Russian-Ukrainian-Polish Eternal Friendship Thread

History Learner said:

I'm not exactly a fan of the modern West, if you haven't picked up on that.

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You could say that I'm more of a fan of the Western tradition than of everything that the present-day West stands for. Still, I like the moderate alt-right, alt-lite, alt-center, and alt-left, though I myself obviously belong in either the alt-left or alt-center category (or perhaps in the alt-center left ). I like Robert Stark:


I think that the Western establishment is flawed but that alternative Western political movements could sometimes offer a hope for a better future. Sometimes.

History Learner said:

This has been something I've been saying for ages, which is one reason I'm more amendable to Russian desires. In the Second Cold War, do you want the Russians as a neutral or a foe? It's a question many need to consider here.

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Why have a second Cold War at all? Why piss off the Chinese?

WolfBear said:

Why have a second Cold War at all? Why piss off the Chinese?

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Quite a few people here think I'm a CCP shill because I take a similar viewpoint in general, but that's just because I'm realistic; we need to fix issues at home but in the long run China and us will inevitably have a showdown of sorts. I'd rather have Russia on side for that, even if that means we go back to 1991 borders for them.

History Learner said:

Quite a few people here think I'm a CCP shill because I take a similar viewpoint in general, but that's just because I'm realistic; we need to fix issues at home but in the long run China and us will inevitably have a showdown of sorts. I'd rather have Russia on side for that, even if that means we go back to 1991 borders for them.

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There's no way in Hell that I would approve of Russia incorporating new subjects against their will, but I do agree with your general gist here. FWIW, this is why I am in favor of Donbass separatism but also much more opposed to further Russian incursions into Ukraine, especially outside of the Donbass area.

WolfBear said:

There's no way in Hell that I would approve of Russia incorporating new subjects against their will, but I do agree with your general gist here. FWIW, this is why I am in favor of Donbass separatism but also much more opposed to further Russian incursions into Ukraine, especially outside of the Donbass area.

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I'm slightly Slavophile, which tends to confuse the hell out of people given I tend to argue German victory in both World Wars was more likely and possible than commonly accepted on AH forums nowadays. In 2018, I was hoping we would see a Union State of Ukraine, Russia and Belarus emerge after the current government in Kiev is kicked out, followed by a detente between Poland and Russia ultimately resulting in a new Pan-Slavic (Plus associates, like Romania and Hungary) bloc emerging in Eastern Europe.

Incredibly naive, but it was my hope at the time. I was somewhat influenced by George Friedman too.

Husky_Khan said:

Obviously, feel free to ignore me but it would be nice if we all could talk like general adults unless we're actually legitimately provoked. There was a huge 'argument' where Marduk and History Learner and Zachowon and Bacle and everyone was involved prior to this and while there was ad hominems and obvious antipathy including insults, they didn't go right off the bat with silly slurs, probably because its infantile.

Like you could just call people Liberals or Progressives or Conservatives or NeoConservatives or Right Wingers. But calling people (or just stating your opinion and implying anyone who disagrees with you with such slurs) Tards, Cucks, Nazis, Nigs, Fags, Groomers, Pedos and other moronic shit because they disagree with you on school choice or fiscal monetary policy or Central Asian foreign relations is pretty shit and deleterious when it comes to the quality of the "free speech" discussion on this website.

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Ok, dude, you apparently need to re-read what I have written thus far again, because somewhere you have missed the point.

Explain to me, where exactly am I calling anyone on here a Cuckservative or a NeoLibtard, no one here is that stupid.
The Cuckservatives and the neolibtards are the ones setting the policy in Washington and Brussels and racking in all the profits from all the endless wars while safeguarding their inconsistent ideology-based institutions and keep those blobs of slime(NATO, the EU, the US foreign intervention Libtard establishment, the US military-industrial complex) going and flush with cash.
Some beleive their own gibberish, others are just using it as a way to mooch more money.

We are discussing a particular current series of events, until someone here decided to go of topic with some ASB hypothetical discussion that had little to do with that situation and was, in my opinion, virtue signalling and an attempt to bait me into attacking the likes of Churchill and Patton, who are considered heroes on the right.

TL;DR evasion and crappy rhetorical tactics on the part of my oponent who can't stay on topic and needs to resort to stupid tirckery.

