Buffy the Vampire Slayer, a discussion thread and retrospective

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
So, it's been about 22 years since Buffy first aired. Big cultural phenomenon, or so it would seem. I didn't really start watching the show until much later as I was over in Europe for most of the 90's. That said, I will make this a wide open debate/discussion/retrospect, etc. What did people think of the show? What could have been done better? What stood out? What moments were great, and what absolutely sucked? What about the characters? And what about the Buffy "verse" in itself...? And how has the show aged 20 years later...?

Again, open floor discussion, and I'll pipe in my opinions as well.
 

makkapakka

Active member
I rewatched most of it a couple of years ago. The dialogue feels a lot more forced than I remembered it being, but that might just be me getting tired of Whedon-isms and every third line being a quip.

Given the show's feminist reputation, I didn't feel like Whedon's performative faux feminism aged particularly well either.
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
I rewatched most of it a couple of years ago. The dialogue feels a lot more forced than I remembered it being, but that might just be me getting tired of Whedon-isms and every third line being a quip.

Given the show's feminist reputation, I didn't feel like Whedon's performative faux feminism aged particularly well either.

I am mixed about the dialogue. Some of it felt actually quite clever, and had me laughing my ass off....but that seemed to start feeling a bit awkward and forced as the show went on. I agree...the constant existentialist-wannabe Whedonisms did start to wear out after a while. Then again this was the era where we got treated to teens who were always considered themselves more aware of everything than anyone else. :rolleyes: Don't believe me? This is the "Scream" generation (with apologies to the late Wes Craven who I greatly admire) who prided themselves on their pop culture knowledge and it was always about them.

The chemistry of some of the characters, particularly the original cast worked really well: Buffy, Willow, Xander, Cordelia, Giles...and yes, Jenny Calendar (more on her in a minute) worked very well. Oz....he was okay, but he didn't do a lot for me. Maybe it's me, but I really did not see the spark in the Willow/Oz relationship, I always thought Xander really did deserve to be with Willow, and the whole "Willow turning full 180 Gay" felt a bit forced, when turning bisexual would have been more interesting and would have made more sense. Some of the characters they brought in later on was a mixed bag. Tara was...meh. Riley....bland. Spike....bloody awesome. The last bunch of characters they brought in for Season Seven? Just dump them all in a garbage truck and drive it over a cliff.

One character they killed off too early just to get Angel over as a villain (and I'll also get to him) was Jenny Calendar...she had so much damn potential as a gorgeous witch who could be a perfect foil to Giles, and would have been a welcome adult POV on the show, which was lacking with all the teen focus (then again, teen marketing...) and the "all adults are useless idiots" approach....an approach that in retrospect really pissed me off btw. Did it ever occur to the self righteous teens the adults were teens too at one time and some of them might actually have some intelligent advice to offer? I get the feeling Whedon was inserting a LOT of his own personal POV into the show.

As for Angel....ugh. I respect David Boreanaz and he's a great actor and cool guy, but the character of Angel, and then turning evil Angelus by way of a very convenient and rather idiotic "curse" was just...barf. I'd like to know who came up with that moronic idea. Remember kiddies, SEX IS BAD!

As for the faux feminism....I get the whole "girl power" angle, but this felt like it had a lot more to do with Whedon's fixation on young cute girls, if any of the behind-the-set rumors are true...
 

makkapakka

Active member
As for the faux feminism....I get the whole "girl power" angle, but this felt like it had a lot more to do with Whedon's fixation on young cute girls, if any of the behind-the-set rumors are true...
Whedon thinks "strong female character" means literally physical powerful, without really understanding what makes a strong character. That might be okay on its own, but then he refuses to cast women with any actual muscle mass in favour of his 'waif' archetype -- he's got a Thing for tiny hot girls beating people up (look at River from Firefly, or Echo from Dollhouse, as other examples), and gleefully indulges his personal fetish while declaring it feminism.

There's also his really well-documented foot fetish which, once you notice it, you can't unsee in almost everything he's ever done.

Not to mention all the rumored behind-the-scenes creepiness, as you point out.
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
Whedon thinks "strong female character" means literally physical powerful, without really understanding what makes a strong character. That might be okay on its own, but then he refuses to cast women with any actual muscle mass in favour of his 'waif' archetype -- he's got a Thing for tiny hot girls beating people up (look at River from Firefly, or Echo from Dollhouse, as other examples), and gleefully indulges his personal fetish while declaring it feminism.

