WI: German-Soviet Peace, 1943

History Learner

Well-known member
In March of 1943, Anti-Hitler conservatives in the German Army launched Operation Flash, arguably one of the closest times Hitler came to an unnatural death. Incredibly, however, all three attempts on March 17th failed, and Hitler carried on as the ruler of Germany until his death in 1945 despite the close call of the July 22nd, 1944 bombing effort. What if he hadn't and had been successfully killed? One effect, I believe, is that there would've been a separate peace in the East between the Soviets and Nazis.

In 1943 the USSR was still tottering on the brink of collapse due to starvation and was experiencing a severe manpower crisis too. Stalingrad was a great victory, to be sure, but it was actually not the main effort; that was Operation Mars against Army Group Center near Moscow, which saw 9:1 losses in the favor of the Germans. Operation Mars is, in part, why Operation Little Saturn was the way it turned out. Originally it was to be "Operation Saturn" and envisioned a Soviet thrust to Rostov, which would've encircled not only Army Group B around Stalingrad but also Army Group A in the Kuban and Northern Caucasus too. Manstein's Operation Winter Storm prevented this, allowing for Army Group A to escape and then Manstein compounded his success by performing Third Kharkov, which brought the Soviet advance to a complete halt with massive losses and shifted the momentum back to the Germans.

Thus, until the Summer with the Battle of Kursk, both sides were in a stalemate and reluctant to act as both recognized that a misstep at this point would be fatal. In the context of this strategic situation, Stalin was willing to seek a compromise peace, it was only Hitler's intransigence which prevented it:

Stalin and the Prospects of a Separate Peace in World War II
The Spectre of a Separate Peace in the East: Russo-German 'Peace Feelers', 1942-44

Besides the linked articles, A World At Arms by Gerhard L. Weinberg (1994) and Hitler's War by Heinz Magenheimer (1998) support it. I don't have access to Magenheimer, but I do have Weinberg and I'll quote from that.

Page 609:

Until access to Soviet archives enables scholars to see more clearly into these murky episodes, this author will remain convinced that it was the shock of German military revival so soon after the great Soviet victory at Stalingrad which reinforced Stalin's inclinations during 1943 to contemplate the possibility of either a separate peace with Hitler's Germany or with some alternative German government. With the road to Berlin so obviously a difficult one, the temptation to sound possible alternatives was enormous. Surely by now the Germans must realize that their hopes of defeating the Soviet Union were illusory. The German government had had sense enough in 1939 to work out an accommodation with the Soviet Union on terms both sides had found advantageous; the same people were still in charge in Berlin. In the winter of 1940-41 they had refused to reply to the Soviet proposals for Russia to join the Tripartite Pact, but instead had insisted on attacking her; perhaps in the interim they had learned better in the hard school of war.​
As for the Soviet Union, she had demonstrated conclusively that she could defend herself, but this defense had been immensely costly. A new agreement with Germany would provide a breathing space for reconstruction and recovery, would remove German occupation without either further Red Army casualties or economic destruction, and would leave the Soviet Union dominant in all of Eastern Europe, especially in Poland where a Soviet puppet government would replace the pre-war regime. It may have been known to the Soviet government that there were elements in the German government and military apparatus who wanted an agreement with Moscow, and it was certainly known that Japan was very strongly in favor of a German-Soviet peace.​

Pg 610:

On the Soviet side, the position appears to have been that Germany must evacuate all the occupied territory, certainly to the 1941 border, possibly later on, after the Soviet victory in July 1943, back to the 1914 border (thus turning over central Poland to the Soviet Union). German Foreign Minister von Ribbentrop appears to have been at least slightly interested in some compromise peace; he saw himself as the architect of the 1939 pact with the Soviet Union and had always given priority to the war against Great Britain. Joseph Goebbels, the Minister of Propaganda, favored negotiations with Stalin and so advised Hitler, almost certainly much more strongly than von Ribbentrop. Hitler, however, was unwilling to have any negotiations with the Soviet Union. Some of the sources make a great deal out of his suspicions about a key intermediary in Stockholm being Jewish, but Hitler's explanations to Goebbels and Oshima go to the core of the issue: he wanted to keep territory, especially the Ukraine, which he was certain Stalin would not give up; and on this point, if no other, his assessment of the Soviet Union was certainly correct. While Stalin might have been willing to negotiate about territory to the west of the 1941 border of the country, he was certainly not about to leave the Germans in occupation of portions of it, least of all the rich agricultural and industrial areas of the Ukraine. The latter would, if necessary, be retaken in battle, and in the fall of 1943 and the winter of 1943-44 that is exactly what the Red Army did.​
 
Would the Germans have taken such a great risk? They had gained massive territories and resources and many still thought that they could win, or at least force a compromise peace. To accept Stalin's demands would concede all those resources, which as you have mentioned elsewhere were very important economically and demographically to both sides. The Red Army had already inflicted heavy losses on the Germans and was looking likely to grow even stronger. To give them such resources and put them on the border of both Germany and Romania would invite a Soviet attack at a time of his choosing which would be virtually impossible to stop unless Germany maintained massive forces on the new border line. Even if they didn't have good reason not to trust Stalin their paranoia would almost certainly prevent them from accepting such a deal. Plus it would be a huge blow to German/Nazi prestige and morale.

As such even if Hitler was assassinated and a stable government was quickly formed to replace him I can't see that government accepting such terms. They might provide an alternative to Hitler suggestion of the Baltics and the Dnieper which might work if Stalin was prepared to compromise but again you have the issue of mutual trust [or lack of] between the two states.

Steve
 
Would the Germans have taken such a great risk? They had gained massive territories and resources and many still thought that they could win, or at least force a compromise peace. To accept Stalin's demands would concede all those resources, which as you have mentioned elsewhere were very important economically and demographically to both sides. The Red Army had already inflicted heavy losses on the Germans and was looking likely to grow even stronger. To give them such resources and put them on the border of both Germany and Romania would invite a Soviet attack at a time of his choosing which would be virtually impossible to stop unless Germany maintained massive forces on the new border line. Even if they didn't have good reason not to trust Stalin their paranoia would almost certainly prevent them from accepting such a deal. Plus it would be a huge blow to German/Nazi prestige and morale.

As such even if Hitler was assassinated and a stable government was quickly formed to replace him I can't see that government accepting such terms. They might provide an alternative to Hitler suggestion of the Baltics and the Dnieper which might work if Stalin was prepared to compromise but again you have the issue of mutual trust [or lack of] between the two states.

Steve

As noted by Weinberg, outside of Hitler most in the Nazi Government were in favor of some kind of deal. Outside of Goebbels and Ribbentrop, Himmler would conduct outreaches to the Soviets as late as the Fall of 1944, for example. Stalingrad had greatly shook the German Army, and was the reasoning behind Operation Flash; elements in the Army, including sympathizers in every single HQ of the Army Groups in Russia, thought Hitler must go if there was any hope to salvage the situation. During the situation around Moscow in late 1941, many had advocated for pulling back to the 1941 border anyway, so the exact terms of Stalin were acceptable and the idea of a compromise peace-which is what this proposed offer was-found agreement with everyone except Hitler. On the whole, it would seem, there was no structural prevention of a peace deal beyond that of the Fuhrer himself.

As far as the scope of such a deal, as Weinberg notes, the Soviets were open to a new deal on the basis of the 1939-1941 agreements, including the economic ones. They had even proposed such, in undefined terms, to Himmler's SS envoy in 1943-1944. The Germans could rest easy knowing that the Soviets would take years to rebuild and that, by making the deal with them, the Soviets would sunder their relationship with the Anglo-Americans, cutting off Lend Lease supplies so vital to maintaining the Red Army's mobility and logistics. Even if it didn't, based on their own experience, it would take at least a year of preparation for the Soviets to backstab the Germans from the 1941 borders, meaning they would have ample time to prepare for such.
 
As noted by Weinberg, outside of Hitler most in the Nazi Government were in favor of some kind of deal. Outside of Goebbels and Ribbentrop, Himmler would conduct outreaches to the Soviets as late as the Fall of 1944, for example. Stalingrad had greatly shook the German Army, and was the reasoning behind Operation Flash; elements in the Army, including sympathizers in every single HQ of the Army Groups in Russia, thought Hitler must go if there was any hope to salvage the situation. During the situation around Moscow in late 1941, many had advocated for pulling back to the 1941 border anyway, so the exact terms of Stalin were acceptable and the idea of a compromise peace-which is what this proposed offer was-found agreement with everyone except Hitler. On the whole, it would seem, there was no structural prevention of a peace deal beyond that of the Fuhrer himself.

Sympathisers doesn't mean widespread support. Also 1st I've heard of many arguing for a withdraw to the pre-attack borders in late 41. Let alone during the Soviet approach in spring 43.

As far as the scope of such a deal, as Weinberg notes, the Soviets were open to a new deal on the basis of the 1939-1941 agreements, including the economic ones. They had even proposed such, in undefined terms, to Himmler's SS envoy in 1943-1944. The Germans could rest easy knowing that the Soviets would take years to rebuild and that, by making the deal with them, the Soviets would sunder their relationship with the Anglo-Americans, cutting off Lend Lease supplies so vital to maintaining the Red Army's mobility and logistics. Even if it didn't, based on their own experience, it would take at least a year of preparation for the Soviets to backstab the Germans from the 1941 borders, meaning they would have ample time to prepare for such.

Could the Germans rest easy? The Soviets had totally surprised the Germans repeatedly in their endurance and production of new units and equipment - albeit that this was partly due to L-L but the Germans are unlikely to have known details of that. The big issues would be reconverting railway lines that the Germans had converted to standard gauge and reestablishing Soviet rule over areas that had been under German control. With the exception of the Baltic region and parts of the western Ukraine that is unlikely to be a massive issue.

Steve
 
Sympathisers doesn't mean widespread support. Also 1st I've heard of many arguing for a withdraw to the pre-attack borders in late 41. Let alone during the Soviet approach in spring 43.

Could the Germans rest easy? The Soviets had totally surprised the Germans repeatedly in their endurance and production of new units and equipment - albeit that this was partly due to L-L but the Germans are unlikely to have known details of that. The big issues would be reconverting railway lines that the Germans had converted to standard gauge and reestablishing Soviet rule over areas that had been under German control. With the exception of the Baltic region and parts of the western Ukraine that is unlikely to be a massive issue.

Steve

For removing Hitler? In the rank and file, probably not, but that's a different issue to make a compromise peace. Goebbels, Ribbentrop, Goering, and Himmler were behind such and, as Weinberg notes, Stalin was aware many of the German Army's Generals had also reached the same conclusion of the need for a Diplomatic end to the war. With a new government in place, there would be no structural issues to prevent such a move.

