Hamas Launches Offensive Against Southern Israel

evilchumlee said:
Criticizing Israel does not make one antisemitic, and it's a lazy argument to throw that out.

I don't hold Israel to a higher standard than anyone else. Civilian causalities are always wrong and need to be avoided at all costs. When other nations do it, they're wrong too.

If your enemy uses human shields and hides among civilians? That sucks... it also doesn't give you authority to just kill civilians. That's when you pull out the scapel, not the jackhammer.

It has nothing to do with Israel or Jewish people at all, it's just the current high profile example.

I 1000% support Israel and don't think the world is doing enough to help them. The US should have had boots on the ground two weeks ago, going door-to-door throughout Gaza. There should be a massive, international buildup along Israel's borders to help with attacks from outside.

Just... enough with the bombing of civilians.
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Giving you the benefit of the doubt in being honest here, that still makes you ignorant.

Going door-to-door with an infantry invasion of Gaza will not avoid civilian casualties. If anything, looking at what happened in Mosul, it's likely to be even worse.

Further, all laws and doctrines of war do not try to avoid civilian casualties 'at all costs.' If you try to do so 'at all costs,' then you not only validate, but also empower the human-shields tactics of groups like Hamas, because you grant them immunity as soon as they start hiding behind civilians.

The actual doctrine, laws, and ethics about civilian casualties get pretty complex, but to try to simplify it down, it's something more like 'avoid civilian casualties as much as reasonably possible.'

And that's in limited warfare. In unlimited warfare, it is recognized that a nation is waging warfare against another nation, and civilian casualties are no longer considered a meaningful concern. You still don't actively try to cause them, but you don't try to actively avoid them either.

Pray that the Israelis never decide to conduct unlimited warfare.


Bottom line is, the Israelis are doing a reasonable job at trying to avoid unnecessary civilian casualties. Tragically, Hamas tries to actively increase the amount of civilian casualties, so there's only so much that can be done.
 
evilchumlee said:
Criticizing Israel does not make one antisemitic, and it's a lazy argument to throw that out.

I don't hold Israel to a higher standard than anyone else. Civilian causalities are always wrong and need to be avoided at all costs. When other nations do it, they're wrong too.

If your enemy uses human shields and hides among civilians? That sucks... it also doesn't give you authority to just kill civilians. That's when you pull out the scapel, not the jackhammer.

It has nothing to do with Israel or Jewish people at all, it's just the current high profile example.

I 1000% support Israel and don't think the world is doing enough to help them. The US should have had boots on the ground two weeks ago, going door-to-door throughout Gaza. There should be a massive, international buildup along Israel's borders to help with attacks from outside.

Just... enough with the bombing of civilians.
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Except that... according to all the laws and customs of war as well as basic moral logic, and including all the major treaties, the blame for civilians deaths when civilians are used as human shields in war falls on the PARTY USING THEM AS HUMAN SHIELDS. Not the party that is launching the attack. This is the double standard people refer to when talking about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. We would not hold any other nation or military to a standard that is opposite of all the laws and customs of war, but we do with Israel for... "reasons". The fact you see Israel as responsible for civilian deaths, and not Hamas who is using civilians as human shields in opposition to all law and customs of war, is the antisemitic double standard, because no other country or people in world history has been held to that standard.

Further note: the killing of civilians is not inherently a war crime, civilian deaths happen in war and there's "degrees" of civilians, someone can be a civilian and also a legitimate military target. IE, if you're a worker in a munitions factory you are not part of the military and thus a civilian, but you're a legitimate military target since, yanno, you WORK IN A MUNITIONS FACTORY.

So yeah, this entire bullshit about "civilian casualties in war needs to stop" ignores all facts, history, and the laws and customs of war just for bleeding hearts.
 
DarthOne said:
Biden (or rather his puppet masters through him) can say stuff, that doesn’t mean it (in this case said pause) will happen. It could just as easily be for appearances sake.
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Methinks 'Ol Joe got his talking point cards switched, he meant to say "I sure am, let me be very clear, I sure am looking forward to having a pause in my schedule today to sniff...I mean meet those girls today from the local school, he he he!"
 
DarthOne said:
Biden (or rather his puppet masters through him) can say stuff, that doesn’t mean it (in this case said pause) will happen. It could just as easily be for appearances sake.
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They demanded he asks for a ceasefire. He did. What more do you expect him to do?
Yeah, it's stupid and pointless, and Israelis probably won't do it anyway, but it's intra-DNC politics, so stupid and pointless is what one has to expect.
 
Hamas is immensely popular in Gaza. As the saying goes, Democracy means the people deserve to get what they want good and hard, and that's as true for Gaza as it is for San Francisco. Our current fetishism for "civilians" ironically denies their agency. Those parents of a Hamas fighter recorded celebrating with their son about his just having killed Jews like it was a college graduation sure are "civilians" like something between 70% and 90% of Gaza's adult population.

