History Western Civilization, Rome and Cyclical History

FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder
So I had some thoughts on the nature of history and the impact of Rome on Western Civilization. I personally believe that all of Western Civilization is in essence Rome and then after its fall people recreating it or taking aspects of it. Rome went from kingdom, to Republic, to Empire under a Caesar. In that same sense after the fall of Rome you had Kingdoms, and then a transition into Republican forms of government across the west, which to me seems naturally empire under a Caesar type figure would then follow.
 

Xilizhra

Well-known member
So I had some thoughts on the nature of history and the impact of Rome on Western Civilization. I personally believe that all of Western Civilization is in essence Rome and then after its fall people recreating it or taking aspects of it. Rome went from kingdom, to Republic, to Empire under a Caesar. In that same sense after the fall of Rome you had Kingdoms, and then a transition into Republican forms of government across the west, which to me seems naturally empire under a Caesar type figure would then follow.
We've already had some of those. They tend to burn out a lot more quickly nowadays than they used to.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
Macrohistorical analysis is perhaps my favourite subject of all possible subjects. Even if a particular view of history isn't convincing, the view itself tends to reveal a lot about the thinking that informs it -- and this is usually very interesting. (For instance: I have very often encountered a near-hysterical aversion to the concept of cyclical history among the sort of people who believe that the morals and views of "modernity" represent the "final stage of history".)

Regarding what "Western civilisation" really is: I must disagree with the assessment that it is "in essence Rome (...)". On the contrary: it seems quite clear to me that the Roman Empire was the culmination of the preceding cycle (in the relevant bit of the world). I don't think that Oswald Spengler was correct about everything, but he certainly intuited the basic principles. (his claims were often very astute, and his attempts to then rationalise those intuitive claims occasionally fall short.) Spengler argued that the development of a High Culture, if not dramatically pertubed by outside forces (e.g. conquest by another High Culture), will follow a fairly predictable route. I tend to agree. Obviously, Spengler had his own views, and I have mine. This is more my own "neo-Spenglerian" view than his actual argumentation, so keep that in mind/

The interesting thing is: I still arrive at the same prediction of an "Empire yet to come". So did Spengler. But it's not because the West is basically Rome and people imitating Rome. Rather, it's because the Roman Empire was the inevitable conclusion of every succesful High Culture's natural life-cycle. As such, the history of the West will culminate in something similar. I think it may be a lot sooner than some people think....

To outline my own views on this, I'll draw up a comparison between the history of the Classical World and that of the Western World. I could add lines of comparison to other High Cultures, such as China and Ancient Egypt, but that would probably clutting things up too much. So I'll limit myself to just the two.

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-- Most High Cultures emerge in the wake of another's collapse, with a post-cultural/pre-cultural transition phase in between. The (or some of the) ancestors of those who will found the arising culture may well have a hand in dealing the death blow to the dying culture. Thus, one might compare the founding of the Mycenaean culture by Indo-Europeans moving into the Aegean region around the sixteenth century BC to the Germanic peoples moving into the territory of the crumbling Roman Empire around the Fifth century AD.

-- The arising culture is not yet formed, but already thrives and expands in its pre-cultural stage, feeding off the corpse of whatever preceded it. In fact, this success is what allows it to consolidate and truly become. Compare the Mycenaeans expanding to subdue Minoans (1500 BC - 1540 BC) to the Merovingians forming a an expansionist Frankish realm (AD 509 - AD 537).

-- Upon this basis, the successful "upstarts" manage to become more consolidated, with a classical cultural heartland beginning to emerge. This is when the culture really comes into being, emerging from its pre-cultural stage to become a more defined and self-aware whole, with a real identity. Expect a leading dynasty coming to its zenith in the form of a monarch who is going to be be important in a cultural context. Compare Agamemnon and Charlemagne. Usually this is also the time where you find archetypal and mythologised cultural heroes who embody the warrior-ideal that will become emblemic for the culture, usually by dying very famously. Compare Achilles and Roland. (Oh, and the Great King usually has a forebear who paved whe way or established the dynasty: compare Atreus and Charles Martel.)

