ASOIAF/GOT After Sauron’s defeat, he is reincarnated into a baby Joffrey

CarlManvers2019

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What does Sauron do, when he knows he is crown heir and actually the bastard spawn of incest? And that threats exist beyond mortal-ken in this world

Things who are unknown in origin to him as Ungoliant was to Melkor

I presume he uses his knowledge to do a technological renaissance at some point

But what happens to everybody else?
 

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What does Sauron do, when he knows he is crown heir and actually the bastard spawn of incest? And that threats exist beyond mortal-ken in this world

Things who are unknown in origin to him as Ungoliant was to Melkor

I presume he uses his knowledge to do a technological renaissance at some point

But what happens to everybody else?
Does he have his powers or is he just base human with the ability to learn ASOIAF style magic?
 

Lord Sovereign

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I mean, he'd basically be invincible then, barring the direct intervention of one of the setting's gods, who have never stepped in "on camera" up to this point no matter how screwy things got.
Even without them, a master manipulator like Sauron must think he's died and gone to heaven if he's reincarnated into Westeros. So, so many power hungry and vain or honorable to the point of fault fools to be played off against each other. The Starks would essentially be "open season" for him.
 

CarlManvers2019

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Even without them, a master manipulator like Sauron must think he's died and gone to heaven if he's reincarnated into Westeros. So, so many power hungry and vain or honorable to the point of fault fools to be played off against each other. The Starks would essentially be "open season" for him.
And best thing? He doesn't really have to do much to consolidate power? He'd already become king as soon as Robert dies

And before that even happens, he could use whatever influence he has to establish a reputation and gain more wealth than the Iron Throne

Tywin will be blind to the potential great evil his grandson manifests and Tyrion will probably get along well and make use inventions like "binoculars" to better see whorehouses
 

CarlManvers2019

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*looks at the thread title*

But isn't he still a baby?

Unless he's going to be like Boss Baby or something, much of this discussion is premature... no pun intended. 🙃
Yup

Alternatively, him being able to walk and talk results in him growing up rapidly and reaching a much larger height and physique compared to normal humans

He then proceeds to make some men into his “sons” by kidnapping them and experimenting on them till some become a bunch of horrifying ugly looking transhumans of a sort before conquering the Iron Islands

Robert does nothing except feel happy about the new warhammer he was given by his “son”
 
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The Immortal Watch Dog

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Even without them, a master manipulator like Sauron must think he's died and gone to heaven if he's reincarnated into Westeros. So, so many power hungry and vain or honorable to the point of fault fools to be played off against each other. The Starks would essentially be "open season" for him.
I honestly think he'd leave the starks alone, what's the point of running game on a bunch of isolationist simpletons? He needs the North to make war on those quarrelsome ice fairies who fancy themselves more than just a threat to his glorious orderly future of mechanized cities and mad science.

Yup

Alternatively, him being able to walk and talk results in him growing up rapidly and reaching a much larger height and physique compared to normal humans
No, he wouldn't be so unsubtle, if he woke up of Joffrey's body say a few years before the start of the first novel he would begin by penetrating (heh) his "mom's" mind realizing exactly what he is and sighing then slowly modifying his features so that his hair gradually turns darker, his body grows broader and his musculature tightens. He'd likely keep the Tywin facial features via expressions and careful mimicry to convey that he is the best of his grandfather and the best of his "father". Cersei would likely have to go though and I've a feeling that he'd deliberately provoke her in ways that would make even Jaime suspicious of her sanity. he'd position himself to grow closer to his father, taking up martial pursuits, while impressing Pycelle and Stannis with his knowledge of ship building and his keen "sense of justice". Essentially, he'd begin building a coalition around the premise of law and order, you'd likely see him spending more time with Stannis and Renly at Court, sussing out which of the two brother's would make a better second in command (Hint Stannis is gonna be his Witch King)

He'd ingratiate himself to Jon Arryn as well, slowly over the next two years needle his mother and position his father so a broken Cersei eventually has a blowout at some grand feast or another where she accuses Robert of using witchcraft to "steal" her son in a way that implies Jaime cuckolded him.