There's also his really well-documented foot fetish which, once you notice it, you can't unsee in almost everything he's ever done.

Not to mention all the rumored behind-the-scenes creepiness, as you point out.

Yeah, see, I got it with Buffy because it made Buffy come across as a bit more of a rather unexpected heroine, some waif who can literally take on and beat the holy hell out of a thing twice or thrice her size, it works in a tv show where you've got supernatural monsters and assorted mayhem...but then, yeah, he did it again with River, than Echo, and....yeah, I see a trend here. I mean, in anime, it's expected, I get it, but live action, not so much.

As for the foot fetish....I hadn't thought of that, but now I'm not gonna be able to unsee that when I watch an episode if that's true. I don't get foot fetishes, I really don't. I'm an old fashioned "interest in female attributes" kind of guy. :p

The behind the scenes creepiness again...it's harsher in hindsight now, with all the crap that came out of Hollywood. Makes you wonder what was really going on with Sarah Michelle Gellar, Whedon and Eliza Dushku....then again, maybe better not to know. I shudder to think especially in season Seven (which stank just like Season Six) with all the teenage girls galore in that, someone could have easily gotten wrongheaded there.
 

makkapakka

Active member
Yeah, see, I got it with Buffy because it made Buffy come across as a bit more of a rather unexpected heroine, some waif who can literally take on and beat the holy hell out of a thing twice or thrice her size, it works in a tv show where you've got supernatural monsters and assorted mayhem...but then, yeah, he did it again with River, than Echo, and....yeah, I see a trend here. I mean, in anime, it's expected, I get it, but live action, not so much.
Oh, yeah, I definitely get it. There's nothing wrong with the trope.

Even in the sorts of cases like this, where someone is clearly indulging their own fetishes, I don't have any problem with it. If you're a creative and you want to be a bit self-indulgent with it and cater to your own preferences, that's completely fine. If you're actually talented and people like your stuff, you'll get an audience, and people are allowed to like things.

It's dishonestly presenting it as feminism that annoys me. It gets even worse, of course, when you start to hear that he may well have been a predator. Young girls are pretty vulnerable to predators that use shitty virtue-signalling to cover for themselves, luring them in and then if anything comes out or anyone speaks up they have their 'feminist' reputation to hide behind. We see it time and time again in leftist circles.

As for the foot fetish....I hadn't thought of that, but now I'm not gonna be able to unsee that when I watch an episode if that's true. I don't get foot fetishes, I really don't. I'm an old fashioned "interest in female attributes" kind of guy.
Completely agreed here :p
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
The Buffy comics, sadly were worse. I actually went through a few of them....there were a few moments, but the later comics were just painful overall, maybe worse than the last few seasons, I stopped reading them. They just did a "Buffy reboot" with Kaboom comics....and brought Buffy and the gang to the current era. Again....it's a rather mixed bag at best, I stopped reading after the first several issues. The deliberate "wokeness" is plain damn annoying. Comics are bad for you anyway. :LOL:

But getting back to the show....I think the best moments was when Buffy was still in HS, up to the end of Season 3....after that, I think it slowly began to descend and just get more nonsensical. I think it was a really missed opportunity, they could have had her leave Sunnydale and see the world, maybe run into more supernatural goings on besides just demon-this and demon-that, ever notice "demons" were the only real creatures she typically encountered and not very much of anything else? Then again, Sunnydale is a Hellmouth. But they could have really expanded the world in so many more ways, but again granted they also dealt with a finite budget like any other tv series. And then of course there was the spinoff Angel....which again, much as I respect Boreanaz, and I'm sure is an okay show in it's own right, the less I say about it the better.

Season 3 had the "Mayor", who actually really was one of the best villains IMO. Season 4 then had the Initiative....

The Initiative, oh god, where to start? How did Whedon go from a creepy cheerful villain like the Mayor as an antagonist to a bland X-Files ripoff? For any serious military/scifi fiction fans, the Initiative is an example of how NOT to portray a "big bad evil paramilitary organization",
 

TyrantTriumphant

Well-known member
I admit, I've never really watched the series in depth. Most of my experience with it comes from being in the same room while my younger sister watched the show. But I could never get into it because the tactics I saw from the enemies in that just seemed so incompetent. I kept thinking to myself, why don't the vampires/demons/mayors just put a bomb in her car, or set her house on fire while she's sleeping, or do a drive by shooting?