Now, as far as the Germans after the peace, they were well aware of the Soviet issues entering the Spring of 1943. German military intelligence was able to accurately detect the ongoing manpower crisis in the USSR and they were aware of Lend Lease; they had been pushing for a joint offensive with the Finns since February of 1942 to cut off the Murmansk Railway in order to shut down the Northern route, and efforts to intercept convoys had led to victories like PQ-17 but also defeats, like the Battle of the Barents Sea fought in December of 1942. Based off their own experience of preparing for Barbarossa and then their logistical issues in 1941-1942, a year's time would be a reasonable estimate for the Germans to make and likely very much the truth into what the Soviets could do. This does, however, rely on the idea Stalin would seek to re-enter the war which I doubt he could do based off the loss of Lend Lease.

As far as a historical note, in 1945 in the Baltics and Ukraine there was 150,000 Anti-Soviet partisans, so the ability of the Soviets to stably re-assert their rule should not be taken as a given.
 
For removing Hitler? In the rank and file, probably not, but that's a different issue to make a compromise peace. Goebbels, Ribbentrop, Goering, and Himmler were behind such and, as Weinberg notes, Stalin was aware many of the German Army's Generals had also reached the same conclusion of the need for a Diplomatic end to the war. With a new government in place, there would be no structural issues to prevent such a move.

Even in 44 after the writing was really on the wall most of the military as well as the political figures stood by Hitler. Just because assorted top Nazis were arguing for a separate peace in the east [or said so afterwards possibly?] doesn't mean they would agree to the assassination of Hitler or the removal of the Nazi party from power by a military coup. Also as you say much of the rank and file were radicalised by Nazi propaganda so there is likely to be problems there.

Now, as far as the Germans after the peace, they were well aware of the Soviet issues entering the Spring of 1943. German military intelligence was able to accurately detect the ongoing manpower crisis in the USSR and they were aware of Lend Lease; they had been pushing for a joint offensive with the Finns since February of 1942 to cut off the Murmansk Railway in order to shut down the Northern route, and efforts to intercept convoys had led to victories like PQ-17 but also defeats, like the Battle of the Barents Sea fought in December of 1942. Based off their own experience of preparing for Barbarossa and then their logistical issues in 1941-1942, a year's time would be a reasonable estimate for the Germans to make and likely very much the truth into what the Soviets could do. This does, however, rely on the idea Stalin would seek to re-enter the war which I doubt he could do based off the loss of Lend Lease.

A manpower crisis that didn't stop them waging aggressive warfare and taking further heavy losses over the next couple of years. Also a crisis that in part they overcame by conscripting people from the areas they 'liberated'. Your now suggesting Germany gives then both relief from those casualties and access to even more manpower from those areas - without another couple of years of bitter fighting and German forced labour drafts.

Stalin might not re-enter the war in the short term but the Germans would be bloody foolish to assume they could trust his word not to attack at all, or to make any resource deliveries once he had his hands on the territory. Or he could attack the Nazis a couple of years down the line, once his forces had been upgraded and better trained and the Germans worn down by the western powers.

As far as a historical note, in 1945 in the Baltics and Ukraine there was 150,000 Anti-Soviet partisans, so the ability of the Soviets to stably re-assert their rule should not be taken as a given.

Yes the Soviets faced a problem with in some areas let to low level resistance for several years. It didn't stop them waging war against Germany OTL so in a position where their stronger that's not going to be a serious problem.

Steve
 
Even in 44 after the writing was really on the wall most of the military as well as the political figures stood by Hitler. Just because assorted top Nazis were arguing for a separate peace in the east [or said so afterwards possibly?] doesn't mean they would agree to the assassination of Hitler or the removal of the Nazi party from power by a military coup. Also as you say much of the rank and file were radicalised by Nazi propaganda so there is likely to be problems there.

Ah, I think understand the issue here.

Operation Flash was conducted by Anti-Hitler elements in the Army, not the party like Goebbels or Himmler; indeed, as the article points out, they attempted to kill Himmler too on the same day. Thus, they did not and would not authorize the assassination attempt, namely because it was being done by people who had nothing to do with them. The suggestion I'm making, however, is what comes after Hitler is killed. His designated successor was Goering, and with Goebbels and Ribbentrop for a peace, surprisingly backed by Himmler, I have no doubt Goering would open such open given historically he had concerns with Operation Barbarossa.

A manpower crisis that didn't stop them waging aggressive warfare and taking further heavy losses over the next couple of years. Also a crisis that in part they overcame by conscripting people from the areas they 'liberated'. Your now suggesting Germany gives then both relief from those casualties and access to even more manpower from those areas - without another couple of years of bitter fighting and German forced labour drafts.

Stalin might not re-enter the war in the short term but the Germans would be bloody foolish to assume they could trust his word not to attack at all, or to make any resource deliveries once he had his hands on the territory. Or he could attack the Nazis a couple of years down the line, once his forces had been upgraded and better trained and the Germans worn down by the western powers.

Okay, a lot to unpack here so I'm going to be using a lot of citations here; sorry if its a lot to read!

Bagration, 1944, Osprey Campaign Series -

"Soviet rifle divisions were generally smaller than their German counterparts, averaging 2500-4000 troops. At the time of Operation Bagration a concerted effort was made to bring these units up to an average of 6000 troops. No serious effort was made to bring them up to their nominal TOE strength of 9600 troops."​

Red Army Handbook, 1939-1945, by Steven J. Zaloga -

"By this time, however, it was becoming apparent that the Soviet force structure of 500-plus Divisions simply exceeded their capacity to support it. [..] in mid-1944 more drastic action was necessary. Either some of the rifle divisions would have to be demobilized and their personnel used to fill out other units, or divisional strengths far below envisioned norms would have to be accepted. The Stavka opted for the latter alternative."​

Soviet Military Doctrine from Lenin to Gorbachev, 1915-1991, by Willard C. Frank -

"Soviet sources reflect manpower deficiencies by emphasizing the low strength of rifle units and the draconian measures used to enlist soldiers in liberated regions. By 1945 Soviet rifle divisions were often under strength, with only 3,500 to 5,000 men each."​

Thus, even with the recovery of Belarus and Ukraine over the course of 1943-1944, the manpower situation of the Red Army continued to be critical. They, however, had two saving graces: they, unlike the Germans, were not fighting a two front war and they had Lend Lease, which enabled them to focus their manpower in a way the Germans could not. That last one is critical, because with the event of peace, the Soviets lose that advantage. To give context to this, I return to Sokolov for citations.

Boris V. Sokolov (2007). The role of lend‐lease in Soviet military efforts, 1941–1945, The Journal of Slavic Military Studies: Vol. 7, issue 3, pages 567-586:

One of the bottlenecks of the Soviet economy before the war was the production of aviation and, to a lesser extent, automobile gasoline. High-octane benzoins were especially lacking. So, in 1941, on the eve of the war, the need for aviation gasoline B-78 was satisfied by only 4%. {7} In 1940, the USSR produced 889 thousand tons of aviation gasoline, in 1941 - 1269 thousand tons, in 1942 - 912, in 1943 - 1007, in 1944 - 1334 and in 194 5. - 1017 thousand tons. {8} In total, during the war years in the United States under Lend-Lease and within the framework of Soviet orders, 666 thousand tons of aviation gasoline were delivered, of which, after shipment, 37.65 thousand tons were redirected to other places, so that the net delivery was 628.4 thousand tons. {9}In addition, the net supply of light gasoline fractions from the USA to the USSR reached 732.3 thousand tons.In addition, Great Britain supplied 14.7 thousand tons of aviation gasoline and 902.1 thousand tons of light gasoline fractions to the USSR from the Abadan oil refinery ( these supplies were reimbursed by the United Kingdom (USA). To this must also be added 573 thousand tons of aviation gasoline supplied to the USSR from oil refineries in Great Britain and Canada. {ten}In total, all this gives 2850.5 thousand short tons of aviation gasoline and light gasoline fractions received by the USSR from the USA, Great Britain and Canada, which is equal to 2586 thousand metric tons. In the Soviet Union, imported aviation gasoline and light gasoline fractions were used almost exclusively for mixing with Soviet aviation gasoline in order to increase their octane number, since Soviet aircraft were adapted to use gasolines with a much lower octane number than in the West. Suffice it to say that more than 97% of imported gasoline had an octane rating of 99 and higher, while in the USSR, as we have already seen, there was even B-78 gasoline in a huge deficit. Therefore, in fact, the aviation gasoline supplied under the Lend-Lease was included in the Soviet production of aviation gasoline and amounted, therefore (together with light gasoline fractions), 51, 5% of Soviet production 1941-1945 If we subtract from the total Soviet aviation gasoline production for the first half of 1941, estimating it at about half of the annual production, then the share of supplies under Lend-Lease will rise to 57.8%. It turns out that the deliveries under Lend-Lease of aviation gasoline, which took place from August 1941 to September 1945, were 1.4 times higher than the actual Soviet production. From other sources of aviation gasoline supply, the USSR was able to capture in 1944-1945. 82.8 thousand tons of trophy gasoline in Romania, Poland, Hungary and Czechoslovakia, to September 1945, which was a drop in the ocean. It is obvious that without Western supplies of fuel, Soviet aviation simply would not have been able to support its troops in the required volume. It should also be taken into account that due to the much higher octane numbers of western aviation gasoline, its role in providing Soviet aviation was actually even more significant than could be concluded from weight alone.​

Further:

The Red Army's vehicle fleet was also largely secured by Western supplies. The production of cars in the USSR in 1940 amounted to 145 390, in 1941 - 124 476, in 1942 - 34 976, in 1943 - 49 266, in 1944 - 60 549, in 1945 - 74 757. {15} At the same time, in the first half of the year 1941 was produced 73.2 thousand cars, and in the second - only 46.1 thousand {16} , so that from the beginning of the war until the end of 1945, the total production of cars can be determined at 265.6 thousand units. During the war years, 409.5 thousand cars were delivered from the USA to the USSR, which is 1.5 times higher than Soviet production during the war years. By the end of the war (as of May 1, 1945), cars delivered under Lend-Lease accounted for 32.8% in the Red Army's car park (58.1% were domestically produced cars and 9.1% were captured cars).{17}Taking into account the greater carrying capacity and better quality, the role of American vehicles was even higher ("Studebakers", in particular, were used as artillery tractors). The pre-war fleet of Soviet cars (both in the Red Army and withdrawn from the national economy at the beginning of the war) was badly worn out. Before the war, the needs of the Red Army in motor transport were determined at 744 thousand cars and 92 thousand tractors, while there were 272.6 thousand cars and 42 thousand tractors in stock. It was planned to withdraw 240 thousand cars from the national economy, including 210 thousand trucks (GAZ-AA and ZIS-5), however, due to the severe wear of the vehicle fleet (for passenger cars, cars belonging to the 1st and 2nd categories , i.e., not requiring immediate repair, was 45%,{18} Obviously, without Western supplies, the Red Army would not have acquired the degree of mobility that it possessed at least from the middle of 1943, although until the end of the war, the use of motor vehicles was constrained by a lack of gasoline.​
Also, the functioning of Soviet railroad transport would have been impossible without Lend-Lease. Production of railway rails (including the narrow gauge rail) in the USSR varied as follows (in kt.) 1940 - 1360 1941 - 874 1942 - 112 1943 - 115 1944 - 129 1945 - 308 {19} According Lend Liza was delivered to the USSR 685.7 thousand short tons of railway rails, {20}which is equal to 622.1 thousand metric tons. This is about 56.5% of the total production of railroad rails in the USSR from mid-1941 to the end of 1945. If we exclude from the calculation narrow-gauge rails that were not supplied under Lend-Lease, then American deliveries will amount to 83.3% the total volume of Soviet production. If we exclude from the calculations of production for the second half of 1945, taking it to be equal to at least half of the annual production (in fact, in the second half of 1945, significantly more than half of the annual production of rails was produced due to a reduction in the actual war production), then the Lend Lease on rails will make up 92.7% of the total volume of Soviet rail production. Thus, almost half of the railroad rails used on Soviet railways during the war received from the USA. The sharp reduction in the production of rails by the Soviet industry made it possible to direct additional capacities and resources of steel for the production of weapons (in 1945, the production of rails was 13% of the 1940 level, and in 1944 - only 5.4%).​

Thus, without American Lend Lease, the Soviets would've been unable to logistically support an attack upon the Germans because the VVS (Red Air Force) would've been grounded, and their motor vehicle pool as well as railway infrastructure would've been unable to support the Red Army logistically. The only way they could address these deficiencies would be to massively decrease their production in other areas as well as to demobilize large portions of the Red Army to provide the manpower needed in the factories. This, however, would cause another issue:

According to our estimates, based on a decrease in labor costs per unit of various types of weapons and equipment in 1941-1943, the production of tanks and combat aircraft during the war years was at least doubled. Taking this into account, the share of Western supplies of weapons and military equipment turns out to be approximately twice as high as is commonly believed. {56} 7,057 tanks and self-propelled guns were delivered from the USA, 5,480 from England and Canada. 15,481 American aircraft, 3,384 British ones. Of the total of 18,865 vehicles, about 17,000 combat vehicles were received {57}Taking into account the overestimation of data on Soviet production, the share of Western deliveries for combat aircraft will not be 15%, as was traditionally believed, but about 30%, for tanks and self-propelled guns, the share will increase from the traditional 12% to 24% of the total production level in the USSR in the military years. As for the artillery, only anti-aircraft artillery was supplied from the United States - 7944 guns. {58}Soviet historians usually correlate this number with the total production of guns and mortars in the USSR - 482.2 thousand guns and 351.8 thousand mortars, which makes the share of American deliveries less than 2% of the total volume of Soviet gun production, and less than 1% - from the total production of guns and mortars. Meanwhile, it is only necessary to compare here with the Soviet production of anti-aircraft guns - the most scarce type of artillery for the Red Army, and here the share of American supplies turns out to be much higher (unfortunately, an accurate calculation is still impossible due to the lack of data on the production of anti-aircraft guns in the USSR).​

In order to attempt to make up for their lack of trucks and railway infrastructure, they would have to sacrifice their production in tanks and AFVs which, combined with the loss of Lend Lease shipments, would leave the Red Army virtually without any armor. In short they would be faced with either no logistics and no air force or no air force and no armor divisions. Either precludes a successful offensive strike against Germany for very obvious reasons, given the nature of modern warfare. Their issues do not, however, stop there.

Hunger and War: Food Provisioning in the Soviet Union during World War II:

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Keeping the Red Army mobilized, without Lend Lease, means the Red Army starves to death or the workers providing it with equipment do. The only way to combat this is to mass demobilize it, and switch truck production to tractors and prioritize agricultural fuel supplies over military ones. Even then, as Havlat notes in Part II of his own work:

While Soviet and Russian historians are reluctant to admit the great impact Allied deliveries had on the Soviet war effort, the numbers available do not allow for any other conclusion. The Soviet Union was in a perilous state throughout the entire war, which Lend-Lease helped overcome. On average, the nearly 4.5 million tons of food were enough to feed over 3 million people every year, or roughly half the active Red Army. When compared to a population of nearly 200 million before the war, this might not seem much; however, even with these deliveries, the people of the Soviet Union were desperately short on food. In fact less than a year after the cancellation of Lend-Lease, the USSR experienced a famine that cost the lives of between 500,000 and 1.5 million people.171 Food was rationed very strictly: Soldiers and industry workers received the most, while people not vital for the war effort were allocated almost no food at all. Children and the elderly received just 700 calories, while ordinary industry workers received between 1,300 and 1,900 calories a day.172 In both cases this was roughly half the required amount. To maximize food production, the government allowed the creation of urban gardens. Besides the fields, food was grown in parks, public gardens, and alongside roads to the cities. In 1942 there were already 5 million of these public gardens; by 1944, this number had increased to 16 million.173​
Besides delivering large quantities of food, such as 1.154 million tons of grains, 672,429 tons of sugar, 782,973 tons of canned and 730,902 tons of smoked meat, Lend-Lease also delivered 37,477 tons of seeds, which enabled the Soviets to grow large quantities of additional food on their own land.174 While the supplied grain represented just over 1 percent of Soviet domestic production for the years 1942–1944, the 1.5 million tons of meat compared favorably to a domestic supply of just 7 million tons.175 Without American food, of which nearly all went to the Red Army, the government would have been forced to reduce the food supply for the civilian population even further, which would have resulted in decreased productivity, more dead, and in some instances, possibly even outright rebellion against the Soviet regime: ‘[. . .] one can reasonably conclude that the shortage of food in Russia in World War II was so acute that without the American help Russian resistance might have collapsed from want of food alone’. 176 Other extremely important deliveries were metals such as aluminum, copper, zinc, and nickel, which are vital for the production of modern military equipment like tanks and aircraft. Soviet industry had produced just 285,418 tons of aluminum in the years 1941–1944; during the same time the Western Allies had delivered an additional 261,109 tons, nearly doubling Soviet supply of this metal.177 Additionally, during 1941–1944 the Soviets had produced 573,000 tons of copper, while total Western deliveries amounted to 391,711 tons, roughly 40 percent of total Soviet wartime supply.178 Domestic production of zinc and nickel in the years 1942–1944 had been 142,100 and 38,100 tons respectively, while the Western Allies supplied 54,826 tons of zinc and 13,843 tons of nickel, in both cases more than a quarter of total supply.179 Another field in which Lend-Lease helped the Red Army was communications. Throughout the war, the United States delivered 40,000 radios, 380,135 field telephones, and 1.25 million miles of telephone cable, which made the Red Army a far more organized and efficient fighting force.18​

In short, with the cessation of hostilities, the Red Army would've have to been demobilized for very many years just to keep it and the Soviet Union at large from being starved to death. In order to lay the basis for a future offensive, they would've had to sacrifice years of tank production to repair their railway network and then waited additional years to rebuild their armored strength. Why? Soviet losses exceeded production in every year except 1944 and 1945 and the lack of further combat losses are made up for by lost Lend Lease supplies. When would they be ready again? To quote from the Beginnings of the Cold War Arms Race: The Truman Administration and the U.S. Arms Build-Up by Raymond P. Ojserkis:

"There was evidence indicating that the Soviet economy was weak. Even the Soviet government's published statistics, which were thought to be generally exaggerated, revealed an economy far behind the west. Soviet diplomatic actions in the immediate post-war period, whether in the form of attempts to gain more favorable conditions for Lend-Lease payments, Soviet lobbying for a large German reparations payment, Soviet demands to gain Austrian oil, or the transportation of basic infrastructure from conquered eastern Europe to the Soviet Union all indicated economic deficiencies. General Walter Bedell Smith, a future head of the Central Intelligence Agency, estimated that it would be another 10 to 15 years before the Soviets had recovered from the last war. The CIA's Office of Research and Estimates (ORE) tried to appraise the Soviet Union in terms of war potential, looking at the industrial strength, technology, and possible bottlenecks to increased production. The ORE concluded that Soviet economic weaknesses gravely limited the ability of Moscow to fight a prolonged war with the North Atlantic Treaty nations."​
"In particular, American analysts felt that the Soviet petroleum industry would find it difficult to produce enough high octane fuel, the Soviet machine tool industry did not produce enough spare parts, there was insufficient rolling stock to handle war time needs in the USSR, and the Soviets had perennial shortages of certain non-ferrous metals and certain types of finished steel. Complicating these problems, and, to an extent, causing them, were the Soviet deficiencies in properly trained technological personnel and managers."​

10 years from 1943, so 1953 would be the earliest they could contemplate a strike. Also, as a final note on the matter of AV Gas, Air Power and Maneuver Warfare by Martin van Creveld states that 87% of German counterattacks against Soviet exploitation forces happened outside the range of all fire support except for the Soviet air force. With such a steep reduction in aircraft and fuel production, the VVS will be unable to play this vital role to the same extent and more Soviet offensives will collapse due to German counter-attacks as a result.

Yes the Soviets faced a problem with in some areas let to low level resistance for several years. It didn't stop them waging war against Germany OTL so in a position where their stronger that's not going to be a serious problem.

Steve

The areas that the resistance would be in would be areas Soviet logistics to the border with have to pass through, meaning that any future attack would have attacks on its rears and likely-given German ties to said groups-advanced notice to Berlin. In our various discussions before you've cited this resistance as a compromising factor to German operations before. It is therefore worth noting that, at the height of the Eastern Front, the Germans had 180,000 partisans in their rear in 1944. To put this into comparison, between the Ukraine and the Baltics alone, there was 150,000 Anti-Soviet partisans in 1945-1946. If you include Poland, which I have not since it would be split with the Germans, there was another 50,000. If we assume that 50,000 would be proportion, given Poland was split roughly 50-50 between the USSR and Nazi Germany in 1939, that would mean another 25,000 partisans in Soviet rear areas.

