Terthna
Professional Lurker
I don't want to, but that's war; and refusing to do so just leads to more war.
Hamas Launches Offensive Against Southern Israel
- Thread starter Marduk
- Start date
You aren't talking about the Gazans, but the Palestinians as a whole. You said Palestinian and Palestinian means Palestinian.
I am not sure why you changed to Gazans, but I'll assume it is a mistake and not something else. Better to be charitable. So I am going to continue with what you said originally, and answer that.
Anyways, so not, it would not be a good thing as it means the subjugation and humiliation of an entire people. To push an entire people's collective nose into the dirt and have their spirits so utterly broken as to never aspire to nationhood, to accept a destiny as living as a subjugated people. Also, there is the problem that the face value interpretation is similar to a particular sort of rhetoric here I have seen., which is why I am giving it the side eye. People here wish horrid things against the Palestinian people, and have even called for outright genocide. Not just the men, but the women and children too. I have actually become increasingly horrified at the rhetoric here, and I think many should stop to think about what they are saying and what others are saying here. Morality is universal, and no matter what side you are on. Right is right and wrong is wrong.
And, on their ideology. What would the ideology of the Palestinians be? Well, listening to all of the voices, from the good to the bad, to the downright ugly- I would say National Liberation. They wish to have their own free nation, and as long as it is not at the cost of Israel's existence or a just solution. I see nothing wrong with their own right to aspire to a nation, all people's do. I am not sure if Hamas cares at all about national liberation.
So I am sorry, I cannot respond to this as I was responding to you talking about all Palestinians. If you wish to restate this argument again, as part of your response I will answer it as such. Just, restate it, or simply ask me to answer this formulation and I'll answer on the people of Gaza.
This is false. Being larger and more powerful does not increase your moral obligation to exercise greater restraint than your enemies.
Terthna
Professional Lurker
Except that's a lie; they've been offered their own free nation time and time again, yet have always refused because the offer never included the extermination of every Jew in Israel.
Terthna
Professional Lurker
That you think they haven't just shows how delusional you are, and that you intend to condemn Israel no matter what they do.
It isn't a lie. I mean if they have refused every time, you can then point to each and every time you refer to and prove it. You said that time and time again they have refused, because of that then you can point out in writing or in their own words when they have said that.
Go on, show me I am wrong.
And then I would say the opposite about you, you intend to support Israel no matter what they do. Unless you can point to me where you can opposed an action by Israel on moral or political grounds, then the inverse of the same accusation fits you quite well.
No, I am pretty sure it does. The more power you have, the more capable of restraint you are.
If you can avoid unneeded bloodshed- you should. The less innocents die, the better.
And, I am pretty sure Augustine of Hippo would have words with you.
I never lumped the West Bank in with the Gaza situation; you can check the post's I've made in this thread with the search engine even, and you won't find me talking about the West Bank or the Palestinian Authority here either.
Again, check the search function and my posts in this thread; I have not mentioned the West Bank or Palestinain Authority as being part of the Hamas/Gaza death cult (despite the PA still paying martyrdom stipends to families of Oct 7th attackers).
And the people in Gaza who have been deeply brainwashed from childhood into the martyrdom lifestyle do not hold the same views of morality being 'universal' and frankly morality isn't universe.
Friend/enemy distinction doesn't simply go away or become irrelevant, just because the death cult is trying to play on western naivety and compassion as cover against Israel, and have for decades.
As Ben Shapiro said "If the Palestinians put down their guns tomorrow, they would have a state; if Israel put down their guns tomorrow, you'd have millions of dead Jews."
It is not 'national liberation', it is a fake ethnicity created to act as a catspaw against Israel for the Arabs to push discontents of multiple ethnicities into. There never was a 'nation' of Palestine, there was just Judea/Israel with multiple different masters/renaming by conquerors till 1948.
Don't believe me, check the texts in the Torah and the Old Testament; Israel/Judea was the name of the land before the Romans renamed it after the Phillistines to insult the Jewish exiles.
Again, you will not find a post by me in this thread that mentions the West Bank or Palestinian Authority before this one.
And you can check this with the fucking search function, if you want to keep insisting I said something I didn't/used words I have not.
This has nothing to do with Hamas, and everything to do with the people who aren't in Hamas, and how you don't care if innocent people die. Get some sense of morals knocked into your empty head.