History Learner said:

I'm slightly Slavophile, which tends to confuse the hell out of people given I tend to argue German victory in both World Wars was more likely and possible than commonly accepted on AH forums nowadays. In 2018, I was hoping we would see a Union State of Ukraine, Russia and Belarus emerge after the current government in Kiev is kicked out, followed by a detente between Poland and Russia ultimately resulting in a new Pan-Slavic (Plus associates, like Romania and Hungary) bloc emerging in Eastern Europe.

Incredibly naive, but it was my hope at the time. I was somewhat influenced by George Friedman too.

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Initially I was hoping that we can use Ukraine to slavianize and commie-proof the EU(You know, good stuff like banning most chairs and prohibiting all soft drinks except for kvas.Force krauts, french and other westerners to pay massive, direct reparations. [Note for SJW classic and chickenhawks, this is humor!])
My opinion of Putin wasn't all that good initially, because he was too apologetic and even sounded somewhat nostalgic for the USSR and that communist gibberish.
However, after some time I see him as a much better leader than anyone in the west and in the EU's eastern feudal domains.
I have always been an EU skeptic, and the reason why an Eastern European oligarchy usually wants to join the EU is because they want to mooch off of the various EU funds, that is IMHO what happened in Ukraine.

Ukraine goes back to its original borders peacefully, then becomes closer to the west is something I am, and I am pretty sure Putin would be, fine with.

King Arts said:

Here's something interesting what Russians think there top 5 enemies and friends are. What do you guys think?

Russia’s top enemies: US, Ukraine, Turkey and Poland

Russians also included Lithuania and Latvia in their list of top foes in a poll.

www.politico.eu

America and Ukraine are at the top.

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That’s pretty much been par for the course since 1946. There was a brief window in the early 90s where it was better as Western stuff started appearing in Moscow and St. Petersburg, but as things progressed and things didn’t improve for the average Russian, their opinion continued to shrink, especially as Yeltsin kept fucking around and we kept supporting him.

Zachowon said:

Don't forget DE Gaul having France no longer in the NATO chain of command.

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I pointed this out in a reply to Bacle some pages back, but France fully rejoined the chain of command in 2009. Even before then (well, at least after De Gaulle was out of office/dead), the mutual understanding was that France would slot back in if the Cold War went hot.

WolfBear said:

Why have a second Cold War at all? Why piss off the Chinese?

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This is getting a bit off topic, but basically it comes down to “America exists” is what pisses them off. More specifically, the fact that we take interest in making sure the Atlantic and Pacific are secure, and that China wants to upend that calculus because they want to regain their historic place as the center of Asia. So, there is going to be friction/hostility because two roughly equal sides with opposing objectives and views are going to butt heads. The only alternative is for a war to go hot, which…no, thank you.

Airedale260 said:

That’s pretty much been par for the course since 1946. There was a brief window in the early 90s where it was better as Western stuff started appearing in Moscow and St. Petersburg, but as things progressed and things didn’t improve for the average Russian, their opinion continued to shrink, especially as Yeltsin kept fucking around and we kept supporting him.



I pointed this out in a reply to Bacle some pages back, but France fully rejoined the chain of command in 2009. Even before then (well, at least after De Gaulle was out of office/dead), the mutual understanding was that France would slot back in if the Cold War went hot.



This is getting a bit off topic, but basically it comes down to “America exists” is what pisses them off. More specifically, the fact that we take interest in making sure the Atlantic and Pacific are secure, and that China wants to upend that calculus because they want to regain their historic place as the center of Asia. So, there is going to be friction/hostility because two roughly equal sides with opposing objectives and views are going to butt heads. The only alternative is for a war to go hot, which…no, thank you.

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Oh I know.
I was just saying that disagreements between them all is normal.

And there has always been a cold war. It never ended

Airedale260 said:

That’s pretty much been par for the course since 1946. There was a brief window in the early 90s where it was better as Western stuff started appearing in Moscow and St. Petersburg, but as things progressed and things didn’t improve for the average Russian, their opinion continued to shrink, especially as Yeltsin kept fucking around and we kept supporting him.

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Oh, really, alcoholism, mortality rates, purchasing power and employment all going down while inflation goes up are a good thing now?
Chaos, break up of the country, loss of trade, increase in crime and corruption...
Most Russians would disagree, hence Putin's massive popularity.

