1187AD Jerusalem to 1187BC

Buba

A total creep
An interesting scenario from AH-com.
Jerusalem stolen from under Salah ad-Din's nose and dumped into the Age of Judges (i.e. tribal caciques, or warbosses if you preffer), immediatelly pre United Kingdom.
If that article is true, then ISOTed folks would NOT be a military power being civilians, children and REMFs.
The numbers look a bit high to me - 5k Moslem slaves freed, 15k Latin Christians enslaved, plus many Latin and non-Latin Christians emigrating or left alone, plus I imagine free Moslems and Jews - there were over 30k people in Jerusalem at that time?
Still, the Uties have steel which should give them an edge (ha! I make pun!) against the Bronze Age folks around them and can loot food. I'd expect some sort of Jerusalem centered polity of the Uties to survive.

This is the time of the Bronze Age Collapse and invasions of Sea Peoples
These are suspected of including a proto-Greek component (maybe a veteran of the conquest of Troi could be found?). Somebody (probably tens of somebodies) in UT Jerusalem must know Greek - could they communicate? Not easy, but with SLOW and LOUD speech and some vigorous arm waving on both sides ...
I suppose same linguistic issues apply to speakers of 12th c AD Arabic and Aramean versus 12th c BC Hebrew and Cannanite? Or would things be easier here? Hebrew is not a spoken language, but would Learned Rabbi's (who know it writing) have it easier when bumping into contemporary Hebrews?
Any Indo-European languages (Turkish, anyone?) aside (maybe) aforementioned Greek are totally useless and will die out inside 2-3 generations. Maybe Latin survives as language of the Latin Church. But the Christian traditions might fuse, ending up with Aramaic as lithurigical language?

Are there any educated people in Jerusalem capable of calculating the date from star positions? Or would the Uties go by the Bible to figure out when they are (I presume c. 500 year accuracy)?
 
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ATP

Well-known member
An interesting scenario from AH-com.
Jerusalem stolen from under Salah ad-Din's nose and dumped into the Age of Judges (i.e. tribal caciques, or warbosses if you preffer), immediatelly pre United Kingdom.
If that article is true, then ISOTed folks would NOT be a military power being civilians, children and REMFs.
The numbers look a bit high to me - 5k Moslem slaves freed, 15k Latin Christians enslaved, plus many Latin and non-Latin Christians emigrating or left alone, plus I imagine free Moslems and Jews - there were over 30k people in Jerusalem at that time?
Still, the Uties have steel which should give them an edge (ha! I make pun!) against the Bronze Age folks around them and can loot food. I'd expect some sort of Jerusalem centered polity of the Uties to survive.

This is the time of the Bronze Age Collapse and invasions of Sea Peoples
These are suspected of including a proto-Greek component (maybe a veteran of the conquest of Troi could be found?). Somebody (probably tens of somebodies) in UT Jerusalem must know Greek - could they communicate? Not easy, but with SLOW and LOUD speech and some vigorous arm waving on both sides ...
I suppose same linguistic issues apply to speakers of 12th c AD Arabic and Aramean versus 12th c BC Hebrew and Cannanite? Or would things be easier here? Hebrew is not a spoken language, but would Learned Rabbi's (who know it writing) have it easier when bumping into contemporary Hebrews?
Any Indo-European languages (Turkish, anyone?) aside (maybe) aforementioned Greek are totally useless and will die out inside 2-3 generations. Maybe Latin survives as language of the Latin Church. But the Christian traditions might fuse, ending up with Aramaic as lithurigical language?

Are there any educated people in Jerusalem capable of calculating the date from star positions? Or would the Uties go by the Bible to figure out when they are (I presume c. 500 year accuracy)?

There were many monks there,so some of them would be scholars.They certainly could read stars.
Hebrew and Greek would be useless - imagine that you try speak with some proto-polish tribesman from 100AD.Mission impossibile.
They must use hand weaving,sorry.

But,their technological edge would be fact - and,more important,calvary.I think that 100 knights could massacre any army which they could face with minimal loses.