The scandal shall be enough that the King drinks himself to death that night. Joffrey then has guards seize his mother for infamy, adultery and murder contending that tears of Lys were planted in the wine. He'd then call a council, the usual sycophants would pressure him to appoint Tywin as hand...Stannis would grit his teeth and sneer and accuse Tywin of being part of Cersei's plot as "my nephew is clearly too smart to be manipulated by the old lion". Joffrey, who despite being a minor, with his remarkable persuasion skills is able to convince them all they need to appoint a regent and a Hand but no one man can hold both positions

Stannis gets Handship but the Honorable and just Eddard stark is suggested as a candidate for Regency. Mace Tyrell and Tywin chimp out..to calm them Joffrey offers to Marry Margy(Hey can a human and an ainu produce offsrping as unique as Luthien? LETS FIND OUT! FOR SCIENCE..also..those fantastic assets!) and Tyrion is named master of coin (Joffrey realizes this dude is a danger so keep him close). Tywin is made Master of Laws and he placates his grandfather with a speech about how he is going to transform Westeros into a quiet, ordered, massive Empire and Tywin is the only man he can trust to be the guiding light of civilization..its laws.

Joffrey makes a procession to Winterfell to ask the Warden of the North in person, there he senses the magic in Jons blood and realizes he has found his second future lieutenant. Jon is ordered to come South, where he is legitimized as Jon Starstark or someshit and given lands near Kings landing and likely made commandant of the "Army of the Realm" Stannis Baratheon totally suggests...He'd likely also ennoble Gendry at some point, seeing the blacksmith as useful, inventing some bullshit Baratheon cadet branch lineage for him but that comes later.

Edric Storm is likely fucked though. Once he comes of age, Eddard is rewarded handsomely for his service (Say thousands of tons of cured meats for the coming winter and knowledge of how to build glass and green houses) and Jon stays in the South as Lord commander of the army of the Realm..one which will cause endlessl controversy with the right people while others who should speak up will be pleased with the idea as they believe (Correctly) That Joffrey will use it against foreign lands and not domestically.


People like littlefinger and Varys will realize Joffrey is changed, dangerously so and may try and accelerate their plans...But that is how it begins.

Tommen would be made heir to Casterly Rock with Sansa being betrothed to him...

He then proceeds to make some men into his “sons” by kidnapping them and experimenting on them till some become a bunch of horrifying ugly looking transhumans of a sort before conquering the Iron Islands
No, that comes in the second century of his rule. For now, what they would notice is that the young prince has a keen interest in engineering, metallurgy and animal husbandry and healing sciences.

He likely is able to gain a lot of support in the city guilds and I wager Maesters begin to get paranoid when he starts to write treatises on wound care that are beyond them. He'll more than likely win over Stannis and Ned entirely because of how economical and efficient he is..Tywin's bannermen will find the mines of the west far more efficient and likely become far more loyal to him than to Tywin.

Tywin would eventually have to be dealt with...two incredibly domineering alpha predators in the same room is a no no.

I think Eddard will become suspicious, both for how friendly he is with Jon and how he reacts to the wall because Joffrey will go there and I'd love to see a conversation between him and Maester Aemon or Euron for that matter. But again Joffrey will need him so he'll be placated and subverted.

Westeros begins a gradual shift towards nationalism, the lords would remain as Sauron was keen on improving existing power structures before he went coocoo for cocoa puffs levels crazy. When his autism began to turn into nihilism basically. War with the East is inevitable and I do believe once Daenarys takes Slaver's bay, Joffrey will begin a gradual conquest of the East.


I do think he'll destroy the Red religion, mostly because of PTSD over Numenor and hatred of Eru...he can't kill god but he can "kill" Rh'ollor and the faith of the seven is just too much fun to mock as it reminds him too much of his old bosses.

You wouldn't really see anything truly supernatural from him until the Ice fairies cometh, when Eddard talks of the march on the wall and Sauron/Joffrey is forced to halt his march east to tend to them...Yeah, that's when shit will get wild.


Robert does nothing except feel happy about the new warhammer he was given by his “son”
There's no conceivable way his "parents" survive his 11th Birthday.
 
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CarlManvers2019

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So, what tech would “Joffrey” introduce the fastest?

Will he replace the Feudal System with a sort of Imperial System(not sure what’s the exact difference)due to the presence of what amounts to an army that may work for an “Absolute Monarchy”?

What about the magic of the Planetos? Would he go off to try and study dragons via their bones and eggs? The fact that Valyria’s dragons are probably the by product of biomancy may make him think new creations can be made, similar to how Melkor/Morgoth made dragons
 

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So, what tech would “Joffrey” introduce the fastest?
Metallurgy, he'll be wanting to make pipes for a sewer system for KL. Then likely improvements to the defenses of the city and an expansion of the city itself to give some space to flea bottom and the like.
Will he replace the Feudal System with a sort of Imperial System(not sure what’s the exact difference)due to the presence of what amounts to an army that may work for an “Absolute Monarchy”?
Well he'll create a national army and he'll mark it as designed to address foreign enemies and threats to the realm but not to be used against loyal lords. He'll also start creating policing groups...the big cities like Old Town will definitely get a Shinsengumi like unit out of it. He won't overtly act against the lords, but he will gradually begin centralizing everything with the goal of making them cogs in his machine.