All together, 175,000 partisans. To be fair, you've stated elsewhere that the Soviet resistance to the Germans would be an issue; why would a similar level of Anti-Soviet resistance not be in reverse to the Russians?
 
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10 years from 1943, so 1953 would be the earliest they could contemplate a strike.

Historically, 1957 was considered to be, by a lot of people in US and European military staffs, 'the year of maximum danger', the year Stalin would be ready for war(the logic was, one five-year plan - 1947-52 - to fix the damage of the War; another five-year plan - 1952-57 - to get ready for the next one). This is quite similar to your logic.
 
Historically, 1957 was considered to be, by a lot of people in US and European military staffs, 'the year of maximum danger', the year Stalin would be ready for war(the logic was, one five-year plan - 1947-52 - to fix the damage of the War; another five-year plan - 1952-57 - to get ready for the next one). This is quite similar to your logic.

Was this drawn from the Operation Dropshot planning?
 
In 1941 Stalin asked for peace and wonted gave Hitler both Belaruss and Ukraine.In 1943 - i think,that he would want pre-1941 borders.Possible.
Germany would still loose to A bomb,and soviets would get Eastern Europe just like in OTL.Nothing change,except more destroyed Germany and stronger soviets.

According to Weinberg, Stalin's minimal demands would be the 1941 borders so I think you're right on the money with that. Ideally, he (Stalin) would push for 1914 borders, but he was willing to negotiate and the Germans had a very strong hand to play in early 1943 given they still controlled Ukraine and Belarus. Given that, I'm with you on the matter if I'm reading you right? As far as the Western Front and the Anglo-Americans, I meant to do a post on that angle and your comment gives me the opportunity to do such, so my thanks to you for that!

Mark Stoler's Allies and Adversaries: The Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Grand Alliance, and U.S. Strategy in World War II was recently brought to my attention on another forum, and in it the author reveals the planning of the JCS as it concerns the war and situational contingencies therein. From Page 72:

Eisenhower and his subordinates were far from alone or original in perceiving the overriding importance of continued Soviet participation in the war. As previously noted, in the summer and fall of 1941 Roosevelt and army planners had begun to recognize that victory over Germany might not be possible unless the Red Army continued to tie down the bulk of the Wehrmacht, and they consequently had made assistance to Russia a focal point of their global strategy. The JB had forcefully reiterated this conclusion by informing Roosevelt on December 21 that ‘‘Russia alone possesses the manpower potentially able to defeat Germany in Europe.’’ 26 The Soviets’ late 1941 success in stopping the German advance on Moscow and launching a counteroffensive, occurring at a time when Axis forces were everywhere else successful, further reinforced this belief. As a result virtually all Allied planning papers in late 1941– early 1942 stressed the critical importance of aiding the Russians so that they could survive a renewed German onslaught. Roosevelt agreed. ‘‘Nothing would be worse than to have the Russians collapse,’’ he told Treasury secretary Henry Morgenthau on March 11. ‘‘I would rather lose New Zealand, Australia, or anything else than have the Russians collapse.’’ Five days earlier the JUSSC had bluntly stated that ‘‘Russia must be supported now by every possible means’’ because the absence of a Russian front would postpone ‘‘indefinitely’’ the end of the war.27 And as army planners realized, such postponement would only increase public and naval pressure to turn away completely from the indecisive European theater in favor of the Pacific.​

Page 80:

Marshall’s reasoning was based not only on Eisenhower’s February–March presentations but also on military and political events since then which had heavily reinforced the OPD’s original conclusions. Once again the focal point was the Soviet Union. ‘‘The retention of Russia in the war as an active participant is vital to Allied victory,’’ now acting chief of staff McNarney had emphasized on April 12; if German armies were allowed to turn west, ‘‘any opportunity for a successful offensive against the European Axis would be virtually eliminated.’’ 56 In mid June the staff again warned that Russian collapse would necessitate a strategic reassessment, ‘‘possibly with the result of directing our main effort to the Pacific rather than the Atlantic.’’ 57​

Page 93:

As early as April–May, OPD, g-2, and the joint committees had begun to explore the appropriate response should this ‘‘desperate situation’’ result in a Soviet collapse, and in early August the JUSSC completed and forwarded to the JPS a massive study of such a contingency. This study indicated that Russian collapse would be a ‘‘catastrophe’’ of such magnitude as to put the United States in a ‘‘desperate’’ situation too, one in which it ‘‘would be forced to consider courses of action which would primarily benefit the United States rather than the United Nations.’’
Indeed, it might be the only remaining major member of the United Nations, because the British Commonwealth might collapse and the British public react to Soviet defeat by overthrowing Churchill and agreeing to a negotiated peace that would leave Hitler in control of Eurasia. A revival of isolationism and an ‘‘increase in defeatism’’ within the country were also possible in this scenario. Even without British withdrawal, however, the only sound U.S. response to a Soviet collapse would be to ‘‘adopt the strategic defensive in the European Theater of War and to conduct the strategic offensive in the Japanese theater.’’ On August 19 the JPS the great strategic debate 93 approved this report, forwarded it to the Joint Chiefs as JCS 85, and ordered the preparation of a strategic plan for the defeat of Japan.40​

Concurrent to these concerns, the following documents were prepared:

"Conditions under Which an Armistice Might Be Negotiated between the United Nations and the European Powers", on June 11, 1942 by Maj. Gen. George V. Strong (S Document 22)

Col. Nevins, ‘‘Courses of Action Open to the United States in the Event the Prospective 1942 German Offensive Forces Russia to Capitulate,’’ memo, Apr. 1942, and unsigned memo to Nevins, Apr. 25, 1942, Wedemeyer Papers, box 76, folder 2, HI

With the removal of the Russian Front, the conclusion by American planners was the need to shift from the Europe First to Pacific First strategy at the minimum, drawing down forces in the Atlantic purely to those sufficient to safe guard the United Kingdom from a German invasion. With the benefit of hindsight we know this wasn't a realistic concern in terms of invasion, but the JCS was concerned with such given they didn't have access to German documents like we do. In the first document, written by Maj. Gen. Strong, it was recommended negotiations be opened to convene an armistice, as it was not thought possible to defeat the Germans without the Red Army tying down large elements of it.
 
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Historically, 1957 was considered to be, by a lot of people in US and European military staffs, 'the year of maximum danger', the year Stalin would be ready for war(the logic was, one five-year plan - 1947-52 - to fix the damage of the War; another five-year plan - 1952-57 - to get ready for the next one). This is quite similar to your logic.
And they were right.Soviet archives are still secret,but in 1951 Stalin made secret meeting with heads of military from all vassal states and one cyvilian,including Poland,and demanded prepare their armies to war till 1956.
Of course,becouse it was Stalin,his argument was that evil USA certainly attack them.Just like evil Finland attacked them in 1939,i think./in Poland it was Ochab diaries,if i remember correctly/
We knew that,becouse some of them made diaries later,and it would become known after 1989.
 
Ah, I think understand the issue here.

Operation Flash was conducted by Anti-Hitler elements in the Army, not the party like Goebbels or Himmler; indeed, as the article points out, they attempted to kill Himmler too on the same day. Thus, they did not and would not authorize the assassination attempt, namely because it was being done by people who had nothing to do with them. The suggestion I'm making, however, is what comes after Hitler is killed. His designated successor was Goering, and with Goebbels and Ribbentrop for a peace, surprisingly backed by Himmler, I have no doubt Goering would open such open given historically he had concerns with Operation Barbarossa.

This is the point. Goring, Goebbles etc wanted Hitler to make peace between Nazi Germany and the Soviets. Your talking about a military coup by part of the army which would be seen as a serious threat to the power of the party. Its going to be resisted by a lot of the party and very likely large elements of the military, both the officer corp and the rank and file. Which might actually shorten the war compared to OTL as you will have conflict and division inside the German establishment but is unlikely in the short term to lead to a separate peace with the Soviets.

Okay, a lot to unpack here so I'm going to be using a lot of citations here; sorry if its a lot to read!

Bagration, 1944, Osprey Campaign Series -

"Soviet rifle divisions were generally smaller than their German counterparts, averaging 2500-4000 troops. At the time of Operation Bagration a concerted effort was made to bring these units up to an average of 6000 troops. No serious effort was made to bring them up to their nominal TOE strength of 9600 troops."​

Red Army Handbook, 1939-1945, by Steven J. Zaloga -

"By this time, however, it was becoming apparent that the Soviet force structure of 500-plus Divisions simply exceeded their capacity to support it. [..] in mid-1944 more drastic action was necessary. Either some of the rifle divisions would have to be demobilized and their personnel used to fill out other units, or divisional strengths far below envisioned norms would have to be accepted. The Stavka opted for the latter alternative."​

Soviet Military Doctrine from Lenin to Gorbachev, 1915-1991, by Willard C. Frank -

"Soviet sources reflect manpower deficiencies by emphasizing the low strength of rifle units and the draconian measures used to enlist soldiers in liberated regions. By 1945 Soviet rifle divisions were often under strength, with only 3,500 to 5,000 men each."​

Thus, even with the recovery of Belarus and Ukraine over the course of 1943-1944, the manpower situation of the Red Army continued to be critical. They, however, had two saving graces: they, unlike the Germans, were not fighting a two front war and they had Lend Lease, which enabled them to focus their manpower in a way the Germans could not. That last one is critical, because with the event of peace, the Soviets lose that advantage. To give context to this, I return to Sokolov for citations.