More importantly,what next? nobody from their times could beat them or capture Jerusalem walls.After one generation they would rule entire Kingdom,and made it strong before Babylon,Egypt and Assyria become important again.
And,at least for a time,they would have technological edge.

What about 1187AD world with old Jerusalem? Saladin promised capturing something else,not small town without even small jewish temple.
Well,he at least would get Arc of Covenant.
Interesting,how it would influence 1187 AD world.
 

Buba

A total creep
Well,he at least would get Arc of Covenant.
I am not sure whether it was in Jerusalem at that time already. You'd have to check the TL.
But indeed - Saladin getting Jerusalem without the Mosque of the Rock etc. but inhabited by a bunch of pagans (Hebrews were not monotheists yet) would be ... interesting :)
 

Buba

A total creep
Thinking about this further ...
Naturally, Jerusalem establishes a state around itself in order to be fed.
But IMO additionally it will try to reach the sea. And pull a "yo-ho-ho a bottle of rum and a sailor's life fer me!" act, if simply to see with their own eyes how do Italy and France look like. I doubt there being any skilled sailors and shipwrights in The City (although cannot be ruled, I still say unlikely), but the locals still possess some knowledge of what is possible with ships. Hence contact with proto-Phoenicians and or proto-Philistines and or proto-Greeks will be sought.
The Uties know what is out there and might speed up the creation of the Mediterranean Common Market by a few centuries. I'm writing "might" as maybe the Tin Route to Cornwall is already in use? Still, the Uties have geographical knowledge reaching to the edges of the frozen wastelands of the British Isles and Scandinavia, to the verdant forests of Poland or Russia.

But,their technological edge would be fact - and,more important,calvary.I think that 100 knights could massacre any army which they could face with minimal loses.
These are REMFs, with maybe a score of knights (some of which hastily promoted and learning how to shave) in the city. So no thundering charges of masses of heavy cavalry. At least for a few years. But the horses are indeed a game changer, as neither the concept of horseriding or horsecombat have been invented yet (I think). Or horses large enough for that had not been bred yet. Or all of the above :)
AFAIK it is still "chariots for teh win" at this stage:).

Horses would be used for scouting and maybe some small scale combat. Besides mass use of steel in general I suspect that DRUMROLL crossbows will be a Big Thing. And armour. Gambesons with chainmail on top will make the Uties into WH40K Terminators/Mega-armor Nobz equivalents.

I wonder if the ISOT will kill the various abjad scripts, undergoing refinment into Phoenician ATM, strangling their development in their figurative cribs? The Uties do include Arabic and Syriac abjad users, but mostly would be Greek and Latin alphabet users. And the Latin script is used by the ruling class. So, the Downtimers will be introduced to the wonders of having vowels represented in writing. Will they grab it? TBH in OTL they did not ... but that was after a millenia of using their abjads.
Here the ISOT happens more or less at the same moment that the Phoenician abjad is being invented, and thus the developed UT scripts could "overwhelm" it. Do the Deeties outside the kingdom pick up Aramaic/Arabic/Hebrew abjads or the Latin alphabet is an open question, I suppose. The abjads are used for Semtic languages do this day, so they must have something going for them :)
 
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ATP

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Thinking about this further ...
Naturally, Jerusalem establishes a state around itself in order to be fed.
But IMO additionally it will try to reach the sea. And pull a "yo-ho-ho a bottle of rum and a sailor's life fer me!" act, if simply to see with their own eyes how do Italy and France look like. I doubt there being any skilled sailors and shipwrights in The City (although cannot be ruled, I still say unlikely), but the locals still possess some knowledge of what is possible with ships. Hence contact with proto-Phoenicians and or proto-Philistines and or proto-Greeks will be sought.
The Uties know what is out there and might speed up the creation of the Mediterranean Common Market by a few centuries. I'm writing "might" as maybe the Tin Route to Cornwall is already in use? Still, the Uties have geographical knowledge reaching to the edges of the frozen wastelands of the British Isles and Scandinavia, to the verdant forests of Poland or Russia.


