Alternate History Ideas and Discussion

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History Learner said:
Both, you'd probably see the Monarchy restored while National Syndicalists take over politically, sort of like Fascist Italy. There'd probably be a Civil War, but Berlin would make sure nothing would come of it.
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I'm surprised that the Syndicalists were pro-monarchy, honestly.

@Zyobot @Skallagrim @stevep 'AHC: Have Russia become just as much of an immigration hub as the present-day US is. And bonus points if Russia gets to avoid decades of Communist rule beforehand'
 
WolfBear said:
'AHC: Have Russia become just as much of an immigration hub as the present-day US is. And bonus points if Russia gets to avoid decades of Communist rule beforehand'
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I'm tempted to go back to the pro-Mongol days, and avoid the whole Mongol Empire. Prior to that, Russia was actually quite the "land of liberty", with peasants having more rights than almost anywhere in Europe. If that trend continues, I can easily see waves of Eastward migration throughout history. For many, it would be easier than crossing the Atlantic.

(For hilarity, we could imagine that -- as a side effect -- America ends up relatively under-populated and dominated by land-holders who keep the common folk in servitude to work their land. Ultimately becoming quite a bit more like OTL Tsarist Russia.)
 
Skallagrim said:
I'm tempted to go back to the pro-Mongol days, and avoid the whole Mongol Empire. Prior to that, Russia was actually quite the "land of liberty", with peasants having more rights than almost anywhere in Europe. If that trend continues, I can easily see waves of Eastward migration throughout history. For many, it would be easier than crossing the Atlantic.

(For hilarity, we could imagine that -- as a side effect -- America ends up relatively under-populated and dominated by land-holders who keep the common folk in servitude to work their land. Ultimately becoming quite a bit more like OTL Tsarist Russia.)
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With a PoD that far back, though, it's far from clear that the USA would ever actually exist in its current form!
 
WolfBear said:
With a PoD that far back, though, it's far from clear that the USA would ever actually exist in its current form!
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Skallagrim said:
Certainly. But an America would exist. I don't think people would just never sail West.
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Agreed.

It'd still be ironic, though, if Russia became the great entrépot of ATL's equivalent to Classical Liberalism (or some "Russified" version of it, at least). Hope the rest of the continent(s) converts alongside it, of course, though far be it from me to predict where the monarchs will fly next.
 
WolfBear said:
Yeah, but to be honest, I want a later PoD--ideally in the very early 20th century--because I don't want to change the world too much.
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I'm afraid that one effect of my Catholic education is that I always feel compelled to go back to First Causes. The further back I can take things, the happier I am. If I can make something happen by way of a POD that involves Alexander the Great, then by jingo, I'll do it! :D
 
Skallagrim said:
I'm afraid that one effect of my Catholic education is that I always feel compelled to go back to First Causes. The further back I can take things, the happier I am. If I can make something happen by way of a POD that involves Alexander the Great, then by jingo, I'll do it! :D
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Re: Alexander the Great: I always found it fascinating how he was able to establish Greek-influenced states around the region that it some cases lasted for up for a couple of centuries or even a bit longer than that.

BTW, do you think that Alexander's untimely death had anything to do with that near-life-threatening arrow injury that he sustained in his Indian campaign? Yes, they were able to remove that arrow, but still, I'm wondering if this arrow sufficiently weakened him to cause his death in Babylon some three or so years later.
 
Skallagrim said:
I'm afraid that one effect of my Catholic education is that I always feel compelled to go back to First Causes. The further back I can take things, the happier I am. If I can make something happen by way of a POD that involves Alexander the Great, then by jingo, I'll do it! :D
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You're quite an Alexander fan, I take it?

Also, @WolfBear, I don't suppose a late nineteenth century PoD would qualify for an immigration-friendly Russia? I don't recall off-hand, but I believe there was a more liberal Tsar (or, at least, significant royal family member) who was assassinated before he could enact the resulting policies. Which then gave Nicholas II a mandate to double down on stubborn absolutism and sacrifice all hope of liberal reforms for inevitable communist revolution...
 
Zyobot said:
You're quite an Alexander fan, I take it?

Also, @WolfBear, I don't suppose a late nineteenth century PoD would qualify for an immigration-friendly Russia? I don't recall off-hand, but I believe there was a more liberal Tsar (or, at least, significant royal family member) who was assassinated before he could enact the resulting policies. Which then gave Nicholas II a mandate to double down on stubborn absolutism and sacrifice all hope of liberal reforms for inevitable communist revolution...
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You're thinking of Alexander II and his more conservative son Alexander III (Nicholas II's father), actually. But the thing is that even Alexander II's planned reforms were fairly modest and at best only comparable with what Nicholas II achieved in 1905-1906:

en.wikipedia.org

Loris-Melikov's constitutional reform - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Nicholas II's creation of a Duma (without much actual power, similar to how Alexander II himself envisioned one back in 1881) in 1905-1906 did not prevent the two Russian Revolutions in 1917.
 