-- The leading dynasty tends not to last long, having achieved its success on the basis of some really exceptional people being really exceptional. So you get a period of political disintegration, where it seems for a bit that everything is going to the dogs again, and that the chaotic period that existed before the rise of the ruling dynasty is coming back. Compare the Greek Dark Ages to the Post-Carolingian disintegration.

-- Fortunately, that period doesn't last very long, and the culture finds its footing again. The heartland becomes less all-important, as ties to surrounding regions become more important. At the same time, the core ideas established earlier are (via those same connections) spread more widely. Compare the Greek Archaic Period to the High Middle Ages. This is a dynamic, vitalic period of expansion and growth.

-- Defining cultural epics take shape during the period of disintegration, but are only recorded/compiled at the end of that period, or at the start of the subsequent period. In fact, this happens in large part because order is returning to the world. Compare the Greek Epic Cycle (pertaining to the events before the Greek Dark Ages, but recorded/compiled in a 'canonical' form in the first half of the seventh century BC) and the Matter of France & the Nibelungenlied (pertaining to or rooted in much earlier historical events, but compiled in the twelfth century AD).

-- Similarly, the transition between the era of disintegration and the era of restoration also marks a cultural and intellectual renaissance that precedes the expansionism of the latter period. The first 'thinkers' who may be called "definitive" of the culture's intellectual tradition arise. The classical Greeks considered this period to be the origin of the philosophical tradition, typically citing Thales of Miletos as the first of the 'greats'. Similarly, in the West, we see the ascent of the scholastics, with none so prominent as Thomas Aquinas (who may be deemed the first true "Western" thinker, and in fact the man whose ideas came to define what "Western thought" means).

-- The thriving period of expansion (archaic period / high middle ages) runs into a Malthusian limit (too many people, to concentrated) which invites famine and plague to do a real number on society. Compare the Agrarian crisis of the 7th century BC to the Black Death of the 14th century AD.

-- In the latter stages of this period, foreign rivals truly begin to encroach. Compare Akhaimenid supremacy over once-Greek Western Anatolia to.... Turkish supremacy over same.

-- In the subsequent period, those foreign rivals launch a far deeper invasion. Xerxes invades Greece itself; Suleiman besieges Vienna. Nevertheless, the invaders are cast back from the heartland.

-- Internally, we now arrive at a stage wherein the culture, having defined many of its forms, is at a crossroads. There is a great internal division about which traits are truly the important ones. Two factions arise, and the culture becomes divided against itself in the resulting rivalry over values, core beliefs, and political/social norms. Compare the struggle between Athens and Sparta to that between Catholics and Protestants.

-- This culminates in a major war that is supposed to settle the matter to a great extent. Compare the Peloponnesian War to the Thirty Years' War.

-- Unfortunately, the side unfit to reign wins; although it achieves success, it doesn't have the legitimacy to take over the whole culture and become the true and undisputed intellectual/cultural leader. That would be Sparta and the Protestants, respectively. The victors thus can't truly capitalise upon their success, and he losing side isn't vanquished.... but at the same time, the losing side can't regain the initiative. Thus, the underlying issues are not resolved.

-- Due to this division, a pandora's box has been opened, and all sorts of radicalisms and reforms spill out into the world. The old order has been delegitimised too thoroughly, but the competitors can't usurp the position adequately. A descent into chaos ensues. Brilliant philosophers arise, but their ideas are deemed (and very well may be) dangerous. Yes, Socrates and his intellectual heirs are cognates to the Enlightenment philosophers.

-- Destabilisation of the old political and intellectual order allows for an unpstart ruler of relatively ignoble birth to achieve meteoric succes. Compare Alexander and Napoleon. This conqueror doesn't achieve lasting success, but his very existence leads to a collection of powerful states, with increasingly far-reaching powers (unsee in previous ages, when government was fairly minimal), which engage in heated rivary with on another. Compare the Hellenistic kingdoms to the modern nation-states. (In the subsequent period, keep an eye out for a fairly powerless fringe state that embraces innovative ideas and quickly becomes way more powerful.)