These are REMFs, with maybe a score of knights (some of which hastily promoted and learning how to shave) in the city. So no thundering charges of masses of heavy cavalry. At least for a few years. But the horses are indeed a game changer, as neither the concept of horseriding or horsecombat have been invented yet (I think). Or horses large enough for that had not been bred yet. Or all of the above :)
AFAIK it is still "chariots for teh win" at this stage:).

Horses would be used for scouting and maybe some small scale combat. Besides mass use of steel in general I suspect that DRUMROLL crossbows will be a Big Thing. And armour. Gambesons with chainmail on top will make the Uties into WH40K Terminators/Mega-armor Nobz equivalents.

I wonder if the ISOT will kill the various abjad scripts, undergoing refinment into Phoenician ATM, strangling their development in their figurative cribs? The Uties do include Arabic and Syriac abjad users, but mostly would be Greek and Latin alphabet users. And the Latin script is used by the ruling class. So, the Downtimers will be introduced to the wonders of having vowels represented in writing. Will they grab it? TBH in OTL they did not ... but that was after a millenia of using their abjads.
Here the ISOT happens more or less at the same moment that the Phoenician abjad is being invented, and thus the developed UT scripts could "overwhelm" it. Do the Deeties outside the kingdom pick up Aramaic/Arabic/Hebrew abjads or the Latin alphabet is an open question, I suppose. The abjads are used for Semtic languages do this day, so they must have something going for them :)

First country with real calvary was Assyria - but even there it was light horse archers.So yes,Uties would have monopoly on it.
Just like monopoly on good steel - even Hittities,who was just going down,do not have that.

On sea - after discovering that Rome do not exist yet,they would probably focus on Sicilly,and later England.Better take islands then part of continent.

Chariots and armour - greek had bronze plate armours for chariot users,but they were going down,too.
and it is unclear how much bronze plate armour would help them anyway.

Gambestone - crusader infrantry was completly arrow-proof thanks to them.I read fragment of muslim chronicle/translated,of course/ when author was schocked that crusader infrantry could have 20+ arrows sticking from them and still only result was making them more angry during fight.

So,1187BC missile troops could go f**k themsleves with their arrows and stones.

All in all - about 900BC we would have strong crusader Palestine,Sicily,and England.What next?
 

Atarlost

Well-known member
So,1187BC missile troops could go f**k themsleves with their arrows and stones.
Archers are next to useless. Slingers are not. Reduced in effect, yes, but they're still disruptive. An arrow from the bows of the region may only annoy someone in 10th century European armor, but gambeson only does so much for blunt impact. They can probably still break some bones and medieval helmets protect the skull but having your head in a ringing bell isn't good for short term combat effectiveness.

Well, I should say archers are next to useless against 10th century knights acting as heavy infantry. Equine armor is not so developed so they're still useful against cavalry, especially used by Assyrian style horse archers.
 
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WolfBear

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There wouldn't be any way for the 1187 AD people to actually communicate with the 1187 BC people, right? No mutually intelligible languages between these two groups, correct?
 

ATP

Well-known member
There wouldn't be any way for the 1187 AD people to actually communicate with the 1187 BC people, right? No mutually intelligible languages between these two groups, correct?

Indeed.Crusaders would knew hebrew and greek from around 200AD at best/in those times official languages stop changing/
and meet dudes who speak version 1400 years older.
It is as if you try speak with saxon from 600 AD.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Indeed.Crusaders would knew hebrew and greek from around 200AD at best/in those times official languages stop changing/
and meet dudes who speak version 1400 years older.
It is as if you try speak with saxon from 600 AD.

I'm not going to be able to speak with a Saxon from 600 AD lol!
 

ATP

Well-known member
I'm not going to be able to speak with a Saxon from 600 AD lol!
Nor i with some poles tribesman from 600AD.But - it is not big problem.After meeting locals,crusaders would start waving hands and learn language that way.It happened many times in OTL.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Nor i with some poles tribesman from 600AD.But - it is not big problem.After meeting locals,crusaders would start waving hands and learn language that way.It happened many times in OTL.

