Alternate History Ideas and Discussion

[AndrewJTalon]

This is really just for simple and unique ideas for AUs that might be interesting to discuss or argue over. Primary focus on military conflicts because those tend to be more interesting but feel free to expand. And please, make it more interesting than "Nazis Win World War II" because that has literally been done to death. Fantastic AUs (introduction of alien technology, magic, etc) are allowed, but don't just focus on that.

So here are a few of mine:

1939: The Kriegsmarine manages to get almost three aircraft carriers finished and operational: Graf Zeppelin and Peter Strasser of the Graf Zeppelin-class, and a converted ocean liner Europa into a training carrier. While Zeppelin and Strasser have a small aircraft complement they are fast, and thus can be utilized for commerce raiding. They are thus available for the Kriegsmarine to utilize in attacks on British shipping, and to assist in Operation Weserübung (invasion of Norway). They can't let Germany win the war, but what are some changes to the war that could result with three carriers available?

1956: The Suez Crisis. What if Egyptian President Nasser was removed from power by the United Kingdom, France and Israel?

1982: What if the Royal Navy had the HMS Ark Royal (R09) available for the Falklands War? Their last conventional CATOBAR carrier that could operate the McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom IIs?

 

[prinCZess]

1940: In contrast of the 'Nazis win World War II' stuff...French air power is repositioned to cover the Ardennes Forest in the opening days of the German offensive and slows/stops the Germans, then De Gaulle heads a counteroffensive that breaks through into Germany itself. So the Manstein Plan results in a disaster for the Wehrmacht and Hitler's Reich.
I think the more interesting bit of such a piece would be theorizing as to the aftereffects on the international order. The speedy defeat of Nazi Germany tilts the English and French into focusing upon Japan, and they presumably are going to retain their colonial posessions. How do things play-out with Uncle Joe and the Soviets as a new German government that's sympathetic to outright-sponsored by the Anglo/French takes shape? For that matter...After another war, would the French be intent on breaking Germany entirely and completely?
Oh yeah...And then bringing up the rear where nobody cares, how does Italy get handled? Presumably he never declares war on France and is witness to Germany's defeat, so...presumably gets ignored? Does he follow Hitler's example and make some awkward alliance with the USSR to stave off foreign threat or try to go it alone as the new Roman Empire?
Seems like it'd be interesting.

 

[Navarro]

An early allied victory in WW2 is as simple as not giving them the crippling case of retarditis that led them to sit and do nothing while all of Germany's army was in Poland and the Western border was almost completely undefended.

 

[AndrewJTalon]

1939: The Kriegsmarine manages to get almost three aircraft carriers finished and operational: Graf Zeppelin and Peter Strasser of the Graf Zeppelin-class, and a converted ocean liner Europa into a training carrier. While Zeppelin and Strasser have a small aircraft complement they are fast, and thus can be utilized for commerce raiding. They are thus available for the Kriegsmarine to utilize in attacks on British shipping, and to assist in Operation Weserübung (invasion of Norway). They can't let Germany win the war, but what are some changes to the war that could result with three carriers available?

I think I'll expand a bit more on this, a piece at a time. The Zeppelin and the Strasser do most of their shakedown and testing cruises while operating with Scharnhorst and Gneisenau in the Baltic Sea. By November 1939, both carriers draw their first blood by supporting the invasion of Denmark, Strasser in particular serving as a platform for Junkers Ju 52 transport aircraft to deliver paratroopers to capture strategic points.

This tactic would be used again in the later Invasion of Norway a few months later, while the Zeppelin carried fighters and torpedo bombers and also provided some naval gunfire support for landings. The Zeppelin aided the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau in their engagement against HMS Renown-sinking the battlecruiser. The HMS Glorious, a Royal Navy aircraft carrier, was located by the Zeppelin's aircraft and subsequently sunk by the two battlecruisers: Her two destroyer escorts were also sunk, aircraft directed naval gunfire proving to be a winning combination. In the same engagement though, the Zeppelin was struck by one torpedo while Scharnhorst was hit by another launched by HMS Ardent. Both vessels were slowed, and had to be escorted back to Trondheim port. The HMS Ark Royal launched an airstrike against Trondheim, but failed to inflict any serious damage to the German vessels. More air attacks would follow as the ships withdrew to Kiel, but were repulsed by Zeppelin's fighters.