By your logic, the US should have bombed everyone in Jonestown and Port Kaituma just to kill the hundreds of cultists.
"Oh, there's a Hamas member in that city? Strategic bomb it until no one survives." -Bacle's logic
Bitch please. You aren't taking lessons from them. This isn't about tactics at all. This is about you saying that killing 2 million people is okay.
This again is completely off topic from what I said. It doesn't matter who should own the island. I really don't give a shit about it. The issue is that you think Japan should declare war on Russia over them right now. It's a take so moronic that Joe Biden would wake up and take notice.
You love war. You share more views with Hillary Clinton than Trump. You are the Uniparty. You have no morals.
There's a difference between Hiroshima and what Bacle proposed. Hiroshima was a city. It was a wake up call to a death cult, it wasn't systematically killing everyone in Japan.
Them invading? That will be the brutality that would work, followed by whatever annexations or whatever are needed. But just killing everyone there is not a solution acceptable to the Israeli people, which is why they are the good guys. If they were okay killing everyone, they wouldn't be the good guys.
That very much is not their ideology, or at least not the ideology of their leaders. They want a single state solution, which means the end of Israel. Hence the "from the river to the sea" chants. Arafat purposely wrecked the Camp David Accords while planning the second Intifada the entire time, for example, despite being offered basically everything.
We can hear their ideology on Memri TV, for example.
King Arts
Well-known member
Just look at people like Zach for why I don't really care about trying to "convert" these people. They are just racist against one side. Then clutch pearls if someone says something against their favored group.
And again I'm not accusing all jews. Why a large majority of Jews are liberal is a seperate conversation. But I don't blame all Jews for liberalism just like I don't blame all Muslims for terrorism.
I know in eastern europe, and europe in general so I would assume Poland is the same. Kneeling for Israel is not as popular as it is among Americans. Like the popular position on the right is not giving a damn, a second place is support for Palestine and supporting Israel is 3rd place.
So he isn't that much of a fringe compared to you. He doesen't care about either side.
No if they don't live by that professed philosophical belief they are bad people. But if someone professes to believe in your code isn't it more likely they will live in a way you consider good than someone who supports an alien belief system?
Aren't you also an internationalist so you shouldn't throw stones when you are in a glass house? You support a vague "Western culture" not Polish culture after all you are rushing to defend Israel when you are not Israeli and you are Polish. How does that align with nationalist values? I understand Poland's interests are to be free of Russia so that means getting an alliance with a strong power preferably America or China so it makes sense to throw a bone to the friendly hegemonic imperial power. But you don't have to simp and grovel for every one of their policies. Like just meeting the 2% military defense spending in NATO will already give a leg up on support compared to other European nations. But Poland's interests aren't served by supporting every U.S. move to cause a war in the middle east or Asia.
This is false all nations care about national borders. Since the dawn of kingdoms and empires they have cared, Islam was created after kingdoms and empires and has had quite a few of it's own. Again rival emirs and Sultans have fought over land and resources and have had alliances with Christian nations to fight others.
You saw me talking with others earlier, you can see some of it references here also.
*sigh* you look only at a surface level.
No Jews can't invade us and replace us with them. But they can send their problems to be our problems by sending the Muslims to us for example. Also it would be in the interests of western nations to have a wall to prevent migrants. It's a shame that it's in the interests of Israel to make sure there is no wall and that Europe can be a pressure release valve to take in some Migrants that way Israel does not have to defend us.
I've seen Muslims be critical towards October 7th, and many of them be angry at Israel's response yes. Tell me why are you acting like it's crazy for them? If a group you feel kinship with was invaded and kicked off their land and did not give up the fight would you criticize them?
Let's give pretend this is Russia and Ukraine. Let's say Russia decides to push many Ukrainians out of Ukraine and move in Russians in that area, the Ukrainian army is completely defeated but the Ukrainian people fight on as partisans under various groups. This goes on for 70 years and in 2090 these Ukrainians attack into the Ukrainians lands Russia took and launch terrorist attacks. Is this black and white or morally grey?
See shit like this is why I tell neocons to get fucked because they are racist assholes. @Hlaalu Agent watch as the neocons get angry if you do this.
Hey Zach "Jews are our enemy because they want everyone who is not a Jew dead or enslaved.
You included.
Well radical Jews.
Some of them are diffrent."
Israel’s Sephardic Chief Rabbi: Gentiles Here To Serve the Jews
JERUSALEM — Non-Jews should not live in the Land of Israel unless they accept the seven Noahide Laws, Israel’s Sephardic chief rabbi said. Rabbi Yitzhak Yosef made the statement during his weekly Saturday night lecture, Israel’s Channel 10 first reported. Channel 10 obtained a copy of a...
forward.com
Israeli chief rabbi retracts comments on non-Jews, killing terrorists
Rabbi retracts statements, says “always adopted a peaceful and embracing path.”
Terthna
Professional Lurker
Have you already forgotten what just happened a month ago? Or have you just chosen to disregard the slaughter because it doesn't fit your narrative? Israel has been trying to make a two state solution work for decades (not continuously of course; people tend to back down from trying to push the idea whenever the bodies start pilling up again, but it always picks back up once the memories fade), yet every time it looks like the Palestinians are going to accept peace, it turns out that no; they were just lulling Israel into a false sense of security so they could conduct yet more terrorist attacks on them.
Comprehensive Listing of Terrorism Victims in Israel
Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org
Keep in mind, they had troops in Gaza but pulled them out almost two decades ago as a show of good faith; and look what that's gotten them.
1. Most forces exercise restraint because that restraint gives them something in return. Israel has already exercised more restraint than 90% of the other countries in this world would have.
2. How many of your own forces and innocent civilians have to die to protect the innocent that support the enemy intent on exterminating you?
3. I'd love to be able to speak with Augustine.
Terthna
Professional Lurker
Except again, that's a lie. The Palestinians weren't invaded; they tried to exterminate their Jewish population, and lost a civil war. Then some of their descendants tried to invade and take over other Middle Eastern nations, and were shipped back to Israel to become the Jews' problem when they lost.
The majority of the Gazan population is part of Hamas and/or Islamic Jihad almost from childhood now, do to how they have taken control of the schools.
The whole place, all of Gaza, is a Hamas or Islamic Jihad camp in one way or another, and no one can live or operate in Gaza without Hamas's blessing.
No, I understand what urban combat entails and what sort of madness Hamas has created in that place, and how many Israeli/Jewish lives have been spent over the years trying to handle this the 'nice' way.
I also understand the level of indoctrination of the youth of Gaza, and a 10 year old can still operate a suicide vest or RPG.
Like, did the existence of the Hitler Youth in the front lines during the Nazi endgame somehow elude you, or do you think a 10 year old cannot be brainwashed enough to blow themselves up to take out a tank or fire on IDF with RPGs/ATGMs?
I am also someone who will not risk the lives of people I value for the lives of people who would probably wish me dead, if other options are available, and that is what Israel has to do to do any of this the 'humane' way.
Japan already does own the islands, and since neither the USSR or Russia ever signed the treaty ending WW2 with Japan, technically we are still deal with a WW2 conflict in this matter.
So no new war would need to be declared by the US or Japan to justify getting those islands back, because a state of war already exists in the matter.
And frankly, if Japan did decide to remove the illegal Russian presence in the Kuril's, they could probably get a foreign legion of weebs to do it, and the JSDF is one of the best military's in the world at this point.
I do not love war, but I will not shy away from a justified or necessary war, nor do I believe that allowing an enemy to strike first is moral, and if war is unavoidable, best to not pull punches or play fuckfuck games with willing human shields.
Hamas won't surrender to that amount of force like the Japanese Emperor did, and Gaza is not an entire island chain, and we actually understand what fallout is now.
The death cult camp that is Gaza is controlled by Hamas, and has even the children indoc into martyrdom. I simply do not have a problem if Israel decided to not spend anymore IDF lives doing ground operations to rescue hostages who are likely mostly dead anyway, and decided to simply level the place block by block to make sure it was never useful as a staging ground for attacks on Israel ever again.
I never insisted you used words you didn't use, you literally said Palestinians and I was answering that post. Now, I am convinced you actually meant Palestinians, and that it was a verbal slip. You literally said, Palestinians, and I answered it as such. Also, this thread is only five pages long, and you have posted only 15 times... Though, you have mentioned Palestinians elsewhere and have spoke at length about how you don't think their existence as a people is legitimate...
So you know what, I know believe you actually meant it. As it aligns with what you have said elsewhere. You literally went at length at how you don't believe they exist as a people right here. You are calling them a fake ethnicity in response to me believing that you said that the Palestinians as a people should be crushed. I mean if you didn't believe that, why would you go on a rant about them not being a real people?
And since you don't believe morality is universal, than you believe that morality changes from situation to situation. Nothing is universally right or wrong, but is entirely depending on each instance. Sounds rather convenient doesn't it?
Have you already forgotten what just happened a month ago? Or have you just chosen to disregard the slaughter because it doesn't fit your narrative? Israel has been trying to make a two state solution work for decades (not continuously of course; people tend to back down from trying to push the idea whenever the bodies start pilling up again, but it always picks back up once the memories fade), yet every time it looks like the Palestinians are going to accept peace, it turns out that no; they were just lulling Israel into a false sense of security so they could conduct yet more terrorist attacks on them.
Comprehensive Listing of Terrorism Victims in Israel
Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.
Keep in mind, they had troops in Gaza but pulled them out almost two decades ago as a show of good faith; and look what that's gotten them.
So, rather than actually prove your point. You take one particular event, and then give me a list of terrorist attacks. Yes, it was an act of horrific slaughter and terror, but it is one event.
This isn't what I asked for. Either put up, or shut up. I asked for proof, and you tried to pull a fast one.
And really, if Israel is committed to a two-state solution- then why do they continue to expand settlements?
Settlement Expansion in Occupied Palestinian Territory Violates International Law, Must Cease, Many Delegates Tell Security Council | Meetings Coverage and Press Releases
Pointing to ongoing expansion of Israeli settlements, demolition of Palestinian structures, daily violence and continued inflammatory rhetoric by their Government representatives, a senior United Nations official reiterated to the Security Council the Secretary-General’s appeal for an end to the...
Or why do Israeli settlers commit acts of violence against Palestinians, and attempt to push them off their land?
UN reports says West Bank settler violence has displaced over 1,100 Palestinians since 2022
A U.N. report says over 1,100 Palestinians have fled their homes in the West Bank since the start of 2022 due to Israeli settler violence.
apnews.com
3 small Palestinian villages emptied out this summer. Residents blame Israeli settler attacks
United Nations monitors say three small Palestinian herding villages have emptied out over the past four months, with residents blaming mounting violence by Israeli settlers.
apnews.com
Yep, totally committed to the two-state solution.
Again, provide what I am asking for. You made a factual claim and refused to provide actual evidence.
King Arts
Well-known member
That is the Israeli side to the story, and sure it's possible. But for the sake of the argument can you assume that Palestinians were there first and were forced out by Israel, and then engage with the Ukraine scenario I gave. In that case would you support the Russia of 2090 in killing off the future Ukrainians?
I recognize the burden to seek peace lies with the Palestinians. But they can make the argument that peace is not the highest good and that they are entitled to the land. After all the U.S. in world war 2 could have accepted peace earlier with Japan in a negotiated settlement instead of demanding an unconditional surrender. You even used that war earlier to compare it. So let's use it, is peace itself your highest good or is it acceptable to continue the war to achieve "total victory" of your state?
King Arts
Well-known member
True, but beating on those weaker than you doesen't make anyone with actual integrity think higher of you.
This is a lie with a kernal of truth in it. The Palestinian leadership HAS been offered the chance to have their own state. And they have not taken it because they want all of the land yes. Saying that a Palestinian state would kill all Jews is a bit much. You can argue if it's reasonable for Palestine to keep fighting for the land or not. But again other nations have fought on to get everything they want instead of accepting negotiated peace like the U.S. in ww2.
Also there is the scenario in the other thread I gave if Russia took over half of Ukraine would it be acceptable for Ukraine to keep fighting Russia for 70 years?(Assuming the Russians were serious about permanent peace for the rump Ukrainian state. Unlikely fantasy but still)
No it's not a lie the Palestinians have been unreasonable. Personally I feel that you should be willing to accept negotiated deals I even think the U.S. was wrong in ww2 for demanding unconditional surrender from the Japs instead of accepting a conditional one. But at least we had the upper hand in that war. Palestine is weaker than Israel so them being stupid about it is really tiresome. They should just accept peace and acknowledge they lost and won't get all of their land back(if it really is theirs but that's a diffrent debate)
Terthna
Professional Lurker
No; what you did was the same thing every regressive leftist on SpaceBattles does. Demand proof, then complain about how it doesn't count when provided, and try to claim "victory" by default; as if "winning" an argument on the internet matters.
Again, if they weren't committed; why did they pull all of their troops out back in 2005, and relocated every Jewish civilian that lived in Gaza at the time (which was 8,000)? Or do you refuse to acknowledge it happened until you've seen a Wikipedia article on it? Well, fine; here you go:And really, if Israel is committed to a two-state solution- then why do they continue to expand settlements?
Settlement Expansion in Occupied Palestinian Territory Violates International Law, Must Cease, Many Delegates Tell Security Council | Meetings Coverage and Press Releases
Pointing to ongoing expansion of Israeli settlements, demolition of Palestinian structures, daily violence and continued inflammatory rhetoric by their Government representatives, a senior United Nations official reiterated to the Security Council the Secretary-General’s appeal for an end to the...press.un.org
Or why do Israeli settlers commit acts of violence against Palestinians, and attempt to push them off their land?
UN reports says West Bank settler violence has displaced over 1,100 Palestinians since 2022
A U.N. report says over 1,100 Palestinians have fled their homes in the West Bank since the start of 2022 due to Israeli settler violence.
3 small Palestinian villages emptied out this summer. Residents blame Israeli settler attacks
United Nations monitors say three small Palestinian herding villages have emptied out over the past four months, with residents blaming mounting violence by Israeli settlers.
Yep, totally committed to the two-state solution.
Again, provide what I am asking for. You made a factual claim and refused to provide actual evidence.
Israeli disengagement from Gaza - Wikipedia
"All north koreans should be killed, because they all worship a slaver."
Same logic, same lack of morals. You have the moral capacity of a chimp.
"Just to be sure there are no bad guys, better murder all of the children too"
Fuck off. You advocate for every war there is. You lust for blood. At least a Neonazi is honest about their evil.
"I'm scum who wants innocent kids to die" -Bacle
Again, you completely failed to actually address my points: There are innocent people in Gaza. There are Christians, the polling data consistently has them having an under 50% approval, there are babies, etc. You being fine with there death makes you a bad person. You make no difference between good and evil, you just want death because they have the audacity to be victims of Hamas that you don't recognize. Your utter lack of humanity is not surprising. But that's what you do Bacle: you disappoint in everything.
As a side note:
Bacle: "Muh Military strategy says murder a country"
Also Bacle: "Japan should invade Russia, that'll go great!"
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No; what you did was the same thing every regressive leftist on SpaceBattles does. Demand proof, then complain about how it doesn't count when provided, and try to claim "victory" by default; as if "winning" an argument on the internet matters.
Again, if they weren't committed; why did they pull all of their troops out back in 2005, and relocated every Jewish civilian that lived in Gaza at the time (which was 8,000)? Or do you refuse to acknowledge it happened until you've seen a Wikipedia on it? Well, fine; here you go:
Israeli disengagement from Gaza - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
So you refuse to provide proof, and then compare me to a SB leftist. The only person that sounds like an SB leftist is you, as when called on the lack of goods you immediately jump to attack someone personally.
You literally didn't provide it. I asked for proof that they wanted to commit genocide, and not proof Hamas is a bunch of insane savages. And that there were terrorist attacks against Israel. How does that prove your point? It doesn't, there is no evidence to show intent on the part of the Palestinian people. If it actually is provable, you can simply provide a link to Palestinians saying "Yes, we want to exterminate the Jews". It sounds be trivially easy.
edit: I am talking about documents like this,
The Avalon Project : Hamas Covenant 1988
avalon.law.yale.edu
Where Hamas originally says they want to destroy Israel. This sort of thing, except for everyone who isn't Hamas.
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www.middleeasteye.net
And here where they seem to dance around the issue, but are more or less saying "destroy Israel".
I want evidence of this sort, can you provide it for Fatah and the rest? Because that is what I am asking at the very least. This includes interviews, periodicals, and the like.
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