Cherico said:
looks around at the shitty used RV he lives in.

"This is privilege?"
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Group privilege never applies for all individuals of that group. This not being a leftist forum, I would have thought that obvious and taken as given. Nonetheless, by any measure that a leftist can use to measure privilege, Jews have the most of it, yet they also still benefit from DIE due to strong Jewish institutional capture. You may have just heard about all the big white-shoe Law Firms, all massively DIEtastic, some to the point of promising to hire no new (nonjewish) White Men, just issuing an ultimatum for the Ivy League to crack down on anti-semitism. That's institutional power.

And even for the otherwise unprivileged midwestern rural Jew they still benefit tangentially from privilege simply from the in group preferences in hiring and the like that studies have shown every group except white males possess. I can't be sorry that you personally weren't able to get in on the grift, because nobody should have that grift, not even the Asian men that are the only "minorities" left out.
 
S'task said:
The fact you see Israel as responsible for civilian deaths, and not Hamas who is using civilians as human shields in opposition to all law and customs of war, is the antisemitic double standard, because no other country or people in world history has been held to that standard.
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I'm happy to discuss with you and see points your making, but if you're just going to keep calling me antisemitic, there's no point.
 
evilchumlee said:
Criticizing Israel does not make one antisemitic, and it's a lazy argument to throw that out.

I don't hold Israel to a higher standard than anyone else. Civilian causalities are always wrong and need to be avoided at all costs. When other nations do it, they're wrong too.

If your enemy uses human shields and hides among civilians? That sucks... it also doesn't give you authority to just kill civilians. That's when you pull out the scapel, not the jackhammer.

It has nothing to do with Israel or Jewish people at all, it's just the current high profile example.

I 1000% support Israel and don't think the world is doing enough to help them. The US should have had boots on the ground two weeks ago, going door-to-door throughout Gaza. There should be a massive, international buildup along Israel's borders to help with attacks from outside.

Just... enough with the bombing of civilians.
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1. I agree criticizing Israel is not antisemitic, it's annoying when conservatives act like liberals about their sacred cow.

2. Actually if the other side is using civillian shields you should not be held to protect them. It's cold but the other side broke the rules by putting them in danger.

3. Fuck no I disagree America should not have boots on the ground let Israel handle it's own problems.

S'task said:
Except that... according to all the laws and customs of war as well as basic moral logic, and including all the major treaties, the blame for civilians deaths when civilians are used as human shields in war falls on the PARTY USING THEM AS HUMAN SHIELDS. Not the party that is launching the attack. This is the double standard people refer to when talking about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. We would not hold any other nation or military to a standard that is opposite of all the laws and customs of war, but we do with Israel for... "reasons". The fact you see Israel as responsible for civilian deaths, and not Hamas who is using civilians as human shields in opposition to all law and customs of war, is the antisemitic double standard, because no other country or people in world history has been held to that standard.

Further note: the killing of civilians is not inherently a war crime, civilian deaths happen in war and there's "degrees" of civilians, someone can be a civilian and also a legitimate military target. IE, if you're a worker in a munitions factory you are not part of the military and thus a civilian, but you're a legitimate military target since, yanno, you WORK IN A MUNITIONS FACTORY.

So yeah, this entire bullshit about "civilian casualties in war needs to stop" ignores all facts, history, and the laws and customs of war just for bleeding hearts.
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No the conservatives are the ones have a double standard toward Israel. Any attack or criticism makes western anglo conservatives jump to their defense. Other western nations are also attacked when they drone bomb someone. Also Israel does more bombings than other nations again they've killed like 1000 Palestinians so far and it's been less than a month it took the U.S. years with the drone program to get to the same numbers.
 
Bacle said:
When you hold Israel to one standard, a standard that no other nation is held too, and then blame Israel for Hamas using human shields, you very much do come across as an antisemitic person.
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I don't hold Israel to a different standard. That's something that is being put projected onto me.

I have never, at any point, ever blamed Israel for Hamas using human shields. I'm baffled how that conclusion came up.

I've stated I believe the world should be doing MUCH more for Israel.

LordsFire said:
If you aren't going to discuss with others, then will you respond to my post and discuss with me?
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Yes, I will discuss things with those who want to be civil and not just SJW-style screech about racism.

I think this quote here is the best I can respond to
"Bottom line is, the Israelis are doing a reasonable job at trying to avoid unnecessary civilian casualties. Tragically, Hamas tries to actively increase the amount of civilian casualties, so there's only so much that can be done."

This is where it breaks down a bit and where the disagreement is.

I don't think they are doing enough to avoid unnecessary civilian causalities, ESPECIALLY given that Hamas is absolutely trying to increase the amount of civilian causalities. Make no bones, i'm not defending Hamas. Please make no bones about that. I hope Israel roots out every last one of them and renders justice in the most painful and final way possible.

