Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

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Typhonis said:
You know they could have replaced the First Order with the Helghast from Killzone and it would be a better movie?

After the fall of the Empire a charismatic leader gathers the remnants together with a promise to return them to the glory days of the Empire. To destroy the corruption and ineptitude that now dominates the Galaxy. To free the Galaxy from the machinations of the Jedi and the Sith. Because they are one and the same.
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Agent23 said:
You mean like what happened in an obscure trilogy of novels called Heir to the Empire?
By a largely unknown author names Timothy Zahn.
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You mean we could have had the Empire of the Hand emerge from wild space to start picking up the shattered pieces of leftover Imperial warlords still holding out against the New Republic? Led by people actually politically loyal tot he concept of the Empire rather than than retarded Sith cultists with no plan more deep that "lol, evil"? Maybe while we're at it I could get to see the New Modernization Program ships fighting for the Republic rather than older ones with extra bits sticking out because nostalgia is more important than good ship design? Oh boy, next you'll tell me we'll get a Band of Brother's style series showing Alliance grunts as they struggle to free a planet after all the prima donnas are done showing off in space. With a spin-off movie about Imperial troopers in a Zulu situation on some hell planet!

Doesn't Star Wars have so much potential!
 
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The idea isn't a Thrawn character. Take one premise of the Sequal Trilogy....it is Thirty Years later and the new group has been watching the New Republic tear itself apart trying to chase down the remnants of the Empire.

Thus it isn't Heir to the Empire, maybe in broad strokes. But instead of a Thrawn style character...you have someone much, much worse. I mean part of my inspiration was Killzone.

"Palpatine was the first Emperor but he was not very good. He did not start the fire nor did he start the rot. It was always there. He simply painted over it and said everything was fine while he gathered power unto himself and his monsters."

"This is made even more evident by the rot and corruption in the New Republic. The rot that destroyed it, the corruption that killed it. All can see it in the New Order and all can see where it will end!"

"The Jedi will not save you. Neither will the Sith. For they are the same group. The same deluded fools that claim to follow a higher causes to save us all. NONSENSE. Palpatine was Sith, as was his apprentice, Skywalker and all saw the depths of depravity they got up too. Can we not expect the same from the son and daughter of Skywalker?"

"We need a new path! We need a new purpose. A senate of the people, by the people and for the people. Not rich nere do wells who sit around and collect money while allowing the powers to get richer. To allow the cursed practices of slavery and spice addiction to continue."

"To these I say NO."

"We will stand against corruption, against the abuses we have seen and are self evident. To the young we offer the assurance of a future for them and their children. To the elderly an assurance their hard work will be rewarded. To those who serve the promise of Citizenship."

"To the worlds of the Imperial Remnant, to the Worlds of the New Republic. Throw off the shackles of the past and follow us into a bright future. The road to it is wide and there is room for all. To those who would fight us....you will be crushed to dust and forgotten by history."

"This is my promise, this is my pledge, For the People, For the Senate, For the EMPIRE!"

Lucas made the empire look like the Nazi's. Imagine the heroes trying to stop an interstellar version of Rome. The Star Wars version of Augustus Caesar. Isn't that a scary thought?

I just need to figure out how to do Senatus Populus Que Romanus Star Wars style. Is he a hypocrite? Who knows. He may just be promising big.
 
Typhonis said:
The idea isn't a Thrawn character. Take one premise of the Sequal Trilogy....it is Thirty Years later and the new group has been watching the New Republic tear itself apart trying to chase down the remnants of the Empire.

Thus it isn't Heir to the Empire, maybe in broad strokes. But instead of a Thrawn style character...you have someone much, much worse. I mean part of my inspiration was Killzone.

"Palpatine was the first Emperor but he was not very good. He did not start the fire nor did he start the rot. It was always there. He simply painted over it and said everything was fine while he gathered power unto himself and his monsters."

"This is made even more evident by the rot and corruption in the New Republic. The rot that destroyed it, the corruption that killed it. All can see it in the New Order and all can see where it will end!"

"The Jedi will not save you. Neither will the Sith. For they are the same group. The same deluded fools that claim to follow a higher causes to save us all. NONSENSE. Palpatine was Sith, as was his apprentice, Skywalker and all saw the depths of depravity they got up too. Can we not expect the same from the son and daughter of Skywalker?"

"We need a new path! We need a new purpose. A senate of the people, by the people and for the people. Not rich nere do wells who sit around and collect money while allowing the powers to get richer. To allow the cursed practices of slavery and spice addiction to continue."

"To these I say NO."

"We will stand against corruption, against the abuses we have seen and are self evident. To the young we offer the assurance of a future for them and their children. To the elderly an assurance their hard work will be rewarded. To those who serve the promise of Citizenship."

"To the worlds of the Imperial Remnant, to the Worlds of the New Republic. Throw off the shackles of the past and follow us into a bright future. The road to it is wide and there is room for all. To those who would fight us....you will be crushed to dust and forgotten by history."

"This is my promise, this is my pledge, For the People, For the Senate, For the EMPIRE!"

Lucas made the empire look like the Nazi's. Imagine the heroes trying to stop an interstellar version of Rome. The Star Wars version of Augustus Caesar. Isn't that a scary thought?

I just need to figure out how to do Senatus Populus Que Romanus Star Wars style. Is he a hypocrite? Who knows. He may just be promising big.
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I think him being genuine works better. Also, given how the Force is sort of a stand in/interpretation through Eastern concepts of the Will of God, it makes him a fitting villain for the secularist and nay-theistic age we live in.

Edit: missed some words. Also, for extra fun, make said political leader female to represent the Big Mother Nanny State.
 
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Interestingly, the "Augustus" being decribed here reminds me more of Liu Bang (a.k.a. Gaozu, the founder of the Han dynasty).

Go figure: you first have a very capable, but certainly controversial and genocidal, conqueror who unites civilisation under his authoritarian rule. Although initially welcomed, that tyrant emperor -- Qin Shi Huangdi in case of China, Palpatine in case of the galaxy -- becomes ever more paranoid, murderous and just plain evil as time passes. Each assassination attempt and insurrection only seems to turn him more cruel and mercurial. After his death, the empire he has built cannot last. Into this anarchy sweeps a hypercapable figure -- Liu Bang -- who outplays all his rivals and restores order to civilisation. He neither continues the mad emperor's excesses, nor does he restore the weak and disjointed set-up that preceded that emperor's rule. He builds a sane, stable empire that is going to last a very long time.

Note that Liu Bang was not a partisan of that "Qin" faction, and represented a new synthesis, merging an appeal to tradition (and the legitimacy of the long-standing civilisation that preceded the Qin regime) with a willingness to adopt the useful and practical reforms of Qin (which enabled effective governance over a vast realm). Neither is the "Augustus" figure in this scenario presented as being a "Palpatinist"-- but rather, like Liu Bang, as an outsider presenting a synthesis.


Compare that to actual Augustus: in his case, we see that the highly capable but certainly controversial figure (Caesar) never had the chance to become genocidal against his own people. He was betrayed and murdered before he could do so. The first big attempt to assassinate him succeeded. He died a hero, before he could become the villain. And Octavian was his chosen heir. Very much a partisan of the "Caesarist" faction. Of course, despite his lip service to such a political legacy, Augustus also implemented a synthesis merging an appeal to cultural tradition with a willingness to enact pratical reform.

The point is: to really have "Augustus" in SW, the basic set-up would have to be that Mace Windu succeeds in killing Palpatine, but then the populace turns against the Jedi, and civil war ensues. A big problem is that Palpatine has no "Octavian" to name as his heir. (It's not Anakin, for sure. If anything, Anakin would be Marcus Antonius.)


...Of course, "an SW scenario based on the events of ancient Chinese history, but stylistically coded more in the Roman style" is a perfectly legitimate approach.
 
Lord Sovereign said:
Speaking of Eastern inspiration for how the story could pan out, I still think “Three Kingdoms in Space” with “Moff Cao Cao” would be quite fun, but the rise of the Han on a galactic scale would still be quite a thing to behold.

Vastly better than the trash we got.
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Well you have the 'Imperial' Remnant. The chaff left over from the 1st Galactic Empire imploding after Palpatine's death. The leftover of those forces that fought on and were caught in Operation Cinder. Next the New Republic. The Republic restored and formatted as it was AFTER the Ruusan Reformation and just as capable. Many planets hate the idea of a central military and what the Republic has is just enough to keep the Remnant at bay.

The Hutts and cartels have been watching from the sidelines and cackling. They have also been selling weapons to anyone with enough money to buy them. Clone War era gear, combat droids, refurbished Palpatine era equipment.

Into this the third faction steps up. One that claims to be the Empire reborn. Only without the Sith fuckery and war crimes. As others have said a synthesis of the Old Republic with the ability to allow new ideas and concepts to improve things. Thanks to this both sides have been loosing worlds to the third faction. Either by outright conquest or defection.

The older heroes are not in any shape to fight what many see as a new threat. So it falls to a new generation to step up or will they?
 
...so, basically, the Fel Empire? I mean, that's basically the setup for Legacy, the Galactic Federation, the One Sith Empire, and the Fel Empire. Granted, the One Sith Empire only arose after allying with and then double-crossing the Fels, not to mention the Emperor himself falling to the Dark Side and needing to be deposed and then put down by his daughter and the remaining Imperial Knights...

...but still, the way it ends, with the Fels ascendant and even the Jedi committing to supporting them for the sake of ending open war in the galaxy, pretty much mirrors the end of the Three Kingdoms.
 
Skallagrim said:
Interestingly, the "Augustus" being decribed here reminds me more of Liu Bang (a.k.a. Gaozu, the founder of the Han dynasty).
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The-Glorious-Ascension-of-Emperor-Solo.png
 
For everyone who complains about the chips and whether they should make sense or not, I have one counter argument.

Fives and his story line.

That is all.
 
Bassoe said:
The-Glorious-Ascension-of-Emperor-Solo.png
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Okay, that's hilarious!

Of course, it also kind of shows why Han would not, in fact, be all that suited to the role. You have to actually want to bring some kind of order to the galaxy, for this kind of thing to work out. This is truly playing the game on the highest level, and you have to be in it to win it.

---------------------------------

When I wrote that thing comparing SW to Rome, a few years back, I actually cast Han as a sort of analogue to Juba II of Numidia, on the basis that Anakin/Vader would be the Marcus Antonius, which makes Luke and Leia into Alexander Helios and Cleopatra Selene. (The latter of whom married Juba II.) This kind of works, if you consider that Han is maybe the rightful heir to the throne of Corellia, and this scenario could see him successfully pushing that claim.

Han as Space Augustus is great for a crackfic, but I don't really see it as being within his psychological range. For starters, he's not sufficiently willing to commit mass murder. :p
 
I mean, just because Disney Star Wars has some good moments, it doesn't make the whole reboot good or watchable. It's basically like adding more deck chairs or lifeboats on the Titanic, and doesn't actually save the sinking ship. That, or spraying air freshener around and over a rotting pile of garbage. It might not smell bad anymore, but it doesn't actually change the fact that it's still garbage in the end.
 
Just saw a post on AH.com, mentioning a Salon article, that before Carrie Fisher signed on to become Princess Leia, Lucas was going for Jodie Foster to take the role. Foster refused, because she was already working on a Disney movie, and didn't want to break contract.

The article also mention other actresses who were contenders for the role before that. Meryl Streep auditioned for the role(she was a theater actress back then), and in the running were also Jane Seymour, Kim Basinger, Geena Davis, Glenn Close, Jessica Lange, Sigourney Weaver, Anjelica Huston and Sissy Spacek(Amy Irving may also have been a contender).

So, what would change with any of those in the Princess Leia role? Many of those were either noticeably older or noticeably younger(especially Foster, which would have been around 13 back then) than Carrie Fisher, so either 'Luke and Leia are twins' is out, or there will have to be a different casting for Luke Skywalker(former being much more likely IMO).
 
gral said:
Just saw a post on AH.com, mentioning a Salon article, that before Carrie Fisher signed on to become Princess Leia, Lucas was going for Jodie Foster to take the role. Foster refused, because she was already working on a Disney movie, and didn't want to break contract.
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Salon is ludicrously unreliable. Glorified buzzfeed. So I looked up the source, and it's a Jodie Foster interview where she only says that they considered a younger Leia early on, and that she auditioned, but had to drop out (of the auditioning process) because of another role that was a sure thing.

She hadn't been offered the role.


gral said:
The article also mention other actresses who were contenders for the role before that. Meryl Streep auditioned for the role(she was a theater actress back then), and in the running were also Jane Seymour, Kim Basinger, Geena Davis, Glenn Close, Jessica Lange, Sigourney Weaver, Anjelica Huston and Sissy Spacek(Amy Irving may also have been a contender).

So, what would change with any of those in the Princess Leia role? Many of those were either noticeably older or noticeably younger(especially Foster, which would have been around 13 back then) than Carrie Fisher, so either 'Luke and Leia are twins' is out, or there will have to be a different casting for Luke Skywalker(former being much more likely IMO).
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As far as I know, there were auditions, yes. The recordings are even on YouTube. And of those named here, Amy Irving is actually one that we know auditioned, just like Foster and Sissy Spacek. All the others mentioned are possible, but I've never seen test footage of that. There are some other actresses that auditioned, and of whom test footage can be found online. That would be Cindy Williams, Linda Purl, Karen Allen, Koo Stark and Terri Nunn. (Note that Karen Allen was later cast in Raiders of the Lost Ark, and Koo Stark got a bit part in ANH, although that was relegated to the deleted scenes later.)

Meanwhile, actors William Katt, Robby Benson, Will Seltzer and Charles Martin Smith auditioned for the role of Luke. (Kurt Russell, too, but he was soon a contender for the role of Han instead.) I gather that William Katt was the other major candidate, next to Hamill.

The list of potential "Han Solos" is even weirder. Besides Kurt Russell, you had Nick Nolte, Burt Reynolds, Sylvester Stallone, Christopher Walken, James Caan, Perry King... and also Al Pacino (who famously said "I don't get what this is about" and left)... and then the really "out there" options: Jack Nicholson, Robert De Niro, Kelsey Grammer, Bill Murray, Steve Martin and Chevy Chase.

(Do note that initially, Han Solo was going to be a green alien, and more of a comical character. So maybe that explains the latter candidates.)



As an aside: Lucas first offered the role of Tarkin to Christopher Lee, and initially wanted Peter Cushing for the role of Obi-Wan Kenobi. He also offered the latter part to Toshiro Mifune. (Who turned it down, and also didn't speak English.) Mel Blanc and Richard Dreyfuss were considered for the voice of C-3PO. And, of course, Lucas initially considered Orson Welles for the voice of Darth Vader.



Anyway, I'm assuming that the film develops similarly otherwise, so certain 'weirder' options still get ruled out by that. Han Solo won't be a quasi-comical alien sidekick. They nixed that early on. And they figured out that they needed Leia to be a bit older very early on in production, so that pretty much rules out Jodie Foster (14 at the time of filming) and Terri Nunn (15 at the time of filming). Likewise, they wanted Luke to be young and boyish, which would ultimately rule out Will Seltzer (even though Lucas liked his acting). This would in turn probably rule out Meryl Streep, Jessica Lange, Sigourney Weaver, Sissy Spacek, Glenn Close and Cindy Williams. Meanwhile, Koo Stark was ruled out because... well, frankly, she wasn't much of an actress. So I assume that would still be the case regardless.



As far as ages go, Mark Hamill was 5 years older than Carrie Fisher to begin with. So some age differences can be made to work. During filming, the age comparison of the most credible candidates would look like this:

Carrie Fisher: 19
Geena Davis: 19
Linda Purl: 21
Kim Basinger: 22
Amy Irving: 22
Karen Allen: 24
Jane Seymour: 24
Anjelica Huston: 24

Robby Benson: 20
Charles Martin Smith: 22
William Katt: 24
Mark Hamill: 24

Kurt Russell: 24
Perry King: 27
Sylvester Stallone: 30
Harrison Ford: 33
Christopher Walken: 33
Nick Nolte: 35
James Caan: 36
Burt Reynolds: 40
 
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"Star Wars" is dead. Kathleen Kennedy and Disney did the seemingly impossible: they killed what seemed to be an invincible franchise.

Look, if I had been in charge I would have considered the obvious: there is no possible way the Galactic Empire was going to just be gone after the Battle of Endor. Those Star Destroyers could not have been all the Empire had.

What would have almost certainly happened was, with the Emperor dead, the Imperial Governors and lesser bureaucrats would form petty kingdoms and political spheres. Even if the New Republic was competent (and in the Disney sequels they must have been imbeciles) it would take a long, long time to clean everything up. Against a common threat some of those entities would likely unite, and the New Republic would have to deal with resource allotment problems, it would take time for them to get it together, so those entities would solidify, even after three decades there would be much to be done, especially if the Empire had been an improvement for some worlds (e.g. laid-back governor who got things running and improved things).

The problem with the Disney sequels is that no matter how good someone's version would be we would still know what was going to happen with Luke and Han, and how incompetent Leia became. The only answer is to declare the Disney sequels as garbage that are NOT canon, just bad high-budget fan fiction.
 
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