Religion Christian Society Grooming (or Lack Thereof)

I actually have to disagree a Christians primary loyalty has to be to God and what he considers Just. Now we don’t have to go and try to impose the Bible on others, but if there is a conflict between Americas constitution and for example our faith. We should go for our faith, after all a Christian shouldn’t support abortion or human sacrifice or other practices like that even if the constitution says it’s right. In that case fuck the constitution. Now of course we as Christians should obey the legal authorities if they make a law we must obey it. However if Christians become the legal authorities then they can change those evil laws and should not worship them, and treat them as moral.

You misunderstood what I'm saying. I mean that nation ITSELF can't be based on the Bible. That's got nothing to do with individual Christians.

Christians are essentially refugees living on a green card until the death ferry or Jesus himself comes to collect them. They aren't sovereign citizens in the spiritual sense. Heck the reason why I'm half as uppity as I am regarding US politics is the fact that our own politicians are breaking the rule of law that Christians are supposed to follow up to the point in contradicts God's law.

I don't think a Christian can be a politician.
 
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Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
The Catholics that the FBI is scared of are the "hardline" ones, meaning the ones that are actually paying attention and don't trust Francis shit. Along with people who have issues with Vatican II and such, like ones that prefere Latin mass.

I'm imagining an FBI guy cowering in a basement, shivering in terror at the thought of those oldschool trad Roman Catholics with their Latin Mass, and those oldschool independent Baptists with their KJV Bibles.
So scaaaaary!

A Catholic not trusting the pope that’s pretty ironic shouldn’t they become Orthodox or Protestant then since the Pope is supposed to be infallible?

The conclusion they tend to move towards is Sedevacantism: that the current Pope is not a genuine one. Which as far as I can tell would mean that whatever sort of Divine blessing a "real" Pope is suppose to have, the current incumbent doesn't.
They aren't quite willing to go all the way to the conclusion that the whole concept of someone being elected "Pope" meaning that they become incapable of error being flawed at its foundation.

I actually have to disagree a Christians primary loyalty has to be to God and what he considers Just. Now we don’t have to go and try to impose the Bible on others, but if there is a conflict between Americas constitution and for example our faith. We should go for our faith, after all a Christian shouldn’t support abortion or human sacrifice or other practices like that even if the constitution says it’s right. In that case fuck the constitution. Now of course we as Christians should obey the legal authorities if they make a law we must obey it. However if Christians become the legal authorities then they can change those evil laws and should not worship them, and treat them as moral.

The American Constitution actually says nothing whatsoever about abortion. It's simply not in there. Which is why the people who think "The Constitution" means the actual words of that document tend to think abortion something the individual state governments should be the ones making laws about, not the Federal government.

But you need to understand: to the American Left, having a "Constitutional right" to something has zero to do with anything that's actually in there. It's simply an expression of emotion.


It's rather more complicated than that.

Pope Francis, for all of his flaws, is not the 'raging liberal' many in the media portray him as. He has refrained from speaking ex cathedra, and has confirmed a number of very 'traditionalist' friendly practices. The main issue is that the German church has this nasty habit of making grand pronouncements about 'Church Policy' celebrating homosexuality, female priests, wokeness, etc in press statements, which the media runs with, with the first the Vatican finds out about it all being said press statements about policies they'd supposedly approved, leading to Francis *constantly* having to disavow the German church's actions. At this time, the German church is very much in schism on just about every issue imaginable, the Curia has just been unwilling to aggressively challenge them (Jesuit influence, the Jesuit order is equally corrupt).

Liberals claiming to speak for other people, without giving a hoot whether those other people actually agree with what they are saying?
Say it ain't so...

You misunderstood what I'm saying. I mean that nation ITSELF can't be based on the Bible. That's got nothing to do with individual Christians.

