A discussion on the nuking of Japan

[Spartan303]

"It's up for debate" you say, followed by declaring that the factors justifying your perspective as inherently true. 10/10

I also do quite like this anti-intellectual condescension. It's a good change of pace from the intellectual version.

I do always love going back to work after posting here, I can always trust that I'll come back to everyone sucking each other off.

It's very Greco-Roman of you all. Western civ will live on.

I think you placed far too much faith in intellectuals. I've learned that they're often not quite as on point as they like to think they are.

And no one is agreeing with you Realm because you're just blatantly wrong. On like everything. You take half truths and try to spin a narrative when even a cursory look at a history book would dispel your argument. I don't know if this is intentional or if you really don't know your History. Consider this is educating you.

Especially as your coming at a guy who who has written papers on the very subject and has studied world war 2 extensively. I've also had relatives on both sides of that war.

Yes, you just heard me correctly. I have Japanese ancestry. You wouldn't know it from looking at me, but my maternal Grandmother is from Japan. She lost a Brother, an uncle and her father to the war. And the stories she told me about life in Imperial Japan are not pleasant.

As for the rest of your guttersnipe, take it somewhere else. If you want to debate the war then by all means create a thread and I'll meet you there. But we are getting off topic and I am partially to blame, so I will drop the argument here.

Edit: seems that was already handled.

Edit:

 

[Spartan303]

@Realm I must congratulate you. You derailed me on the subject beautifully. Sure it was to cover your lack of an argument in the Iran debate, but that is beside the point. Your skill in fantasy spinning and pseudo intellectualism completely drew me in as I attempted to shine the light of reality. But it was not to be. For you are truly a master of spinning BS.

I stand in awe of you.

 

[Realm]

@Realm I must congratulate you. You derailed me on the subject beautifully. Sure it was to cover your lack of an argument in the Iran debate, but that is beside the point. Your skill in fantasy spinning and pseudo intellectualism completely drew me in as I attempted to shine the light of reality. But it was not to be. For you are truly a master of spinning BS.

I stand in awe of you.

You know, I think I understand this forum a little better now, it truly feels like every pedantic and likewhoring impulse of white hall distilled into pure right wing politics.

 

[Spartan303]

You know, I think I understand this forum a little better now, it truly feels like every pedantic and likewhoring impulse of white hall distilled into pure right wing politics.

You flatterer.

 

[Realm]

You flatterer.

Depends on your opinion of Whitehall I suppose

 

[Spartan303]

Depends on your opinion of Whitehall I suppose

Understand something, Realm. We have been far kinder to you than Whitehall ever would should you have gone against consensus. I might have given you a little sass but nothing malicious.

Of course I also didn't expect a real debate out of you anyway, so there's that.

 

[Arch Dornan]

Not to the level of Imperial Japan had. Seriously, I made an entire presentation in junior year why the atomic bomb was necessary to end the second world war, lest we invade Japan proper, drag the war on for another year at minimum, and add a million more dead allied soldiers and tens of millions of Japanese citizens and soldiers.

Well yes not to their level since they haven't reached that level and they never will in their situation.

 

[Arch Dornan]

The fact that there is no nuance in wiping innocent civilians off the map, that it was inherently justified for America to do so means Americans don't have enough ability to be critical on the topic of mass murder does mean they shouldn't have the ability to commit mass murder, yes.

Such notions of collateral damage will continue once we're long gone from the past, present and future.

 

[Cherico]

You know, I think I understand this forum a little better now, it truly feels like every pedantic and likewhoring impulse of white hall distilled into pure right wing politics.

Realm, this result is going to happen to you a lot.

Its not because people are ganging up on you its because you have been coddled pretty much your entire life.

You went to ementary school and your beliefs were coddled by left of center polititions, you went to high school and you still got coddled, you went to college were your belifes were not just coddled but actively pandered to and have spent a good chunk of your life on websites where the mods were actively on your side and hamstrung the compitition to your benifit.

You came here and for the first time in your entire life the privaleges you grew up with did not apply.

You put your self up against people who had been through an idological freaking boot camp, and were forced to know their shit or get stomped. The pain your feeling is the pain of you actually being forced to grow as a human being.