Strasser was focused entirely on launching air strikes in support of the Norwegian invasion. Some of the first calls for carrier-based air support of ground forces were made during this campaign, the naval aircraft being able to respond faster than landbased Luftwaffe aircraft having to launch from Denmark. That said, the Strasser's aircraft were soon overwhelmed with calls for air support. New aircraft had to be ferried via the Europa to replace aircraft that couldn't be repaired quickly enough or were lost due to accidents or anti aircraft fire. Europa herself was tasked to support Strasser and replaced Zeppelin.

However, due to Europa's size and being a converted liner, she rolled an enormous amount in even calm seas. Over twenty aircraft crashed while landing, with more than fifteen pilots losing their lives. This attrition rate soon pushed the Kriegsmarine to re-assign Europa back to aircraft training and ferry duties and simply increased support for Strasser.

Zeppelin would be repaired too late to aid in the rest of the Norwegian campaign-Three months later. For her sinking of the HMS Renown her captain was awarded the Iron Cross by Hitler himself.

 

[Es Arcanum]

An early allied victory in WW2 is as simple as not giving them the crippling case of retarditis that led them to sit and do nothing while all of Germany's army was in Poland and the Western border was almost completely undefended.

The French forces (let alone the British) would have had a very tough time attacking across the Franco-German frontier in 1939, the Germans had defences on their side of the border too and realistically speaking the Polish didn't need all of the luftwaffe to defeat them. The Anglo-French forces would have been at serious risk of taking heavy losses even with a great pre-ponderance in forces just in time for the victorious German forces in Poland to return to the western front and smash into them, which leads us to...

The Molotov Ribbentrop pact wasn't just about Germany not having to face Russian forces in taking over Poland it was about being able to then divert most of those same forces to the west to fight the French and British afterwards instead of having to park on the new German-Soviet frontier. Before the pact the Western Allies probably thought that they had time, the pact was announced and concluded ONE WEEK before the invasion of Poland.

Now there is another way to get around the matter of German border defences and guard divisions along the Franco-German border... violate Belgian and possibly even Dutch neutrality and attack Germany that way. Which would mean declaring war on Belgium and the Netherlands which would likely result in them joining Germany

So as I see it the phony war can be laid at the feet of Belgium's ridiculous wishful thinking desire for neutrality and the intelligence agencies of Britain and France who hadn't seen the Molotov Ribbentrop pact coming.

 

[AndrewJTalon]

A continuation of the Kriegsmarine AU: Let's say that after the initial land and naval based successes, Nazi Germany is fairly confident. The Battle of Britain though is an issue, and as a result the Kriegsmarine is mostly focusing on U-Boat warfare and finishing the Tirpitz.

This does mean they can attempt the full scale version of Exercise Rhine: Rather than just sending Bismarck and Prinz Eugen to commerce raid, they are sending Bismarck, Tirpitz, Prinz Eugen, Lutzow, Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Admiral Hipper, Graf Zeppelin and a few cruisers and destroyers out to try and lure the Royal Navy into an engagement on sea of their choosing: Preferably close enough that land based aircraft from mainland Europe can turn the tide. Peter Strasser in support.

Unfortunately this is a reflection of the Prussian military mindset that pervades Nazi Germany's government: That all military assets are ultimately an extension of the Army rather than branches in of themselves. It's also a reflection of the World War I thinking that still dominates the Kriegsmarine: The effort to draw the Royal Navy into a single decisive engagement, mainly spearheaded by battleships. Even the Graf Zeppelins are designed with a World War I mindset: Small air group, lots of naval guns on a carrier.

They would try this exercise, of course, in the North Sea near Jutland. But the Royal Navy has wised up to this and wouldn't take the bait. They would instead keep the Germans contained, as there isn't anything strategically vital that would force the Royal Navy to get in close enough for land-based German aircraft to hit them. Maybe one or two capital ships might be hit this way, but not enough to change the blockade. You thus get lots of smaller engagements in the North Sea, around Norway, and maybe even in the English Channel, where one German capital ship loss is significantly worse for them than one capital ship loss for the British.