Boris V. Sokolov (2007). The role of lend‐lease in Soviet military efforts, 1941–1945, The Journal of Slavic Military Studies: Vol. 7, issue 3, pages 567-586:

One of the bottlenecks of the Soviet economy before the war was the production of aviation and, to a lesser extent, automobile gasoline. High-octane benzoins were especially lacking. So, in 1941, on the eve of the war, the need for aviation gasoline B-78 was satisfied by only 4%. {7} In 1940, the USSR produced 889 thousand tons of aviation gasoline, in 1941 - 1269 thousand tons, in 1942 - 912, in 1943 - 1007, in 1944 - 1334 and in 194 5. - 1017 thousand tons. {8} In total, during the war years in the United States under Lend-Lease and within the framework of Soviet orders, 666 thousand tons of aviation gasoline were delivered, of which, after shipment, 37.65 thousand tons were redirected to other places, so that the net delivery was 628.4 thousand tons. {9}In addition, the net supply of light gasoline fractions from the USA to the USSR reached 732.3 thousand tons.In addition, Great Britain supplied 14.7 thousand tons of aviation gasoline and 902.1 thousand tons of light gasoline fractions to the USSR from the Abadan oil refinery ( these supplies were reimbursed by the United Kingdom (USA). To this must also be added 573 thousand tons of aviation gasoline supplied to the USSR from oil refineries in Great Britain and Canada. {ten}In total, all this gives 2850.5 thousand short tons of aviation gasoline and light gasoline fractions received by the USSR from the USA, Great Britain and Canada, which is equal to 2586 thousand metric tons. In the Soviet Union, imported aviation gasoline and light gasoline fractions were used almost exclusively for mixing with Soviet aviation gasoline in order to increase their octane number, since Soviet aircraft were adapted to use gasolines with a much lower octane number than in the West. Suffice it to say that more than 97% of imported gasoline had an octane rating of 99 and higher, while in the USSR, as we have already seen, there was even B-78 gasoline in a huge deficit. Therefore, in fact, the aviation gasoline supplied under the Lend-Lease was included in the Soviet production of aviation gasoline and amounted, therefore (together with light gasoline fractions), 51, 5% of Soviet production 1941-1945 If we subtract from the total Soviet aviation gasoline production for the first half of 1941, estimating it at about half of the annual production, then the share of supplies under Lend-Lease will rise to 57.8%. It turns out that the deliveries under Lend-Lease of aviation gasoline, which took place from August 1941 to September 1945, were 1.4 times higher than the actual Soviet production. From other sources of aviation gasoline supply, the USSR was able to capture in 1944-1945. 82.8 thousand tons of trophy gasoline in Romania, Poland, Hungary and Czechoslovakia, to September 1945, which was a drop in the ocean. It is obvious that without Western supplies of fuel, Soviet aviation simply would not have been able to support its troops in the required volume. It should also be taken into account that due to the much higher octane numbers of western aviation gasoline, its role in providing Soviet aviation was actually even more significant than could be concluded from weight alone.​

Further:

The Red Army's vehicle fleet was also largely secured by Western supplies. The production of cars in the USSR in 1940 amounted to 145 390, in 1941 - 124 476, in 1942 - 34 976, in 1943 - 49 266, in 1944 - 60 549, in 1945 - 74 757. {15} At the same time, in the first half of the year 1941 was produced 73.2 thousand cars, and in the second - only 46.1 thousand {16} , so that from the beginning of the war until the end of 1945, the total production of cars can be determined at 265.6 thousand units. During the war years, 409.5 thousand cars were delivered from the USA to the USSR, which is 1.5 times higher than Soviet production during the war years. By the end of the war (as of May 1, 1945), cars delivered under Lend-Lease accounted for 32.8% in the Red Army's car park (58.1% were domestically produced cars and 9.1% were captured cars).{17}Taking into account the greater carrying capacity and better quality, the role of American vehicles was even higher ("Studebakers", in particular, were used as artillery tractors). The pre-war fleet of Soviet cars (both in the Red Army and withdrawn from the national economy at the beginning of the war) was badly worn out. Before the war, the needs of the Red Army in motor transport were determined at 744 thousand cars and 92 thousand tractors, while there were 272.6 thousand cars and 42 thousand tractors in stock. It was planned to withdraw 240 thousand cars from the national economy, including 210 thousand trucks (GAZ-AA and ZIS-5), however, due to the severe wear of the vehicle fleet (for passenger cars, cars belonging to the 1st and 2nd categories , i.e., not requiring immediate repair, was 45%,{18} Obviously, without Western supplies, the Red Army would not have acquired the degree of mobility that it possessed at least from the middle of 1943, although until the end of the war, the use of motor vehicles was constrained by a lack of gasoline.​
Also, the functioning of Soviet railroad transport would have been impossible without Lend-Lease. Production of railway rails (including the narrow gauge rail) in the USSR varied as follows (in kt.) 1940 - 1360 1941 - 874 1942 - 112 1943 - 115 1944 - 129 1945 - 308 {19} According Lend Liza was delivered to the USSR 685.7 thousand short tons of railway rails, {20}which is equal to 622.1 thousand metric tons. This is about 56.5% of the total production of railroad rails in the USSR from mid-1941 to the end of 1945. If we exclude from the calculation narrow-gauge rails that were not supplied under Lend-Lease, then American deliveries will amount to 83.3% the total volume of Soviet production. If we exclude from the calculations of production for the second half of 1945, taking it to be equal to at least half of the annual production (in fact, in the second half of 1945, significantly more than half of the annual production of rails was produced due to a reduction in the actual war production), then the Lend Lease on rails will make up 92.7% of the total volume of Soviet rail production. Thus, almost half of the railroad rails used on Soviet railways during the war received from the USA. The sharp reduction in the production of rails by the Soviet industry made it possible to direct additional capacities and resources of steel for the production of weapons (in 1945, the production of rails was 13% of the 1940 level, and in 1944 - only 5.4%).​

Thus, without American Lend Lease, the Soviets would've been unable to logistically support an attack upon the Germans because the VVS (Red Air Force) would've been grounded, and their motor vehicle pool as well as railway infrastructure would've been unable to support the Red Army logistically. The only way they could address these deficiencies would be to massively decrease their production in other areas as well as to demobilize large portions of the Red Army to provide the manpower needed in the factories. This, however, would cause another issue:

According to our estimates, based on a decrease in labor costs per unit of various types of weapons and equipment in 1941-1943, the production of tanks and combat aircraft during the war years was at least doubled. Taking this into account, the share of Western supplies of weapons and military equipment turns out to be approximately twice as high as is commonly believed. {56} 7,057 tanks and self-propelled guns were delivered from the USA, 5,480 from England and Canada. 15,481 American aircraft, 3,384 British ones. Of the total of 18,865 vehicles, about 17,000 combat vehicles were received {57}Taking into account the overestimation of data on Soviet production, the share of Western deliveries for combat aircraft will not be 15%, as was traditionally believed, but about 30%, for tanks and self-propelled guns, the share will increase from the traditional 12% to 24% of the total production level in the USSR in the military years. As for the artillery, only anti-aircraft artillery was supplied from the United States - 7944 guns. {58}Soviet historians usually correlate this number with the total production of guns and mortars in the USSR - 482.2 thousand guns and 351.8 thousand mortars, which makes the share of American deliveries less than 2% of the total volume of Soviet gun production, and less than 1% - from the total production of guns and mortars. Meanwhile, it is only necessary to compare here with the Soviet production of anti-aircraft guns - the most scarce type of artillery for the Red Army, and here the share of American supplies turns out to be much higher (unfortunately, an accurate calculation is still impossible due to the lack of data on the production of anti-aircraft guns in the USSR).​

In order to attempt to make up for their lack of trucks and railway infrastructure, they would have to sacrifice their production in tanks and AFVs which, combined with the loss of Lend Lease shipments, would leave the Red Army virtually without any armor. In short they would be faced with either no logistics and no air force or no air force and no armor divisions. Either precludes a successful offensive strike against Germany for very obvious reasons, given the nature of modern warfare. Their issues do not, however, stop there.

Hunger and War: Food Provisioning in the Soviet Union during World War II:

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Keeping the Red Army mobilized, without Lend Lease, means the Red Army starves to death or the workers providing it with equipment do. The only way to combat this is to mass demobilize it, and switch truck production to tractors and prioritize agricultural fuel supplies over military ones. Even then, as Havlat notes in Part II of his own work:

While Soviet and Russian historians are reluctant to admit the great impact Allied deliveries had on the Soviet war effort, the numbers available do not allow for any other conclusion. The Soviet Union was in a perilous state throughout the entire war, which Lend-Lease helped overcome. On average, the nearly 4.5 million tons of food were enough to feed over 3 million people every year, or roughly half the active Red Army. When compared to a population of nearly 200 million before the war, this might not seem much; however, even with these deliveries, the people of the Soviet Union were desperately short on food. In fact less than a year after the cancellation of Lend-Lease, the USSR experienced a famine that cost the lives of between 500,000 and 1.5 million people.171 Food was rationed very strictly: Soldiers and industry workers received the most, while people not vital for the war effort were allocated almost no food at all. Children and the elderly received just 700 calories, while ordinary industry workers received between 1,300 and 1,900 calories a day.172 In both cases this was roughly half the required amount. To maximize food production, the government allowed the creation of urban gardens. Besides the fields, food was grown in parks, public gardens, and alongside roads to the cities. In 1942 there were already 5 million of these public gardens; by 1944, this number had increased to 16 million.173​
Besides delivering large quantities of food, such as 1.154 million tons of grains, 672,429 tons of sugar, 782,973 tons of canned and 730,902 tons of smoked meat, Lend-Lease also delivered 37,477 tons of seeds, which enabled the Soviets to grow large quantities of additional food on their own land.174 While the supplied grain represented just over 1 percent of Soviet domestic production for the years 1942–1944, the 1.5 million tons of meat compared favorably to a domestic supply of just 7 million tons.175 Without American food, of which nearly all went to the Red Army, the government would have been forced to reduce the food supply for the civilian population even further, which would have resulted in decreased productivity, more dead, and in some instances, possibly even outright rebellion against the Soviet regime: ‘[. . .] one can reasonably conclude that the shortage of food in Russia in World War II was so acute that without the American help Russian resistance might have collapsed from want of food alone’. 176 Other extremely important deliveries were metals such as aluminum, copper, zinc, and nickel, which are vital for the production of modern military equipment like tanks and aircraft. Soviet industry had produced just 285,418 tons of aluminum in the years 1941–1944; during the same time the Western Allies had delivered an additional 261,109 tons, nearly doubling Soviet supply of this metal.177 Additionally, during 1941–1944 the Soviets had produced 573,000 tons of copper, while total Western deliveries amounted to 391,711 tons, roughly 40 percent of total Soviet wartime supply.178 Domestic production of zinc and nickel in the years 1942–1944 had been 142,100 and 38,100 tons respectively, while the Western Allies supplied 54,826 tons of zinc and 13,843 tons of nickel, in both cases more than a quarter of total supply.179 Another field in which Lend-Lease helped the Red Army was communications. Throughout the war, the United States delivered 40,000 radios, 380,135 field telephones, and 1.25 million miles of telephone cable, which made the Red Army a far more organized and efficient fighting force.18​

In short, with the cessation of hostilities, the Red Army would've have to been demobilized for very many years just to keep it and the Soviet Union at large from being starved to death. In order to lay the basis for a future offensive, they would've had to sacrifice years of tank production to repair their railway network and then waited additional years to rebuild their armored strength. Why? Soviet losses exceeded production in every year except 1944 and 1945 and the lack of further combat losses are made up for by lost Lend Lease supplies. When would they be ready again? To quote from the Beginnings of the Cold War Arms Race: The Truman Administration and the U.S. Arms Build-Up by Raymond P. Ojserkis:

"There was evidence indicating that the Soviet economy was weak. Even the Soviet government's published statistics, which were thought to be generally exaggerated, revealed an economy far behind the west. Soviet diplomatic actions in the immediate post-war period, whether in the form of attempts to gain more favorable conditions for Lend-Lease payments, Soviet lobbying for a large German reparations payment, Soviet demands to gain Austrian oil, or the transportation of basic infrastructure from conquered eastern Europe to the Soviet Union all indicated economic deficiencies. General Walter Bedell Smith, a future head of the Central Intelligence Agency, estimated that it would be another 10 to 15 years before the Soviets had recovered from the last war. The CIA's Office of Research and Estimates (ORE) tried to appraise the Soviet Union in terms of war potential, looking at the industrial strength, technology, and possible bottlenecks to increased production. The ORE concluded that Soviet economic weaknesses gravely limited the ability of Moscow to fight a prolonged war with the North Atlantic Treaty nations."​
"In particular, American analysts felt that the Soviet petroleum industry would find it difficult to produce enough high octane fuel, the Soviet machine tool industry did not produce enough spare parts, there was insufficient rolling stock to handle war time needs in the USSR, and the Soviets had perennial shortages of certain non-ferrous metals and certain types of finished steel. Complicating these problems, and, to an extent, causing them, were the Soviet deficiencies in properly trained technological personnel and managers."​

10 years from 1943, so 1953 would be the earliest they could contemplate a strike. Also, as a final note on the matter of AV Gas, Air Power and Maneuver Warfare by Martin van Creveld states that 87% of German counterattacks against Soviet exploitation forces happened outside the range of all fire support except for the Soviet air force. With such a steep reduction in aircraft and fuel production, the VVS will be unable to play this vital role to the same extent and more Soviet offensives will collapse due to German counter-attacks as a result.

Question, why is it an either or? Would the USSR not simply demoblise elements of the army while it absorbed the regained lands, which is occurring earlier and with less destruction than OTL. This gives access to resources for rebuilding both military and civilian and resources. If the state spends a year say without fighting then even at drastically reduced production rates its going to be able to get the reduced army markedly better equipped and be in a position after that to increase the size of the army again. Some of this addition production can be put into areas like railway production, aided by the greater resources available from the liberated lands. Part of the reason why factors like railway track was reduced was not only because military factors took priority - which is no longer the case with peace - and because they knew they could get such material via L-L which is no longer the case.

I'm not arguing that the Soviets are going to roll over the new border in say autumn 43 but once Germany starts faltering I see it as very likely. Both to give Stalin a place at any peace conference and also an additional buffer. Which could be some time in late 44 or later.

I also accept that you are likely to see a lot of people suffering and probably dying. This is Soviet Russia after all and Stalin is the leader who deliberately starved millions in Ukraine and other agricultural areas in previous years.

Plus three other factors:
a) I doubt that Germany would know about most if any of those potential problems. As such and given the mutual mistrust and how deceitful the Nazis were their likely to feel the need to maintain a substantial force in both Poland and Romania.

b) The figures your referring to are predictions about a war between the Soviets and the western powers not the Soviets and the Nazis.

c) A point which does work in your favour that you mention in a reply to a latter post was I wasn't aware the US were think that in the event of a Soviet separate peace they would give up on Europe. Which does give time for the Nazis to boost their position greatly. Especially if the US elected to end their bombing campaign which was the only part of an offensive war on the Nazis they seemed to be that eager on if their ruling out an invasion of the continent. If they did that then, until nukes change the situation it would be very bad for everybody I fear, including possibly the US as its likely to mean they end up invading Japan.


The areas that the resistance would be in would be areas Soviet logistics to the border with have to pass through, meaning that any future attack would have attacks on its rears and likely-given German ties to said groups-advanced notice to Berlin. In our various discussions before you've cited this resistance as a compromising factor to German operations before. It is therefore worth noting that, at the height of the Eastern Front, the Germans had 180,000 partisans in their rear in 1944. To put this into comparison, between the Ukraine and the Baltics alone, there was 150,000 Anti-Soviet partisans in 1945-1946. If you include Poland, which I have not since it would be split with the Germans, there was another 50,000. If we assume that 50,000 would be proportion, given Poland was split roughly 50-50 between the USSR and Nazi Germany in 1939, that would mean another 25,000 partisans in Soviet rear areas.

All together, 175,000 partisans. To be fair, you've stated elsewhere that the Soviet resistance to the Germans would be an issue; why would a similar level of Anti-Soviet resistance not be in reverse to the Russians?

Yes the Soviets would have problems with opposition, especially in the Baltics and parts of the Ukraine. This was however repressed pretty brutally OTL and at least some of it was internal conflict between Ukrainian and Polish groups that was ultimately ended by a ruthless ethnic cleansing of minorities either side of the border between the two. It would be a problem but its not insurmountable.

Steve
 
Just to clafrify - ukrainian UPA genocides all minorities they could catch ,and becouse there were mostly poles,they genocided about 100.000 of us.But hungarian,czech,russians was treated the same way.
Polish partisants sometimes burned villages,but never murdered womans and children.
And you do not want to knew,what UPA did with captured children.I learned, and i wish i could forget it.

P.S Yes,NKWD would have no problem with UPA.They crushed them in canon without problems.Polish partisants were even easiest to deal with - soviet commanders gave world of honour that they only want to talk,polish partisants come and go to mass graves or gulags.Only few nationalist was smart enough to fight.
 
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This is the point. Goring, Goebbles etc wanted Hitler to make peace between Nazi Germany and the Soviets. Your talking about a military coup by part of the army which would be seen as a serious threat to the power of the party. Its going to be resisted by a lot of the party and very likely large elements of the military, both the officer corp and the rank and file. Which might actually shorten the war compared to OTL as you will have conflict and division inside the German establishment but is unlikely in the short term to lead to a separate peace with the Soviets.

Which is why I'm assuming Goering comes into power; the plotters get Hitler, but given the Party and most of the military would be opposed and intact, they would maintain control. I do not see how this would shorten the war, given you've just outlined the overwhelming majority of the military and all of the party-and thus the regime-remains in support of, well, the regime.

Question, why is it an either or? Would the USSR not simply demoblise elements of the army while it absorbed the regained lands, which is occurring earlier and with less destruction than OTL. This gives access to resources for rebuilding both military and civilian and resources. If the state spends a year say without fighting then even at drastically reduced production rates its going to be able to get the reduced army markedly better equipped and be in a position after that to increase the size of the army again. Some of this addition production can be put into areas like railway production, aided by the greater resources available from the liberated lands. Part of the reason why factors like railway track was reduced was not only because military factors took priority - which is no longer the case with peace - and because they knew they could get such material via L-L which is no longer the case.

I'm not arguing that the Soviets are going to roll over the new border in say autumn 43 but once Germany starts faltering I see it as very likely. Both to give Stalin a place at any peace conference and also an additional buffer. Which could be some time in late 44 or later.

I also accept that you are likely to see a lot of people suffering and probably dying. This is Soviet Russia after all and Stalin is the leader who deliberately starved millions in Ukraine and other agricultural areas in previous years.

It is an either or because of the capacities of the Soviet regime. As Havlat notes, for example, the Famine of 1946-1947 lasted for two years and started once Lend Lease aid ended, which means here a start date in 1943 and an end date in 1945, with that alone precluding military operations until then. In terms of military goods, see this comparison of Germany and Soviet production in the relevant timeframe:

1943:​
Tanks and SP guns: 12,063 / 24,092​
Armored cars: 806 / 1,820​
Half-tracks: 16,964 / 0​
Trucks: 109,483 / 45,545​
Cars: 34,478 / 2,546​
Locomotives: 5,243 / 43​
Train cars: 66,263 / 108​

You can look at 1942 and 1944 in the link to compare if you so wish, but the picture is telling, in my personal estimation, particularly in trucks, train cars, and locomotives. The sheer scale of these lackings can not be made up for in a single year, either.

Plus three other factors:
a) I doubt that Germany would know about most if any of those potential problems. As such and given the mutual mistrust and how deceitful the Nazis were their likely to feel the need to maintain a substantial force in both Poland and Romania.

I agree. In 1944, Nazi Germany maintained 150 Divisions on the Eastern Front, 22 on average in Italy and 60 on average in France/Western Europe. Germany could maintain 100 Divisions in the East (70 in Poland, 30 in Romania/Slovakia/Hungary) while transferring 50 Divisions to the West. Such makes any attempting at a landing in France or breakthrough(s) in Italy impossible.

b) The figures your referring to are predictions about a war between the Soviets and the western powers not the Soviets and the Nazis.

Havlat, Sokolov and all others but the Ojserkis one concern the USSR in WWII, and thus are relevant. With regards to Ojserkis, it is still relevant because the passage cited concerns late 1940s intelligence assessments of the USSR's capabilities, not in comparison to those of the Western Powers; that their enemy would be different does not change the problems the Soviets face given those are their established weaknesses. They don't, for example, begin producing more AV Gas if their enemy is different.

c) A point which does work in your favour that you mention in a reply to a latter post was I wasn't aware the US were think that in the event of a Soviet separate peace they would give up on Europe. Which does give time for the Nazis to boost their position greatly. Especially if the US elected to end their bombing campaign which was the only part of an offensive war on the Nazis they seemed to be that eager on if their ruling out an invasion of the continent. If they did that then, until nukes change the situation it would be very bad for everybody I fear, including possibly the US as its likely to mean they end up invading Japan.

Given the existing JCS documents, we can expect the United States to broke an armistice in 1943 or 1944, long before nuclear weapons become a factor. I think you end up with a Three Way Cold War in this scenario, in my take.

Yes the Soviets would have problems with opposition, especially in the Baltics and parts of the Ukraine. This was however repressed pretty brutally OTL and at least some of it was internal conflict between Ukrainian and Polish groups that was ultimately ended by a ruthless ethnic cleansing of minorities either side of the border between the two. It would be a problem but its not insurmountable.

Steve

The exact same solution and policies as the Germans, historically.
 
Which is why I'm assuming Goering comes into power; the plotters get Hitler, but given the Party and most of the military would be opposed and intact, they would maintain control. I do not see how this would shorten the war, given you've just outlined the overwhelming majority of the military and all of the party-and thus the regime-remains in support of, well, the regime.