Being here will either result in you being banned, you leaving for easier pastures after admitting defeat, you changing your mind or you becoming stronger.

In no circumstances will you remain here and remain exactly the same person.

 

[Realm]

Understand something, Realm. We have been far kinder to you than Whitehall ever would should you have gone against consensus. I might have given you a little sass but nothing malicious.

Of course I also didn't expect a real debate out of you anyway, so there's that.

I haven't had someone say I should be killed if I came close to political power on sb, but what's a little sass between friends I suppose.

I'm a commie dude, I disagree with whitehall consensus pretty often when I actually decide to post, and the level of like whoring shot taking is pretty similar, except over different stuff.

Being here will either result in you being banned, you leaving for easier pastures after admitting defeat, you changing your mind or you becoming stronger.

Thia forum is literally the second option.

 

[Spartan303]

I haven't had someone say I should be killed if I came close to political power on sb, but what's a little sass between friends I suppose.

I'm a commie dude, I disagree with whitehall consensus pretty often when I actually decide to post, and the level of like whoring shot taking is pretty similar, except over different stuff.



Thia forum is literally the second option.

Then I suggest we agree to disagree and call it a day.

 

[Cherico]

I haven't had someone say I should be killed if I came close to political power on sb, but what's a little sass between friends I suppose.

I'm a commie dude, I disagree with whitehall consensus pretty often when I actually decide to post, and the level of like whoring shot taking is pretty similar, except over different stuff.



Thia forum is literally the second option.

If that turns out to be the case then I would be a little sad to see you go.

You unlike quite a few other people I've dealt with actually have potential. Your some one who with a little polish, and some more effort can grow into some one I respect. Being here has been painful for you and it will continue to be painful but its the pain of a good work out, the pain of a training regime.

There is a core of steel inside of you it just needs a good forging to come out.

 

[LordsFire]

@Realm

Are you aware that the Air Force dropped leaflets in Japan before the nuclear strikes, begging the Japanese to surrender, specifically telling the Japanese people that we didn't want to fight them, but their horrible government had to go?

Are you aware that even after both nuclear strikes, officers of the IJA tried to ambush and kill the Emperor of Japan while he was on his way to make the surrender broadcast, because they were not willing to admit defeat?

Are you aware that due to horrific wartime resource mismanagement by the Japanese government, there was a famine underway in Japan by the end of the war, which would have gotten much, much worse if they had kept fighting?

Are you aware of how much the US military helped try to alleviate that famine once the war actually ended?

 

[ShieldWife]

I feel like this has to be debated with quotes and references to historians and credible sources. Otherwise it just a comes off as speculation.

Some of the important questions are these:
• Would Japan have surrendered without the nuclear bombs being dropped or some similar destructive display?
• Would have they accepted a conditional surrender?
• Would a conditional surrender have been an acceptable alternative? Why or why not?
• Would the Soviets have invaded and caused more strife in the region had we not used nukes?
• What would have been the casualties (both sides) had we not dropped the nukes?

By the time we dropped the nukes, WWII had already gone way off the rails in terms of civilian mass murder, in no small part thanks to the Japanese and their treatment of the Chinese. That doesn’t justify mass murdering Japanese civilians, but it does put things into perspective. By the time the war was drawing to a close, we’d actually already killed way more Japanese civilians with conventional bombs than the nuclear bombs killed - like fire bombing Tokyo.

I’m open minded to Realm’s position here, I’m unconvinced. Convince me.

Frankly, anything that saps American power is good.

This is a bad way to start, because it makes it seem like you’re just anti-America instead of concerned about reducing casualties and fostering peace.

We can argue for compassion for Japanese without being anti-American.

 

[Sol Zagato]

If that turns out to be the case then I would be a little sad to see you go.

I think he's saying this forum is an escape from whitehall.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Yes, you just heard me correctly. I have Japanese ancestry.

On behalf of the United States of America, I want to thank you for your service.

I rode Amtrak the other day. Your people did a great job on the railroads.

 

[StormEagle]

The IJA attempted a coup against the emperor who was still nominally the center of Japanese imperial power. After the bombs were dropped.