Christians are essentially refugees living on a green card until the death ferry or Jesus himself comes to collect them. They aren't sovereign citizens in the spiritual sense. Heck the reason why I'm half as uppity as I am regarding US politics is the fact that our own politicians are breaking the rule of law that Christians are supposed to follow up to the point in contradicts God's law.

I don't think a Christian can be a politician.

I would rather the government be made up of people who believed in God and expected to have to answer to Him for their policies, than made up of people who didn't.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
It's rather more complicated than that.

Pope Francis, for all of his flaws, is not the 'raging liberal' many in the media portray him as. He has refrained from speaking ex cathedra, and has confirmed a number of very 'traditionalist' friendly practices. The main issue is that the German church has this nasty habit of making grand pronouncements about 'Church Policy' celebrating homosexuality, female priests, wokeness, etc in press statements, which the media runs with, with the first the Vatican finds out about it all being said press statements about policies they'd supposedly approved, leading to Francis *constantly* having to disavow the German church's actions. At this time, the German church is very much in schism on just about every issue imaginable, the Curia has just been unwilling to aggressively challenge them (Jesuit influence, the Jesuit order is equally corrupt).
No, he is definitely a Marxist on social issues, even if he may be traditional on religious issues:
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
I have a simple question for you.

If the US Constitution and Bible disagree on a topic, which should SCOTUS use to determine if a law or action is legal?
That's the fun thing, having been composed from a Biblical worldview, the two don't conflict.

Part of the genius of America is denying the concept that the church and state should operate hand-in-glove. While modern atheists have taken the term 'separation of church and state,' which does not actually appear in the constitution, as an excuse to try to force everyone except for themselves out of political power, the actual meaning of the establishment clause of the First Amendment is that nobody is allowed to use the state as a means of enforcing religion.

Healthy Christianity recognizes that the purpose of the state is not a tool for proselytization or cultural control. Its proper place is simply in 'keeping the peace.'

Public debate and discourse is the proper place for theological discussion, not a government official dictating to private citizens. Unfortunately, a lot of modern secularists and leftists have decided to use it for just that, as demonstrated by how they treat children in schools.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
That's the fun thing, having been composed from a Biblical worldview, the two don't conflict.

Part of the genius of America is denying the concept that the church and state should operate hand-in-glove. While modern atheists have taken the term 'separation of church and state,' which does not actually appear in the constitution, as an excuse to try to force everyone except for themselves out of political power, the actual meaning of the establishment clause of the First Amendment is that nobody is allowed to use the state as a means of enforcing religion.

Healthy Christianity recognizes that the purpose of the state is not a tool for proselytization or cultural control. Its proper place is simply in 'keeping the peace.'

Public debate and discourse is the proper place for theological discussion, not a government official dictating to private citizens. Unfortunately, a lot of modern secularists and leftists have decided to use it for just that, as demonstrated by how they treat children in schools.
The only reason 'atheists' have attempt to push openly, preachy religious folks out of politics is because those same preachy types used to do everything they could to keep the 'wrong' religions/sects out of power and treated non-religious folks like crap a lot of the time.

And things like bombing abortion clinics back in the day didn't help either, no matter how 'morally' justified in the views of some groups.

Need I remind you how many people didn't like JFK because he was Catholic, and of what all happened with the Mormons, beginning with their founding and exile?

Religion is not a benign force, even Christianity, and non-religious folk trying to gain enough secular power to not be under the boot of religious dogma again is hardly that surprising.
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
The only reason 'atheists' have attempt to push openly, preachy religious folks out of politics is because those same preachy types used to do everything they could to keep the 'wrong' religions/sects out of power and treated non-religious folks like crap a lot of the time.
This is not true, they are openly hateful. I've heard of films being told by distributors that they need to take all mentions of Christ out of their film if they want to get published.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
This is not true, they are openly hateful. I've heard of films being told by distributors that they need to take all mentions of Christ out of their film if they want to get published.
Have you considered they learned that hate from people who were abused or mistreated by religious folks/institutions?

