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History Western Civilization, Rome and Cyclical History

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Whatever ideas I put online can be freely used.

...Oh. Well in that case, thanks. I will, of course, make sure to give due credit before posting such a TL (though not by name, if you're uncomfortable with that). That is, assuming I ever go through with it.

Anyhow: I'm wondering what the exact scale and scope of government will likely be, after the whole collapse of Modernity? You have made a point of how big government dragging us into the deepest depths of Hell would invite the preeminence of a "night-watchman" state, but I'm curious as to the possible specifics of that?

Moreover, are there any significant ways in which you'd see this traditionalist government intervening somewhat more than present ones--such as adopting an official state religion, or even taxing people of a different denomination? Because if "neo-Augustus" could lead a crusade to retake the Middle East and force the locals to convert at gunpoint, then the much milder policies I suggested above definitely sound like fair game (in the sense of what such a government would probably do, of course!).
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
...Oh. Well in that case, thanks. I will, of course, make sure to give due credit before posting such a TL (though not by name, if you're uncomfortable with that). That is, assuming I ever go through with it.
Cool. :cool:

Anyhow: I'm wondering what the exact scale and scope of government will likely be, after the whole collapse of Modernity? You have made a point of how big government dragging us into the deepest depths of Hell would invite the preeminence of a "night-watchman" state, but I'm curious as to the possible specifics of that?
Well, I just look at history. Of course, there's the general tendency of "one extreme gives way to another" (because action-reaction). And we may certainly note that every period tends to end in extreme (even absurdist) iterations of its defining traits. So what defines the current era? Competing states, centralisation of political power within the structure of said states, unprecedented scope of government (both in cost/size and assumed authority), enormous governmental debt, structural debasement of the currency, egalitarian social doctrine, criticism of tradition and traditional religion, breakdown of social and familal structures in favour of statist ones, implicit belief in progress and linear history, political legitimacy derived from an appeal to the masses, increasing demagoguery as a result of the previous point.

That's just a few striking things. We could get way more detailed and precise, but you get what I'm pointing at here. And all these trends are escalating, in certain cases already to the point of self-parody. That's only going to get worse as time passes. Since we may safely assume that this situation cannot last forever, and will end in a very unpleasant way... there's going to be major back-lash. In other words: reaction.

Just on that general basis, we may say certain things about the period after "modernity".

1. Unification of the greater culture, instead of division into competing states. A period of division gives way to one of unification, and vice versa. (This is as true and self-evident as the simple fact that Winter gives way to Spring, and Summer leads into Autumn.)

2. This will be paired with decentralisation of most political tasks to the local level. That one's less intuitively obvious, but follows logically: overly centralised empires don't tend to last very long. Besides, if the end of modernity leaves us in dire straits (as it will), the new regime will devolve loads of tasks simply because it must. To function and to survive. In addition... centralism will by then be one of the defining factors of the all-too-recent Bad Times, and therefore anathema to all right-thinking people.

3. The economy of our "modern world", which is a huge soap bubble, has exploded. While there will inevitably be government debts, particularly in the early period, the tendency will once again be to pay of "crisis debts" and "war debts" as soon as possible. (Remember, before the age of revolutions, states tended to pay off all their temporary debts in mere decades, if not mere years. And they only borrowed money during crises. Not structurally.) The money will be sound again, meaning backed by something. Probably gold. It almost always is. The key thing is that people can trust its value. The Empire legitimises itself by bringing stability. Anything that is -- or even seems -- unreliable will be bad news.

4. The simple reality of the aforementioned points means a huge reduction in the scope of government. Observe how governments in the West have only truly ballooned as of the time that the gold standard was abandoned, and public debts were increased enormously. Gee, I wonder why that is...! (Answer, for the economically illiterate: it's because our "modern" governments are literally bigger than can be paid for, so they keep printing bullshit money and borrowing bullshit money just so there's enough bullshit money for them to spend on increasingly ludicrous things. If you think this will work out, you may be Paul Krugman. And crazy. But I repeat myself.)

5. Additionally, for the terrible last decades of "modernity", what people have experienced of government has been a boot stomping on their faces (at best). At the same time, everything has broken down, so government has done nothing for anyone. Therefore, if someone announce that his government will be very involved in people's lives, that will not aid his popularity. If he says he'll leave you alone and also execute anyone who even looks like a predatory warlord, that will make people dedicate prayers to his name. The Emperor keeps you safe, and he hardly ever visits. Everybody sighs in pure relief. For this reason, government will presumably be a bit smaller, even, than it technically could be.

6. Egalitarianism was the doctrine of an age that ended in utter carnage. It has also brought nothing particularly good in the long run, since none of the advantages have survived. Conversely, social hierarchy brings certainty, and therefore safety. Also, when everything went to shit, everybody who wanted to survive had to locally, communally self-organise. I can assure you that everly democratic attempts at this rarely succeed, whereas the traditional tribal model (classical social stratification) has worked for well over ten millennia. Don't get me wrong, there will probably be a Senate or something, but it'll be more like a House of Lords (and I mean real Lords). Mass democracy will be a bad memory of a time everybody wants to leave behind. Society will be stratified, and people at the time will be very happy about the inherent security that this entails. No more chaos. No more experiments. Every thing in its place, and a place for every thing.