My issue comes with the bombardment of apartment buildings and what not, telling people to leave... but then also bombarding to exit avenues they would have to leave. The complete blockade preventing humanitarian in is unacceptable. I understand that there's an issue that Hamas will certainly try to take it. It's also not an excuse to deny it.

Now I don't even think Israel needs to supply that. I don't blame them for cutting off their enemy. Should be Israel's responsibility at all. It... IS their responsibility to allow others to render aid.

I hold no double standard here, this should be equally applied across all nations. The ethnic or religious makeup of those nations is absolutely, entirely irrelevant.
 
evilchumlee said:
I don't think they are doing enough to avoid unnecessary civilian causalities, ESPECIALLY given that Hamas is absolutely trying to increase the amount of civilian causalities. Make no bones, i'm not defending Hamas. Please make no bones about that. I hope Israel roots out every last one of them and renders justice in the most painful and final way possible.

My issue comes with the bombardment of apartment buildings and what not, telling people to leave... but then also bombarding to exit avenues they would have to leave. The complete blockade preventing humanitarian in is unacceptable. I understand that there's an issue that Hamas will certainly try to take it. It's also not an excuse to deny it.
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How do you think they should deal with apartment blocks that Hamas has based their terror cells in?

As to the bombing of exit routes, I've seen no evidence they actually did such a thing immediately after warning for evacuation, just Hamas propaganda.
 
evilchumlee said:
I don't hold Israel to a different standard. That's something that is being put projected onto me.

I have never, at any point, ever blamed Israel for Hamas using human shields. I'm baffled how that conclusion came up.

I've stated I believe the world should be doing MUCH more for Israel.
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Let's see:
evilchumlee said:
At the same point... Israel doesn't do itself, and by extension, Jews across the world, alot of favors. It's hard to maintain sympathy for the Hamas attacks when Israel responds with... basically straight up warcrimes and a death toll in the thousands and growing.
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evilchumlee said:
Criticizing Israel does not make one antisemitic, and it's a lazy argument to throw that out.

I don't hold Israel to a higher standard than anyone else. Civilian causalities are always wrong and need to be avoided at all costs. When other nations do it, they're wrong too.

If your enemy uses human shields and hides among civilians? That sucks... it also doesn't give you authority to just kill civilians. That's when you pull out the scapel, not the jackhammer.

It has nothing to do with Israel or Jewish people at all, it's just the current high profile example.

I 1000% support Israel and don't think the world is doing enough to help them. The US should have had boots on the ground two weeks ago, going door-to-door throughout Gaza. There should be a massive, international buildup along Israel's borders to help with attacks from outside.

Just... enough with the bombing of civilians.
Click to expand...
You effectively say Israel should allow Hamas's use of human shields to stop them from carrying out airstrikes, call them war crimes, and seem to care more about the lives lost in Gaza than about the dead of Oct 7th.

Saying the US needs to put boots on the ground in Gaza, when all we really need to do is get out of Israel's way, and that Israel/US need to use 'scalpel' and give Hamas a large urban warfare fight, instead of using airstrikes, also shows you want to help Hamas legitimize it's human shield tactics.

There is no 'both sides', and Israel cares more about the 'civies' in Gaza than Hamas does.

Don't want to be called an antisemitic person, don't both sides the issue and try to convince people that Israel should play the game Hamas wants.
 
LordsFire said:
How do you think they should deal with apartment blocks that Hamas has based their terror cells in?

As to the bombing of exit routes, I've seen no evidence they actually did such a thing immediately after warning for evacuation, just Hamas propaganda.
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I'm not a military expert. I don't know. There just... HAS to be a better way.

Bacle said:
You effectively say Israel should allow Hamas's use of human shields to stop them from carrying out airstrikes, call them war crimes, and seem to care more about the lives lost in Gaza than about the dead of Oct 7th.
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I care about both equally. My caring about human life isn't influenced by "what side" they're on.

What do I care about are numbers, and right now... Israel has killed FAR people than Hamas did...
Bacle said:
There is no 'both sides', and Israel cares more about the 'civies' in Gaza than Hamas does.

Don't want to be called an antisemitic person, don't both sides the issue and try to convince people that Israel should play the game Hamas wants.
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If they really cared about civilians, they would be at the very least allowing humanitarian aid in.

Israel cares about destroying their enemies and defending themselves. I'm sympathetic to that. I very much am. I very much support Israel. Fuck Hamas. Kill every last one of them.

But... they need to be better about not killing the Not Hamas people.

It IS possible to support a people/place/thing while also being critical of person/place/thing.

Alittle disappointed in this board, though. Having to 100% support everything Israel does ever all the time without question or your antisemitic is a very SJW attitude. I thought this was the place to come to get away from that.
 
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