The backlash against openly religious folks in gov is happening as backlash against how the situation used to be inversed.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
what all happened with the Mormons, beginning with their founding and exile?
To be fair, if you actually look up the what happened the Mormons deserved a lot of the crap they got in the early days. I mean, they were a cult founded by a failed author of Jesus fan fiction with delusions of grandeur and an inclination towards violence, after all. They're basically a more successful and benign version of Scientology.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
To be fair, if you actually look up the what happened the Mormons deserved a lot of the crap they got in the early days. I mean, they were a cult founded by a failed author of Jesus fan fiction with delusions of grandeur and an inclination towards violence, after all. They're basically a more successful and benign version of Scientology.
I mean you're not wrong, but what happened with the Mormons is an example of the sectarian splits and conflicts between different religions that were very much an issue the Founders were worried about when the drafted the Constitution.

No, because that is not the case. This isn't coming from people that were abused. This is coming from rich and powerful leftists.
You don't seem to get that those rich and powerful leftists have supporters in their push against religion partly because of people who have had bad expereinces with organized religion are a larger and larger part of the population.

Most people in the US do not view 'secular' as a bad word in government, and many do not view 'openly religious' in government as a pro.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
You don't seem to get that those rich and powerful leftists have supporters in their push against religion partly because of people who have had bad expereinces with organized religion are a larger and larger part of the population.

Most people in the US do not view 'secular' as a bad word in government, and many do not view 'openly religious' in government as a pro.
And yet they don't see the irony in letting the regressive left fill the hole left behind by pushing out Christianity with their own, far more abusive and ultimately self-destructive, religion.
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
You don't seem to get that those rich and powerful leftists have supporters in their push against religion partly because of people who have had bad expereinces with organized religion are a larger and larger part of the population.
The larger and larger part of the population that is made of pedophiles and other sexual deviants? They deserved it.
Or the larger and larger part of the population who have murdered a child for their own convenience? They deserved it.
Maybe you are talking about the larger and large part of the population who chant "Trust the science" after repeating what scientifically illiterate pundits have told them about? Yeah, they have totally legitimate gripes with the Christian value of truth.

Honestly, I think Christians have not been violent and oppressive enough during the last few decades.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
And yet they don't see the irony in letting the regressive left fill the hole left behind by pushing out Christianity with their own, far more abusive and ultimately self-destructive, religion.
That's because many of them don't look outside their bubbles, and more than a few have found very comfy homes/jobs in groups that will allow them to go after organized religion.

Very few leftists think of their ideology as a religion, and frankly calling it such may be a nice rhetorical jab here, but it doesn't really work with what is actually going on.

Saying that Leftism is a religion is laying religious thinking onto what are often secular reasoning's.
The larger and larger part of the population that is made of pedophiles and other sexual deviants? They deserved it.
Or the larger and larger part of the population who have murdered a child for their own convenience? They deserved it.
Maybe you are talking about the larger and large part of the population who chant "Trust the science" after repeating what scientifically illiterate pundits have told them about? Yeah, they have totally legitimate gripes with the Christian value of truth.

Honestly, I think Christians have not been violent and oppressive enough during the last few decades.
...yeah, got nothing to say to this, other than thanks for showing why the legacy of abortion clinic bombings still haunts the Right.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
That's the fun thing, having been composed from a Biblical worldview, the two don't conflict.

Part of the genius of America is denying the concept that the church and state should operate hand-in-glove. While modern atheists have taken the term 'separation of church and state,' which does not actually appear in the constitution, as an excuse to try to force everyone except for themselves out of political power, the actual meaning of the establishment clause of the First Amendment is that nobody is allowed to use the state as a means of enforcing religion.

Healthy Christianity recognizes that the purpose of the state is not a tool for proselytization or cultural control. Its proper place is simply in 'keeping the peace.'