7. After deadly uncertainty and an unmooring of all identity, tradition and traditional religion come back in a big way. At least for a while. Modernity wants the new, the bold, the progressive. The people who survive the less pleasant outcomes of all that want the old, the safe, the familiar. They want something that has proven it can stand the test of time.

8. The collapse of the state's "social" security schemes has left people dependent on the more natural providers of such. The ones that have been doing it since time immemorial. Community and family. I already touched upon the former, but community will often be (extended) family. Expect large families, clannish structures. Those can actually do something for their members, which is the key thing. The current social attitude of "deliberately childless, I'm post-family, my cat is my baby!" will not survive.

9. Collapse tends to prove the inherent inaccuracy of the Whiggish myth, so the concept of history-as-linear-progress will be dead as a doornail, and more cyclical attitudes will be dominant again. For a while. This has the ffect of influencing the cultural attitude towards the future. It's "sense of fate", if you will. Memento mori.

10. Finally (and I'm inordinately pleased that I randomly ended up with ten points), the appeal to the masses will be a thing of the past. Nobody will want to appeal to them, and they will not want to be appealed to. Political legitimacy will derive from the source it traditionally has: the divine. Just as well. Much less tricky, far more reliable.

Now, to be clear: none of this will last. Nothing under the sun ever does. Every era ends, and things turn around again. But this gives you the general impression of "the world after modernity". There will be people who believe I've described a veritable nightmare, and there will be people who believe I've described a joyous dream. In truth, I've done neither. It will be, as all ages, a mixed bag. But the people inhabiting it will feel it's a lot better than what came right before. And history tends to view the early Empire as a Golden Age.

(I noted that I start out by looking at history. What I've now done is outline more of a general principle. Of course, a case study of any previous High Culture confirms these points. When the theory comfortably fits the facts, that's usually a sign you're onto something.)

Moreover, are there any significant ways in which you'd see this traditionalist government intervening somewhat more than present ones--such as adopting an official state religion, or even taxing people of a different denomination? Because if "neo-Augustus" could lead a crusade to retake the Middle East and force the locals to convert at gunpoint, then the much milder policies I suggested above definitely sound like fair game (in the sense of what such a government would probably do, of course!).
I'd be surprised if all of the above didn't feature in some way. They're all very normal, historically. Ultimately, these wouldn't be considered examples of a more intrusive government. Consider it: presently, we have governments generally subscribing to some kind of secularism, interfering with religions in dozens of ways, and taxing everybody through the nose. Yes? Now imagine a situation where the Empire adopts a state religion, tolerates other religions (within reason), hardly taxes anyone, allows all Churches to request tithes from their adherents, and... mildly encourages people to join the official state church by demanding that all religious dissenters pay a very modest annual heresy tax (it won't be called that, obviously).

Which of those do you think is functionally more intrusive into the lives of the citizenry?

Obviously, it's different when we look at external policy. For reasons I've outlined before, the Empire will want to focus most of its efforts outwards. Conquered unbelievers will not be treated kindly. They rarely are. Consider also that it has often been a policy to tax/exploit outsiders, and to barely (or not) tax your own citizens.

Suppose you're the Emperor. You have made all external affairs your exclusive prerogative. Let's say your legions are conquering North Africa, if only because you have to give them something to do (or some bored General might get ideas). The rest of Africa is in shambles, because the global economy collapsed and they very much needed that to survive. It's a messy warlord bonanza down there. So you declare: "All here that I behold is mine, and by right and duty, I shall bring law to the lawless". And then you start selling colonial charters. Enterprising people can purchase them, and then -- within defined regions -- anything they can grab is theirs to hold and exploit. Except, of course, for the ten percent they owe the Imperoal government, i.e. you.

Let my rephrase that: you give them permission to conquer stuff that's not even yours, and they pay you for the privilege. If they succeed, they get to keep paying you. And you don't even have to do anything. They do all the work. If you think that'll never fly, allow me to point you to every half-way capable monarch ever. This is exactly how it works. And they'll thank you for it! Because the fact that you do this means there will only be minimal bitching about claims. People only own what you said they own. And the system comes with a built-in ultimate dispute arbiter. Again: you. That's the added value of a monarch, really. That's what he's for.

My point with this little digression is to outline a way in which an early Emperor can quite literally finance his entire government, with barely any added expense, without levying a single tax within the actual borders of the Empire! This doesn't mean that he won't levy any taxes (if nothing else, it's usually considered smart to structurally remind the people that they owe you fealty, and not to let them foster the notion that they have no obligations). But typically, such taxes are low, and pretty rare. For instance, military service may well be accepted in lieu of paying the tax... and vice versa. Similarly, I'd expect (also given the chaotic post-war situation) any tax to be extremely simple. Most probably a land/property tax. (Can't hide a house! Makes taxing it very simple!) And you'd probably get something in return, too. The something is probably citizenship. As in: you're a citizen if you pay taxes, and you pay taxes for the considerable boom of being a citizen. That tends to have advantages, after all. (For starters, when somebody threatens you, the words "Civis Romanus sum" are the most powerful that can pass your lips. If attacking you means attacking the Empire, it will give most potential assailants pause.)