Perhaps this is unfair, but I kept comparing the vampires in that to the ones in VTM, which I was in a campaign of at the time, and they just seemed so pathetic by comparison.

Then again maybe I only saw the episodes where the villains were having an off day and I'm missing a lot. I doubt it though.
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
I admit, I've never really watched the series in depth. Most of my experience with it comes from being in the same room while my younger sister watched the show. But I could never get into it because the tactics I saw from the enemies in that just seemed so incompetent. I kept thinking to myself, why don't the vampires/demons/mayors just put a bomb in her car, or set her house on fire while she's sleeping, or do a drive by shooting?

Perhaps this is unfair, but I kept comparing the vampires in that to the ones in VTM, which I was in a campaign of at the time, and they just seemed so pathetic by comparison.

Then again maybe I only saw the episodes where the villains were having an off day and I'm missing a lot. I doubt it though.

I played VTM in college and also a little during my time in uniform, so I know what you mean. :devilish: I think that's kind of what killed my opinion of a lot of the baddies as they just seemed like extras from a Halloween theme party. I know the producers of the show had only so much of a budget to work with, but jeez. That and as you stated, they weren't very competent.

I mean, a lot of the vampires, to use VTM terminology, were just like a bunch of thin-blooded caitiffs. Sheesh, bring in some bloody (no pun intended) 6th or 7th generation Kindred and let them terrorize the Slayer and her friends for a spell...actually, that might be too harsh. :LOL:

Now, there were a few standouts. I thought the "Gentlemen" from the episode "Hush" were actually pretty effective and damn horrifying, kudos to whoever came up with that one.

141211hush1.jpg


I think besides the point of making some of the bad guys more competent, showing the vampires for example with actual supernatural abilities would have been, ironically, far more convincing. Heck, take another cue from the World of Darkness setting and expand the world so there's other types of supernatural beings besides just demons and "Powers that Be", which IMO felt like a rather lazy catch-all phrase. I dunno, I admit I feel, frustrated, like there's so much further they could have gone with this show...but they didn't. They had great characters, they had a base they could have expanded on...such as why the Slayer in the first place? Why "one girl in every generations"?? Why did it have to be one girl to begin with? Was there originally other Slayers, heroes, mystical users/witches that might have aided the fight besides just the "one"? The mention of "Slayers must always act alone" makes ZERO bloody sense as that's a surefire and idiotic way to get your Slayer killed...and then you have to train another one, AGAIN.

And speaking of Slayer's equipment....can anyone explain to me the obscene lack of any modern firearms in the show? The proper and effective use of firearms with the right ammunition could be such a useful card, if not a game changer for Slayers and their Watchers....and yet it's 1998, and here they are using medieval weapon mockups. 😦
 

makkapakka

Active member
I agree with the general competence level of the bad guys being pretty poor, but honestly that's par for the course for any TV series of the era so I don't really hold it against Buffy specifically that much.


Heck, take another cue from the World of Darkness setting and expand the world so there's other types of supernatural beings besides just demons and "Powers that Be", which IMO felt like a rather lazy catch-all phrase.
Not sure what you mean here -- there are plenty of different supernatural beings in Buffy, and far more variety than in the World of Darkness setting. I don't think the "Powers that Be" are even referenced in Buffy at all -- they were a thing in the Angel spinoff. 'Demon' is used as shorthand for any extraplanar creature (of which there is a massive variety), there's a werewolf as part of the cast for a while, witches and other magic users, ghosts and spirits, zombies, mummies, deities, etc. There were loads of one-off monsters that weren't demons, too, like the Preying Mantis lady. Also humans with unexplained superpowers, cyborgs and androids and stuff, for a less supernatural type of variety. This is a weird complaint.

why the Slayer in the first place? Why "one girl in every generations"?? Why did it have to be one girl to begin with?
The origins and why of the Slayer are explicitly laid out in the later seasons of the show.

And speaking of Slayer's equipment....can anyone explain to me the obscene lack of any modern firearms in the show? The proper and effective use of firearms with the right ammunition could be such a useful card, if not a game changer for Slayers and their Watchers....and yet it's 1998, and here they are using medieval weapon mockups. 😦
I think the Watsonian explanation is that firearms attract a lot of attention -- gunshots are loud, and you do actually see the main cast pull out modern weapons when they feel they have to (Buffy literally blows a powerful demon up with a rocket launcher stolen from the military in season 2). Of course, later in the series you do start seeing guns far more often, though usually used by bad guys or the Initiative (the anti-supernatural military branch).
 