The IJA was downright insane and had plans to oppose the landing of American troops with civilians armed with bamboo sticks. The casualties that would have been caused by an invasion of the home islands would have been catastrophic for both sides.

This isn’t even getting into the fact that the Japanese were going through a famine at the time and hundreds of thousands if not millions of civilians would have likely starved to death by the time a surrender was forced.

The Soviets, while they had kicked the Japanese out of Manchuria, had little to no amphibious capability to speak of and I find it highly unlikely that the American administration would have helped them on that front.

By the time the Soviets would be capable of landing in the home islands, the American invasion would have been well under way. So I find it unlikely that the Soviets weighed particularly heavy in the Japanese decision making.

The atomic bombs were, ultimately, the least cruel option available if the aim is an unconditional surrender. We could have negotiated, but that would have left the Japanese government and army unpunished for their actions...More so than otl anyways.

An invasion of the home islands could have, and likely would have, lead to an outright genocide of the Japanese people. If not ethnically, than culturally they would have likely never recovered from such an action.

The atomic bombs were cruel. But they were necessary and, ultimately, they saved millions of lives by forcing the Japanese surrender.

 

[Scottty]

Completely understandable, given how short a time it was before the surrender happened.

Nothing really came of it except the whole Kuril Islands dispute between Japan and Russia, but that's a nothingburger in terms of it's real world affects.
The Soviets made a few landings in the Kuril Islands and smashed the Japanese army in Manchuria, but by that point Japan had almost nothing to seriously fight back with except kamikaze units.

On the contrary, is at least one enduring legacy of the Soviet involvement in the Pacific War, which is itself a solid argument that the world might well have been a better place if they'd stayed out:
North Korea.

Thia forum is literally the second option.

If a Sietch - a cave hideout on a desert planet - counts as "greener pastures" then what place did you leave to come here? Mordor? Venus? Io?

Joking aside - yes, this forum is trying to be better than SB. More actual debate between really opposing viewpoints, for example.

Getting back to the OP topic... to make the point I've made elsewhere, the argument always given for the nukes is that they were necessary to bring the war to an end, because the only other option (Operation Downfall) would have been a monster bloodbath invasion.

But there was another option: allowing the Japanese a conditional surrender. That would have ended the war - it just wouldn't have ended it the way that the Allied politicians wanted it to end: with unconditional surrender and every Axis govt figure being tried as war-criminals.

So no, the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki didn't have to be incinerated in order for the war to end. They had to be incinerated so that the Americans could get to hang Tojo.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

The IJA attempted a coup against the emperor who was still nominally the center of Japanese imperial power. After the bombs were dropped.

The IJA was downright insane and had plans to oppose the landing of American troops with civilians armed with bamboo sticks. The casualties that would have been caused by an invasion of the home islands would have been catastrophic for both sides.

This isn’t even getting into the fact that the Japanese were going through a famine at the time and hundreds of thousands if not millions of civilians would have likely starved to death by the time a surrender was forced.

The Soviets, while they had kicked the Japanese out of Manchuria, had little to no amphibious capability to speak of and I find it highly unlikely that the American administration would have helped them on that front.

By the time the Soviets would be capable of landing in the home islands, the American invasion would have been well under way. So I find it unlikely that the Soviets weighed particularly heavy in the Japanese decision making.

The atomic bombs were, ultimately, the least cruel option available if the aim is an unconditional surrender. We could have negotiated, but that would have left the Japanese government and army unpunished for their actions...More so than otl anyways.

An invasion of the home islands could have, and likely would have, lead to an outright genocide of the Japanese people. If not ethnically, than culturally they would have likely never recovered from such an action.

The atomic bombs were cruel. But they were necessary and, ultimately, they saved millions of lives by forcing the Japanese surrender.

Wow, this is all stuff that’s sorta left out of the school history text books which are very much abridged versions even here in the Philippines on what I learned occurred during WWII

Also, can you provide links on the attempted coup/assassinations?

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Being here will either result in you being banned, you leaving for easier pastures after admitting defeat, you changing your mind or you becoming stronger.

Given how you guys are talking about extra history that’s not just stuff we know from abridged versions taught in school

I think we all can learn