Naturally, none of this will last, either. As I have previously mentioned, every Empire reaches its geographical limits at some point. Once that happens, the amount of land that can be colonised/taxed/exploited becomes finite. Moreover, regions conquered early are "civilised" over time, and become proper provinces. This reduces the exploitable periphery. This forces the government to start taxing citizens (or, if such taxes already existed, raising them). It'll lead governments to start debasing the currency again. They always do that. But by that point, we're a few centuries down the line. And hey... the Principate was fun while it lasted, wasn't it?
 
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Skallagrim

Well-known member
so at what point does communism stop being a thing?
I don't expect that kind of thing to survive this century.

Of course, if you want to be very specific (to the point of pedantism): it's already stopped being a thing. What we have now is just hollow free-stuff-ism. Intellectually speaking, communism has been tried and found wanting. Plenty of loons (meaning academics, mostly -- and I say that as an academic) still busy themselves with the study of communist thinking, sure -- but that's like cultists obsessively studying oracle bones. They'll never have real influence again. At most, their ideas occasionally get adopted by opportunists, without further examination, as a flimsy excuse for more free-stuff-ism.

To be sure, I still expect plenty of Big Government and populist redistributionism as modernity reaches its end. As I said before: the demonic spawn of Hitler and Stalin gets to preside over that. But despite being a total collectivist despot, that same guy will for sure send everyone who even looks like a left-wing intellectual to the uranium mines. Look at China. When did Mohism stop being a thing? When Qin Shi Huang had thousands of pedantic scholars buried alive, that's when. And when the Qin reign collapsed after one generation, and the Han dynasty began... nobody ever even mentioned Mohism again.

That fate awaits communism, too. For the same reasons. To people a few centuries from now, it'll be one of those incomprehensibly obscure controversies of a long-gone age. They'll struggle to imagine why people got so worked up about something that inconsequential.
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
I don't expect that kind of thing to survive this century.

Of course, if you want to be very specific (to the point of pedantism): it's already stopped being a thing. What we have now is just hollow free-stuff-ism. Intellectually speaking, communism has been tried and found wanting. Plenty of loons (meaning academics, mostly -- and I say that as an academic) still busy themselves with the study of communist thinking, sure -- but that's like cultists obsessively studying oracle bones. They'll never have real influence again. At most, their ideas occasionally get adopted by opportunists, without further examination, as a flimsy excuse for more free-stuff-ism.

To be sure, I still expect plenty of Big Government and populist redistributionism as modernity reaches its end. As I said before: the demonic spawn of Hitler and Stalin gets to preside over that. But despite being a total collectivist despot, that same guy will for sure send everyone who even looks like a left-wing intellectual to the uranium mines. Look at China. When did Mohism stop being a thing? When Qin Shi Huang had thousands of pedantic scholars buried alive, that's when. And when the Qin reign collapsed after one generation, and the Han dynasty began... nobody ever even mentioned Mohism again.

That fate awaits communism, too. For the same reasons. To people a few centuries from now, it'll be one of those incomprehensibly obscure controversies of a long-gone age. They'll struggle to imagine why people got so worked up about something that inconsequential.

If that projections holds true, then I suppose they'd be pretty baffled by the fact that a litany of communist states arose while it was at its zenith. Which would only show how seriously a huge share of the world took it for a good while, much to the raised eyebrows of future history students.

Granted, I'm not sure how much attention the twentieth century will receive in the grand scheme of things, though going by your outline, I suspect it'll be remembered somewhat like how we regard the Enlightenment nowadays. That is, a historic outpouring of new extremes left, right, and center whose excesses would be overshadowed by an even greater orgy of blood and radicalism to come later. I will, however, admit that one niggling problem with that comparison is that we today look back on the Enlightenment as more of a mixed bag, whereas our "neo-traditionalist" descendants will probably treat Modernity as mostly negative and plagued with the uncertainty that comes with three centuries of overzealous political and social experimentation (rather than sticking to what works).

Having said that, I'm also wondering if what holdovers we can expect "imperial society" to retain (albeit, none to vocally)? High technology and some degree of advancement over the years is too ingrained in how we do things to do away with, so that one's pretty obvious. Other things, such as gender roles or more acceptance of different sexual preferences, seem more debatable to me. Should more subversive breakthroughs like 3D printing, cryptocurrency, and internet decentralization continue their trajectory and remain unmolested by at least the Principate, though, then I can see people who shun "un-Christian" vices in public engaging with them in privacy of their own homes like we do today (porn, gambling, etctera).
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
If that projections holds true, then I suppose they'd be pretty baffled by the fact that a litany of communist states arose while it was at its zenith. Which would only show how seriously a huge share of the world took it for a good while, much to the raised eyebrows of future history students.
Well, I referenced Mohism -- one of the so-called Hundred Schools of Thought that flourished during the Era of Contending States in ancient China. It was highly influential at the time; in serious competition with rivaling schools (e.g. Legalism), and influencing the policies of various states and the ideas of its competitors. (One might say: the same way that socialist economics certainly informed fascism, too.)