-- A period of competing states and increasingly horrifying ways of waging war now arrives. "Total war" becomes a bit of a thing now. If you want to draw comparisons between the Romans razing Carthage and salting the earth and the USA fire-bombing and nuking cities in Japan... well, that's because such comparisons make sense. That upstart nation of quasi-barbarians that the hoi polloi back east looked down on? Yeah, that's become the foremost power within the culture's bounds now. (Of course, all the well-educated Romans still felt Greece was cultured and worthy of respect, and well-educated Americans feel the same about Europe. They are right in both cases. Some Greeks felt the Romans were boorish barbarians, and some Europeans feel the same about Americans. They are wrong in both cases.)

-- This period is defined by all those innovative ideas that got introduced a bit earlier. Those ideas tend to embrace concepts like "more egalitarianism", and all sorts of fairly radical reforms. All sorts of social behaviour that was previously considered 'deviant' becomes more and more of a fait accompli. Radicals bitterly rage, because despite getting all these things done, they always want more. Conservatives despair and believe the world is going to hell in a handbasket.

-- Politics in this period become more and more acerbic and populist, particularly in the power that is becoming dominant. We see a classical struggle between a cosmopolitan elite faction and a populist faction. These factions become less and less civil with each other, and soon armed mobs associated with both groups begin to manifest. Violence begins to escalate.

[WE ARE HERE]

-- Obviously, as of this point, I can no longer define what happens in the West. It hasn't happened yet! Or has it? It's happened in the Classical world already. All of this has happened before. So what happened? Things continued to escalate, to the point of political murder, blood in the streets, and ultimately civil war. Not even about ideology, but about naked power: whoever wins gets to butcher the opposition. Funny story: Caesar, as "transition tyrants" go, was one of the mildest and most humane in history. He didn't butcher his opponents, and pardoned most of them instead. For his trouble, he was brutally murdered. Compare Qin Shi Huang, who fulfilled the same role in China: he had countless people put to the death because he suspected some of their ideas might be subversive.

-- In the end though, it makes little difference. If the transition tyrant is too mild, he gets stabbed by people he failed to kill. Result: civil war, final round. If the transition tyrant is brutal enough to kill all the people who might (and would) otherwise stab him to death, he ends up being so brutal (by default) that his dynasty becomes unacceptable to too many. Result: civil war, final round.

-- The funny thing about this whole bloodbath is that its backdrop is pretty much literally the collapse of all civilisation. Thankfully, that's temporary. Why? Because the civil war goes on until the right guy wins. Why? because nobody except the riht guy can accrue sufficient legitimacy to seize lasting power. How does the right guy manage it? By being the most reactionary man the world has seen in three hundred years. (Incidentally, the period that is thus concluded somehow seems to always last around three centuries. So in the West, where it started in the second half of the 18th century, we may expect it to conclude -- in bloody fashion -- in the second half of this century.)

-- Remember that the period in question was defined by inter-state rivalry and all sorts of reform, radicalism, egalitarianism and "modern" thinking. That ends. The man who seizes power over a world that has torn itself apart deliberately reaches back to tradition. He makes real the idea of the universal "high king" who theoretically held supreme worldly authority at the culture's inception. Agamemnon never ruled the classical world. Augustus did. Charlemagne never ruled all Christendom. But I assure you: the man who may style himself "Emperor of the West" will.

-- At this point, I hold that a culture becomes a civilisation: when it is politically united into one polity. The Universal Empire. This is also when it finalises its cultural and intellectual traditions, and begins to calcify. That's more-or-less why Spengler, while fully expecting there to be an Imperial phase lasting hundreds of years, called his book Der Untergang des Abendlandes. The foundation of the Empire is the inevitable commencement of the final phase of a culture's history. To be finished... is to be finished.

-- The Universal Empire lasts about five centuries. The first half is pretty relaxed: the preceding period saw a lot of government activism, and look how that ended up, eh? So the Principate (if you will) is a time wherein government demands fairly little of the common man. Everybody reveres the Emperor, but most people never see him. He's an idea, more than a person. This kind of thing has its draw-backs, and when the carnage that led up to the Empire's foundation fades from memory, shit starts up again. That's how you get a crisis period. Not fun. It gets resolved, but the government that becomes the norm afterwards is much more powerful and interventionist. (Spoiler alert: governments that get too big inevitably fail after a while: they're too expensive to keep functioning normally, so they always over-tax the populace, debase the currency and/or rack up the debt. This never ends well.)