Last edited:

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
I agree with the general competence level of the bad guys being pretty poor, but honestly that's par for the course for any TV series of the era so I don't really hold it against Buffy specifically that much.



Not sure what you mean here -- there are plenty of different supernatural beings in Buffy, and far more variety than in the World of Darkness setting. 'Demon' is used as shorthand for any extraplanar creature (of which there is a massive variety), there's a werewolf as part of the cast for a while, witches and other magic users, ghosts and spirits, zombies, deities, etc. Also humans with unexplained superpowers, cyborgs and androids and stuff, for a less supernatural type of variety. This is a weird complaint.


The origins and why of the Slayer are explicitly laid out in the later seasons of the show.

I think the Watsonian explanation is that firearms attract a lot of attention -- gunshots are loud, and you do actually see the main cast pull out modern weapons when they feel they have to
(Buffy literally blows a powerful demon up with a rocket launcher stolen from the military in season 2). Of course, later in the series you do start seeing guns far more often, though usually used by bad guys or the Initiative (the anti-supernatural military branch).


You do have a point about the variety of beings actually. I suppose it would have been nice to see the overall mythology of said beings expanded on in this verse and how they relate/interact (or don't) with the other beings in the verse, but that would have taken up more screentime. "Demons" was kind of a catch-all that they used...I suppose that annoyed me as I felt it was used a tad more generally than it should have, but eh, that's just my personal quibble.

You are right, they did lay out the origins of the Slayers in the later seasons, I'll have to go back and rewatch again. What I do remember is that it left me feeling kind of underwhelmed though.

I do remember the rocket launcher from season 2 (looked like a souped-up AT4), that was a neat bit. I just hope someone shouted "BACKBLAST CLEAR!" before Buffy fired it. :p
 

Abhorsen

Local Degenerate
Moderator
Staff Member
Comrade
Osaul
And speaking of Slayer's equipment....can anyone explain to me the obscene lack of any modern firearms in the show? The proper and effective use of firearms with the right ammunition could be such a useful card, if not a game changer for Slayers and their Watchers....and yet it's 1998, and here they are using medieval weapon mockups. 😦
So watsonianly, a number of reasons.
1) institutional inertia, of an institution that has lasted centuries. This exaggerates the effects of other problems
2) Watchers wanting control over Slayers, and want an advantage if they need to face them
3) They historically haven't been useful.
-a) First, they just don't do much to vampires and many demons, hence the use of crossbows
-b) Up until the repeating pistol, they weren't all that practical in a fast-paced close quarters urban environment
3) A slayer with a gun isn't significantly better than a normal with a gun, so there is comparative advantage to solving gun-solvable problems yourself, and have the slayer take care of the harder stuff.
4) Don't give vamps good ideas
5) Do slayer skills at weapons even apply to guns?
 

Spartan303

In Captain America we Trust!
Administrator
Staff Member
Founder
Osaul
Whedon thinks "strong female character" means literally physical powerful, without really understanding what makes a strong character. That might be okay on its own, but then he refuses to cast women with any actual muscle mass in favour of his 'waif' archetype -- he's got a Thing for tiny hot girls beating people up (look at River from Firefly, or Echo from Dollhouse, as other examples), and gleefully indulges his personal fetish while declaring it feminism.

There's also his really well-documented foot fetish which, once you notice it, you can't unsee in almost everything he's ever done.

Not to mention all the rumored behind-the-scenes creepiness, as you point out.

Had a cousin who worked with props behind the scenes. Joss did a lot of shady shit. From sleeping with at 2 of the female casts, to lying and outright mistreating and abusing them.

When I talked to Nicholas Brenden late last year, he was very cagey on the subject but I was able to pin him down on a few things. For instance, did you know that Wesley's arc of turning into a gruff badass was supposed to be Xanders? The writer left for Angel and took that idea with him after Joss shot it down repeatedly. Joss felt That Xander, a guy with no powers who became a badass and success at life, would overshadow Buffy and the other girls who did have powers. So since this was a girl powered centric show, they couldn't have that and so kept Xander from any true growth as a fighter and all around badass.

Or how about Season 7 where Buffy and Xander were supposed to make a go of it. Sara was skeptical on doing a 7th season and was exhausted from working 15 to 18 hour days. She was also recently married to Freddie and didn't get to spend much time with her Husband. Not to mention she HATED Season 6 with a passion. She felt it was too degrading with the whole twisted Spuffy thing. So Nick came to her with an idea for season 7 a sort of 'Bringing Buffy back in to the light' after the darkness of season 6. Part of that was Buffy and Xander getting together and becoming a couple. This then has a positive effect on her and we see a much more positive and upbeat Buffy who becomes a big sister to the new Slayers. The one who had 'been there and done that.' Not 'General do as I say not as I do' Buffy.
Sara liked it and they both approached Joss about it. He said he liked it and if they signed on for Season 7 he'd look into it. They signed on since they trusted him. Not a week later Joss went back on his word and we got Season 7 as it is today. Why do this? The Spuffy fans. Ratings for Buffy had been shaky after season 6. The show had been on for a long while so it's hard for many to stay invested. And while Grim dark worked for a bit, ultimately it's not sustainable. So Joss does what he does best and doubles down. And if course Season 7 is almost universally hated by the fanbase. But it goes deeper than that.

Then there was Charisma Carpenter unexpectedly getting Pregnant in Season 4. There are some very dark rumors on this one, none of which can be confirmed. But ultimately they had rewrite season 4 on the fly to work around Charisma Carpenters Pregnancy. Hence why Season 4 AtS is so hated. This led to some bad blood between the two and Charisma left the show. Later on, Joss apparently came back to her and tried to make peace and promised to give Charisma's character a prproper send off. And once filming was done a d he got what he wanted he promptly fired her and then wrote the part of her dying and becoming a higher being after the fact.

Those are just some of the ones that were confirmed. But the rumors? They paint a far worse picture.
 
Last edited:

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
Wow....it’s worse than i thought then if that’s true. I like to believe one should enjoy shows for what they are, but this really paints a lot of things in a far different perspective now, and makes watching some of these episodes a lot harder now, sheesh. Dare i ask what else was going on?
 

Spartan303

In Captain America we Trust!
Administrator
Staff Member
Founder
Osaul
Wow....it’s worse than i thought then if that’s true. I like to believe one should enjoy shows for what they are, but this really paints a lot of things in a far different perspective now, and makes watching some of these episodes a lot harder now, sheesh. Dare i ask what else was going on?

Notice how SMG, Nick and many others he's worked with didn't come to his defense when his wife told the truth on him. Really telling there.
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
When I talked to Nicholas Brenden late last year, he was very cagey on the subject but I was able to pin him down on a few things. For instance, did you know that Wesley's arc of turning into a gruff badass was supposed to be Xanders? The writer left for Angel and took that idea with him after Joss shot it down repeatedly. Joss felt That Xander, a guy with no powers who became a badass and success at life, would overshadow Buffy and the other girls who did have powers. So since this was a girl powered centric show, they couldn't have that and so kept Xander from any true growth as a fighter and all around badass.

And now I'm starting to understand a little more why there were a lot of fanfics out there that turned Xander into a lean mean fighting/killing machine. It was a pretty obvious response to the fact they just kept Xander around as the eternal punching bag. "Oh no, this is a feminist show, we can't have strong MALE characters, evil patriarchy!" It's why Giles often got reduced to a stuttering side character even though he had the potential to be quite the strong male character in his own right. It's why Riley was such a bland Iowa corn-poke character, or that Angel was well...Angel (his character seemed to get better once he got his own show from what I saw of AtS). Spike was fun...until that whole damn fucked-up bit in Season 6.

You had to feel bad for Xander though....they wouldn't let him mature, grow up, be able to stand on his own two feet...in the end he became a caricature. One has to really wonder how Nicholas Brendon felt about all that. Then again, looking at what happened to Buffy's character overall in Season Six and how Sarah Michelle Gellar clearly felt about that, yeesh.

Again, maybe I just don't get it....I still don't get "why" you have to make the males look like idiots to put over females to have a "feminist" show, hell, it's the same crap that's been going on now again with some of the terrible offerings Hollywood has put out tv, both on the big screen and small screen, but what makes it all worse was when it was clearly Whedon more indulging in his personal fetishes than anything else, among other things. They're worried that the male leads might outshine the female leads, but really if they're that worried? Then that clearly marks that someone's insecure or narcisstic about something, or maybe the main protagonist isn't quite as powerful or great as some may want her to be.


BTW, for the record, I want to say I am thankful we can have an open discussion like this. Try having this sort of discussion with your typical BTVS fanboy/fangirl or "Whedonphile"...it seems to want to go fairly downhill quick.
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
So watsonianly, a number of reasons.
1) institutional inertia, of an institution that has lasted centuries. This exaggerates the effects of other problems
2) Watchers wanting control over Slayers, and want an advantage if they need to face them
3) They historically haven't been useful.
-a) First, they just don't do much to vampires and many demons, hence the use of crossbows
-b) Up until the repeating pistol, they weren't all that practical in a fast-paced close quarters urban environment
3) A slayer with a gun isn't significantly better than a normal with a gun, so there is comparative advantage to solving gun-solvable problems yourself, and have the slayer take care of the harder stuff.
4) Don't give vamps good ideas
5) Do slayer skills at weapons even apply to guns?

So, hopefully on a lighter note:

1. Definite institutional inertia, the Watcher's Council was definitely a "tied to the horse and buggy" kind of group...which makes you wonder how the hell they lasted this long. But hey, Whedon-logic.

2. That would make sense, again, Evil Patriarchy (TM).

3. Well, firearms has been an evolutionary process. Indeed, until repeating firearms came into existence they weren't all that useful for CQB. But even then, once firearms technology began to mature, rushing to go hand-to-hand was slowly starting to go the way of the dodo just like horse cavalry. But now with modern automatic weapons? Ignore them in CQB scenarios at your peril. The Watcher's Council apparently does, but again this probably ties into the previous point about them. And they can be useful against certain types of creatures, vampires included, depending if they are sensitive or vulnerable to certain materials that can be packed into ammunition, whether that be garlic essence, silver, mercury, wood shavings, etc. And yes, I know making silver ammunition is a LOT harder than it actually sounds, but it is possible. Then of course, there's incendiary ammunition, explosive, etc. depending on what caliber/mm you're using, or shotshell.

4. Firearms are tools. They don't necessarily make the Slayer better, but it is an additional useful card in the deck she can use to her benefit. Plus....MORE DAKKA. :p

5. But you WANT to give vampires good ideas, if not horrific ideas, admit it. :LOL::ROFLMAO: But it's inevitable....sooner or later, one of the undead will have a lightbulb go off in his/her head.

6. Do Slayer's skills apply to firearms? Well....that IS something to ponder and discuss, isn't it?
 

Spartan303

In Captain America we Trust!
Administrator
Staff Member
Founder
Osaul
And now I'm starting to understand a little more why there were a lot of fanfics out there that turned Xander into a lean mean fighting/killing machine. It was a pretty obvious response to the fact they just kept Xander around as the eternal punching bag. "Oh no, this is a feminist show, we can't have strong MALE characters, evil patriarchy!" It's why Giles often got reduced to a stuttering side character even though he had the potential to be quite the strong male character in his own right. It's why Riley was such a bland Iowa corn-poke character, or that Angel was well...Angel (his character seemed to get better once he got his own show from what I saw of AtS). Spike was fun...until that whole damn fucked-up bit in Season 6.

You had to feel bad for Xander though....they wouldn't let him mature, grow up, be able to stand on his own two feet...in the end he became a caricature. One has to really wonder how Nicholas Brendon felt about all that. Then again, looking at what happened to Buffy's character overall in Season Six and how Sarah Michelle Gellar clearly felt about that, yeesh.

Again, maybe I just don't get it....I still don't get "why" you have to make the males look like idiots to put over females to have a "feminist" show, hell, it's the same crap that's been going on now again with some of the terrible offerings Hollywood has put out tv, both on the big screen and small screen, but what makes it all worse was when it was clearly Whedon more indulging in his personal fetishes than anything else, among other things. They're worried that the male leads might outshine the female leads, but really if they're that worried? Then that clearly marks that someone's insecure or narcisstic about something, or maybe the main protagonist isn't quite as powerful or great as some may want her to be.


BTW, for the record, I want to say I am thankful we can have an open discussion like this. Try having this sort of discussion with your typical BTVS fanboy/fangirl or "Whedonphile"...it seems to want to go fairly downhill quick.