What you might get is something analogous to the Meiji era to post world war 1 Japan. With a bit of the old Feudalism mixed in.

Sauron doesn't need to go the destructive maniac rout here, because he isn't going to face such an immensely stacked deck. SB'ers like to claim its because Westeros is so shitty he'd look like a benevolent ruler even if he showed up as a hideously disfigured 12 foot beastman who just came back from having an Island dropped on him. But that's bullshit...Sauron made an empire of Steve Rogers and King Arthurs become baby burning cultists...The guys capable of depravity no one in Westeros would tolerate.

Shishio from Kenshin though? Yeah'd the smallfolk would fucking love him because of his fetish for social darwinism.

But not Sauron when he's off his meds.

As he was, more subtle and conniving and the like? He doesn't need to be the dark monster he as and he was largely driven to become Morgoth like due to seeing his master relentlessly fail and the insistence on his version of order clashing with divinely supported Free Will.

No such issues here, he'd be a very different beast.

Melkor would Melkor..he'd be a neurotic maniac that would needle the universe until it imploded because he was a basket case from the word go.

Sauron wasn't, he was just basically Stannis Baratheon on steroids if Stannis was a sorcerer and a mad scientist ontop of being LAWWWW autist.

What made Sauron go off the rails at home doesn't exist here..he'd probably just turn Westeros into a new Numenor and begin a ten thousand year long conquest of the rest of the world for "great justice and order"


What about the magic of the Planetos? Would he go off to try and study dragons via their bones and eggs? The fact that Valyria’s dragons are probably the by product of biomancy may make him think new creations can be made, similar to how Melkor/Morgoth made dragons
Hence why he'd take an interest in Jon and Danny and Stannis.

He is still a mad scientist after all

Also he'll need some eternal lieutenants
 

CarlManvers2019

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Hence why he'd take an interest in Jon and Danny and Stannis.

He is still a mad scientist after all

Also he'll need some eternal lieutenants
Aside from her dragons, I don’t think she would be a good leader or good fighter or good military leader

Hell, he might think her a moron, a well intentioned one but still a moron

Though TBF who’d have expected a dumb butcher to murder the advisors she left behind
 

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Rewriting the personality of Princess Daenarys of the House Targayren to suit his needs would be something he could do literally in an afternoon.

He may want to resurrect a modified westerosi strain of Valryian to use instead of orcs
 

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"So, you finally figured it out hmmm?" The voice, the mannerisms, the elegant, serpentine posture, the streaks of black in otherwise long blond hair. It wasn't her son, it couldn't have been her son. she refused to believe it was her son! Oh they all thought he was a magnificent lion, gifted with a stags strength and an eagles wisdom. The eldest, the heir, much to her endless rage as both her father and her royal husband categorically refused her entreaties, dismissed her pleas and outright laughed at her threats and refused to disinherit the boy.

She'd gone as far as implying his bastardry, calling him Joffrey Waters one night when he needled her into reacting. Foolish, she realized. He'd wanted her to react this way, baited her into the slight and when Robert struck her, well. Jaime tried to mediate that dispute but was told to wait outside, the anger present on the faces of both men and when it seemed like they would finally duel.


No, she knew it.

Long before that moment, long before Pycelle's tears of Lys found their way into Robert Baratheon's wine, long before her attempt to have Sandor Clegane turn on the new king. No, she knew her son was not her son when Robert returned from the Greyjoy rebellion and Joffrey, instead of asking if his "father" brought him a present instead flashed a grim smile and said "I wish I could have been there when the towers came down father!"

There were other things of course, how his reactions were that of a well behaved child, to perfectly that of a well behaved child and even when he got up to a little mischief the timing was always..perfect. Her Joff was a little jewel, the perfect, ideal baby but, but this one? His eyes gradually turned blue and everyone dismissed her as delusional, everyone swore they'd always been blue with greenish flecks. NOT SO! Not, so, this was not a child but something that knew how to expertly mimic a child. Other things gave it away of course, its eyes, it had indescribably ancient eyes, cruel eyes, aloof eyes, but how they burned! Those eyes were a horror, how they frightened her so.


"I've always known" she whispered, hating herself for how meek she sounded, lions didn't whisper, lions roared. "Lions don't read, boy's don't play at building castles one moment and play at swords the next. Boy's don't know how to answer every question nor give the perfect excuses when acting out, especially when they get just the right amount wrong"


It laughed, it was a youthful laugh, rich with life and vigor, or at least it sounded like that to anyone but Cersei who heard something else, something timeless, something abominable below it. "You know? That may be the most imbecilic thing I've heard in a long time. I do mean that, you are not your brother or your father, neither of you twins are"

"Don't you dare compare my father to the Imp!"