-- The Empire comes to an end. Internal problems, declining vitality, a dying economy. More youthful barbarian competitors. When there has been order for too long, disorder becomes inevitable. Maybe some successor entity will hold on, like the Byzantine Empire. (But note how quickly those guys became Greek again, in all but name. The real Romanitas evaporated quickly. That will happen to any hypothetical future counterpart, too.) In China, which is centred on a well-defined core region surrounded by rather excellent natural barriers, civilisation ended, fell apart... and then fell back together. That cycle kept repeating. Same happened in Ancient Egypt, for the same reason. It didn't happen to Classical/Roman civilisation. I wouldn't expect it to happen to the even more geographically disparate West, either. When we end, the best we may hope for is that our Universal Empire may be the "Rome" to some later culture: a revered but ultimately distant ancestor.

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So, yeah. That's my view of history, and of the next six hundred years or so. It's long and rambling, but I refuse to apologise: this part of the site has "essays" in the title, after all!


Minor edit -- My initial post made brief reference to the USA bombing Dresden. This was of course a sloppy error on my part, which @PsihoKekec pointed out to me. This was done, very courteously, via PM; but the error was mine, and the credit for correcting it should go to the one who spotted it. Thanks!
 
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gral

Well-known member
Hmm. You have good points, and you may well be right, but I don't think you can extrapolate something that has happened once(in the case of the fall of Roman civilization) as something that will happen again. Yes, the cycle repeated itself with the Chinese and Egyptian civilizations, but as you said, they are contained by geographical barriers that isolate them from the world at large.

Again, you might be right(at least the timeline fits up to now), but it's the extrapolation from a single event to a cycle that makes me uncomfortable.

Unrelated thought: what you posted could be a real good base for a sci-fi setting.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I agree with the thesis, but I think it's only describing political epicycles on a broader cycle of history. So we can use the same understanding of history to divine the entire operation of the cosmos, of which the cyclical view of the formation of civilisation is only a small perturbation. I will try to respond with the level of detail and effort that is appropriate very soon, though I can't tonight; I am just encouraging people as a priming comment, to imagine all of creation by this same principle.
 

FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder
I want to expand a bit on reasoning on why I think most of Western History post the Fall of Rome can be described as the attempt to recreate Rome. Virtually everyone drew some legitimacy from being Roman or a Roman successor. These include the Roman Catholic Church, a direct successor and surviving institution of the Roman Empire, the Holy Roman Empire (should be obvious enough), the Tzar, Kaiser of Germany, and the Ottomans all adopting Roman titles that are obvious enough as well, America, which also used large amounts of Roman symbology, called its capital Rome on the Potomac, originally named the Army the Legion, drew heavily from it in crafting its government. There are so many examples of this but most western governments relied on something Roman, whether it was drawing heavily or at least a facade of it to establish that it was a legitimate government. It’s something that I believe is embedded in the western cultural psyche in a way that is permanent and lasting.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
Unrelated thought: what you posted could be a real good base for a sci-fi setting.
This sort of thinking underpins the world-building in the two most famous sci-fi works there are. Both Asimov's Foundation and Herbert's Dune are informed by macrohistorical notions. There are others that very purposely try to mimick the Spenglerian idea, but those tend to be a bit pulpy. Another example, which is only adjacent to sci-fi in that it takes place in the future, is Hesse's Das Glasperlenspiel.

That being said: with all the whiggish historiography being peddled in sci-fi, I definitely agree that more works using a more cyclical view as their basis would be great. Could show people a perspective they hadn't considered before.

I want to expand a bit on reasoning on why I think most of Western History post the Fall of Rome can be described as the attempt to recreate Rome. Virtually everyone drew some legitimacy from being Roman or a Roman successor. These include the Roman Catholic Church, a direct successor and surviving institution of the Roman Empire, the Holy Roman Empire (should be obvious enough), the Tzar, Kaiser of Germany, and the Ottomans all adopting Roman titles that are obvious enough as well, America, which also used large amounts of Roman symbology, called its capital Rome on the Potomac, originally named the Army the Legion, drew heavily from it in crafting its government. There are so many examples of this but most western governments relied on something Roman, whether it was drawing heavily or at least a facade of it to establish that it was a legitimate government. It’s something that I believe is embedded in the western cultural psyche in a way that is permanent and lasting.
I agree that "calling back" to Rome is structural. Of course, what other example of legitimacy is there? Everything else is far more distant, to the point of being historically unknown in Europe. So Rome was the Empire, and all ambitions towards universal hegemony will take some inspiration from it.

