Bassoe
Well-known member
/tg/ did it first. Only their version did bring diseases and didn't collapse. As one poster put it, "World War 1 comes early in this timeline".
Alternate History Ideas and Discussion
- Thread starter AndrewJTalon
- Start date
TheRomanSlayer
Unipolarists are the New Untermenschen
Touching base on the big chunk of my failed reboot attempts at making a timeline on a Russia that is more focused on the Pacific region, would the lack of access to the Baltic actually be a prime motivator for the early Russian Tsardom to develop its manufacturing ability, or does Russia need an access to the Baltic for the demand for Russian manufactured goods? I'm just wondering as to what kind of scenario would be necessary for Russia to develop a kind of proto-industrialized society on an earlier scale, plus if it can avoid the whole serfdom scenario as well.
Another good scenario would involve the struggle between the Possessors and Non-Possessors. The Non-Possessors, centered around Maximus the Greek, had opposed ecclesiastical ownership of land on the grounds that wealth had actually corrupted the Russian clergy, plus some other criticisms that he levied against them as well. Moreover, he was also influenced by a fiery Dominican preacher called Girolamo Savonarola, whose ideas and criticism of clerical corruption was valid. If the non-Possessors had won, the effects on Eastern Orthodoxy would have been devastating, as it would face a split between the same kind of Non-Possessors and Possessors, not just in the Muscovite state, but in the Orthodox areas of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, and the Orthodox areas of the Ottoman Empire.
Another good scenario would involve the struggle between the Possessors and Non-Possessors. The Non-Possessors, centered around Maximus the Greek, had opposed ecclesiastical ownership of land on the grounds that wealth had actually corrupted the Russian clergy, plus some other criticisms that he levied against them as well. Moreover, he was also influenced by a fiery Dominican preacher called Girolamo Savonarola, whose ideas and criticism of clerical corruption was valid. If the non-Possessors had won, the effects on Eastern Orthodoxy would have been devastating, as it would face a split between the same kind of Non-Possessors and Possessors, not just in the Muscovite state, but in the Orthodox areas of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, and the Orthodox areas of the Ottoman Empire.
PsihoKekec
Swashbuckling Vatnik
I don't see a lack of access to Baltic being enough for tsardom to start taking manufacturing seriously, there would have to be an additional POD to kickstart the development.
raharris1973
Well-known member
Are participants in this forum generally familiar with the abbreviated terms AHC, DBWI, ISOT, and SI, and the concepts behind them, and are posts threads of that sort appropriate for the forum or on the other hand against the rules?
Personally, I know what ISOT and SI are, but I'm not familiar with AHC and DBWI.
If you want to make a thread with pertinent definitions, the staff wouldn't mind stickying it.
Zyobot
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
I know what all of those mean, but I’m not sure about everyone else. But, if we ever discuss AH scenarios sometime down the road, I’ll know what you’re referring to.
raharris1973
Well-known member
IMO 99% of the people here know those acronyms and are cool to read that e.g. "this POD kills my SOD"
Although I don't read DBWI I know what the acronym stands for and that it (usually) is not NSFW
Well personally you lost me with "SOD". I'm SOL regarding the definition of that or what it stands for. For 'DBWI' it's important for people to either play along, respond "in character" or bracket there comments that stand outside the initial premise, that are "OOC" ('out of character', or 'out of continuity')
TheRomanSlayer
Unipolarists are the New Untermenschen
True, although I'm not sure if a longer lasting Hanseatic League would have been ideal in this case. Perhaps a Kalmar Union that remained united that have aligned with the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth against the ascending Muscovite State and the Holy Roman Empire would have successfully blocked Russian attempts at expanding into the Baltic Sea.
PLC which do not get series of disasters after 1648 and had stable money for army would be enough.Muscovites always relied on numbers,and as long as polish would have elite army we would beat them.
DBWI is "double blind what if". Basically where a thread is written/discussed from the idea that something happened that didn't OTL and what might have happened if it hadn't. For instance say being written from a TL where Lee scored a crushing victory at Gettysburg leading to the capture of Washington and peace being made with the south gaining independence. Then the opening post would ask "What if Lee didn't win such a victory at Gettysburg?" and people would try and reply in character from such a TL. Or say writing from a TL where Hannibel defeated Rome in the 2nd Punic War and people are discussing what happened if Rome wasn't crippled. Hopefully that explains things?
Can't remember meeting AHC myself although guessing the 1st parts are alternative history but could be a number of options for the C.
raharris1973
Well-known member
AHC is simply an abbreviation for "Alternate History Challenge"- You explain the desired result/outcome, rather than provide the detailed point of departure, and invite fellow discussants to suggest plausible ways to alter history beforehand to achieve that outcome.
ISOT is "island in the sea of time" - basically you grab a random landmass and send to a point back in time, with all its people and an infrastructure, and let the scenario play itself out. Since it is supernatural, it is an ASB, or otherwise magical event.
SI is a "self-insert", which is you, or the author are in the place of a historical person. It assumes you play the part historically, and aren't seen as a jibbering insane idiot, immediately carted off to the mad-house. It gained more traction than an earlier term, YWUA (You Wake Up As) person x, y, or z.