All in all, this kind of thing isn't that unusual. It won't be hard to believe, but hard to understand. Why did people fight bloody battles over minute details of the Christological debate, back in the day? To the typical denizen of modernity, this whole affair is not only incomprehensible, but even completely unknown. If you bring it up, most people won't know the details ("what the fuck is miaphysitism?"), and if explained, they won't understand why people would bash each other's skulls in over that. But they did. For centuries.

Looking back at the fanatical obsessions of our Modernity's leading ideologies is going to be a bit like that, I imagine.

Granted, I'm not sure how much attention the twentieth century will receive in the grand scheme of things, though going by your outline, I suspect it'll be remembered somewhat like how we regard the Enlightenment nowadays. That is, a historic outpouring of new extremes left, right, and center whose excesses would be overshadowed by an even greater orgy of blood and radicalism to come later. I will, however, admit that one niggling problem with that comparison is that we today look back on the Enlightenment as more of a mixed bag, whereas our "neo-traditionalist" descendants will probably treat Modernity as mostly negative and plagued with the uncertainty that comes with three centuries of overzealous political and social experimentation (rather than sticking to what works).
The Enlightenment is the start of the period. I suspect the historical consensus will be that philosophical and ideological radicalism prompts enormous bloodshed. If you look back, and try not to look through a modernist lens (which is rather difficult, since we're children of this age), it becomes clear that guillotine, gulag and gas chamber are all outcomes of the same process. A process that is typical of this age. Robespierre and Napoleon ushered in the realities of this age; Marx, Hegel, Stalin, Hitler... they merely built on that. And we're not done yet.

Of course, the further people get from this period, the less they'll focus on the horrors of it. Particularly the end of the period will probably be of great interest in the long term -- because it marks such a drastic transition.

Having said that, I'm also wondering if what holdovers we can expect "imperial society" to retain (albeit, none to vocally)? High technology and some degree of advancement over the years is too ingrained in how we do things to do away with, so that one's pretty obvious. Other things, such as gender roles or more acceptance of different sexual preferences, seem more debatable to me. Should more subversive breakthroughs like 3D printing, cryptocurrency, and internet decentralization continue their trajectory and remain unmolested by at least the Principate, though, then I can see people who shun "un-Christian" vices in public engaging with them in privacy of their own homes like we do today (porn, gambling, etctera).
Technological regression is extremely unlikely. At most, the particulars of "global civil war" will affect certain things. If someone tries to get the upper hand by using atomic weapons to destroy all communication satellites, that will obviously have an effect. Likewise, there may not be a global internet anymore, afterwards. The West and China, for instance, may just both have their own separate internets -- entirely (or almost entirely) cut off from one another.

On the other hand, the rapid advances in working remotely and conferencing digitally, as well as visual technology, may have some interesting effects on the way a huge, civilisation-spanning Empire is actually governed. I could see the Imperial Senate meeting in the form of a vast holo-conference, for instance. (I've always wondered why they don't do this in Star Wars.)

Regarding vices: it is in the nature of man, and therefore society -- at the very most -- can impose standards of propriety (enforced, most effectively, by social consequences). This does not in any way change what people get up to when (they think) nobody's looking.

Social attitudes: it's fairly probable that society, in a tradition-oriented period, leans back to what is perceived to be... well, traditional. This does not mean the exact same in every culture, obviously. And what we consider "conservative" right now does not have to correspond to what has been "traditional"/"the norm" for most of Western history. Look at drugs. Most conservatives nowadays are the big proponents of a war on drugs. But that was introduced as a typically progressive idea, and in fact only entered conservatism via the neo-conservative movement (which has its true roots in leftism). Traditionally, the idea of drugs being regulated wholesale is quite foreign to the West. (Specific, ad hoc regulations and prohibitions existed, of course. But these, too, tended to be quite fleeting compared to other cultures.) So I'd expect the idea of drug prohibition to die right along with modernity.

(I'd expect the use of drugs to decline, too. It's off the charts right now. No wonder: a neurotic, hysterical age produces people who will soon rely on relaxives to get calm, and stimulants to ecape nihilistic depression. Somewhat uncharitably, we might look at modernity like a very long psychotic episode. Once that's over, people will stop... self-medicating... to such a ridiculous degree.)
 
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Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
The Enlightenment is the start of the period. I suspect the historical consensus will be that philosophical and ideological radicalism prompts enormous bloodshed. If you look back, and try not to look through a modernist lens (which is rather difficult, since we're children of this age), it becomes clear that guillotine, gulag and gas chamber are all outcomes of the same process. A process that is typical of this age. Robespierre and Napoleon ushered in the realities of this age; Marx, Hegel, Stalin, Hitler... they merely built on that. And we're not done yet.