This, however, does not make Westerners into Romans. We may take titles, but the meaning we attribute to them is very different. The very conception of authority itself, for instance, is very different in Western culture than it was in Rome. And Americans may liken themselves to Rome (not even entirely without merit), but we should keep in mind that the defining structure of American political organisation -- federalism -- is one that was completely alien to Rome. (To the point that they literally couldn't invent it to save their lives; Rome was Rome, and authority could not be "divided"/"split" in the manner that federalism inherently requires.)

I suspect that whatever Empire might arise in the West will have Roman trappings. Considering the long-lasting status of Latin in Western history, and the issues presented by the multi-lingual nature of the Western World, I daresay it's quite viable for Latin to make a come-back as the "Imperial language". But that still doesn't make Westerners into Romans. I certainly don't agree with Spengler's argument that all High Cultures are fundamentally so different that they can transfer nothing meaningful amongst themselves, and that the West therefore has essentially nothing to do with Rome. The evidence doesn't back that up. I do think that what we inherit from a predecessor-culture is always limited. We take elements that we like, and we re-contextualise them (intentionally or unintentionally). But we are not them. Imagine, if you will, using stones from Roman buildings to build castles and cathedrals. Perhaps even using some arches and columns wholesale, and building new things around them. The resulting structures certainly owe something to ancient Rome, and sometimes it's something quite meaningful... but they are not actually ancient Roman buildings, are they?

That same thing, but applied to culture as a whole instead of just architecture. That's pretty much how I see the relation between ancient Rome and the West.
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
So, yeah. That's my view of history, and of the next six hundred years or so. It's long and rambling, but I refuse to apologise: this part of the site has "essays" in the title, after all!

Fascinating and quite a possible outlook on history and the future, although I would dispute some things. The "Romanitas" never went anywhere, they just started calling themselves Italians. Whilst the Roman Empire died, its cultural (and to an extent ethnic) core survived and reconstituted itself (for both West and East via Italy and Greece respectively). I've become convinced it's bloody hard to destroy a culture, because like a weed it will grow back one day as people don't forget their heritage for the most part.

Neither was Rome's decline inevitable per say. So many bad decisions had to be made for it to reach where it was in 476 AD (and 1453 whilst we're at it) that it's almost a tragicomedy. Not only that, practically every reformist minded Emperor had to be offed (eg. Aurelian, Majorian), and every great general back stabbed (Stilicho and Flavius Aetius. Honorius and Valentinian III, what the fuck were you thinking!?) You're assessment that it's an over mighty and detached state that ruins everything is dead on, however.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
Fascinating and quite a possible outlook on history and the future, although I would dispute some things. The "Romanitas" never went anywhere, they just started calling themselves Italians. Whilst the Roman Empire died, its cultural (and to an extent ethnic) core survived and reconstituted itself (for both West and East via Italy and Greece respectively). I've become convinced it's bloody hard to destroy a culture, because like a weed it will grow back one day as people don't forget their heritage for the most part.
I agree that cultures tend to be tenacious, but on the other hand: time dissolves all mortal things. Paired with serious social ruptures, this means that lines of continuity do get broken.

As far as Italy goes, I'd say that the influx of Germanic peoples wasn't the end of a Roman identity (they tended to Romanise themselves, since that improved their social standing). But the latter stages of the Gothic Wars did end up devastating. Rome became a ruined shell of a city for a while there, and the old institutions broke down; even the Senate ended up being a meaningless body that ultimately just... evaporated. I don't think the Romans simply started calling themselves Italians. The Kingdom of the Lombards was not in any meaningful sense "Roman". A lot of its population descended from the historical Roman population of Italy, certainly, and cultural influence and heritage is clear and obvious. But the Lomardic realm was very much a feudal entity. Roman law was outright abandoned, and had to be re-discovered starting in the 11th century. Lombardic influence on the language accelerated the already rapid decline of Vulgar Latin. If we look at Italy in the 7th century, there can be little doubt that neither its inhabitants of that time nor the Romans of preceding ages would recognise or describe that Italy as being "Roman".

