated in riots that have killed more black people in a matter of months, than cops kill unarmed black people in a year. They're also explicitly marxists, and have stated (though they finally removed it from their site after months) that they want to destroy the nuclear family. I am opposed to them as I am opposed to any other organization with a habit of rampant assault and property destruction, topped off with supporting genocidal ideologies.

Let's hit a few more facts on racial matters:
5QIm9TZ.jpg


Do you see those numbers and proportions? Do you understand the significance of those proportions?

'Whites' compose 73% of the population. 'Black or African American' is 12.7 of the population. That means that if race had no bearing whatsoever on violence, white on black violence would be almost 6x as common as black on white violence, because there's almost six times as many whites as blacks.

But it isn't. In fact, the ratio is almost 9:1 black on white violence, which when you combine it with the population ratio, means that per-capita blacks are 54x more violent against whites than whites are against blacks.

Why are we not hearing about this apparent epidemic of racist violence against whites?

Because it's not politically useful.

Would it be easy to justify using these statistics to hold racist attitudes against blacks? Yes, absolutely.

I don't think race has anything to do with it. I think the difference between Ben Carson and David Duke isn't their race, it's the decisions they made with how to live the live that they had. David Duke chose to become a racist grifter, Ben Carson chose to overcome great obstacles and become arguably the greatest brain surgeon in the world.

The facts show that Democrat policies are consistently either ineffective, or full up counter-productive.

Republican policies sometimes are ineffective, sometimes are counter-productive, but at least as often as not are effective.

And the more they're based on Conservative principles, the more effective they are.


Conservatives believe in all people being equal before the eyes of God, or for secular conservatives, at least equal before the eyes of the law. That explicitly is not something that the Democrats believe in, so even if the nonsense about dogwhistles was correct, the Democrats would still demonstrably be the more racist party, in what they say, what they do, and what the consequences of those words and actions are.

This ties heavily into why I'm a conservative, or conservative/libertarian by the way some measure it.
 

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
First and foremost, the Republicans have used dogwhistles to make it clear to the racists they are on their side "welfare queens", "thugs", "states rights", the message is laid down and picked up just fine.

As Lee Atwater said: "You start out in 1954 by saying, "Nigger, nigger, nigger." By 1968 you can't say "nigger"—that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me—because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "Nigger, nigger." "

What I'm seeing there is... people like this Lee Atwater think that everything revolves around black people, and they project that mindset onto their political opponents. And this leads them to ignore what other people actually say, and pretend they said something else entirely. So we find that trying to reason with the Left is like dealing with a clinically insane person who lives in a private world of his own hallucinations.

Most people would rather pay lower taxes than higher ones. Why should be obvious to any normal person. But not to an Atwater, for whom everything is all about black people. (Maybe black people don't like high taxes too, have you thought of that?)

And this is poison to normal political debate. Instead of discussion towards common wisdom, there's just acrimony and accusation. Because the Left do not want debate. They want to be free to impose their own will on everyone else, and they think we're being horrible to them when we refuse to let them have everything and leave nothing for anyone else.
 
D

Deleted member 88

Guest
Lee Atwater basically acknowledged that people do think in racial terms. It was just that in the post civil rights era, White identity and interests became verboten and could only be expressed implicitly. Not explicitly.

The quote is often used by Liberals as a way of saying "republican voters are racist", the proper way for it to be interpreted is Republican voters "want to protect and defend their racial identity and interests".

As only Whites are forbidden socially from pursuing an explicit group based identity politics, and must rely on an implicit identity politics.
 

mesonoxian

Well-known member
What I'm seeing there is... people like this Lee Atwater think that everything revolves around black people, and they project that mindset onto their political opponents. And this leads them to ignore what other people actually say, and pretend they said something else entirely. So we find that trying to reason with the Left is like dealing with a clinically insane person who lives in a private world of his own hallucinations.

Most people would rather pay lower taxes than higher ones. Why should be obvious to any normal person. But not to an Atwater, for whom everything is all about black people. (Maybe black people don't like high taxes too, have you thought of that?)

And this is poison to normal political debate. Instead of discussion towards common wisdom, there's just acrimony and accusation. Because the Left do not want debate. They want to be free to impose their own will on everyone else, and they think we're being horrible to them when we refuse to let them have everything and leave nothing for anyone else.
Lee Atwater was a Republican strategist.
Lee Atwater basically acknowledged that people do think in racial terms. It was just that in the post civil rights era, White identity and interests became verboten and could only be expressed implicitly. Not explicitly.

The quote is often used by Liberals as a way of saying "republican voters are racist", the proper way for it to be interpreted is Republican voters "want to protect and defend their racial identity and interests".

As only Whites are forbidden socially from pursuing an explicit group based identity politics, and must rely on an implicit identity politics.
Deciding to hurt people because they aren't the same race as you is bad.

So basically, telepathy, IE 'I know their real motives,' and rationalization.

If the Democrats control the state government, the city government, and the police department, and have for a long time, there is no justification for claiming that it's racist right-wingers that are causing the problems. That's naked BS.

If the Democrats have controlled the state government, the city government, and the board of education for a long time, there's no justification for blaming racist right-wingers for the failure of those systems to serve black People.


I deal with facts.

It is a fact that Democrat-controlled areas are worse for blacks.

It is a fact that under President Obama, racial relations drastically worsened, and black unemployment skyrocketed.

It is a fact that under Trump, Black unemployment hit the lowest since it started being recorded.

It is a fact that Republicans have been the primary supporters of voucher programs for schooling, and Democrats have been the primary opponents. It is a fact that these schools are so much better than standard public schools, the waiting lists are generally thousands or tens of thousands of people long.



It is a fact that while David Duke was in the Republican party after the Dems kicked him out, he was denounced by party leadership and pushed out.

It is a fact that the so called 'racist' Proud Boys are in fact led by and include a wide variety of ethnic minorities in their leadership.

It is a fact that groups like Antifa have repeatedly been caught calling minorities racist slurs if they oppose Antifa.
It's a fact that just about all cities with a black majority population vote Democrat because they know what the Republicans are.

It's a fact that unemployment went up in 2008 because the economy cratered under GW Bush and racial tensions increased because Republicans freaked out about having a black president.

It's a fact that when people give up on trying to find a job, they are no longer counted as unemployed.

It's a fact school vouchers serve as a way to channel public funds to charter school scam artists and right wing private schools while killing public schools.

It's a fact the Democrats kicked David Duke out, while Trump accepted his endorsement.

It's a fact the Proud Boys are a bunch of dumbasses. It isn't relevant, but they are.

And it is apparently a fact that you don't know what Antifa is.
 
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Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Lee Atwater was a Republican strategist.

Deciding to hurt people because they aren't the same race as you is bad.


It's a fact that just about all cities with a black majority population vote Democrat because they know what the Republicans are.

It's a fact that unemployment went up in 2008 because the economy cratered under GW Bush and racial tensions increased because Republicans freaked out about having a black president.

It's a fact that when people give up on trying to find a job, they are no longer counted as unemployed.

It's a fact school vouchers serve as a way to channel public funds to charter school scam artists and right wing private schools while killing public schools.

It's a fact the Democrats kicked David Duke out, while Trump accepted his endorsement.

It's a fact the Proud Boys are a bunch of dumbasses. It isn't relevant, but they are.

And it is apparently a fact that you don't know what Antifa is.
Its a fact that Blacks in cities are worse off then blacks in red states and counties.

It's a fact that Biden said Byrd was s avoid guy.

It is a fact that Biden law bill caused more black Americans to be jailed then anything republican
 

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