That said, with more ships available, the Kriegsmarine could attempt somewhat more ambitious raiding and strike plans: Especially when the Americans enter the war properly in 1942.

The scenario: Without warning, the Germans launch the mother of all air raids on the British from land-based bombers and attack aircraft. It is the biggest commission of air power seen to date.


And when the smoke clears, the German carriers have left their harbor in Norway. As have the battleships and cruisers.

The Royal Navy scrambles to track the ships, they find Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, they find Tirpitz, they find Prinz Eugen. But the carriers?

They're gone.

Taking inspiration from the Doolittle Raid, the Graf Zeppelin and the Peter Strasser with a few support vessels seeks the Hail Mary of Hail Maries: To strike at Washington DC directly. The limited number of aircraft with small amount of ordnance does little damage, but the point is to send a clear message to the Americans: "We can strike you."

And the sad thing is, thanks to Chief of Naval Staff, Admiral Ernest King's hatred of the English to the point he ignored their intelligence reports and warnings for years, the Germans just might be able to pull this off. And if they impressed the Spanish fascist dictator enough with the audacity, they might have been able to find sanctuary in the Azores thanks to Hitler's diplomacy.

An interesting scenario. What are some others with this little AU?

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Wait, this is the area we’re supposed to post Ideas, Fanfic Recommendations and Discussions? I’ll have to move my two over here later

Anyway, does this AlternateHistory thread accept ideas involving Alien Space Bat-esque interference like the 1970s UK being transported to the 1600s or a the Earth Custodianship from Stellaris finding itself on Old Earth and deciding to conquer it for its peoples own good and regular humans’ reactions to the invasion and subsequent change in life

 

[AndrewJTalon]

Wait, this is the area we’re supposed to post Ideas, Fanfic Recommendations and Discussions? I’ll have to move my two over here later

Anyway, does this AlternateHistory thread accept ideas involving Alien Space Bat-esque interference like the 1970s UK being transported to the 1600s or a the Earth Custodianship from Stellaris finding itself on Old Earth and deciding to conquer it for its peoples own good and regular humans’ reactions to the invasion and subsequent change in life

Well because it doesn't involve actual story writing, I just posted it here for discussion. Though you can write Alternate History stuff based off stuff developed here. And yes, Alien Space Bats stuff is definitely in. I just started with more sensible AUs to prevent things from getting too out of hand too fast.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Well because it doesn't involve actual story writing, I just posted it here for discussion. Though you can write Alternate History stuff based off stuff developed here. And yes, Alien Space Bats stuff is definitely in. I just started with more sensible AUs to prevent things from getting too out of hand too fast.

Okay thanks. Say would it be okay to involve an ASB that uses Monster Girl Encyclopedia but kept SFW? Because I sorta wonder how humanity would be affected if Mamono suddenly appeared and were here to stay in say, the Viking Age

 

[AndrewJTalon]

Okay thanks. Say would it be okay to involve an ASB that uses Monster Girl Encyclopedia but kept SFW? Because I sorta wonder how humanity would be affected if Mamono suddenly appeared and were here to stay in say, the Viking Age

Yes, just keep it SFW.

 

[LordSunhawk]

Here's an interesting one to ponder...

It's the 1650's, the historical court case in Virginia comes up that, in our timeline, resulted in the legalization of chattel slavery in the Virginia colony (a case, ironically, brought by a black landowner demanding the right to hold a black worker as a permanent slave). In the alternate timeline, the decision goes the other way and it remains banned with indenture contracts being the only way to bring in 'cheap' labor.