Yes, I know. To clarify what I meant a bit, my point wasn't to imply that Enlightenment and Modernity are two separate (but analogous) periods. Rather, it was more that, because our descendants will have a fuller picture of how the period as a whole went down, your prognosis means that they'll look askance at the era as a whole. Which, given some negative holdovers like nuclear weapons (and the effects of a potential exchange during the preceding chaos), will only reinforce the dark side of the age long after it fades into history. Whereas we, being children of the modern era and not yet having had to live through its violent collapse, have a more mixed view of the Enlightenment by itself.

Using the stylistic device you put forward before, I'd think that the Latin equivalent to "The Great Radicalization" would be an appropriate term for what we call modernity, should our descendants embrace imperial neo-traditionalism instead of sticking with Whiggish progressivism.

Although, I’d still think that with time, English will become a major second, or even de facto common language throughout the West anyway. Imposing it in so suddenly and directly may seem blatantly imperialistic to the places it occupies, but America being the epicenter of the pan-Western civilization, I imagine that English would become predominant in a slower, more organic fashion over the years. Even if doesn’t supplant the national languages of what used to be France and/or Russia, I can still see it becoming as prominent of a second language there as it already is in the Netherlands and Nordic countries. Which isn’t mutually exclusive with Latin making its comeback as the lingua franca of the West, as well.

Since the West won’t be alone, though, is there anything more specific you foresee about the Eastern Empire? I know you’ve sketched out what it’ll conquer and subsume once it emerges (the Asia-Pacific and Siberia). But beyond that, what else? I can easily imagine a long standoff between the East and West materializing sometime down the road, though how they’ll need to gathering their bearings shortly after they inception means they’ll have better things to do than to pick fights with one another. Well, unless one of them is still fresh enough for one last fight while the other’s exhausted, but even then, I’d assume that a conquest-oriented Western Empire would be busy settling the Middle East and Africa, rather than provoking its one remaining rival.

Them being two separate states that rule their respective spheres of the world, I can easily imagine them having their differences. However, do you see the Eastern Empire having a minimalist government phase of its own (something more precise than just this would be great)? At least narratively speaking, I think it’d be fitting for China to enjoy its own analogous period of decline, transition, and empire time (i.e. having another Qin Shi Huang commensurate with America’s Neo-Caesar). God forbid those two come to blows when Modernity finally overstretches, if what you’ve said is anything to go by.

On a similar note, I’m also wondering if their usage would actually mean that arguments for nuclear limitation (or even disarmament) get taken more seriously in the aftermath? Then again, if Cold War II that happens between East and West, those sentiments will probably be shoved aside.

Well, I referenced Mohism -- one of the so-called Hundred Schools of Thought that flourished during the Era of Contending States in ancient China. It was highly influential at the time; in serious competition with rivaling schools (e.g. Legalism), and influencing the policies of various states and the ideas of its competitors. (One might say: the same way that socialist economics certainly informed fascism, too.)

All in all, this kind of thing isn't that unusual. It won't be hard to believe, but hard to understand. Why did people fight bloody battles over minute details of the Christological debate, back in the day? To the typical denizen of modernity, this whole affair is not only incomprehensible, but even completely unknown. If you bring it up, most people won't know the details ("what the fuck is miaphysitism?"), and if explained, they won't understand why people would bash each other's skulls in over that. But they did. For centuries.

Given your prognosis on modern ideologies fading into history—communism, fascism, and liberal democracy among them—what will political debate probably look like in the age to follow? I assume that too much “experimentation” will be taboo at during at least the Principate phase, with an ironclad consensus that traditionalism is the gold standard (so "glory to God and the Emperor” and all that). Beyond that, I assume that most of it will be on the minutia of certain bills or the finer points of imperial strategy abroad, with average people having less heated debates over the issues of the day (since the existing order of things is best, as well as how the Emperor’s divine appointment means that he’ll probably make the right choice or something like that).

Still, with the West's status as an empire, I’d guess that robust national defense would prove key for occupying Africa and the Middle East in the short term, as well as guaranteeing movement and security across the Western hemisphere in the long one. That being the case, I can envision it becoming analogous to imperial Britain after a fashion, insofar as fielding a sprawling blue-water navy that facilitates free trade across the Empire (which plays into government being pretty hands-off, which presumably entails a laissez-faire economic system while the Principate phase lasts).

Lastly, are there any big downsides you see to this age? Depending on details regarding equal rights for all or what I’m at liberty to do in the privacy of my own home, I’d potentially be willing to travel to the world you describe if I had the choice. There would, of course, be certain aspects that I’d personally disapprove of, but that risks becoming a more overtly political discussion best reserved for elsewhere.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
According to Reilly, there's a plague caused by Thing-esque bacteria from Europa. Then everything just goes to shit over time and genetically-engineered neo-barbarians rampage around doing Mad Max shenanigans while the Empire builds giant pointless megafactories until eventually it just withers away into nothing.
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
So, what with recent events in America, it seems "Tiberius Gracchus" may get thrown in the Tiber again. If I recall, Skallagrim, you hypothesized that "Gaius Gracchus" would be showing up in the late 2020s/2030s if these problems aren't resolved now.
 

gral

Well-known member
So, what with recent events in America, it seems "Tiberius Gracchus" may get thrown in the Tiber again. If I recall, Skallagrim, you hypothesized that "Gaius Gracchus" would be showing up in the late 2020s/2030s if these problems aren't resolved now.
Someone would have to pick up the torch anyway, and he won't be able to be another Trump(even if he does stand for most/all of what Trump's supporters stand for). So I guess it was inevitable.
 