A sigh escaped its lips followed by "Typical, permit me to explain it better. Neither you nor your twin brother are clever enough to devise some stratagem to interrupt my plans, to think you believed Sandor Clegane and the gold cloaks would be amenable to committing treason on your say so. You're simply stupid, worse you fancy yourself brilliant. i think that's what I find the most insulting about all of this. Being...saddled with you as this body's wretched custodian"

Her eyes widened, he admitted it! He admitted it, relief filled her heart I'm not mad, I'm not mad, father, Jaime, I'm not mad! can't you see?! The relief was soon replaced with grief and she did her best to choke back a sob as she turned to gaze at the...thing...in her son's body. "You will never succeed!"

"Do you even know what it is that I am trying to succeed at?" it asked incredulously, lifting a golden chalice to drink some wine, it was eleven years old and yet conducted itself as a man grown. "Destroy my family, steal my power from me? Ruin my dynasty? kill my children?"

"But I rather like Tommen" It remarked somewhat shocked at the implication, it was odd too for she detected no falsehood in it's tones and she'd grown skilled at deciphering its lies. "And I do mean that, Myceralla as well, they remind me of a pair of heroes I knew once. Both of which vexed me terribly in another life..in another world, another time".

She looked at it...Him..agape in confusion "What?" she hadn't expected the brutal honesty.

It turned, revealing itself to her for the first time, her handsome boy was gone, not even his skin remained. What stood before her was something that had stolen his flesh then by cruel sorcery made it into something else, something not its own yet a part of it.

Gods, he was old, she could see it, handsome, beautiful, sublime, terrifying, what stood before her was art given flesh, sound made solid, the winds of a whisper, the echoes of a chorus, an unknowable, terrible idea that had been conceived in the deepest recesses of a void beyond time, it was energy, it was entropy, it was fire, it was ice. It was wrath, it was charity, it was ingenuity and innovation, invention and ignorance, stagnation and brilliance and an eagerness, a hunger that she couldn't even begin to father and it seemed to her that the whole of the Red-Keep, nay the entire city might burst attempting to contain even a sliver of its trueself. She was horrified, she could feel her sanity slip as she beheld ages, eons upon eons, upon eons of life and thought before time, before earth, before air and fire and ice, and entire ages of war and strife, of the rising and the falling of civilizations, of cruel laughter and wanton destruction, of temples and fire. Of a terrible storm and a fear so all consuming she felt her stomach twist and her heart pound itself against her chest so hard she thought it might tear itself out from her breast.

She saw a fire, a small creature, a ring and an agony she could not fathom, a deep, penetrating loss and a defiant howl before the end.

Then, she saw a light so beautiful it left her with tears and the voice of a disappointed grandfather offering a solution in the vain hope that...through attempting things this..entity's way that it perhaps may learn.

"Game of Thrones? you stupid woman...Who do you think you are dealing with?! Idiot female, I was there when those games were invented! What are you? hmm?! the conceit! That you! A mere invalid would presume play them against one who was there when the first act of treachery occurred? Who brought down an island of holy men whose virtue spanned a planet?! I who stood in the courts of the gods and with his old master helped sway beings beyond your comprehension to turn against their own light? I who was taken in chains before a Divine king only to turn him against the source of his divine right? To the ruin of all! I who made war upon the immortals!" it chuckled and she was vaguely aware of a hand about her throat.

"What...are..you"

It smiled a cruel smile "The same thing Aenar Targaryen was, an exile escaping a doom. Or Aegon the conqueror if you prefer, for like him, I'm keenly aware of how precious second chances are..and how a third chance shall always be a final one" It was the last thing Cersei Baratheon of House Lannister heard.

Before the creature in the skin of her eleven year old son pulled her head clean off her body, the sudden jerk was done with enough precision that most of her spine "slid" out of what used to be her neck along with the head and it was quickly tossed out the window where it would fall down into one of the darker corners of the vast palace and fall into legend. Officially Cersei Lannister will have taken her own life, a botched hanging that decapitated her, in a desperate, last bid to avoid justice.


"You're grinding your teeth again"

"Was that necessary?" the man who came in asked, he was balding prematurely, his neatly groomed chin whiskers giving him the airs of a court minister in Umbar. He came in just in time to see the...toss.