When I mentioned the Romanitas (Roman-ness) disappearing, I was specifically referring to the Eastern Roman Empire, which ceased to be Roman as well. In fact, it started turning into a Greek state almost immediately upon the collapse of the Western Empire -- but on the other hand, it clung to the claim of being "Roman" for much longer. The problem is that this claim was soon rendered utterly hollow. Of course, the Byzantines do in fact underscore your core point about the tenacity of cultures: by being so very Greek, they proved that Greek culture had lived through the entire Roman period, and promptly resurfaced afterward. (I personally have a strong suspicion that if the Byzantines had adbandoned all Roman/Imperial pretenses, and had instead embraced their identity as a latter-day iteration of the Greek despot kingdom tradition, they'd have fared better overall. But that's a bit of a digression...)

Neither was Rome's decline inevitable per say. So many bad decisions had to be made for it to reach where it was in 476 AD (and 1453 whilst we're at it) that it's almost a tragicomedy. Not only that, practically every reformist minded Emperor had to be offed (eg. Aurelian, Majorian), and every great general back stabbed (Stilicho and Flavius Aetius. Honorius and Valentinian III, what the fuck were you thinking!?) You're assessment that it's an over mighty and detached state that ruins everything is dead on, however.
Inevitable is indeed too big a word. Then again, it ultimately comes down to probability. Yes, a lot of bad decisions had to be made. Yes, a lot of things had to go wrong. I think that at this stage, there's simply a high chance of such things happening. Yes, there can be a great leader who turns things around, but in the latter days of the Empire, he will be a man against the tide. The reverse is also true: I think there are potential Caesars (or Alexanders, etc.) around all the time. And theoretically, such a figure can arise at any time. But usually, there's too many things working against that. But the very factors that (in my opinion, at least) cause discernible patterns in history also cause there to be times when the time is right for such a man to arise. And behold: we see competing candidates duking it out. A particular stage in a culture's history simply favours such men, and at those junctures, they rise to the top.

Conversely, the stage in a culture's history where the Universal Empire is on its retour does not lack for highly capable men. The circumstances of their age simply don't tend to favour them. They get stabbed in the back because this is an age where back-stabbers thrive and proliferate. I don't think it's deterministically set or something, but the odds of anyone lastingly reviving a declining Empire at this stage are simply not good. That's why we see Universal Empires lasting c. 500 years, and rarely longer.

One key factor in this is quite simple: Universal Empires are... universal. They conquer their culture's whole world, until they reach the utmost bounds. The Romans did, and were confined in the North by the marginal swamps and forests (practically useless until the invention of the heavy plough, which they lacked); in the West by the Atlantic (couldn't be effectively crossed or explored without certain navigation tools that they lacked); in the South by the Sahara (couldn't be crossed by a meaningful military force); and in the East by Persia (too far away and too large to effectively conquer, and even if utterly defeated, still too large to hold).

Rome conquered just about everything it could conquer. There were some minor options, of course, but nothing too large or profitable. Here's the crux: Empires are wealth pumps. The main business of empires is to pump wealth from the periphery to the core. But at the same time, Empires assimilate. Conquered barbarians are civilised, and become citizens in time. At that point, you an't exploit them like subject peoples anymore. At least not to anything like the same extent. Which means: Empires must keep expanding. Once that stops, the Empire is going to die. It will take centuries, but it will happen. Since Universal Empires are so big, they tend to have reserves. They tend to stop expanding early on (during the Principate), and then they can live on for a long time. The end of the expansion phase contributes to a crisis: expansion either becomes inviable, or can only be continued (and if foolishly attempted) at prohibitive expense. Either way, you get a time of troubles. There troubles are overcome, and the Empire gets reformed. Welcome to the Dominate. By this time, you're living on borrowed time: it'll all be over within two centuries.

(I phrase that in a bold manner, but hasten to nuance it by re-iterating that it's not deterministic. A scenario where the Roman Empire lasts significantly longer can be contrived, and it can be plausible. But it won't be the probable course of events.)
 