AnimalNoodles

Well-known member
I find that Chinese history offers a better comparison.

We are seeing the fall of the Washington Dynasty, and its replacement by the Obama Dynasty. The Obama dynasty is destroying the symbols of the old dynasty to help legitimize itself.

The now dominant Scholar-Bureaucrat class is fully entrenched and supports the new Dynasty, but the Obama Dynasty hasnt gotten a truely accepted Mandate of Heaven yet amongst a large segment of the population that supports the old Dynasty.
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
I find that Chinese history offers a better comparison.

We are seeing the fall of the Washington Dynasty, and its replacement by the Obama Dynasty. The Obama dynasty is destroying the symbols of the old dynasty to help legitimize itself.

The now dominant Scholar-Bureaucrat class is fully entrenched and supports the new Dynasty, but the Obama Dynasty hasnt gotten a truely accepted Mandate of Heaven yet amongst a large segment of the population that supports the old Dynasty.

The problem with that is the American Republic is not the Chinese Empire.

China is a nation with a long history of autocracy and centralisation that reaches back thousands of years. The United States is a younger country, founded on the principles of the English Enlightenment and Roman Republicanism. This is not a new dynasty arising to reign after Han implosion, this is the Optimates reaching peak corruption and retardedly digging their heels in whilst they break the Republic further and further.
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
The Chinese Empires certainly have had a cycle of plundering the cities to support the fields and plundering the fields to support the cities. I've always had a feeling about that being reflected in this conflict but I don't have enough context to really complete the comparison.

An interesting nature of the unique republican structure of the United states is how much this conflict resembles the last civil war, in that we are seeing things break up on state lines. A presidential election serves as a catalyst for the escalation of an already existing break between the urban and rural states. Are there any existing patterns of Urban VS Rural conflict in Europe? If not we should look at the Chinese pastern of Urban VS Rural for some insight into American political cycles.
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
Are there any existing patterns of Urban VS Rural conflict in Europe?

Absolutely.

Step outside the built up, metropolitan heaps, and you are in England again.

In regards to patterns, one notes this map of the English Civil War to be very interesting.

3d7f714aef8cd5655f798e0aed4ed74b.jpg


North vs South.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
To clarify what I meant a bit, my point wasn't to imply that Enlightenment and Modernity are two separate (but analogous) periods. Rather, it was more that, because our descendants will have a fuller picture of how the period as a whole went down, your prognosis means that they'll look askance at the era as a whole. Which, given some negative holdovers like nuclear weapons (and the effects of a potential exchange during the preceding chaos), will only reinforce the dark side of the age long after it fades into history. Whereas we, being children of the modern era and not yet having had to live through its violent collapse, have a more mixed view of the Enlightenment by itself.

Using the stylistic device you put forward before, I'd think that the Latin equivalent to "The Great Radicalization" would be an appropriate term for what we call modernity, should our descendants embrace imperial neo-traditionalism instead of sticking with Whiggish progressivism.
Yes, this all seems very accurate. Of course, the exact way things get (re-)interpreted down the line is not something that can be predicted in detail. For instance, I've previously suggested that the "Socratic revolution" in Athens is a lot like the Enlightenment in Europe, complete with radical nit-wit hanger-ons, and with the new philosophy inspiring a new generation of "modern" despots (starting with Alexander/Napoleon). See also the changes in fiction, which became more socially critical (Look at the satires of Aristophanes, then at Voltaire's oriental allegories. Certain similarities in approach should be obvious.)

My point being: even after the Hellenistic period, the Big Names who had philosophically preceded it (Socrates, Plato, Aristotle...) remained Big Names. They weren't suddenly forgotten or scorned. Their latter-day followers (the nit-wit hanger-ons) were mostly forgotten, though. And the leading figures were seen an a new (or old?) light.

Consider that Voltaire was a monarchist, and -- despite the modern misquotations -- firmly believed that universal religion was a conditio sine qua non for a stable society. So while loonies like Rousseau and Diderot may well end up completely scorned or ignored, I think that Voltaire will still be known and even respected. Those studying his work will just focus on quite different passages in his work than the ones that get nearly all the attention nowadays...

Although, I’d still think that with time, English will become a major second, or even de facto common language throughout the West anyway. Imposing it in so suddenly and directly may seem blatantly imperialistic to the places it occupies, but America being the epicenter of the pan-Western civilization, I imagine that English would become predominant in a slower, more organic fashion over the years. Even if doesn’t supplant the national languages of what used to be France and/or Russia, I can still see it becoming as prominent of a second language there as it already is in the Netherlands and Nordic countries. Which isn’t mutually exclusive with Latin making its comeback as the lingua franca of the West, as well.
Absolutely. No question about it. English will prevail. I have suggested Latin purely because it has a certain legitimacy to it, and I think it will inevitably become more prominent again. For all ages except modernity, the social elite has had a disinct way of speaking. Quite often in a wholly separate court language / diplomatic language. Since picking a national language (like French) for that might incur enmity in a multi-linguistic polity, Latin seems like a nice and neutral shoe-in.