Airedale260 said:

I pointed this out in a reply to Bacle some pages back, but France fully rejoined the chain of command in 2009. Even before then (well, at least after De Gaulle was out of office/dead), the mutual understanding was that France would slot back in if the Cold War went hot.

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And its president and his top contenders for the next presidential term are all against fooling around with Ukraine, all seem to desire reapproachment with Russia and want to ditch NATO in favor of something else.

Airedale260 said:

This is getting a bit off topic, but basically it comes down to “America exists” is what pisses them off. More specifically, the fact that we take interest in making sure the Atlantic and Pacific are secure, and that China wants to upend that calculus because they want to regain their historic place as the center of Asia. So, there is going to be friction/hostility because two roughly equal sides with opposing objectives and views are going to butt heads. The only alternative is for a war to go hot, which…no, thank you.

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America existed for, what, 150 years before it became interventionist and started working towards the expansion of neo-liberal global hegemony?

Remind me, how many challenges did ya'al have from the Great Powers on the Old Continent because of, "Muh Freedom", neither did they organize an Axis of Evil to destroy the Democracy in places like Switzerland, which is probably the longest-running decentralized democratic country on the planet.
The Vienna Congress did not organize a military campaign to crush the various republics in the Low Countries, it just dealt with the cluste-fuck that was a belligerent France ran for decades by murderous lunatics, first the likes of Robespeirre, then the dictatorship and expansionism of Napoleon.

No one gave a shit about your political system or the illusions you have about democracy, everyone cares about the fact that you are trying to tilt at windmills and that process is exploited by various fringe actors, grifters and your military-industrial
complex.

But Muh Freedom, doesn't cut it anymore, nor does democracy promotion actually work.

Either a sufficiently large majority puts in sufficient effort to change a political system from the inside, or it does not happen.

Here, free yourself of Blob propaganda:


However, the Cult of Globalist Liberalism is beyond the scope of this thread, so here is another another video that is more about Ukraine:

Agent23 said:

Oh, really, alcoholism, mortality rates, purchasing power and employment all going down while inflation goes up are a good thing now?
Chaos, break up of the country, loss of trade, increase in crime and corruption...
Most Russians would disagree, hence Putin's massive popularity.

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Take a minute to read what I *actually* wrote, and note that I was specifically referring to the 1991-1994 period. Perhaps I should have clarified, but those first few years (Gorbachev's Pizza Hut ad ring any bells?) there was hope Russia would *finally* catch up to the West, but that was mainly to the two cities and even then, didn't last. The reasons for that are the different things you pointed out, among others. It's just that "Why do the Russians think so poorly of America" is because of a number of reasons, chief among them that they and we butt heads over a lot of stuff, except for a very brief window.

Agent23 said:

And its president and his top contenders for the next presidential term are all against fooling around with Ukraine, all seem to desire reapproachment with Russia and want to ditch NATO in favor of something else.

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How does this pertain to what I actually said? Are you disputing that France didn't rejoin NATO command? If so, this is news, please provide an article or two.

As for France wanting an Europe-centric force, yes, I know, but it should be noted that this was prior to an actual threat arising and them finding out the hard way Germany is a less-than-reliable partner, to say nothing of the rest of Europe, which was skeptical at first and is now not on board at all.

Agent23 said:

Snip.

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You're new here, so I'll cut you a little slack. But you need to stop assuming and ascribing motives to people without any proof that those beliefs exist. Your incoherent whining aside, you need to note that the world has changed A LOT in the past 120 years. Among those changes are improvements in communication and travel, which make it easier to get around but also mean that it can take hours to get someplace where it used to be weeks or months.

So I *strongly* suggest you take a minute and think about all that, instead of whining about "American imperialism" and "globalists" and whatnot when you clearly have zero clue what you're talking about, or who you're talking *to.*

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." Wise words that you'd do well to heed in the future.

Airedale260 said:

Take a minute to read what I *actually* wrote, and note that I was specifically referring to the 1991-1994 period. Perhaps I should have clarified, but those first few years (Gorbachev's Pizza Hut ad ring any bells?) there was hope Russia would *finally* catch up to the West, but that was mainly to the two cities and even then, didn't last. The reasons for that are the different things you pointed out, among others. It's just that "Why do the Russians think so poorly of America" is because of a number of reasons, chief among them that they and we butt heads over a lot of stuff, except for a very brief window.