I'm a fan of Buffy too. Shocking, I know. But I love the characters and how flawed they are, yet they keep trying and fighting the good fight. Something about that speaks to me. But there is a lot about the show that I find objectionable.

As for Nicky, yeah he was frustrated. He didn't come right out and say it but the way he would pause and try to frame his position, you could tell. I was with a group of 12, and I was the only one asking these kinds of questions. You should have seen the look on the faces of some of the people there. They went stark white. Cause Nick was giving me these looks like 'You know more than you're letting on', and I kept trying to pin him down on a position.

When he said, "This is stuff I never wanted to really talk about, but okay" I knew I had him. The others? They shut up and leaned in.

One thing I didn't know was that Joss was sort of indirectly responsible for Nick getting into drugs and Alcohol. Nick...has some mental trauma from his younger life, stuff I won't go into. But in order to help combat it he turned to athletics and working out. Getting that endorphin rush from a hard post workout really helped him. Him and David Boreanaz used to work out all the time back when they were friends.

Then came the Swim Team episode. And man did the ladies of BTVS really take notice of him. Suddenly the ladies are asking why Xander and Buffy aren't a thing. He's fit, he's hot, so why not? Joss hated it. Female attention wasn't supposed to be on Xander. The focus was supposed to be the 'true love story romance' (Read emotionally manipulative and abusive relationship) of Buffy/Angel. It was supposed to be the focus. So they covered Xander up in very baggy and very unflattering and flamboyant Hawaiian shirts to make the ladies forget. It worked. Then came season 5. Nick was getting bigger, and not in the waist. If you notice, by season 5 the dude is Fit like a Fitness model. And then there are those episodes of him in a wife beater. Suddenly the ladies are swooning for him again. Can't have that, so they told Nick he had to stop working out altogether.

Nicks muscle turned to flab, he started having depression issues and health problems. I mean, he really started getting depressed. So he turned to alcohol, and then later drugs. After the show ended he hit em hard too, as in going into overdrive.

So yeah, he was frustrated. He has mixed feelings on Joss.
 

Spartan303

In Captain America we Trust!
Administrator
Staff Member
Founder
Osaul
1) institutional inertia, of an institution that has lasted centuries. This exaggerates the effects of other problems

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. This seems to be the Watcher motto. We know that Stakes, crossbows, holy water and sunlight work. 'Guns' actually do work on vampires just fine, its just that the ammunition doesn't work so well on them. Find a way to make a wooden bullet, or something like Underworld; replace the silver nitrate rounds with holy water. Yeah, that would work. But The Council think in terms magic and the occult. This is an occult problem So it thus requres an occult solution. Modern solutions tend to involve guns and explosives. They can work but are too messy and too public and would draw the wrong attention. And both sides of the fight are interested in maintaining the masquerade...until someone tries to end the world, that is.

2) Watchers wanting control over Slayers, and want an advantage if they need to face them

Aside from the 'Evil White Male Patriarchy' tropes they were using even back in that day, how the Watchers did things made a certain kind of sense. They were the ones with the intelligence on the enemy and the knowledge on how to fight them. The Slayer would more often than not just rush in with a pointy stick and hope for the best...and often times it didn't end so well for her. So, logically, the Watchers had to exert a form of authority over the Slayer in order to ensure she didn't die too soon.

3) A slayer with a gun isn't significantly better than a normal with a gun, so there is comparative advantage to solving gun-solvable problems yourself, and have the slayer take care of the harder stuff.

Disagree. A Slayer with a gun is a super soldier looking for a target. Their reflexes and speed are quicker than a normal person. Train them on a gun and they'll do shit that makes Jon Wick and John Preston blush in embarrassment. But then we go right back to the ammunition argument.

4) Don't give vamps good ideas

Trick didn't need much prompting. He was 'The Modern day Vampire' and he went to Modern day solutions. Which meant guns. He was an awesome villain. Shame about the way he went out.




5) Do slayer skills at weapons even apply to guns?

Slayer skills apply to any weapon they can get their hands on and train with. Buffy was decent with a sword despite never having held one (Season 1 I believe). The instinctive memory of past Slayers helping her greatly. But once she started training with Giles she grew by leaps and bounds. Slayers take to training and conditioning like Fish do to water. They're naturally good at it because they have to be. If they're not, then they're dead. Simple as that.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top