Nevertheless, I'd expect people to speak English, usually. Most everyone in the West already speaks it. Of course... English will change due to this. Non-English words and phrases and bits of grammar will find their way in. Depending on who is influential in Europe, we'll see certain languages leaving their mark on the Empire's lingua franca. (A resurgence of Latin could even cause an English equivalent of historical Sarmatism in Polish -- where a romantic cultural self-image leads to deliberate alteration of the language to conform to that image.)

In general, I'm fairly confident that we'll see a return to the historically normal situation: a considerable divide between how the elite speaks, and how the masses speak.

Since the West won’t be alone, though, is there anything more specific you foresee about the Eastern Empire? I know you’ve sketched out what it’ll conquer and subsume once it emerges (the Asia-Pacific and Siberia). But beyond that, what else? I can easily imagine a long standoff between the East and West materializing sometime down the road, though how they’ll need to gathering their bearings shortly after they inception means they’ll have better things to do than to pick fights with one another. Well, unless one of them is still fresh enough for one last fight while the other’s exhausted, but even then, I’d assume that a conquest-oriented Western Empire would be busy settling the Middle East and Africa, rather than provoking its one remaining rival.

Them being two separate states that rule their respective spheres of the world, I can easily imagine them having their differences.
Like Rome and Persia: neither able -- or even willing -- to conquer the other. Persistent tension, occasional border wars (which can be politically convenient to both sides).

However, do you see the Eastern Empire having a minimalist government phase of its own (something more precise than just this would be great)? At least narratively speaking, I think it’d be fitting for China to enjoy its own analogous period of decline, transition, and empire time (i.e. having another Qin Shi Huang commensurate with America’s Neo-Caesar). God forbid those two come to blows when Modernity finally overstretches, if what you’ve said is anything to go by.
I don't see China as being at the same stage in its development. China did what we are doing over twenty-three centuries ago, and has been on the old "imperial stand-by" ever since. It falls apart, it falls back together. Rinse and repeat.

On a similar note, I’m also wondering if their usage would actually mean that arguments for nuclear limitation (or even disarmament) get taken more seriously in the aftermath? Then again, if Cold War II that happens between East and West, those sentiments will probably be shoved aside.
Disarmament will never be taken seriously. There are times of relatively good relations, and times of greater tension, but once a weapon exists, it doesn't get un-invented. On a more positive note: since annihilation benefits no established power, I could see a convention emerging where certain super-weapons are held by the major factions, but explicitly as last-resort weapons. "We will never use them in border wars, but if you threaten us on an existential level, the bets are off". Nukes as a safe-guard against true world wars. (A bit like Dune's Great Convention.)

It helps that empire's, unlike squabbling nation-states, tend to have the gravitas to really put something like that in place.

Given your prognosis on modern ideologies fading into history—communism, fascism, and liberal democracy among them—what will political debate probably look like in the age to follow? I assume that too much “experimentation” will be taboo at during at least the Principate phase, with an ironclad consensus that traditionalism is the gold standard (so "glory to God and the Emperor” and all that). Beyond that, I assume that most of it will be on the minutia of certain bills or the finer points of imperial strategy abroad, with average people having less heated debates over the issues of the day (since the existing order of things is best, as well as how the Emperor’s divine appointment means that he’ll probably make the right choice or something like that).
Court intrigue. Right now, politics are chiefly about ideology, and seep into all aspects of life. I would expect that in the future (as in the past) politics will be primarily about power, and will concern only those involved in the games of power.

This won't make politics less dirty or toxic, but it will very effectively contain the whole matter to the Imperal court and its annexes.

Still, with the West's status as an empire, I’d guess that robust national defense would prove key for occupying Africa and the Middle East in the short term, as well as guaranteeing movement and security across the Western hemisphere in the long one. That being the case, I can envision it becoming analogous to imperial Britain after a fashion, insofar as fielding a sprawling blue-water navy that facilitates free trade across the Empire (which plays into government being pretty hands-off, which presumably entails a laissez-faire economic system while the Principate phase lasts).
An empire that doesn't get its military in order is an empire that doesn't last very long.

Lastly, are there any big downsides you see to this age? Depending on details regarding equal rights for all or what I’m at liberty to do in the privacy of my own home, I’d potentially be willing to travel to the world you describe if I had the choice. There would, of course, be certain aspects that I’d personally disapprove of, but that risks becoming a more overtly political discussion best reserved for elsewhere.
Downsides can come in all sorts of shapes. I'm certain they'll be there, but I can't predict what they'll be. You'd have to delve into fictional examples, really, to get an impression. But just as a possibility: one might imagine the penal system mostly consisting of convicts being worked to death.