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Or maybe russinas do not like it when you:
- interfere with their national interests and internal affiars.
- call their leaders killers and other colorful terms.
- you push a political system they find of dubious use and utility, and that does not work nearly as well as advertised.

Airedale260 said:

How does this pertain to what I actually said? Are you disputing that France didn't rejoin NATO command? If so, this is news, please provide an article or two.

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Google Macron, EU Army.
Google LePen Russia.

Airedale260 said:

As for France wanting an Europe-centric force, yes, I know, but it should be noted that this was prior to an actual threat arising and them finding out the hard way Germany is a less-than-reliable partner, to say nothing of the rest of Europe, which was skeptical at first and is now not on board at all.

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Macron floats EU security pact with Russia, risking western split over Ukraine

Airedale260 said:

You're new here, so I'll cut you a little slack. But you need to stop assuming and ascribing motives to people without any proof that those beliefs exist. Your incoherent whining aside, you need to note that the world has changed A LOT in the past 120 years. Among those changes are improvements in communication and travel, which make it easier to get around but also mean that it can take hours to get someplace where it used to be weeks or months.

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Yeah, yeah, "The end of History", aka Fukuyama's folly, Russians have had more and more opportunities to travel evern since the 1990s, and internet access, Putin still number one.
The liberal globalist theory about everyone joining America-led globalist liberal utopia bandwaggon if given the chance fell flat on its face long ago.
We saw that in Afghanistan, Iraq, Egypt, Libya, Vietnam, dozens of interventions in the sovereign affairs of other nations for over 100 years, all in the name of WIlsonian liberalism.
However if you persist with trying to destabilize other great powers, to sanction them, to attack them in the international media, well, there self-fulfilling prophecies are a thing.

"My, what wonderful things humans could achieve, if only they were not human".
Georges Clemenceau in regard to Wilson's pipe dreams.

Airedale260 said:

So I *strongly* suggest you take a minute and think about all that, instead of whining about "American imperialism" and "globalists" and whatnot when you clearly have zero clue what you're talking about, or who you're talking *to.*
"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." Wise words that you'd do well to heed in the future.

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I am talking to somebody who has drank the neoliberal Hegemony Kool Aid, why don't you educate yourself further by watching the videos of John Mearsheimer that I linked to.
I am sure that he is clueless as well and you can refute his thesis like you did mine, oh, wait, you did not.

Neo-Liberalism is a cult, its priests are the various elites in Washington, Brussels, and a few other EU capitols, this religion, like all religions, is out of touch with reality, so they constantly have to go on witch hunts and find demons to slay so as to justify their power.

Like Russian Hackers, or Russian Invasions, or imaginary Nazis.
Or Islamic Fundamentalists that "Want to destroy America for your freedoms"

If you want to continue worshiping at the altar of NeoLib gibberish, go ahead.

As I pass through my incarnations in every age and race,
I make my proper prostrations to the Gods of the Market Place.
Peering through reverent fingers I watch them flourish and fall,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings, I notice, outlast them all.

We were living in trees when they met us. They showed us each in turn
That Water would certainly wet us, as Fire would certainly burn:
But we found them lacking in Uplift, Vision and Breadth of Mind,
So we left them to teach the Gorillas while we followed the March of Mankind.

We moved as the Spirit listed. They never altered their pace,
Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market Place,
But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come
That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in Rome.

With the Hopes that our World is built on they were utterly out of touch,
They denied that the Moon was Stilton; they denied she was even Dutch;
They denied that Wishes were Horses; they denied that a Pig had Wings;
So we worshipped the Gods of the Market Who promised these beautiful things.

When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace.
They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease.
But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "Stick to the Devil you know."

On the first Feminian Sandstones we were promised the Fuller Life
(Which started by loving our neighbour and ended by loving his wife)
Till our women had no more children and the men lost reason and faith,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "The Wages of Sin is Death."

In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,
By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;
But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "If you don't work you die."

Then the Gods of the Market tumbled, and their smooth-tongued wizards withdrew
And the hearts of the meanest were humbled and began to believe it was true
That All is not Gold that Glitters, and Two and Two make Four
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings limped up to explain it once more.

