LordsFire
Internet Wizard
No, you clearly didn't.
If you claim otherwise, tell me what the last paragraph of my post said.
United States Craft of 'Non-Human Origin' Have Been Retrieved by the US DoD and Others for 80 Years, Congressional UAP Whistleblower Reports Confirm.
- Thread starter Bacle
- Start date
If you claim otherwise, tell me what the last paragraph of my post said.
Batrix2070
RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
In a nutshell, you are assuming incorrectly that if you are technically advanced. You don't need to conquer other races for resources. For resources even lie in space at your "fingertips" so conquering Earth, is like the Romans pulling iron from Hawaii. (Which made me hinge with amusement).
You are assuming that there may be other reasons to conquer other than resources, although I think that is rather multiplying entities beyond the need and a simpler answer is better.
Hence, I find your entire post, although it makes sense in a certain, very limited context. Overall, it is simply a misleading conclusion. And actually, there is no point in referring to it in any way.
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
So, you can't answer a simple question about what my post actually said.
Ergo, it is reasonable for me to either conclude you either did not read said post, though at this point I'm thinking maybe you are so caught up in the conclusions you've already reached, that you're ignoring other input.
Batrix2070
RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
Yes lord omniscient./s
Explain to me what you wanted to tell me to accept your only "truth".
Batrix2070
RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
Because the conclusions I drew from this sound like this. Cool, but impractical. Literally, your entire post, can be summarized.
You don't need planets, because fuck there are asteroids. So it's better to take asteroids because it's fucking difficult and thus unprofitable to transport resources from planet A to B because surely an interstellar civilization has a problem and a big cost with lifting resources from one planet and moving them to another.
This is not at all the same outlook as an ancient civilization on intercontinental transportation in the modern world. At all./s
Did I understand correctly?
You don't need planets, because fuck there are asteroids. So it's better to take asteroids because it's fucking difficult and thus unprofitable to transport resources from planet A to B because surely an interstellar civilization has a problem and a big cost with lifting resources from one planet and moving them to another.
This is not at all the same outlook as an ancient civilization on intercontinental transportation in the modern world. At all./s
Did I understand correctly?
It actually being aliens and/or a proper UFO is vanishingly unlikely. We know where our entire tech base has come from and have voluminous evidence of every part of the development and production process.
Even assuming that the alien technology is something that we can understand today (much less back in the 1950's or whatever), that tells us little to nothing about how to produce that item.
Take a modern CPU back to the 1950's and there exists basically zero chance (you have better odds of winning the lottery multiple times in a row) of anyone figuring out how to, even theoretically, produce such a chip. Much less build the required infrastructure.
Useful technology from an alien craft would be in the nature of truly novel/overlooked physics. Like if they had some anti-gravity device that wasn't actually that advanced but we had just never thought of. Anything involving materials science is basically a dead end, as are basically any electronics or IT related things.
Unless we want to also posit that they had a fairly substantial library on board and that we can access and translate it.
---
Does alien life exist? Practically guaranteed.
Has it visited Sol? Doubtful.
Does the government have solid evidence of a visit to Earth/Sol? Vanishingly unlikely.
Does the US DoD sit on metric buttloads of game changing technologies for decades at a time? Absolutely.
The US National Security establishment throws more money at pie in the sky R&D every year than all but like five nations entire military budget, and has done so for like seventy plus years. There are a LOT of relatively novel things that are at least theoretically possible but haven't seen production use.
For example, negative index of refraction meta materials mean that actual visible cloaking of vehicles is possible. Even theoretically for RADAR as well. If anyone has figured out how to produce such meta materials at scale and has a use for them it is the US DoD. Truly invisible jets (except for the heat signature from the exhaust at least).
The US has also thrown more money into LASER research than anyone else for multiple decades and has, publicly, nothing at all to really show for it. And yet it is still billions per year being throw at the issue.
The US Navy has been funding fusion research since the 50's.
Assume a few secretive breakthroughs in Lasers, Fusion, and materials science and you might actually be able to put a viable fusion engine onto an air frame and give it a performance envelope that blows anything else out of the water. If you can do that and RADAR invisibility then you could make a stealthed space plane (probably). Make it a drone and you could be looking at a performance and maneuvering envelope that humans just couldn't survive.
That is also the kind of tech that you are going to sit on for a very long time. The US is already head and shoulders above everyone else in military power, it has no need to push that edge out even further in that manner. Sitting on it, on the other hand, gives an emergency capability if needed and secures you for another generation or two. And is not massively disrupting to the entire globe. And fusion on that scale would be a massive global disruptor.
Even assuming that the alien technology is something that we can understand today (much less back in the 1950's or whatever), that tells us little to nothing about how to produce that item.
Take a modern CPU back to the 1950's and there exists basically zero chance (you have better odds of winning the lottery multiple times in a row) of anyone figuring out how to, even theoretically, produce such a chip. Much less build the required infrastructure.
Useful technology from an alien craft would be in the nature of truly novel/overlooked physics. Like if they had some anti-gravity device that wasn't actually that advanced but we had just never thought of. Anything involving materials science is basically a dead end, as are basically any electronics or IT related things.
Unless we want to also posit that they had a fairly substantial library on board and that we can access and translate it.
---
Does alien life exist? Practically guaranteed.
Has it visited Sol? Doubtful.
Does the government have solid evidence of a visit to Earth/Sol? Vanishingly unlikely.
Does the US DoD sit on metric buttloads of game changing technologies for decades at a time? Absolutely.
The US National Security establishment throws more money at pie in the sky R&D every year than all but like five nations entire military budget, and has done so for like seventy plus years. There are a LOT of relatively novel things that are at least theoretically possible but haven't seen production use.
For example, negative index of refraction meta materials mean that actual visible cloaking of vehicles is possible. Even theoretically for RADAR as well. If anyone has figured out how to produce such meta materials at scale and has a use for them it is the US DoD. Truly invisible jets (except for the heat signature from the exhaust at least).
The US has also thrown more money into LASER research than anyone else for multiple decades and has, publicly, nothing at all to really show for it. And yet it is still billions per year being throw at the issue.
The US Navy has been funding fusion research since the 50's.
Assume a few secretive breakthroughs in Lasers, Fusion, and materials science and you might actually be able to put a viable fusion engine onto an air frame and give it a performance envelope that blows anything else out of the water. If you can do that and RADAR invisibility then you could make a stealthed space plane (probably). Make it a drone and you could be looking at a performance and maneuvering envelope that humans just couldn't survive.
That is also the kind of tech that you are going to sit on for a very long time. The US is already head and shoulders above everyone else in military power, it has no need to push that edge out even further in that manner. Sitting on it, on the other hand, gives an emergency capability if needed and secures you for another generation or two. And is not massively disrupting to the entire globe. And fusion on that scale would be a massive global disruptor.
Doomsought
Well-known member
All of this. This is what I've been thinking too.
I believe these leakers believe what they're saying though. And I also believe that the vast majority of the government knows nothing about it.
We're talking deep black projects here, more than likely.
It's possible they've unlocked entirely different and more advanced tech trees.
What I find fascinating is that the behavior of some of these craft violates what we know about physics. The speeds and lack of exhaust really are weird.
They've developed some pretty crazy stuff, I'm thinking. Stuff that looks like aliens to the average person.
The more I think about this, the more I think this guy might be a plant that's full of shit.
Perhaps this is cover for the hyper advanced tech we may have? Maybe they want people like China thinking it's aliens rather than ours? Or at least maybe we want adversaries thinking that we don't know what these objects are either.
He seems genuine though, but maybe he's good at acting.
Perhaps this is cover for the hyper advanced tech we may have? Maybe they want people like China thinking it's aliens rather than ours? Or at least maybe we want adversaries thinking that we don't know what these objects are either.
He seems genuine though, but maybe he's good at acting.
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bintananth
behind a desk
They might have evolved in star system similar to ours. G-type and the larger K-type* stars are in a sweet spot where they stay on the main sequence for a long time and for something in the habitable zone to not be tide locked. As stars get smaller their luminosity falls rapidly. As they get bigger and brighter the time they spend on the main sequence also falls rapidly.
Plus, any aliens who hadn't noticed the rather large rocky planet with lots of O2 in the atmosphere when they started paying close attention to the Sol system will certainly find Earth very interesting when they do notice it because Oxygen will react with practically everything which can be oxidized further and does not like to let go of whatever it has oxidized. Lots of O2 in an atmosphere indicates that some process is continuously producing it.
If we have recovered alien spacecraft - a possibility I won't completely rule out - the propulsion systems would be of the utmost interest to science. If they're not limited by conservation of momentium and relativity ... "How the heck does that work?". If they are, they've got to be much better than ours just to make the trip here in a feasable timeframe before slowing down enough to land the spacecraft somewhat intact.
* Around a K0V like Sigma Draconis (0.85Msun, 0.41Lsun) an Earth-expy would be at about 0.6AU with a 180day-ish orbital period.
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If there were aliens visiting, tgere's always also the possibility that their concept of time is just way different than ours. Maybe their lives are hundreds, or thousands, or hundreds of thousands of years longer than ours? Maybe they don't even die from old age.
For a species like that, taking a long trip to earth in a near light speed craft from one of the somewhat closer stars isn’t completely crazy.
bintananth
behind a desk
That's where the propulsion system comes in. The rocket equation is what it is.
Δv = ve ln(mi/mf)
0.6275*Δv = ve is when it's most efficient in terms of propellant mass. A little less than 80% of mi is propellant.
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
No, you really don't seem to have.
And you are constantly reframing things to suit the interpretation of things that you already have.
And again, you still don't seem to understand the significance of that last paragraph.
Doomsought
Well-known member
The most reliable way to escape the rocket equation is to use something that is not a rocket. This is why so many people put hope in quantum vacuum thrusters before they turned out to be a bust, in theory they are not rockets but instead work against an external medium of zero point energy simular to how an airplane propeller works against an external medium of air. Unfortunately, all our attempts to do meaningful work with zero point energy have turned up a null hypothesis.
Batrix2070
RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
Okay smart guy, tell me what you mean or I'll continue to give a damn about what you're trying to convey. Because I'm starting to get annoyed by your constant misunderstanding. As far as I'm concerned, you keep misunderstanding what I said.
Because as far as I'm concerned, you're starting to spin something and make up something that isn't in your statement.
Because the whole point, for me, comes down to one thing. Conquering the earth is impractical, because there are resources in space that are easier to take and transport to yourself.
You think that it is downright impractical to conquer other races, because there are so many resources in the comatose system that it is cheaper to extract all of them in space and take them with you.
Which, by the way, to me, a strong exaggeration, because it assumes the difficulties occurring at our stage as decisive. As well as that there are as many of these resources as you think there are enough for a space civilization.
Therefore, I ignore it because it assumes strictly limited schemes, which in general, will not be a serious problem.
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LordsFire
Internet Wizard
The key phrase of this paragraph:
"There may be all kinds of other reasons,"
Someone might decide to conquer someone else because they're a militant culture, because they have dictatorial ambitions, because they don't like the way you bloody well smell.
Any number of possible reasons.
The whole summation of my post was that 'There are many reasons why one spacefaring civilization might want to conquer a drastically more primitive one, but a practical need for the resources on their planet will not be one of them.'
I was not 'assuming strictly limited schemes,' I was in fact making a strictly limited statement. That strictly limited statement being about resource extraction as a primary motivation.
You extrapolating it out into much broader and more nebulous things is frankly pretty obnoxious.
I have now reiterated my main point three times in this post alone. Have I explained it clearly enough yet?
Batrix2070
RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
Aha, so that's what you meant?
You actually could have meant that right away, without some bullshit about asteroids. Or saying, you did not understand.
No less, I have already responded to this allegation. that this is a multiplication of entities beyond the need. A simpler answer ie conquest for resources (or conquest under the base, from where you can supervise the extraction of resources.), looking also at historical analogies, is in my opinion. More justified.
Especially since most of the other reasons, is in fact, a beautiful avoidance of the subject, which is really what the conqueror wants.
Now, do you understand my answer in relation to you? Or should I explain my mental shortcut to you, much more simply?
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
...I still can't tell if you even understood the point I was making.
You're Polish, right? Are we having an 'English is not your primary language' problem?
Do you think I was trying to make a larger argument against hypothetical aliens having a reason or motivation to invade a planet with a native civilization on it?
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Batrix2070
RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
We don't have a problem because I use a translator out of habit. Although when there are problems, I switch to English.
And yes, I understand what you mean. So I'll answer as simply as possible. For me, what you want to say is complete nonsense. Resulting simply, from the wrong optics.
Do you now understand what I mean?
I do not consider your answer correct, although I agree that there may be other, reasons for conquest. That said, I consider them, like any of their kind there have been in history, to be an excuse designed to cover up simple greed.