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According to Reilly, there's a plague caused by Thing-esque bacteria from Europa. Then everything just goes to shit over time and genetically-engineered neo-barbarians rampage around doing Mad Max shenanigans while the Empire builds giant pointless megafactories until eventually it just withers away into nothing.
Do keep in mind that he was very much writing fiction. His examples are purely there to give a taste of "something like this might happen". He also took the analogies pretty literally, again purely for fun. So there are literal neo-barbarians, created in a sci-fi way. Meanwhile, the huge mega-factories mirror the shitty economic policies that always plague the Dominate.

I can't really explain the extra-terrestrial plague, though. Maybe he just wanted to put in an "outside context problem" to illustrate that there are always things you can't really plan for. I don't know.

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So, what with recent events in America, it seems "Tiberius Gracchus" may get thrown in the Tiber again. If I recall, Skallagrim, you hypothesized that "Gaius Gracchus" would be showing up in the late 2020s/2030s if these problems aren't resolved now.
Someone would have to pick up the torch anyway, and he won't be able to be another Trump(even if he does stand for most/all of what Trump's supporters stand for). So I guess it was inevitable.
It really seems that people liked Trumpism more than they liked Trump personally. His message resonated. I'd be very surprised if someone didn't pick up the banner to carry it forward.

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I find that Chinese history offers a better comparison.

We are seeing the fall of the Washington Dynasty, and its replacement by the Obama Dynasty. The Obama dynasty is destroying the symbols of the old dynasty to help legitimize itself.

The now dominant Scholar-Bureaucrat class is fully entrenched and supports the new Dynasty, but the Obama Dynasty hasnt gotten a truely accepted Mandate of Heaven yet amongst a large segment of the population that supports the old Dynasty.
America is still very young. It's not that dynastic (yet) and is at present just one (albeit clearly the most powerful) state in an international system. If we're going for Chinese comparisons, I really feel that America is like the Warring State if Qin. The one that ultimately came to dominate all China (and in fact gave it its name).

There will no doubt be dynastic cycles but we're not there yet. Dynastic politics are very different from what we're seeing now.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
An interesting nature of the unique republican structure of the United states is how much this conflict resembles the last civil war, in that we are seeing things break up on state lines. A presidential election serves as a catalyst for the escalation of an already existing break between the urban and rural states. Are there any existing patterns of Urban VS Rural conflict in Europe? If not we should look at the Chinese pastern of Urban VS Rural for some insight into American political cycles.
Rome had the same pattern in its Republican days. The Populares originated as the 'country party' that represented the populace of the Italian hinterland (and the urban lower class). And yes, we see the same in Europe. Rural regions and working class urban households are the main electorate of the "populist right". Same held in China, too. The state of Qin itself was a Western, rural frontier country -- essentially a colony that had made itself sovereign. (Sound familiar?) The educated elites back East saw them as country bumpkins. The country bumpkins won. And even though the reign of Qin Shi Huang was a terror of epic proportions, who should succeed him and establish the Han dynasty? (Which went on to rule for some five centuries; just as long as the Roman Empire held together in one piece?) It was the the Gaozu emperor... who had of course been born as Liu Bang: a mere country peasant.

If you want to sum up the history of civilisation, you could do worse than "urban elites fuck everything up, rural folk and urban workers have to join forces to put it all back together".
 

Navarro

Well-known member
Do keep in mind that he was very much writing fiction. His examples are purely there to give a taste of "something like this might happen".

Very true.
He also took the analogies pretty literally, again purely for fun. So there are literal neo-barbarians, created in a sci-fi way.

Meanwhile, the huge mega-factories mirror the shitty economic policies that always plague the Dominate.

I don't think a declining empire would descend wholesale into Mad-Maxery so much as break up or be conquered by foreign powers. If we can look at technological progress for instance, the Middle Ages actually had a higher technological level than Rome, but reduced organisational capacity.

I can't really explain the extra-terrestrial plague, though. Maybe he just wanted to put in an "outside context problem" to illustrate that there are always things you can't really plan for. I don't know.

It was a really freaky sci-fi horror concept for sure. This plague that kills you and then puppeteers your corpse keeping on a semblance of yourself when ultimately there's no "there" there ...

Maybe it was meant as an allegory to how the Romans were pushed back in the Teutoburg forest?
 

AnimalNoodles

Well-known member
The problem with that is the American Republic is not the Chinese Empire.

China is a nation with a long history of autocracy and centralisation that reaches back thousands of years. The United States is a younger country, founded on the principles of the English Enlightenment and Roman Republicanism. This is not a new dynasty arising to reign after Han implosion, this is the Optimates reaching peak corruption and retardedly digging their heels in whilst they break the Republic further and further.

But do american factions align with the populares and optimates? The american factions are the elite and those who desire to join it, allying with the bottom against the middle. Who are the populares, who are the optimates?
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
But do american factions align with the populares and optimates? The american factions are the elite and those who desire to join it, allying with the bottom against the middle. Who are the populares, who are the optimates?

Optimates=metropolitan elite (Uniparty Globalists)

Populares=everyone else (MAGA Republicans), because the Optimates have fucked things up that badly.
 

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