Another supernatural variant involves saying a landmass, like, to pick a favorite - Britain, gets transported not in time, but across the planet to the Pacific or the southern hemisphere in the same historical era. Sometimes this is mis-named an "ISOT" because it takes the city, country, whatever out of its immediate environment. A couple times I other people used the term, "ISOP" - 'Island in the Sea of Place' because it is space, not time that the land moves through, but that never caught on. An an even more common way to signal what is happening in a thread title is to say that land X 'teleports' somewhere.
However, that is also an ASB, supernatural, magical event, and depending on a forum's rules and culture, it may not be allowed, appropriate or may be frowned upon for violating the laws of physics or not meeting an alternate history purity or plausibility standard.
ISOT is "island in the sea of time" - basically you grab a random landmass and send to a point back in time, with all its people and an infrastructure, and let the scenario play itself out. Since it is supernatural, it is an ASB, or otherwise magical event.
SI is a "self-insert", which is you, or the author are in the place of a historical person. It assumes you play the part historically, and aren't seen as a jibbering insane idiot, immediately carted off to the mad-house. It gained more traction than an earlier term, YWUA (You Wake Up As) person x, y, or z.
Another supernatural variant involves saying a landmass, like, to pick a favorite - Britain, gets transported not in time, but across the planet to the Pacific or the southern hemisphere in the same historical era. Sometimes this is mis-named an "ISOT" because it takes the city, country, whatever out of its immediate environment. A couple times I other people used the term, "ISOP" - 'Island in the Sea of Place' because it is space, not time that the land moves through, but that never caught on. An an even more common way to signal what is happening in a thread title is to say that land X 'teleports' somewhere.
However, that is also an ASB, supernatural, magical event, and depending on a forum's rules and culture, it may not be allowed, appropriate or may be frowned upon for violating the laws of physics or not meeting an alternate history purity or plausibility standard.
Alt History Acronyms
Buba
A total creep
ASB - Alien Space Bat - the cause of ISOTs, PODs and SIs
ROB - Random Omnipotent Being - the cause of ISOTs, PODs and SIs
The two can be one and the same.
OTT - Over The Top, meaning OP i.e. Over Powered, but see below
OP - Over Powered OR Original Poster, i.e. the person who made the first post with premises of the WI
OTL - Our Time Line i.e. "canon", "historically", usually contrasted with
ITTL - In This TimeLine i.e. in this AH/alt-hist
Wank - making the object of the POD/ASB intervention stronger, e.g. a Canada wank makes Canada stronk, extending from frozen sea to shiny sea, i.e. from Hudson Bay to Gulf of Mexico.
ROB - Random Omnipotent Being - the cause of ISOTs, PODs and SIs
The two can be one and the same.
OTT - Over The Top, meaning OP i.e. Over Powered, but see below
OP - Over Powered OR Original Poster, i.e. the person who made the first post with premises of the WI
OTL - Our Time Line i.e. "canon", "historically", usually contrasted with
ITTL - In This TimeLine i.e. in this AH/alt-hist
Wank - making the object of the POD/ASB intervention stronger, e.g. a Canada wank makes Canada stronk, extending from frozen sea to shiny sea, i.e. from Hudson Bay to Gulf of Mexico.
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Depends on who writes that scenario. If it's a leftard, it will be about the Glorious March of Socialism and Equality across the World, teaching the savages of the past about the goodness that is Diversity, Sharing, and the Genocide of White People. If it's a right winger who writes the story, it will be a sorrowful piece about the world of '59 looking at the degenerates of the EU and deciding that nope, this is not what they want and refuse any diplomatic overtunes. The african populations quickly dump all their malcontents in the EU while laughing at these moronic bleeding hearts for taking in the detritus of their nations. Nations like the USA, UK, and Russia point at the EU and tell their people what equality leads to: Rampant degeneracy and moral collapse. The leadership of the EU, enraged by the sound rejection of their ideology, decide to try and conquer the world to make them obey, only to eat several nukes to their face. Social rights are set back by centuries as both minorities and the LGBT faction desperately try to wash out the stains caused by the reveal of what their future of free love and socialism would look like.
The Left loses. Forever.
Zyobot
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Uh…
I doubt it’s nearly as black and white as your portray it as. While social revolutions have empowered movements that are indeed problematic, the 1950s were also a backwards period in many ways (i.e. no civil-rights legislation in the US yet). That, and historical maltreatment of certain racial and sexual-orientation groups may go some way to explaining—if not excusing—current progressive excesses today, when they’re finally able to live unmolested in at least liberal-democratic, Western societies (which wise and pragmatic downtimers should come to understand).
Honestly, if I were writing this, it’d probably have more of a “both sides have a point” theme to it. Per the above, uptimers and downtimers alike would ineluctably be critical of the other’s social mores, and rightly so. Obviously, not every instance of this would be resolved peacefully, which would be a central conflict of any decent execution of TTL.
Bassoe
Well-known member
Buba
A total creep
Nukes fall, everybody dies.
The whole Warsaw Pact and the Baltic Republics have been overwritten - I cannot envision any other Soviet reaction.
If by some ASB fiat the effect is NOT nuclear winter, then we have the usual economic collapse.
Besides loss of overseas assets, all records stored in clouds where the servers are in India or USA, no gas piplines to Russia and Norway, paycards not working (VISA and Mastercard are US based) the Euro and remaining Eu currencies are worthless as they are outside the Bretton Woods system.
@winnut - ia prachital piervij paragraf i ustal. Napishi pa angliyskie ili idzi v pizdiets. Pazdravlayu
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