Just to clarify your saying the plotters kill Hitler but are crushed by the party and army. Then when a new leader emerges there is a significant consensus for a compromise peace with Stalin?

It is an either or because of the capacities of the Soviet regime. As Havlat notes, for example, the Famine of 1946-1947 lasted for two years and started once Lend Lease aid ended, which means here a start date in 1943 and an end date in 1945, with that alone precluding military operations until then. In terms of military goods, see this comparison of Germany and Soviet production in the relevant timeframe:

1943:​
Tanks and SP guns: 12,063 / 24,092​
Armored cars: 806 / 1,820​
Half-tracks: 16,964 / 0​
Trucks: 109,483 / 45,545​
Cars: 34,478 / 2,546​
Locomotives: 5,243 / 43​
Train cars: 66,263 / 108​

You can look at 1942 and 1944 in the link to compare if you so wish, but the picture is telling, in my personal estimation, particularly in trucks, train cars, and locomotives. The sheer scale of these lackings can not be made up for in a single year, either.

The 43 figures are probably suitable as the Soviets have adjusted to the relocation of industry by them. It would take a year or two for the SU to adjust to a more balanced production schedual and get the liberated lands back into full production as well as the loss of L-L.

I agree. In 1944, Nazi Germany maintained 150 Divisions on the Eastern Front, 22 on average in Italy and 60 on average in France/Western Europe. Germany could maintain 100 Divisions in the East (70 in Poland, 30 in Romania/Slovakia/Hungary) while transferring 50 Divisions to the West. Such makes any attempting at a landing in France or breakthrough(s) in Italy impossible.

I'm doubtful of that last conclusion. Those 50 divs have a lot of area to be spread over. Also the allies will have naval and air superiority so areas like Italy and the Balkans will provide options if the US is willing to consider them. Probably more important would be the freeing up of German production although they are going to lack some of the industrial manpower of OTL without continued massed slave labour drafts from the east.

Italy itself would be especially vulnerable to further attack if the US would free up amphibious resources considerably, which might be the case if they have abandon the idea of a landing in N France. Options in the Balkans would be a bit harder but potentially more profitable.

Havlat, Sokolov and all others but the Ojserkis one concern the USSR in WWII, and thus are relevant. With regards to Ojserkis, it is still relevant because the passage cited concerns late 1940s intelligence assessments of the USSR's capabilities, not in comparison to those of the Western Powers; that their enemy would be different does not change the problems the Soviets face given those are their established weaknesses. They don't, for example, begin producing more AV Gas if their enemy is different.

However do remember that this was after two additional years of combat, draining the SU considerably more than in this proposed alternative. As I said I'm not suggesting the Soviets will be surging westwards in late 43 but thinking a couple of years later.

Given the existing JCS documents, we can expect the United States to broke an armistice in 1943 or 1944, long before nuclear weapons become a factor. I think you end up with a Three Way Cold War in this scenario, in my take.

Not sure about that. There was still a determination to defeat Nazi Germany in that period and I think the US wouldn't give up that quickly.

The exact same solution and policies as the Germans, historically.

Very true although the Soviets did give the option that the Nazis didn't of accepting Soviet rule without being exterminated or reduced to permanent slaves. ;)
 
Just to clarify your saying the plotters kill Hitler but are crushed by the party and army. Then when a new leader emerges there is a significant consensus for a compromise peace with Stalin?

Yes, as soon as word arrives in Berlin that Hitler is dead, Goering will assume power as he was already the designated heir. Goebbels, Ribbentrop, and Himmler were all in favor of a peace deal, Goering had been opposed to Operation Barbarossa since the onset. Thus, the consensus outside of Hitler by 1943-1944 was for a peace deal, one which many of the German Army's generals supported.

The 43 figures are probably suitable as the Soviets have adjusted to the relocation of industry by them. It would take a year or two for the SU to adjust to a more balanced production schedual and get the liberated lands back into full production as well as the loss of L-L.

It would take vastly more than a year or two to make up for the loss of Lend Lease.

Take the matter of trucks, for example. Sokolov states that the production of vehicles in 1940 amounted to 145,390 vehicles, compared to the 409,000 received from the U.S. via Lend Lease. Even if the USSR could immediately re-boost production to the 1940 level-something they did not achieve historically-starting in 1944 (first full year of peace), it would thus take until 1947 to have made up for the loss of Lend Lease in just this one area of logistics. Basically, the Soviets would need years to build a sufficient stock of resources.

I'm doubtful of that last conclusion. Those 50 divs have a lot of area to be spread over. Also the allies will have naval and air superiority so areas like Italy and the Balkans will provide options if the US is willing to consider them. Probably more important would be the freeing up of German production although they are going to lack some of the industrial manpower of OTL without continued massed slave labour drafts from the east.

Italy itself would be especially vulnerable to further attack if the US would free up amphibious resources considerably, which might be the case if they have abandon the idea of a landing in N France. Options in the Balkans would be a bit harder but potentially more profitable.

They do not, because the Germans had come to the same conclusion as the Western Allies: any invasion would have to land in France, and the only viable invasion routes from England are Normandy or Calais. The Germans fortified Calais to the point the Allies disregarded it, but now the Germans can fortify Normandy to the same extent while still having a massive reserve. Said reserve could be used to fortify Southern France too, while also massively reinforcing Italy.

As far as landings elsewhere, American planners had already rejected such historically because the logistics do not support such. The Balkans lacked the railway network to support an advance upon Germany, given its terrain and lack of infrastructure. As for Italy, see Rick Atkinson's The Day of Battle: The War in Sicily and Italy, 1943-1944, which shows how just two panzer divisions nearly repulsed the Allied landings in Salerno despite their naval and air advantage. In this scenario, however, Italy has been massively reinforced. If two panzer divisions nearly accomplished, this how about four? Logistics precluded other landings on the Peninsula, as shown by how the Anzio Landing turned out.

However do remember that this was after two additional years of combat, draining the SU considerably more than in this proposed alternative. As I said I'm not suggesting the Soviets will be surging westwards in late 43 but thinking a couple of years later.

The estimate given was 10-15 years of recovery, and I selected the 10 year figure as it reflects the two years of "missed" combat; their recover is five years sooner since it was two years less in the war.

Not sure about that. There was still a determination to defeat Nazi Germany in that period and I think the US wouldn't give up that quickly.

According to their own documents written by their Generals and presented to FDR, this was their intention. Polling also supports it, see American Popular Opinion and the War Against Germany: The Issue of Negotiated Peace, 1942 by Richard W. Steele,The Journal of American History , Dec., 1978, Vol. 65, No. 3 (Dec., 1978), pp. 704-723:

The coming of war to America changed but did not destroy the peace issue. Many of those who had stubbornly resisted involvement now hoped to terminate it as quickly as possible, and apparently only a lack of organization significantly differentiated sentiment for a negotiated peace from the isolationism of 1941. Moreover, as the President quickly learned, the leadership for an effective negotiated peace movement seemed likely to emerge from the die-hard remnants of the America First Committee, particularly in the person of the isolationist national hero, Charles A. Lindbergh.​
America First officially disbanded in February, and many of its officials announced their support for the war effort. Nevertheless, the activities of some members, including Lindbergh, remained the subject of government interest and concern. In mid-February Federal Bureau of Investigation Director J. Edgar Hoover informed the President that former members of the Committee had "gone underground" and were "biding their time," awaiting the opportunity to emerge again as a "political force." Hoover cited as evidence a mid-December meeting at which the renowned flyer had allegedly held forth on the yellow and Bolshevik menaces, on the foolishness of the current war in Europe, and on what might be done to reverse American policy.
According to Hoover's informant, Lindbergh declared that "when the American people, by reason of the lists of the missing and the statements of war losses, realize that they have been betrayed by the British and the Administration," the Committee should be ready to "advocate a negotiated peace." Hoover also noted that he had obtained information from other sources to the effect that the America Firsters had a "secret mailing list of 8,476,000"; that lately a "great many individuals among foreign speaking groups have been circularized"; and that the leaders of the underground organization planned to hold a "series of house parties . .. to keep alive contacts."34​

Further:

Nevertheless, the President could not rest easy, for the fate of the extremists notwithstanding, he had reason to ponder the possibility that his more respectable political enemies might use the peace issue to unsettle and embarrass the administration. In April OFF warned that in the fall congressional campaigns "subversion will probably be intermingled with politics" as both administration opponents and Nazi propagandists seek to "promote defeatism or play upon the war weariness of the people." Fleshing out this prediction was a report informing the President that three leading isolationist Republicans, Congressman Joe Martin, former Congressman Bruce Barton, and publisher Roy Howard, had "just held a secret meeting in far off Tucson," leading to speculation that they were planning an "isolationist attack" against administration war policies. A more explicit warning came to Roosevelt from a friend, New Dealer Gardiner Jackson, who told him in the fall of 1942 that the business interests behind the presidential candidacy of Thomas E. Dewey were working hard for a negotiated peace and had taken a recent conciliatory speech by Hitler as the "opening gun of the drive to call the war off. . . ." The problem raised by these reports (if true) was, as OFF warned, that even if the agitation of the peace issue could not force the administration into negotiations, it could do "much damage" by strengthening "the hand of those in Congress whose main goal is the harassment and obstruction of the President."37

Very true although the Soviets did give the option that the Nazis didn't of accepting Soviet rule without being exterminated or reduced to permanent slaves. ;)

They did not, no. Case in point is the Tartars and Chechens, for example.
 
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Yes, as soon as word arrives in Berlin that Hitler is dead, Goering will assume power as he was already the designated heir. Goebbels, Ribbentrop, and Himmler were all in favor of a peace deal, Goering had been opposed to Operation Barbarossa since the onset. Thus, the consensus outside of Hitler by 1943-1944 was for a peace deal, one which many of the German Army's generals supported.

But would they have been willing to make such concessions to Stalin, especially considering they wouldn't have known what we're discussing how. As well as the loss of material supplies that would result.

It would take vastly more than a year or two to make up for the loss of Lend Lease.

Take the matter of trucks, for example. Sokolov states that the production of vehicles in 1940 amounted to 145,390 vehicles, compared to the 409,000 received from the U.S. via Lend Lease. Even if the USSR could immediately re-boost production to the 1940 level-something they did not achieve historically-starting in 1944 (first full year of peace), it would thus take until 1947 to have made up for the loss of Lend Lease in just this one area of logistics. Basically, the Soviets would need years to build a sufficient stock of resources.

Just to be clear that 409,000 is the total truck supplies from L-L over what period? 1941-43 [to the date of a proposed deal] or 1943-45?