Firebat

Well-known member
There are so many examples of this but most western governments relied on something Roman, whether it was drawing heavily or at least a facade of it to establish that it was a legitimate government.
There is collecting cultural bling and there is reliance. Roman titles and cultural references were something people adopted after establishing the basis for legitimate government. Ottomans were a thing before they snagged another fancy title. So were Russian principalities and American secessionists. Otto the Great made himself the power player before being proclaimed Holy Roman Emperor.
In that same sense after the fall of Rome you had Kingdoms, and then a transition into Republican forms of government across the west, which to me seems naturally empire under a Caesar type figure would then follow.
In this day and age, there aren't any foreign lands that could be effectively plundered, so Caesar is off the table.
 

ATP

Well-known member
So I had some thoughts on the nature of history and the impact of Rome on Western Civilization. I personally believe that all of Western Civilization is in essence Rome and then after its fall people recreating it or taking aspects of it. Rome went from kingdom, to Republic, to Empire under a Caesar. In that same sense after the fall of Rome you had Kingdoms, and then a transition into Republican forms of government across the west, which to me seems naturally empire under a Caesar type figure would then follow.

Well,our cyvilisation is made from roman law - but also greek definition of Truth and catholic church morality.
Like somebody said,Western cyvilisation is city builded on three hills - Capitol,Acropol and Golgotha.And Golgotha is most important for us.
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
There is a lower order cycle that influences this. It is embodied in the near mythic personalities of Plato and Aristotle. The philosophical outlook of society oscillates between rationalism and romanticism. When rationalism peaks, it gets into determinism, which is rejected by human nature and the course reverses towards romanticism. When Romanticism peaks, it gets completely detached with reality, which is rejected by the human senses and the course reverses towards rationalism.

The Reinsurance was a romanticist movement which brought about the Enlightenment which was a rationalist movement. The last peak was the positivist movement which reversed into the Romanticist postmodernist movement. Postmodernism is peaking, and society will reverse course.

Unfortunately this is coinciding with one or more peaks of other cycles, producing the current mess.
 

FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder
Well,our cyvilisation is made from roman law - but also greek definition of Truth and catholic church morality.
Like somebody said,Western cyvilisation is city builded on three hills - Capitol,Acropol and Golgotha.And Golgotha is most important for us.
Catholic Church morality is a Roman institution. It’s in the name, was founded by them and has directly continued and is built off the foundation they laid.
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
Conversely, the stage in a culture's history where the Universal Empire is on its retour does not lack for highly capable men. The circumstances of their age simply don't tend to favour them. They get stabbed in the back because this is an age where back-stabbers thrive and proliferate. I don't think it's deterministically set or something, but the odds of anyone lastingly reviving a declining Empire at this stage are simply not good. That's why we see Universal Empires lasting c. 500 years, and rarely longer.

A question I've mulled over for a while, is why do the backstabbers backstab? It didn't work out for any of them in the long run at all. It's like they had surprised pikachu faces when, after murdering the man keeping the Empire together and the borders secure, the barbarians smash down the gates and chop them all to pieces. How could none of them have seen that coming?

I do agree with your overall sentiment. Empires are wealth pumps and when that runs out the system collapses, and the longer they go on the greater likelihood of collapse. Although I would ponder the question of "what happens if the diminished Empire can transition to nation state or even super state?" Nations, not quite so dependent on funneling wealth in from the exterior, should prove a little more stable in the long run.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Catholic Church morality is a Roman institution. It’s in the name, was founded by them and has directly continued and is built off the foundation they laid.

Well,no.Romans morality was was only for romans - barbarians and slaves could be treated as bad as romans wonted.
And they considered killing their babies as good method of regulating number of people,too.
Moreover,they were big on Law - if law said that killing X is good, they killed X.

Catholics had one morality for everyone - and all people,including slaves,were sons/daughters of God.
And for us Law which is against God is no law.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
A question I've mulled over for a while, is why do the backstabbers backstab? It didn't work out for any of them in the long run at all. It's like they had surprised pikachu faces when, after murdering the man keeping the Empire together and the borders secure, the barbarians smash down the gates and chop them all to pieces. How could none of them have seen that coming?