Public debate and discourse is the proper place for theological discussion, not a government official dictating to private citizens. Unfortunately, a lot of modern secularists and leftists have decided to use it for just that, as demonstrated by how they treat children in schools.
Hell, the entire concept of separation of church and state is Christian in origin...
That's because many of them don't look outside their bubbles, and more than a few have found very comfy homes/jobs in groups that will allow them to go after organized religion.

Very few leftists think of their ideology as a religion, and frankly calling it such may be a nice rhetorical jab here, but it doesn't really work with what is actually going on.

Saying that Leftism is a religion is laying religious thinking onto what are often secular reasoning's.
Marxism (and leftism in general) is not a religion, it is a cult. I mean, just look at this:
and how many checkboxes leftists and leftist movement check out.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
Hell, the entire concept of separation of church and state is Christian in origin...

Marxism (and leftism in general) is not a religion, it is a cult. I mean, just look at this:
and how many checkboxes leftists and leftist movement check out.

the end of modernity in the roman period was a time of cults too as was its end in the chinese period as well.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
The only reason 'atheists' have attempt to push openly, preachy religious folks out of politics is because those same preachy types used to do everything they could to keep the 'wrong' religions/sects out of power and treated non-religious folks like crap a lot of the time.

And things like bombing abortion clinics back in the day didn't help either, no matter how 'morally' justified in the views of some groups.

Need I remind you how many people didn't like JFK because he was Catholic, and of what all happened with the Mormons, beginning with their founding and exile?

Religion is not a benign force, even Christianity, and non-religious folk trying to gain enough secular power to not be under the boot of religious dogma again is hardly that surprising.

See, the problem is that you've bought into the propaganda, and are blind to the fact that the atheists are just another religious group, and their gospel is much, much more destructive than Christianity.

It's where we get marxism, post-modernism, critical race theory, 'gender queerness', etc, etc.

When Christians controlled the dominant cultural space, the main argument was when is it and is it not appropriate to be merciful to people who committed actual criminal offenses, and whether some things should be taken off the list of criminal offenses.

Now that atheists with explicitly political religion control the dominant cultural space, the open movement is to destroy your entire life if you refuse to actively affirm their sexual degeneracy and totalitarianism.


I wonder if you'll ever escape enough of the leftist propaganda you spent so much of your life immersed in, that you'll be able to realize how much better it was when Christianity was the moral orthodoxy of the culture.
 
See, the problem is that you've bought into the propaganda, and are blind to the fact that the atheists are just another religious group, and their gospel is much, much more destructive than Christianity.

It's where we get marxism, post-modernism, critical race theory, 'gender queerness', etc, etc.

When Christians controlled the dominant cultural space, the main argument was when is it and is it not appropriate to be merciful to people who committed actual criminal offenses, and whether some things should be taken off the list of criminal offenses.

Now that atheists with explicitly political religion control the dominant cultural space, the open movement is to destroy your entire life if you refuse to actively affirm their sexual degeneracy and totalitarianism.


I wonder if you'll ever escape enough of the leftist propaganda you spent so much of your life immersed in, that you'll be able to realize how much better it was when Christianity was the moral orthodoxy of the culture.

My concern at this point is how much have Christians brought into the propaganda to the point they will become the very characters that the left says they are. After all, decrying everything that the elders (in this case the government) seemed to work for the left. Fight fire with fire and all that. In short, I'm afraid that we have an entire generation that's corrupted.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
My concern at this point is how much have Christians brought into the propaganda to the point they will become the very characters that the left says they are. After all, decrying everything that the elders (in this case the government) seemed to work for the left. Fight fire with fire and all that. In short, I'm afraid that we have an entire generation that's corrupted.

Some will, some won't. While some cult leaders who try to pose as good leaders will work to lead people astray, the mainstay of Christian and conservative thought is not collectivist.

It makes it harder to have a unified political movement, but also makes it functionally immune to complete subversion, only bits and pieces at any given time can be subverted.
 

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