They do not, because the Germans had come to the same conclusion as the Western Allies: any invasion would have to land in France, and the only viable invasion routes from England are Normandy or Calais. The Germans fortified Calais to the point the Allies disregarded it, but now the Germans can fortify Normandy to the same extent while still having a massive reserve. Said reserve could be used to fortify Southern France too, while also massively reinforcing Italy.

As far as landings elsewhere, American planners had already rejected such historically because the logistics do not support such. The Balkans lacked the railway network to support an advance upon Germany, given its terrain and lack of infrastructure. As for Italy, see Rick Atkinson's The Day of Battle: The War in Sicily and Italy, 1943-1944, which shows how just two panzer divisions nearly repulsed the Allied landings in Salerno despite their naval and air advantage. In this scenario, however, Italy has been massively reinforced. If two panzer divisions nearly accomplished, this how about four? Logistics precluded other landings on the Peninsula, as shown by how the Anzio Landing turned out.

I think your confusing American doctrine with logistical limitations. The US army had the idea that only an invasion of N France would be considered and it took considerable effort by Britain to get them commited to Torch let alone later operations against Italy. Which were then quickly restricted by US restrictions imposed on amphibious resources especially. Its also clear that Germany didn't agree with the US opinion from the size of the force it placed in Italy and the Balkans.

In fact if you assume another 50-60 German divisions being based in Europe west of the frontier zone with the Soviets and most or even half of them being based in N France and related areas that rules out the latter and basically forces landings elsewhere. Here the lack of railways in the Balkans is an allied advantage as it restricts how much Germany can support the defence of such an area and the western allies, with more flexible sea based logistics can secure the southern part of the region and inflict serious damage on the German economy, especially with the much increased threat to Polesti that would result. It would also tighten the blockade by isolating Germany from Turkish supplies.

Italy has far more opportunity for isolating and destroying German forces as they can't defend the entire long coastline, on both sides of the country, in strength without tying up many units on fairly static garrison duties - although admittedly the Adriatic would be difficult to get to until the heel of Italy is secured. As I say it was US restrictions on amphibious resources and insistence on manpower being switched to Britain for Normandy that was the real restriction here.

According to their own documents written by their Generals and presented to FDR, this was their intention. Polling also supports it, see American Popular Opinion and the War Against Germany: The Issue of Negotiated Peace, 1942 by Richard W. Steele,The Journal of American History , Dec., 1978, Vol. 65, No. 3 (Dec., 1978), pp. 704-723:

The coming of war to America changed but did not destroy the peace issue. Many of those who had stubbornly resisted involvement now hoped to terminate it as quickly as possible, and apparently only a lack of organization significantly differentiated sentiment for a negotiated peace from the isolationism of 1941. Moreover, as the President quickly learned, the leadership for an effective negotiated peace movement seemed likely to emerge from the die-hard remnants of the America First Committee, particularly in the person of the isolationist national hero, Charles A. Lindbergh.​
America First officially disbanded in February, and many of its officials announced their support for the war effort. Nevertheless, the activities of some members, including Lindbergh, remained the subject of government interest and concern. In mid-February Federal Bureau of Investigation Director J. Edgar Hoover informed the President that former members of the Committee had "gone underground" and were "biding their time," awaiting the opportunity to emerge again as a "political force." Hoover cited as evidence a mid-December meeting at which the renowned flyer had allegedly held forth on the yellow and Bolshevik menaces, on the foolishness of the current war in Europe, and on what might be done to reverse American policy.
According to Hoover's informant, Lindbergh declared that "when the American people, by reason of the lists of the missing and the statements of war losses, realize that they have been betrayed by the British and the Administration," the Committee should be ready to "advocate a negotiated peace." Hoover also noted that he had obtained information from other sources to the effect that the America Firsters had a "secret mailing list of 8,476,000"; that lately a "great many individuals among foreign speaking groups have been circularized"; and that the leaders of the underground organization planned to hold a "series of house parties . .. to keep alive contacts."34​

Further:

Nevertheless, the President could not rest easy, for the fate of the extremists notwithstanding, he had reason to ponder the possibility that his more respectable political enemies might use the peace issue to unsettle and embarrass the administration. In April OFF warned that in the fall congressional campaigns "subversion will probably be intermingled with politics" as both administration opponents and Nazi propagandists seek to "promote defeatism or play upon the war weariness of the people." Fleshing out this prediction was a report informing the President that three leading isolationist Republicans, Congressman Joe Martin, former Congressman Bruce Barton, and publisher Roy Howard, had "just held a secret meeting in far off Tucson," leading to speculation that they were planning an "isolationist attack" against administration war policies. A more explicit warning came to Roosevelt from a friend, New Dealer Gardiner Jackson, who told him in the fall of 1942 that the business interests behind the presidential candidacy of Thomas E. Dewey were working hard for a negotiated peace and had taken a recent conciliatory speech by Hitler as the "opening gun of the drive to call the war off. . . ." The problem raised by these reports (if true) was, as OFF warned, that even if the agitation of the peace issue could not force the administration into negotiations, it could do "much damage" by strengthening "the hand of those in Congress whose main goal is the harassment and obstruction of the President."37

Interesting. If the US was determined to make peace then Britain would be forced to but its going to be a huge political hit to accept such a defeat. As well as the continued political and military costs that would result.

Mind you if the US doesn't freeze the UK out of the Manhattan Project then you could see Britain in a position say by 46 to possibly end the suffering in Europe.

They did not, no. Case in point is the Tartars and Chechens, for example.

Many of whom were deported, albeit that in the former case at least many also fought for and then retreated with the Germans before they could be deported. There wasn't mass slaughter on either the scale or the intent than occurred in the Nazi empire. The Soviets were brutal but their requirement was obedience. They didn't kill on the basis of racial identity.
 
But would they have been willing to make such concessions to Stalin, especially considering they wouldn't have known what we're discussing how. As well as the loss of material supplies that would result.

Yes, as noted by Weinberg, both Goebbels and Ribbentrop were and there was hope of a restoration of the trade deals that preceded the invasion; Weinberg indicates Stalin was open to such. In terms of knowing how much of an effect Lend Lease would have on the Soviets? Probably not, but that isn't really a mark against this given they were in favor of it without said knowledge.

Just to be clear that 409,000 is the total truck supplies from L-L over what period? 1941-43 [to the date of a proposed deal] or 1943-45?

The whole Lend Lease period.

I think your confusing American doctrine with logistical limitations. The US army had the idea that only an invasion of N France would be considered and it took considerable effort by Britain to get them commited to Torch let alone later operations against Italy. Which were then quickly restricted by US restrictions imposed on amphibious resources especially. Its also clear that Germany didn't agree with the US opinion from the size of the force it placed in Italy and the Balkans.

The U.S. Army studied both options and rejected them upon logistical grounds, citing the lack of sufficient railways and roadways to support an advance through the Balkans as well as the highly defensive terrain and long distance from Germany comparative to France. Given France is on the North European Plain, allowing for a decisive armored advance upon Germany, while the Balkans isn't, proved to be another point in their favor.

Germany committed a few divisions to Greece in response to American deception operations, but by 1943 had come to the same conclusion as the Americans the landings would come in France too; France thus always constituted the majority of the German focus too. As for Italy, given what ended up happening there with actual Allied invasion, that can't really be held against them I would argue.

In fact if you assume another 50-60 German divisions being based in Europe west of the frontier zone with the Soviets and most or even half of them being based in N France and related areas that rules out the latter and basically forces landings elsewhere. Here the lack of railways in the Balkans is an allied advantage as it restricts how much Germany can support the defence of such an area and the western allies, with more flexible sea based logistics can secure the southern part of the region and inflict serious damage on the German economy, especially with the much increased threat to Polesti that would result. It would also tighten the blockade by isolating Germany from Turkish supplies.

American planners were right to call it a road to nowhere, precisely because it meant that, even if they achieved a successful landing, it precluded any advance on Germany because of the same logistical limitations, making it a repeat of the Salonica Front of WWI. On the flipside, it also removes any chance of shutting down the Rhine River that occurred in late 1944 thanks to Allied air power operating from France and precludes the cutting off of Swedish Iron Ore deposits that happened due to diplomatic pressure at the same time.

Italy has far more opportunity for isolating and destroying German forces as they can't defend the entire long coastline, on both sides of the country, in strength without tying up many units on fairly static garrison duties - although admittedly the Adriatic would be difficult to get to until the heel of Italy is secured. As I say it was US restrictions on amphibious resources and insistence on manpower being switched to Britain for Normandy that was the real restriction here.

It was also, again, Logistics. Italy's coastline is long, but ports and landing sites are few and viable logistics points in terms of roadways and railways are too. Why did Anzio fail? Logistics.

Interesting. If the US was determined to make peace then Britain would be forced to but its going to be a huge political hit to accept such a defeat. As well as the continued political and military costs that would result.

On which side?

Mind you if the US doesn't freeze the UK out of the Manhattan Project then you could see Britain in a position say by 46 to possibly end the suffering in Europe.

Such had already occurred, but even then the entire reason the UK turned over Tube Alloys is because they had come to the conclusion they could not complete the project on their own in a relevant timeframe; this was confirmed by them not achieving nuclear capability until the 1950s.

Many of whom were deported, albeit that in the former case at least many also fought for and then retreated with the Germans before they could be deported. There wasn't mass slaughter on either the scale or the intent than occurred in the Nazi empire. The Soviets were brutal but their requirement was obedience. They didn't kill on the basis of racial identity.

The Soviets explicitly did kill on the basis of racial identity and accusations of Pro-German sympathies of the groups in question are baseless:

The deportation was prepared from at least October 1943 and 19,000 officers as well as 100,000 NKVD soldiers from all over the USSR participated in this operation. The deportation encompassed their entire nations, as well as the liquidation of the Checheno-Ingush Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic. The demographic consequences of this eviction were catastrophic and far reaching: of the (according to Soviet archives; Chechen sources put the deportees at 650,000[1]) 496,000 Chechens and Ingush who were deported, at least a quarter perished. In total, the archive records show that over a hundred thousand people died or were killed during the round-ups and transportation, and during their early years in exile in the Kazakh and Kyrgyz SSR as well as Russian SFSR where they were sent to the many labor camps in the forced settlements. Chechen sources claim that 400,000 perished presuming a higher number of deportees.[1] Chechens suffered a higher proportional loss of life than any other ethnic group persecuted by population transfer in the Soviet Union.[4] Chechens were under administrative supervision of the NKVD officials during that entire time.​

The European Parliament in 2004 likewise recognized it as a genocide.
 
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