WolfBear said:
BTW, do you think that Alexander's untimely death had anything to do with that near-life-threatening arrow injury that he sustained in his Indian campaign? Yes, they were able to remove that arrow, but still, I'm wondering if this arrow sufficiently weakened him to cause his death in Babylon some three or so years later.
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I'm of the opinion that Hephaistion's sudden death was what did him in. Alexander's Macedonian lifestyle was always pretty wild (they took binge drinking to a whole other level), but after his closest companion died, Alexander spiraled into self-destruction. This makes sense when we consider his self-image: he viewed himself as the reborn Akhilles, and Hephaision was his Patroklos. When Hephaistion died, as patroklos had died, Alexander was consumed by grief just as Akhilles had been consumed by grief. He even took the exact same steps, cutting his hair and slaughtering cattle and erecting a great pyre and seeking out enemies to indiscriminately slaughter as if in offering to the Gods. In short: he mimicked the reactions of Akhilles down to the details.

And then he sought death, because Akhilles cannot live when Patroklos has perished. He exhibited all the signs of someone who's self-destructive. His drinking became literally suicidal.

Some suspect he was poisoned, but I don't think poison was needed. Alexander essentially killed himself. And then he became immortal in the memory of mankind, just like his idol Akhilles. All in all, a fitting end.
 
Skallagrim said:
I'm of the opinion that Hephaistion's sudden death was what did him in. Alexander's Macedonian lifestyle was always pretty wild (they took binge drinking to a whole other level), but after his closest companion died, Alexander spiraled into self-destruction. This makes sense when we consider his self-image: he viewed himself as the reborn Akhilles, and Hephaision was his Patroklos. When Hephaistion died, as patroklos had died, Alexander was consumed by grief just as Akhilles had been consumed by grief. He even took the exact same steps, cutting his hair and slaughtering cattle and erecting a great pyre and seeking out enemies to indiscriminately slaughter as if in offering to the Gods. In short: he mimicked the reactions of Akhilles down to the details.

And then he sought death, because Akhilles cannot live when Patroklos has perished. He exhibited all the signs of someone who's self-destructive. His drinking became literally suicidal.

Some suspect he was poisoned, but I don't think poison was needed. Alexander essentially killed himself. And then he became immortal in the memory of mankind, just like his idol Akhilles. All in all, a fitting end.
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Interesting. I'm honestly surprised that Alexander could not find himself a new close and intimate lover, even if he could not fully replace what Hephaistion was to him.
 
WolfBear said:
Interesting. I'm honestly surprised that Alexander could not find himself a new close and intimate lover, even if he could not fully replace what Hephaistion was to him.
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Some things, some people, you just can't replace. I'm not even convinced it was, at that point, romantic/sexual anymore. THeir relationship was already somewhat a-typical (with them being the same age, and considering each other peers and equals), but such relationships would be sexual in youth, and then develop into deep friendship later in life. Nevertheless, when Sisygambis mistook Hephaistion for Alexander (because he was taller), Alexander said that she was not mistaken at all, "for he, too, is Alexander".

I think he meant that. I think that in a very real way, Alexander was half-dead from the moment he lost Hephaistion.
 
Skallagrim said:
I'm afraid that one effect of my Catholic education is that I always feel compelled to go back to First Causes. The further back I can take things, the happier I am. If I can make something happen by way of a POD that involves Alexander the Great, then by jingo, I'll do it! :D
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One idea I've been playing with lately is King Henry VIII dying in the 1520 or early 1530s, preventing England from going Protestant and saving the monasteries. Long term end result being a Catholic *United States* and maybe Netherlands too.
 
History Learner said:
One idea I've been playing with lately is King Henry VIII dying in the 1520 or early 1530s, preventing England from going Protestant and saving the monasteries. Long term end result being a Catholic *United States* and maybe Netherlands too.
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You had me at "Henry VIII dying" and it just got better from there. :cool:
 
History Learner said:
One idea I've been playing with lately is King Henry VIII dying in the 1520 or early 1530s, preventing England from going Protestant and saving the monasteries. Long term end result being a Catholic *United States* and maybe Netherlands too.
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What's the relation with the Netherlands here?

Skallagrim said:
You had me at "Henry VIII dying" and it just got better from there. :cool:
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It won't necessarily get better if we get a Queen Bloody Mary earlier! :( And no Elizabeth I if Henry VIII dies before she's conceived!
 
WolfBear said:
What's the relation with the Netherlands here?
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England played a role in the Dutch Revolt, sheltering and providing material aid to the rebels.

It won't necessarily get better if we get a Queen Bloody Mary earlier! :( And no Elizabeth I if Henry VIII dies before she's conceived!
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No, I'm imagining Catherine of Aragon leads as Queen as a first among equals deal with other leading English leadership.
 
Of course, the sure-fire way to avoid Henry VIII and his bullshit is to get rid of the Tudors altogether. Which is best achieved by way of my all-time favourite English monarch. Yes, that's right, Richard III. Have the Battle of Bosworth Field end the other way, and we're all set.
 
Skallagrim said:
Of course, the sure-fire way to avoid Henry VIII and his bullshit is to get rid of the Tudors altogether. Which is best achieved by way of my all-time favourite English monarch. Yes, that's right, Richard III. Have the Battle of Bosworth Field end the other way, and we're all set.
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Please, do go on. I've always been more focused on 19th and 20th Century history, but 16th occasionally grabs my attention for all its possibilities.
 
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