It was a continuation of the political problems which brought down the Republic, which the early Principate kept a lid on for a short while. With the great length of lines of communication and travel at the time, the fundamental problem was that the soldiers were ultimately more loyal to the generals (who paid them) than the Emperor, who was a distant figure in Rome itself. Also, the Empire never developed a formal succession system to ameliorate this. Western Rome still muddled along (bar the collapsing economy, which every attempt to save just made worse) until it failed to assimilate the incoming barbarian foederati as it previously had to instill a sense of Romanitas, which resulted in them forming internal power blocks hostile to the Empire.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
A question I've mulled over for a while, is why do the backstabbers backstab? It didn't work out for any of them in the long run at all. It's like they had surprised pikachu faces when, after murdering the man keeping the Empire together and the borders secure, the barbarians smash down the gates and chop them all to pieces. How could none of them have seen that coming?
They did see it coming. They saw it happening. That's one reason why the back-stabbing proliferates at such times. Same reason why a big mass of people in a burning building tend to trample each other to death in an attempt to get to the exit, even though orderly filing out would be more efficient. Panic drives people to stupidity. When the empire is in decline, and there is less and less wealth to divide, competition increases. Uncertainty abounds: will the next year be even worse than the last? So you act now, instead of waiting. Short-term benefits become leading, because there may not be any long-term perspectives...

Obviously, that's self-furthering, so it gets worse and worse. So the opportunistic short-term preference becomes even more vindicated as the only sensible approach. Which makes things worse still. And so on and so forth.

A really capable ass-kicker with a lot of luck and a group of reliable loyalists can turn things around, but he'll have to crack a lot of skulls to get it done. As it happens, luck and loyalists are both in short supply at such times.

I do agree with your overall sentiment. Empires are wealth pumps and when that runs out the system collapses, and the longer they go on the greater likelihood of collapse. Although I would ponder the question of "what happens if the diminished Empire can transition to nation state or even super state?" Nations, not quite so dependent on funneling wealth in from the exterior, should prove a little more stable in the long run.
I also feel that transitioning from an Imperial to a national model could and probably would be an effective survival strategy. Of course... identity is what it is. Usually, the people(s) with a distinct sense of national/tribal identity are the ones tearing the Empire down (quite often without really intending to do so; they mostly want to loot it, but it's already much weaker than most people comprehend at that stage). Those defending the Empire do so because of an imperial ethos; transitioning to a nationalist's mindset is not intuitive under those circumstances.

Would have been an option for the Byzantines, though. I mentioned that earlier: the Empire had fractured, and they were rapidly becoming very Greek. If they'd run with that, turning their state into a Greek kingdom instead of trying to maintain Imperial structures, attitudes and pretenses... they might have done very well for themselves. (For instance: Justinian's re-conquests looked good on the map, but were actually a net drain -- and a big one.)
 
D

Deleted member 88

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One thing I do wonder is why there wasn’t the cycle of unification, division, reunification as happened in Imperial China.

Was it European ethnic diversity? Or it’s geography? Was it because Europe had competing poles of political power?

India, the Islamic World and China all went through periods of prolonged strife and division. But reunited, or at least attempts were made.

(You could argue the past century of the Middle East has been at attempt find some basis on which to reunite it after the collapse of the Ottomans).

China used to be more multipolar. But it grew and grew despite civil wars, barbarian invasions and anarchy.

What makes the west and China different?
 

Navarro

Well-known member
One thing I do wonder is why there wasn’t the cycle of unification, division, reunification as happened in Imperial China.

Was it European ethnic diversity? Or it’s geography? Was it because Europe had competing poles of political power?

India, the Islamic World and China all went through periods of prolonged strife and division. But reunited, or at least attempts were made.

(You could argue the past century of the Middle East has been at attempt find some basis on which to reunite it after the collapse of the Ottomans).

China used to be more multipolar. But it grew and grew despite civil wars, barbarian invasions and anarchy.

What makes the west and China different?

Frankish succession law. The Carolingian Empire was heading towards a neo-Roman Empire controlling all of Western and Central Europe outside of areas of Spain and England ... but it deleted itself from history as Charlemagne divided it amongst his sons.
 

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