On the one hand, no slavery, YAY. On the other, due to the provisions in indenture contracts, especially those offered to black workers at the time (who were seen as massively more valuable than white workers) the native tribes are about to have a worse time of it (the 10 acres, cabin, musket, tools and seed have to come from somewhere... and the great landowners aren't going to subdivide THEIR land)

Of course there may be alterations, since in general the indenture contracts were setup to cover the costs of importing the worker and after a fixed term of service provide them with a start to 'free' life as citizens of the colony. Perhaps the contracts revert to being salary based, with the costs for transport being deducted from the first five or ten years of the contract then the worker staying on and being paid (easier to handle that than having to go survey and clear 10 more acres... and you get to keep the skilled labor to boot).

 

[MrBirthday]

One admittedly ASB-tier thought I've had is a setup where Imperial Japan pursues the same plans for conquest as in OTL, but unlike OTL, operates in full accordance with the laws of war. Or as close to it as possible, anyway. Just a random thoght I've had.

On another note, I've long since gotten bored with Confederate victory timelines. Nowadays, I wonder what is earliest date the war could have plausibility ended in Union victory.

 

[Big Steve]

Here's an interesting one to ponder...

It's the 1650's, the historical court case in Virginia comes up that, in our timeline, resulted in the legalization of chattel slavery in the Virginia colony (a case, ironically, brought by a black landowner demanding the right to hold a black worker as a permanent slave). In the alternate timeline, the decision goes the other way and it remains banned with indenture contracts being the only way to bring in 'cheap' labor.

On the one hand, no slavery, YAY. On the other, due to the provisions in indenture contracts, especially those offered to black workers at the time (who were seen as massively more valuable than white workers) the native tribes are about to have a worse time of it (the 10 acres, cabin, musket, tools and seed have to come from somewhere... and the great landowners aren't going to subdivide THEIR land)

Of course there may be alterations, since in general the indenture contracts were setup to cover the costs of importing the worker and after a fixed term of service provide them with a start to 'free' life as citizens of the colony. Perhaps the contracts revert to being salary based, with the costs for transport being deducted from the first five or ten years of the contract then the worker staying on and being paid (easier to handle that than having to go survey and clear 10 more acres... and you get to keep the skilled labor to boot).

That is an interesting thing to consider. Of course, it may only result in Virginia simply not being a slave state, there's no guarantee Maryland won't allow slavery, and it's damn certain that the West Indies planters who founded South Carolina will allow slavery since they already had it.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

This is due to me reading Vinland Saga

What If? The Vikings went and made settlements in America that survived and even conquered and assimilated Native American Tribes before, maybe splitting into different nations in Northern America?

How would the rest of Europe change in the long-run? Because I'm pretty sure they may give/teach some of those they assimilated or fought how to do Iron Tools and other Medieval-esque technologies

I'm not so knowledgeable about actual histories, but I think I heard a Black Plague-Equivalent occurred in North America, so maybe they get wiped out anyway

 

[AndrewJTalon]

This is due to me reading Vinland Saga

What If? The Vikings went and made settlements in America that survived and even conquered and assimilated Native American Tribes before, maybe splitting into different nations in Northern America?

How would the rest of Europe change in the long-run? Because I'm pretty sure they may give/teach some of those they assimilated or fought how to do Iron Tools and other Medieval-esque technologies

I'm not so knowledgeable about actual histories, but I think I heard a Black Plague-Equivalent occurred in North America, so maybe they get wiped out anyway

There are two main issues with the American civilizations and why they were at the tech level when the Europeans came:

One is a lack of domesticated large animals to aid in agriculture, warfare, and logistics. None of the Native North or South American civilizations had horses, bulls, goats, or anything else to make it easier to get heavy loads around, to move large objects around, to plow fields and many other things. The vast majority of large North American mammals like deer, bison, elk, etc, go into breeding shock and become sterile if you try to keep them from their migration routes. It took tens of thousands of years to domesticate the animals in the Old World-Time the Americans didn't have because they only reached the continents about 17 to 20 thousand years ago. That means that everything had to rely, mostly, on people power. And we are extremely energy inefficient and weak lifeforms next to horses, bulls and so forth. Without that extra (quite literal) horsepower, it is difficult to advance beyond the Bronze age because you just can't support enough people, therefore your population numbers stay rather low.

