CGI Anime; Why would anyone insist on it?

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
I don’t know if you guys saw Berserk 2016/2017 and Kengan Asura 2019/2020’s adaptations

But I really gotta question as to why people in charge would insist on the use of CGI even if people say what they saw sucked
 

gral

Well-known member
I don’t know if you guys saw Berserk 2016/2017 and Kengan Asura 2019/2020’s adaptations

But I really gotta question as to why people in charge would insist on the use of CGI even if people say what they saw sucked
When I went deep into the anime hobby, in the late 90's, all or the absolute majority of credited names at the endings were Japanese. By the late 2000's, the animation sections were getting filled with South Korean names. Nowadays, you have Chinese names in a lot of animation credits. Eventually the studios will run out of cheap sources for the army of drawers you need to run an old-fashioned animation studio.

Even though a lot of CGI animation sucks when compared with hand-drawn anime(although many times you have some real monstrosities in those as well), buying a mainframe and having it do the job pays itself back after not too much time. And that's why people will insist on doing CGI. In fact, I'd say that unless the anime industry doesn't change radically, we'll see before the end of our lives almost all anime being entirely CGI animation(maybe even in 10-15 years).
 

LifeisTiresome

Well-known member
I don’t know if you guys saw Berserk 2016/2017 and Kengan Asura 2019/2020’s adaptations

But I really gotta question as to why people in charge would insist on the use of CGI even if people say what they saw sucked
I believe its cause anime is now suffering from its own success. More and more anime come into being which needs more drawers and anime is not cheap to produce hence they will only hire cheap workers and when that pool dries up, they need to get people from outside to do it or push for policy to get immigrants so they will do it or just use CGI.
 

gral

Well-known member
I believe its cause anime is now suffering from its own success. More and more anime come into being which needs more drawers and anime is not cheap to produce hence they will only hire cheap workers and when that pool dries up, they need to get people from outside to do it or push for policy to get immigrants so they will do it or just use CGI.

In part yes, but even when anime was rising in popularity in the very early 2000's, the industry was already moving to cut expenses and 'risk'; biggest example in my mind is the fact that in the early 2000's, the average anime had 26 episodes, and Bandai launched a 52-episode mecha anime(Gundam or not) per year. Nowadays, about the only anime with guaranteed full-year runs are either shounen blockbusters(Boruto, the Inuyasha sequel that started this month), or the annual PreCure series(and until when will that go on?). Even Gundam went for 25-26 episode seasons. Plot variety also dropped; you had anime that pandered to a specific demographic back then, but it wasn't as dominant as it is today.
 

LifeisTiresome

Well-known member
In part yes, but even when anime was rising in popularity in the very early 2000's, the industry was already moving to cut expenses and 'risk'; biggest example in my mind is the fact that in the early 2000's, the average anime had 26 episodes, and Bandai launched a 52-episode mecha anime(Gundam or not) per year. Nowadays, about the only anime with guaranteed full-year runs are either shounen blockbusters(Boruto, the Inuyasha sequel that started this month), or the annual PreCure series(and until when will that go on?). Even Gundam went for 25-26 episode seasons. Plot variety also dropped; you had anime that pandered to a specific demographic back then, but it wasn't as dominant as it is today.
For the dominant anime thing, like some time ago, all we had was moe anime aka cute girls doing cute things. Now we have isekai. I mean, isn't this season having less isekai? Thats what I have heard which means that isekai being dominant will be over sooner or later and another trend takes over.
 

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
In part yes, but even when anime was rising in popularity in the very early 2000's, the industry was already moving to cut expenses and 'risk'; biggest example in my mind is the fact that in the early 2000's, the average anime had 26 episodes, and Bandai launched a 52-episode mecha anime(Gundam or not) per year. Nowadays, about the only anime with guaranteed full-year runs are either shounen blockbusters(Boruto, the Inuyasha sequel that started this month), or the annual PreCure series(and until when will that go on?). Even Gundam went for 25-26 episode seasons. Plot variety also dropped; you had anime that pandered to a specific demographic back then, but it wasn't as dominant as it is today.

Risk

Now that I think about it, Kengan Asura and Berserk may have the problem of being “obscure” or “niche” even if the latter’s long running and has much fanart and fanbase(little in the way of fanfics though)

Kengan Asura/Omega has little reputation admittedly
 

gral

Well-known member
For the dominant anime thing, like some time ago, all we had was moe anime aka cute girls doing cute things. Now we have isekai. I mean, isn't this season having less isekai? Thats what I have heard which means that isekai being dominant will be over sooner or later and another trend takes over.
What I meant that even what was trendy then(and I mean 20 years ago) wasn't as dominantly present like the cute girls doing cute things fad(started by K-On! and which hasn't quite gone yet, although it's less dominant), or the little sister fad(started by OreImo, which also gave us the dubious joys of paragraph-long light novel titles) were at their heights.
 

Shipmaster Sane

You have been weighed
In fact, I'd say that unless the anime industry doesn't change radically, we'll see before the end of our lives almost all anime being entirely CGI animation(maybe even in 10-15 years).
The anime industry existing in anything resembling it's current form at the end of this lifetime? Ugh, what a pessimistic view you have of the future.
 

Shipmaster Sane

You have been weighed
When you say nightmare, do you mean how they treat their workers?
In many ways I mean it, it is an unhealthy and unsustainable field of business, that in the overwhelming majority produces garbage while drowning anything of value, their treatment of their workers turns an art trade into an endless funeral march, etc etc.
 

LifeisTiresome

Well-known member
In many ways I mean it, it is an unhealthy and unsustainable field of business, that in the overwhelming majority produces garbage while drowning anything of value, their treatment of their workers turns an art trade into an endless funeral march, etc etc.
Fair enough

What I meant that even what was trendy then(and I mean 20 years ago) wasn't as dominantly present like the cute girls doing cute things fad(started by K-On! and which hasn't quite gone yet, although it's less dominant), or the little sister fad(started by OreImo, which also gave us the dubious joys of paragraph-long light novel titles) were at their heights.
Whats wrong with the long light novel titles? They can be hilarious or memery in their own way. But I'm not sure about the not as dominant as I remember everything for anime at least was cute girls doing cute things.

Could just be that I didn't pay as much attention.

My grandfather used to say that a pessimist is a well-informed optimist. As it stands now, the anime industry will come to a collapse, but I dare not guess when.
Do elaborate on how you feel it will collapse. I'm genuinely curious. You said that you felt it will all be CGI eventually. Is that what you mean by collapse?
 

gral

Well-known member
Do elaborate on how you feel it will collapse. I'm genuinely curious. You said that you felt it will all be CGI eventually. Is that what you mean by collapse?

No, it's not what I meant by collapse, although it may be a symptom of impending collapse. Without really reflecting and doing research on it, I can see two mechanisms for an anime industry collapse, which would combine and feedback each other:

- The sectors of it who get the short stick decide it's a sucker's game to play and vote with their feet: As I understand it, anime are funded by what is called project financing; a corporation(for instance, Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica's Madoka Project) is created which goes on to hire animation studios, voice actors, and so on. This is a common way of funding infrastructure and potentially risky projects, and it gets you the following(among other) consequences:

1) Loans and financing are based on the financial assets and liabilities of the recently-created corporation, not on the parent corporation's ones. This means that any financial problems the parent corporation(s) may have do not factor in the decision to fund the project(risk reduction). It also means that, if the project fails, liability won't extend to the parent corporation(s)(again, risk reduction; the most important component of it, actually);

2) The animation studios and the companies who will produce the anime won't be involved in the funding part of it. While this means funding for the future anime is easier(as most animation studios and so on tend to be quite risky companies to invest in, being comparatively small and usually living from project to project), and it shields these companies from the risk of the anime bombing, it also means they will merely receive a fee from it; any profits go to the project corporation and from there to the financial backers. And so, the companies that do the production work won't be threatened by the failure of the project, but at the same time, will almost never grow into a position where they could survive such a failure.

So, in one side we have financial backers, who due to the way anime financing is done, keep getting most of the money, and the production companies, which tend to be small and have only contract relations with the anime projects. Should the financial realities determine cost of production is too high, where will the money squeeze likely hit? The answer seems to be obvious. When Shirobako was released, a picture was floated around showing salaries for different jobs in the industry, and it was what you would expect. And that was merely for an animation studio, it didn't even go into what the guys on the financial backing companies would earn.

Now, what I'm saying is merely the world as it is, he who pays the piper gets to choose the tune and all that. But how long until the ones who get the smallest salaries(and usually the lion's share of the backbreaking work and extra work hours) decide it's simply not worth it to work on this, even though they love doing it, anymore? How long until companies decide it's not worth it staying open(or worse, aren't able to)? This ties into the other mechanism, which I have already touched upon;

- The quest for reducing cost is unending; possible areas of improvement on that aren't: No matter what, there will always be calls for reducing cost, which will result in an ever-growing squeeze on the weaker sectors of the industry. Thus, an anime industry that wholeheartedly moves into CGI could be an indication that it's not economically viable to have human animators any more - but CGI also has its limits. How long until 3D computing isn't cheap enough for the industry? The obvious answer in that case would be recreating the armies of animators - but that would dictate a major reorganization of the industry, into a different model than we currently have.

So, after some furious thinking detailed above, I'd say collapse of the anime industry would start by collapse of the production companies, followed by repurposal of those sectors linked to it that can do so(voice actor agencies becoming even more of idol agencies tha they currently are, for instance). A few companies would be able to change their business model, and be the seed for a new industry(KyoAni may very well be the future paradigm of the industry; they moved to get a lot of what would be done by third parties in-company - they even opened a publishing house and almost everything they animate now is their own IPs).

Whats wrong with the long light novel titles? They can be hilarious or memery in their own way.

They can. However they have become a crutch for people who think summaries are for wimps - go to a list of web novel titles, and most of them are paragraph long nowadays. I don't have anything against long titles, IF they don't become an overused gag - which they have(also, the Japanese way of writing seems to lend itself to this sort of thing, which seems to be the biggest reason why they have become overused).
 
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LifeisTiresome

Well-known member
No, it's not what I meant by collapse, although it may be a symptom of impending collapse. Without really reflecting and doing research on it, I can see two mechanisms for an anime industry collapse, which would combine and feedback each other:

- The sectors of it who get the short stick decide it's a sucker's game to play and vote with their feet: As I understand it, anime are funded by what is called project financing; a corporation(for instance, Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica's Madoka Project) is created which goes on to hire animation studios, voice actors, and so on. This is a common way of funding infrastructure and potentially risky projects, and it gets you the following(among other) consequences:

1) Loans and financing are based on the financial assets and liabilities of the recently-created corporation, not on the parent corporation's ones. This means that any financial problems the parent corporation(s) may have do not factor in the decision to fund the project(risk reduction). It also means that, if the project fails, liability won't extend to the parent corporation(s)(again, risk reduction; the most important component of it, actually);

2) Since the animation studios and the companies who will produce the anime won't be involved in the funding part of it. While this means funding for the future anime is easier(as most animation studios and so on tend to be quite risky companies to invest in, being comparatively small and usually living from project to project), and it shields these companies from the risk of the anime bombing, it also means they will merely receive a fee from it; any profits go to the project corporation and from there to the financial backers. And so, the companies that do the production work won't be threatened by the failure of the project, but at the same time, will almost never grow into a position where they could survive such a failure.

So, in one side we have financial backers, who due to the way anime financing is done, keep getting most of the money, and the production companies, which tend to be small and have only contract relations with the anime projects. Should the financial realities determine cost of production is too high, where will the money squeeze likely hit? The answer seems to be obvious. When Shirobako was released, a picture was floated around showing salaries for different jobs in the industry, and it was what you would expect. And that was merely for an animation studio, it didn't even go into what the guys on the financial backing companies would earn.

Now, what I'm saying is merely the world as it is, he who pays the piper gets to choose the tune and all that. But how long until the ones who get the smallest salaries(and usually the lion's share of the backbreaking work and extra work hours) decide it's simply not worth it to work on this, even though they love doing it, anymore? How long until companies decide it's not worth it staying open(or worse, aren't able to)? This ties into the other mechanism, which I have already touched upon;

- The quest for reducing cost is unending; possible areas of improvement on that aren't: No matter what, there will always be calls for reducing cost, which will result in an ever-growing squeeze on the weaker sectors of the industry. Thus, an anime industry that wholeheartedly moves into CGI could be an indication that it's not economically viable to have human animators any more - but CGI also has its limits. How long until 3D computing isn't cheap enough for the industry? The obvious answer in that case would be recreating the armies of animators - but that would dictate a major reorganization of the industry, into a different model than we currently have.

So, after some furious thinking detailed above, I'd say collapse of the anime industry would start by collapse of the production companies, followed by repurposal of those sectors linked to it that can do so(voice actor agencies becoming even more of idol agencies tha they currently are, for instance). A few companies would be able to change their business model, and be the seed for a new industry(KyoAni may very well be the future paradigm of the industry; they moved to get a lot of what would be done by third parties in-company - they even opened a publishing house and almost everything they animate now is their own IPs).



They can. However they have become a crutch for people who think summaries are for wimps - go to a list of web novel titles, and most of them are paragraph long nowadays. I don't have anything against long titles, IF they don't become an overused gag - which they have(also, the Japanese way of writing seems to lend itself to this sort of thing, which seems to be the biggest reason why they have become overused).
Thanks for replying. I will take a deep read later in the day.
 

Val the Moofia Boss

Well-known member
As I understand it, the increasing prevalence of CGI in anime is due to the chronic shortage of animators.

The Japanese anime industry is torture. It is long hours and very little pay, exploiting the passion of the animators. As such, only the very, very passionate join the industry. At the same time, the anime industry is booming, so you have more productions than ever before. And the timeslots for these shows are locked in almost a year in advance, so the episode HAS to be done on time, or else it doesn't air at all. So the productions are incentivized to find ANY way to fill in the gaps possible.

Another reason for the prevalence of CGI mecha, CGI cars, etc, is because mecha animators are a dying breed. Mecha have so many lines and take a very long time to animate. I think Sunrise (the Gundam studio) is the only studio that really has mecha animators left, as every non-Sunrise production from within the last 10 years pretty much just uses CGI mechs and cars and such.
 

Captain X

Well-known member
Osaul
I'm under the impression that at least some of it comes from the project directors actually thinking it looks cool. This is apparently why the current CGI Berserk series looks the way it does, even if a lot of people think it both looks and sounds like shit. Personally, I think at least part of the problem is that they keep trying to make it look like traditional 2D anime instead of embracing the fact it's 3D. For example - compare the 2004 Appleseed movie with its sequel.

maxresdefault.jpg


The first one tries to emulate the 2D look with its textures, while the sequel abandons this and goes for a more semi-realistic approach.

311_5.jpg


And I think it looks better, IMO. To me, it would be better if the industry took more of the Pixar approach, where the visual design can still be cartoony, but no attempt is made to make it look like traditional 2D animation.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Yeah, CGI is just plain cheap compared to anything drawn. Go look at the hordes of animations being put out by tiny and one-man studios on Patreon. Now count how many are CGI (~100%) and how many are hand drawn. There's a reason for that, the CGI can be done by fewer people for less money.
 

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