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

The Gods of the Copybook Headings
Rudyard Kipling

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The four most expensive words in the English language are, ‘This time it’s different.’

Sir John Marks Templeton

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Agent23 said:

Or maybe russinas do not like it when you:
- interfere with their national interests and internal affiars.
- call their leaders killers and other colorful terms.
- you push a political system they find of dubious use and utility, and that does not work nearly as well as advertised.


Google Macron, EU Army.
Google LePen Russia.


Macron floats EU security pact with Russia, risking western split over Ukraine

Macron floats EU security pact with Russia, risking western split over Ukraine

Potential break comes as US urges ‘unity’ among Nato and European allies in confronting Moscow aggression

www.ft.com

Yeah, yeah, "The end of History", aka Fukuyama's folly, Russians have had more and more opportunities to travel evern since the 1990s, and internet access, Putin still number one.
The liberal globalist theory about everyone joining America-led globalist liberal utopia bandwaggon if given the chance fell flat on its face long ago.
We saw that in Afghanistan, Iraq, Egypt, Libya, Vietnam, dozens of interventions in the sovereign affairs of other nations for over 100 years, all in the name of WIlsonian liberalism.
However if you persist with trying to destabilize other great powers, to sanction them, to attack them in the international media, well, there self-fulfilling prophecies are a thing.

"My, what wonderful things humans could achieve, if only they were not human".
Georges Clemenceau in regard to Wilson's pipe dreams.





I am talking to somebody who has drank the neoliberal Hegemony Kool Aid, why don't you educate yourself further by watching the videos of John Mearsheimer that I linked to.
I am sure that he is clueless as well and you can refute his thesis like you did mine, oh, wait, you did not.

Neo-Liberalism is a cult, its priests are the various elites in Washington, Brussels, and a few other EU capitols, this religion, like all religions, is out of touch with reality, so they constantly have to go on witch hunts and find demons to slay so as to justify their power.

Like Russian Hackers, or Russian Invasions, or imaginary Nazis.
Or Islamic Fundamentalists that "Want to destroy America for your freedoms"

If you want to continue worshiping at the altar of NeoLib gibberish, go ahead.

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You do know De Gaul was not fond of NATO that he was sdoing things by homself...
France being France is nothing new

Zachowon said:

You do know De Gaul was not fond of NATO that he was sdoing things by homself...
France being France is nothing new

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Eh Macron's actual comments were pretty underwhelming in spite of the headlines anyhow:

The Moscow Times said:

“It’s good that Europeans and the United States coordinate, but it’s necessary that Europeans conduct their own dialogue,” Macron told the European Parliament. "We must put together a joint proposal, a joint vision, a new security and stability order for Europe. We should build as Europeans working with other Europeans and with NATO and then propose it for negotiation with Russia."

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It was part of his thirty plus minute long address to the European Parliament and it took the mainstream media a few days to realize there were quotes they could extract to make juicy headlines.

He also stated this in regards to the current crisis surrounding Ukraine.

France 24 said:

"Security on our continent requires strategic rearmament," he said, adding that "frank and demanding" talks with Russia were also required.

At the heart of the framework would be principles agreed with Russia 30 years ago, Macron said – including rejecting the use of force or coercion, giving states the "choice to accede to alliances or bodies that they wish to" and the "rejection of spheres of influence".

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The European Union being more pronounced in dealing with European Security issues isn't something new, especially out of France. But it's still filled with plenty of dialogue about support democracy and all that jazz as well. Macron has always been considered the Pro-European Moderate or Centrist or whatever compared to Le Pen's more right wing Nationalism.

Zachowon said:

You do know De Gaul was not fond of NATO that he was sdoing things by homself...
France being France is nothing new

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Yeah, the frogs have a pretty France-centric international policy, you know, like any nation-state that is worth a damn should.
France doesn't see a point in getting involved with Ukraine, Germany doesn't see a point in getting involved with Ukraine, I think most of continental Europe aside from Poland, the Baltic countries and some other places that have had bad history with Russia do not want to get involved with Ukraine, because it is not in their interests to have a war in Europe or to damage relations with Russia and interfere with energy supplies.
And maybe some even understand that half of Ukraine is Russian linguistically and culturally, and that maybe that half would be better off as an autonomous country or as part of the Russian Federation.