I don't know just how large the gap is between 600 AD Polish and 21st century Polish, but Old English and present-day English are completely unrecognizable from each other. Just look at Beowulf:

 

ATP

Well-known member
I don't know just how large the gap is between 600 AD Polish and 21st century Polish, but Old English and present-day English are completely unrecognizable from each other. Just look at Beowulf:


I do not knew,too,and never would knew - first known polish sentence is from 13th century.But,i would be unable to talk even with them.
 

Buba

A total creep
Actually the Uties would know c 200BC Greek. The Septuagint, i.e. the Bible translated into Greek by Jews no longer speaking Hebrew nor Aramaic, is used by the Greek Orthodox even today, and apparently understandable.

Off topic - I once read a blog by a Greek (b 1970? 1980?) who tested his comprehension of Old Greek. University education, STEM - no "classics", no Greek Literature etc. The Septuagint was not a problem (not being a Church goer he had little previous exposure to it), Tukidides - he managed quite well, Herodot - not so much, and Homer was Tough, bordering on Total Fail! territory.
 
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WolfBear

Well-known member
Actually the Uties would know c 200BC Greek. The Septuagint, i.e. the Bible translated into Greek by Jews no longer speaking Hebrew nor Aramaic, is used by the Greek Orthodox even today, and apparently understandable.

Off topic - I read a blog by a Greek (b 1980? 1980?) who tested his comprehension of Old Greek. The Septuagint was not a problem, Tukidides - he managed quite well, Herodot - not so much, and Homer was Tough, bordering on Total Fail! territory.

200 BC is still almost 1,000 years away from 1187 BC, though.
 

Buba

A total creep
Oh, yes, with 1000-1500 year drift UT Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, Arabic, Latin or Armenian are definitely not intelligible. Nevertheless they are not starting from zero, as they would be with Etruscan, Turkish, Hungarian, Malay or Chinese.

An interesting titbit I noticed on wiki - Moslems were banned from living in Jerusalem. All the ISOTed Moslems are slaves.
IMO, with no culture&tradition bearing educated class coming along, this as good as kills any chances for Islam as we know it surviving. A group beliving in a single god whose prophet was Mahomet may survive, recreating the Koran and surrounding lore and jurisprudence from memory, but it will bear little resemblance to the Real Thing. Look at crypto Jew or crypto-Christian groups in OTL. And which in most cases enjoyed some measure of contact with the mainstream, or simply started off with as complete communities.
 
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Doomsought

Well-known member
These are REMFs, with maybe a score of knights (some of which hastily promoted and learning how to shave) in the city. So no thundering charges of masses of heavy cavalry. At least for a few years. But the horses are indeed a game changer, as neither the concept of horseriding or horsecombat have been invented yet (I think). Or horses large enough for that had not been bred yet. Or all of the above :)
Horse combat is based on Chariots in this era due to the horse not being able to take riders yet. Horse breeding is serious business, the Chinese went to war with the Greeks around 100bc in order to acquire Greek horse for breeding. The first rideable horses appeared during the Iron age, though which century is hard to pin down, likely due to the obsolescence of the Chariot being both a gradual and regional process.
 
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ATP

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Horse combat is based on Chariots in this era due to the horse not being able to take riders yet. Horse breeding is serious business, the Chinese went to war with the Greeks around 100bc in order to acquire Greek horse for breeding. The first rideable horses appeared during the Iron age, though which century is hard to pin down, likely due to the obsolescence of the Chariot being both a gradual and regional process.

In Assyrian army - but forget when exactly.And even then as light calvary.
 

Buba

A total creep
the Chinese went to war with the Greeks around 100bc in order to acquire Greek horse for breeding.
Are you sure? I thought that it was about some hottie named Helen ...

No matter - we can safely assume that whatever horses there are in the City, these are two thousand years better :)
Besides horseflesh itself there is the very concept of horseback fighting, tack etc.
 

Atarlost

Well-known member
Are you sure? I thought that it was about some hottie named Helen ...
That was the Anatolians not the Chinese, but I haven't ever heard of this Chinese war for horses before and it's the sort of thing I think would come up.
 

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