"No" Joffrey conceded, try as he might, he found he couldn't lie to Stannis, the man who reminded him so much of grim Mandos. -Eru and Manwe sent me here that I might learn how to bring order from chaos the right way, I'll not squander it but I'll not let them win either! Not easily any way-

Stannis was his concession to keep himself humble, to remind him not to repeat the same mistakes here.

"Has Lord Stark been notified"

Again with the teeth grinding and "Joffrey" chuckled. "Truly, he'll to be my regent for the next year and then he'll become the First Marshal but you shall be my hand"

"Honorable Ned Stark will never agree to become master of an army of the realm"

"Oh I think he will, you know how convincing I can be" he smiled, he liked this human, which was odd because he would have hated this one in the other life...Hated him for he reminded "Joffrey' too much of friends he'd lost when he followed his need for order, when he fallowed Melkor and perhaps because like Stannis..."Joffrey" believed that things were supposed to be a certain way and that deviation from that was to a degree profane.

"And stop that lord uncle..you can lecture me on kinslaying on the ride North"

"It's not Kinslaying when it's justice" Stannis remarked "but there are ways"

"Joffrey" nodded. "You're right, but I must play the political game for a little bit longer"

"For this you choose Eddard Stark"

"I do, what better way to lure out the old lion and the snakes in Dorne and beyond?"

"hn"

As The "young" King departed Stannis turned "You have used the word Mairon to refer to me before..what does it mean?"

"It's Ashai'i" he lied "It means the enlightened one"

"pretentious" Stannis muttered dismissively an air of derision in his tone as well.

"Not so! You've a keen sense of duty, are adaptive, learn fast and are a relentless leader in war or in the small council. But above all else, you understand the sublime truth. That in order for a realm to harmonious, it must first be just and for it to be just"

"It must be ordered" Stannis put in.

The "boy" smiled. oh the things we will do together you and I, my friend.

@CarlManvers2019 Sum'n like that.
 
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robertliguori

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Yeah, as has been stated, this isn't remotely fair. The thing is, Sauron's smart and patient; unless you're telling this as an epic, his entire childhood will be a succession of just-as-planneds, with him playing the perfect role of the young aspiring king. And that's assuming it's just Sauron's personality in a mortal body. Sauron with any of his actual power can just start setting up Mordor 2.0 and laugh in the face of any who try to stop him.
 

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Asshai'i, I think whatever "shadow people" still live there would like a meeting with this new "player" and to give a bunch of warnings not to think a ruler of primitive hairless apes can beat them

Course, Sauron/Joffrey may point out how he's got one thing they don't, Industry
Or he just turns their brains off? Or mind slaves them? The ice and fire setting at any period Valyria included wouldn't be able to handle lil ol Saruman much less Sauron.

I still remember Leo1s salt about Numenor turning the Freehold onto a hunting range.

Octavians seething butthurt aside Tolkien tends to be one of those settings hard to find a decent match up for. Even with its individual characters.

They either stomp or get their heads kicked in.

Closest I've seen to a real honest debate is putting Lodoss War top tiers against first and second age heroes. That was a 60/40 in favor of either party depeneing on the conditions.

Yeah, as has been stated, this isn't remotely fair. The thing is, Sauron's smart and patient; unless you're telling this as an epic, his entire childhood will be a succession of just-as-planneds, with him playing the perfect role of the young aspiring king. And that's assuming it's just Sauron's personality in a mortal body. Sauron with any of his actual power can just start setting up Mordor 2.0 and laugh in the face of any who try to stop him.
I honestly think he would be a lot more benevolent this time around.

Saurons progression into depraved evil had a lot to do with his crippling neurosis and elStannis style black and white outlook about how things should be.

Mental issues which were exacerbated by external factors that aren't present in this setting. So he might actually live up to the meaning of his valar name which is of course "enlightened, exceptional, generous being".

Because Sauron even while benevolent was oh so humble and totally not a shitposter
 
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CarlManvers2019

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Or he just turns their brains off? Or mind slaves them? The ice and fire setting at any period Valyria included wouldn't be able to handle lil ol Saruman much less Sauron.

I still remember Leo1s salt about Numenor turning the Freehold onto a hunting range.

Octavians seething butthurt aside Tolkien tends to be one of those settings hard to find a decent match up for. Even with its individual characters.

They either stomp or get their heads kicked in.

Closest I've seen to a real honest debate is putting Lodoss War top tiers against first and seconf age heroes. That was a 60/40 in favor of either party depeneing on the conditions.
Honestly, I think lots of people aren't aware of just how powerful the setting is

Maybe not helped if you only ever watched the movies

Also, what about all the implied alien races that may exist here? There are Deep Ones and I think the oily blackstone maybe of interest
 
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