Two is the fact that from the 11th to 13th centuries, massive droughts (megadroughts really) hit the Southwestern United States which made the Anasazi and other advanced civilizations at the time collapse, most of them back into hunter gathering and subsistence farming. It seems this climate shift and possible volcanic eruptions in Central America led to many advanced civilizations, such as the Mound Builders in the Mississippian cultures and the Mayans, to be unable to maintain the agriculture they had and thus collapsed as well. When Europeans arrived in the Americas, many of the native societies were functionally post-apocalyptic civilizations, still recovering from climate shifts (which may or may not have been connected to larger climate issues that are related to the Little Ice Age-It's difficult to determine).

Change those things and... Well, see what happens in that AU.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

@AndrewJTalon
Thanks for the info, never realised that there were environmental factors keeping them from eventually reaching greater heights for so many years

I guess the Europeans mainly survived because they brought their own animals and already relatively advanced technologies there

 

[bullethead]

Here's a more low key AH idea, based on this thread I made on SB:

People/Groups that most negatively affected program development/acquisition

There have been a lot of weapons/military programs that were poorly thought out or badly executed. One of the most egregious examples is the M14 rifle, which the US Army Ordinance Board spent years developing, but was inferior to not only the previous standard issue rifle (the M1 Garand), but an...

forums.spacebattles.com

The late 1960s: The CONFORM project, aimed at developing a new, more advanced class of American attack submarines, has been stopped by Admiral Hyman Rickover. However, the Secretary of Defense at the time (Robert McNamara or Clark Clifford) overrules Rickover's orders to destroy all the documentation related to the project, including the reactor, on the grounds that it would delay developing a response to Soviet submarines with greater capabilities. The documents languish in obscurity for over two decades.

Early 1991: The officers tasked with the Centurion project, aimed at developing a cheaper alternative to the Seawolf class, rediscover the CONFORM project documentation. While many of the specific components and construction techniques are decades out of date, the fundamentals of the design are compelling, as is the potential performance to cost ratio. However, some in the Navy and Congress feel a more conventional design may be better, leading to fierce debates over the future of the submarine fleet...

 

[AndrewJTalon]

@AndrewJTalon
Thanks for the info, never realised that there were environmental factors keeping them from eventually reaching greater heights for so many years

I guess the Europeans mainly survived because they brought their own animals and already relatively advanced technologies there

That and they made alliances with various native tribes. That is how Cortez conquered the Aztecs-His hundred men were just not enough to overthrow a massive civilization, but allying with the many, MANY local tribes who hated the Aztecs and acting as force multipliers let them take them over.

As it turns out, the various tribes and societies all had their own agendas and some were amenable to the Europeans, others hated them, some were indifferent, a fair number integrated into it-It was complicated.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

That and they made alliances with various native tribes. That is how Cortez conquered the Aztecs-His hundred men were just not enough to overthrow a massive civilization, but allying with the many, MANY local tribes who hated the Aztecs and acting as force multipliers let them take them over.

As it turns out, the various tribes and societies all had their own agendas and some were amenable to the Europeans, others hated them, some were indifferent, a fair number integrated into it-It was complicated.

I thought it was due to Cortez and his 100 bringing their own diseases by contact

Kinda goes against the whole sort of stuff propogated by the Left-Right Dichotomy & Underdog or Oppression Olympics type of stuff

Never knew until at least two or three years ago that the Native American tribes had slaves, even bought black people like Don Cheadle’s ancestors and went to war with one another whilst being allied to various European powers

Question, were those accidental plagues caused by contact with European clothes on purpose or not? Hollywood kinda makes it out to be on purpose last I watched. But I doubt they knew germ theory or whatever so well and had contact with Native Americans before that didn’t result in the latter dying of a disease they weren’t innoculated to

 

[bullethead]

Question, were those accidental plagues caused by contact with European clothes on purpose or not? Hollywood kinda makes it out to be on purpose last I watched. But I doubt they knew germ theory or whatever so well and had contact with Native Americans before that didn’t result in the latter dying of a disease they weren’t innoculated to

I think some of them may have been done intentionally, by guys who noticed that the Native Americans got sick whenever they got in contact with European clothes, but I wouldn't be surprised if most of them didn't know.