At the heart of the framework would be principles agreed with Russia 30 years ago, Macron said – including rejecting the use of force or coercion, giving states the "choice to accede to alliances or bodies that they wish to" and the "rejection of spheres of influence".

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That alone shows that he is pretty much trying to either play to both sides, which naturally cannot go anywhere, or is lying to one of the sides.
Because if he truly meant that part, this is not a deal Putin will accept. Note the laser like precision of how these last 2 points hit at current Russia-Ukraine relations.

Marduk said:

That alone shows that he is pretty much trying to either play to both sides, which naturally cannot go anywhere, or is lying to one of the sides.
Because if he truly meant that part, this is not a deal Putin will accept. Note the laser like precision of how these last 2 points hit at current Russia-Ukraine relations.

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Yeah sensationalist headlines aside, it seems like France and Germany are just taking a more 'wait and see' stance considering its all been posturing up to this point while Britain, the USA, Poland and Baltics and some others are more active diplomatically and in supplying the Ukrainian forces.

Husky_Khan said:

Eh Macron's actual comments were pretty underwhelming in spite of the headlines anyhow:



It was part of his thirty plus minute long address to the European Parliament and it took the mainstream media a few days to realize there were quotes they could extract to make juicy headlines.

He also stated this in regards to the current crisis surrounding Ukraine.

France's EU presidency: Macron calls for European 'collective security' pact, dialogue with Russia

French President Emmanuel Macron urged Europe to invest in its own collective security framework in the face of Russian military moves on the bloc’s doorstep. He also called for a “frank” EU dialogue…

www.france24.com

The European Union being more pronounced in dealing with European Security issues isn't something new, especially out of France. But it's still filled with plenty of dialogue about support democracy and all that jazz as well. Macron has always been considered the Pro-European Moderate or Centrist or whatever compared to Le Pen's more right wing Nationalism.

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Macron is a swamp creature, the bland neoliberal please everyone type of person, he has also been angling for the top dog position in Europe ever since Merkel decided to quit the shit-show she built.
IIRC he got astro-turfed out of nowhere in order to stop LePen and some of the more hardline leftists after both Hollande and Sarkosy fell on their faces and made fools out of themselves, and he flip-flopped on issues pretty hard.

Basically the Mitt Romney or the Rishi Sunak of France, all 3 have a lot of connections in the financial world and the nomenclatura.

History Learner said:

I'm slightly Slavophile, which tends to confuse the hell out of people given I tend to argue German victory in both World Wars was more likely and possible than commonly accepted on AH forums nowadays. In 2018, I was hoping we would see a Union State of Ukraine, Russia and Belarus emerge after the current government in Kiev is kicked out, followed by a detente between Poland and Russia ultimately resulting in a new Pan-Slavic (Plus associates, like Romania and Hungary) bloc emerging in Eastern Europe.

Incredibly naive, but it was my hope at the time. I was somewhat influenced by George Friedman too.

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A German victory in WWI (as opposed to WWII) would have actually been much better for Russia than what actually happened in real life if it would have subsequently been accompanied by a German overthrow of the Bolsheviks. In such a scenario, Russia would have been reduced to its Brest-Litovsk borders + Central Asia and maybe Belarus, but that's no worse than real life and it would also have two times as many people in its Russian core due to no extremely massive 20th century demographic devastation. Russia would also be considerably richer in such a scenario right now, most likely. Communism tends to make countries poorer relative to what they would have otherwise been, and the Communist legacy takes decades to fully shake off.

As for an East Slavic Union State, IMHO, it always was a pipe dream after 1991.

WolfBear said:

As for an East Slavic Union State, IMHO, it always was a pipe dream after 1991.

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Give the west a few more decades of self-destructive leftist/liberal gibberish and that pipe dream might become far more realistic.

Agent23 said:

Give the west a few more decades of self-destructive leftist/liberal gibberish and that pipe dream might become far more realistic.

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We'll see ... we'll see.

Ironically, if Russia takes a huge bite out of Ukraine (in order to create a neutralist buffer state there), then this could make it easier for the remainder of Ukraine to move beyond its Soviet past and successfully deal with things such as corruption. The former USSR is notoriously bad for its corruption even in comparison to the Balkans: