Cyberpunk America vs Fallout America vs Modern Earth NATO

[Scooby Doo]

Vs

Vs

Period for American combatants is 2077, for NATO allies its Pre-Covid

Location is on 21st Century Modern Day Earth. Modern America is substituted with Fallout America and China + Russia is substituted with Cyberpunk America.

Fallout North America begins to annex Canada and Mexico where as Cyberpunk Earth begins to annex India, Pakistan and Taiwan.


The NATO allies collectively crap themselves and go into total war footing while other nations try and fail to fend off the Americas who soon take notice of each other and begin a three way war.


Six months of prep for all sides prior to the free for all.

Fallout America can not use nukes more powerful than Mark 28 Nuclear Bombs. But in exchange their no longer is a resource issue (Due to annexing Canada and Mexico) and Liberty Prime is fully functional as well any other prototype technology that was on a Prototype Stage is now available for mass production.

NATO and Cyberpunk America can't use nukes either but are in turn fully unified with perfect team work.



Scenario 2) Fallout America also gets Post War tech fully mass produced. NATO and Cyberpunk America gets five years prep time.


Edit; If NATO gets stomped give them ten years prep time and Ukraine joins NATO.

 

[posh-goofiness]

NATO immediately gets stomped by Cyberpunk America. The cyberwarfare advantage is just too much for NATO to overcome. We have naval ships still running core software on windows XP...

Fallout America then stomps Cyberpunk America. Unrestricted nuke use is also too much of an advantage for anyone to really overcome.

 

[Scooby Doo]

NATO immediately gets stomped by Cyberpunk America. The cyberwarfare advantage is just too much for NATO to overcome. We have naval ships still running core software on windows XP...

Fallout America then stomps Cyberpunk America. Unrestricted nuke use is also too much of an advantage for anyone to really overcome.

They only get up to the Mark 28 nukes tho. Those are the small nukes that Prime tosses which are irc only 3-4x times a Mini Nuke.

Ingram's dialogue

Just one of the nukes is equivalent to about three or four Fat Man shells. Basically, whatever it hits isn't getting up again.

 

[Agent23]

NATO immediately gets stomped by Cyberpunk America. The cyberwarfare advantage is just too much for NATO to overcome. We have naval ships still running core software on windows XP...

Fallout America then stomps Cyberpunk America. Unrestricted nuke use is also too much of an advantage for anyone to really overcome.

Um, Cyberpunk 2077 "America" is a third world corpo-run and balkanized shithole.
The Corpos that run it, though, have access to some pretty advanced tech including cheap and easy to use anti-gravity tech/orbital capabilities.

The CP2077 world managed to colonize other planets and build decent sized space hotels and other installations, so in that sense they are somewhat ahead of FOUSA. And we really haven't seen their best tech, either, not military grade stuff.

Only thing close to that was iirc that weird hovertank MC stole for Pan-Am's people and that was old and iirc considered obsolete.

 

[Scooby Doo]

Well FO America's economy is stupidly fucking strong. That's several hundred trillion dollars (122 Vaults were made) over the course of 23 years while in a crisis and resource issue.

 

[Agent23]

Well FO America's economy is stupidly fucking strong. That's several hundred trillion dollars (122 Vaults were made) over the course of 23 years while in a crisis and resource issue.

Except that this sorta contradicts the new lore, where the vaults were just a weirdo deep state sociological experiment with population in the single thousands.Neither that large nor that impressive.

The key thing about them is that their reactors can last for quite a while and they have very good recycling capability.

This manual of yours sounds impressive, but what we see of actual vaults says otherwise.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Sustaining hundreds or low thousands number of people in massive nuclear holocaust proof vaults that can sustain themselves for centuries is actually an impressive engineering feat.

And its well known that Project Safehouse was a wonky social experiment from lore going back to Fallout 2 but that doesn't mean that they spared any expense considering how long some of these insane social experiments (and control Vaults) actually lasted.

Also the cost of Vault 13 being $400 billion was actually cited in the lore as far back as 1997.

Fallout USA was/is an economic powerhouse.

 

[Agent23]

Sustaining hundreds or low thousands number of people in massive nuclear holocaust proof vaults that can sustain themselves for centuries is actually an impressive engineering feat.

And its well known that Project Safehouse was a wonky social experiment from lore going back to Fallout 2 but that doesn't mean that they spared any expense considering how long some of these insane social experiments (and control Vaults) actually lasted.

Also the cost of Vault 13 being $400 billion was actually cited in the lore as far back as 1997.

Fallout USA was/is an economic powerhouse.

Not with FO tech, the vault living areas were pretty small and not all that roomy, and I think 1k is the maximum number of people that can be crammed in, frankly, most vaults like 101 didn't look that large.

What made the project feasible was cheap, long-term power generation via FO fusion and fission reactors.
That and improved hydroponics and the other manufacturing and synthesis tech FO had were the primary enablers of the project.

Moving the amount of dirt to build something like a vault is not that hard, it was probably the simplest part of the process, given that even we can easily do this even without FO's robots and crazy powersources and probably commercial demolition nukes(I seem to recall a few fairly impressive digging machines, too, I just don't remember that part of FO4 all that well.):

Hell, people in Colombia built an actual cathedral 200 meters underneath a mountain in the 1930s.

Also, 400 billion dollars might sound like a big number, but we really don't know where inflation was at by 2077 FOverse time.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Not with FO tech, the vault living areas were pretty small and not all that roomy, and I think 1k is the maximum number of people that can be crammed in, frankly, most vaults like 101 didn't look that large.

What made the project feasible was cheap, long-term power generation via FO fusion and fission reactors.
That and improved hydroponics and the other manufacturing and synthesis tech FO had were the primary enablers of the project.

Moving the amount of dirt to build something like a vault is not that hard, it was probably the simplest part of the process, given that even we can easily do this even without FO's robots and crazy powersources and probably commercial demolition nukes(I seem to recall a few fairly impressive digging machines, too, I just don't remember that part of FO4 all that well.):

Also, 400 billion dollars might sound like a big number, but we really don't know where inflation was at by 2077 FOverse time.

The reason facilities look small is because of game scaling. The Prydwen in Fallout 4 has only like twenty five beds and yet is somehow deploying the entire division of the Eastern Brotherhood. The airship has almost as many Vertibird docks as it does beds.

All of the Casino Floors in New Vegas look comparatively tiny compared to real life Vegas casino floors. The NCR states they suffered a thousand casualties a year during the NCR-Legion War that could be replaced but we don't see a thousand NCR troops in the whole Mojave. The first Battle of Hoover Dam cost over a hundred NCR soldiers killed but the second one involves like a half dozen Rangers and troopers leading an assault with the Courier on Caesars Camp after the Dam is secured? Vault 13 in Fallout 1 is said to have a thousand people with a hundred living units in the Vault but as we can see, there aren't that many NPC's. The Hub was described as a huge city that you could drop a Vault in and no one would notice, but you could run across it in about a minute or two. Even famous landmarks in game are much smaller then they would be in real life like the Pentagon or whatnot. Typically modern Fallout game settings are like a tenth of the size of what they are trying to depict regarding map size.

I'm sure some Vaults were meant to be small, as you see in game along with other things but in general most of the scale is lost due to scaling down the worlds so the game can actually be playable.

 

[Agent23]

The reason facilities look small is because of game scaling. The Prydwen in Fallout 4 has only like twenty five beds and yet is somehow deploying the entire division of the Eastern Brotherhood. The airship has almost as many Vertibird docks as it does beds.

All of the Casino Floors in New Vegas look comparatively tiny compared to real life Vegas casino floors. The NCR states they suffered a thousand casualties a year during the NCR-Legion War that could be replaced but we don't see a thousand NCR troops in the whole Mojave. The first Battle of Hoover Dam cost over a hundred NCR soldiers killed but the second one involves like a half dozen Rangers and troopers leading an assault with the Courier on Caesars Camp after the Dam is secured? Vault 13 in Fallout 1 is said to have a thousand people with a hundred living units in the Vault but as we can see, there aren't that many NPC's. The Hub was described as a huge city that you could drop a Vault in and no one would notice, but you could run across it in about a minute or two. Even famous landmarks in game are much smaller then they would be in real life like the Pentagon or whatnot. Typically modern Fallout game settings are like a tenth of the size of what they are trying to depict regarding map size.

I'm sure some Vaults were meant to be small, as you see in game along with other things but in general most of the scale is lost due to scaling down the worlds so the game can actually be playable.

Sure, keep it up with the whataboutism.
Even if the vaults are larger, the personal space we saw coupled with the low 1000s or less people per vault clearly indicate that they are not that impressive in size given the population.

Feeding them and providing them with power and food is the main problem, not digging a big enough hole.
And given all the tech we saw I think the food situation was technobabbled away, remember the kiosks in teh Sierra Madre that could convert tokens to other stuff, for instance?

 

[Husky_Khan]

Sure, keep it up with the whataboutism.

The other thing to what about is how the United States in this resource and domestic crisis was able to Annex Canada, secure the Poseidon Oil Fields in the Pacific from a peer opponent and whilst defending Alaska, pursuing an invasion of Mainland China along the Yangtze River starting in 2074 which got bogged down off until the T-51's arrived but also engaged in expeditionary Operations in Mongolia as well.

Plus all of the recent advances in science and technology directly before and during the war with energy weapons, power armor, mini nukes, robotics in regards to Robobrains and Assaultrons, and the foundational tech laid out for all of the nonsense that House, the Big MT and Sierra Madre were developing which was often (partially( derailed by the Great War.

 

[Scooby Doo]

Sure, keep it up with the whataboutism.
Even if the vaults are larger, the personal space we saw coupled with the low 1000s or less people per vault clearly indicate that they are not that impressive in size given the population.

Feeding them and providing them with power and food is the main problem, not digging a big enough hole.
And given all the tech we saw I think the food situation was technobabbled away, remember the kiosks in teh Sierra Madre that could convert tokens to other stuff, for instance?

The food situation was never technobabbled away, in fact they were having massive shortages in everything for year's its kinda the whole point in the Fallout 4 intro.


The Sierra madre tech was literally last minute tech that the public was unaware of by the time bombs hit. If they just had an extra year FO America would be a Post-Scarcity society.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Even if the vaults are larger, the personal space we saw coupled with the low 1000s or less people per vault clearly indicate that they are not that impressive in size given the population.

Feeding them and providing them with power and food is the main problem, not digging a big enough hole.

Oh didn't see you actually edited your post after the one liner.

I never stated that digging a big enough hole was some sort of challenge, so that's just another strawman.

Scooby Doo addressed the Sierra Madre stuff which... either way is fine. Any arguments that Fallout has advanced technology as opposed to a slightly weaker economy is overall a net positive for a country that has conquered North America and secured enough resources to fuel said economy.

The fact your discounting Fallout Technology as hindering the idea that sustained a thousand people over a century (or two) in an isolated environment over a hundred times and utilizing it as a social experiment in most cases is legitimately impressive and it's far more impressive than your counter examples of digging giant holes or a Cathedral being built in old 19th century mines. If I was attempting to make a counter argument, I probably would've referenced the plethora of nuclear bunkers and the like as shown on YouTube in an attempt to downplay the idea that constructing over a hundred vaults in a decade that can sustain "low thousands or less people" for decades or centuries at a time as unimpressive. The Vault 101 PA System stated that it could be sustained for 900 years, though that's a pretty long time to live in a generational bunker.

You could compare it Bunker 42 near the Kremlin could house 600 people but only for 30 days instead of 20, 200 or 900 years. And just because Fallout has advanced technology doesn't mean the engineering feat is any less impressive. If taken at its maximum, safely housing 100,000 people for centuries (as the test vaults proved was possible) with construction lasting less then a decade is something quite exceptional, especially with taken in conjunction with everything else that Fallout USA was engaged in from my previous post.

 

[Scooby Doo]

Oh didn't see you actually edited your post after the one liner.

I never stated that digging a big enough hole was some sort of challenge, so that's just another strawman.

Scooby Doo addressed the Sierra Madre stuff which... either way is fine. Any arguments that Fallout has advanced technology as opposed to a slightly weaker economy is overall a net positive for a country that has conquered North America and secured enough resources to fuel said economy.

The fact your discounting Fallout Technology as hindering the idea that sustained a thousand people over a century (or two) in an isolated environment over a hundred times and utilizing it as a social experiment in most cases is legitimately impressive and it's far more impressive than your counter examples of digging giant holes or a Cathedral being built in old 19th century mines. If I was attempting to make a counter argument, I probably would've referenced the plethora of nuclear bunkers and the like as shown on YouTube in an attempt to downplay the idea that constructing over a hundred vaults in a decade that can sustain "low thousands or less people" for decades or centuries at a time as unimpressive. The Vault 101 PA System stated that it could be sustained for 900 years, though that's a pretty long time to live in a generational bunker.

You could compare it Bunker 42 near the Kremlin could house 600 people but only for 30 days instead of 20, 200 or 900 years. And just because Fallout has advanced technology doesn't mean the engineering feat is any less impressive. If taken at its maximum, safely housing 100,000 people for centuries (as the test vaults proved was possible) with construction lasting less then a decade is something quite exceptional, especially with taken in conjunction with everything else that Fallout USA was engaged in from my previous post.

They also created hundreds of military bunkers like Hidden Valley which on top of being hundreds of feet deep irc require a megaton busting bunker bomb on top of having its own electronic warfare technology.

The goal of the Hidden Valley project is to create a self-sustaining shelter for high-ranking VIPs that can serve as a command structure in times of crisis. The bunker itself is located several hundred feet below the surface. Multiple layers of reinforced materials serve to prevent a breach of the inhabitable areas by anything save for a direct hit by a bunker-busting weapon utilizing a megatonnage considered outside the capability of America's closest competitors. In the event that our enemies become capable of such an attack, the bunker's DERVISH camouflage system makes targeting the site impossible for automated systems, forcing aggressors to rely on guesswork and sheer luck.

to all bunker systems. Built more for reliability and duration of service, the power output of the system has been exceeded by many current designs, but it can supply the bunker with power for an estimated 752 years.

The DERVISH camouflage system provides visual and electronic interference to prevent airborne or long-range enemy weapons from targeting the bunker. The normal soil around Hidden Valley has been supplemented with a combination of aluminum and various silicates, which are then dispersed using a widespread network of industrial fans to blanket the area in a cloud of what is essentially chaff. Combined with the electronic countermeasures of the nearby array at Black Mountain, the bunker at Hidden Valley is effectively impossible to target.

So in the middle of a pandemic and massive war between super powers and resource crisis (Which required Military assets to be deployed to keep the order in America and annexed Canada)


They were able to fund the projects for hundreds of military bunkers, Big MT Wondertech and other wonder weapons outside of it, 123 Vaults, three generations of power armor as well as the logistics to keep them supplied with no issue.

 

[Agent23]

The food situation was never technobabbled away, in fact they were having massive shortages in everything for year's its kinda the whole point in the Fallout 4 intro.


The Sierra madre tech was literally last minute tech that the public was unaware of by the time bombs hit. If they just had an extra year FO America would be a Post-Scarcity society.

Considering they had problems with energy I doubt it.

They were literally running out of fissionable materials as well as oil IIRC.
And we don't know what isotopes of light elements they needed for their fusion tech and how those were produced.

 

[Scooby Doo]

Considering they had problems with energy I doubt it.

They were literally running out of fissionable materials as well as oil IIRC.
And we don't know what isotopes of light elements they needed for their fusion tech and how those were produced.

You can doubt it bruh but truth is they still hadn't mass produced what they needed to be entirely self-sufficient.

Hence this scene here of people protesting and countless terminals indicating protests, we know they had enough reserves to survive until they took back Alsaka and that the Enclave Oil rig had some reserves as well.


The point being FO America was transitioning to technologies that would have made them self sufficient (For example refining production methods for more fuel during the middle of the resource wars)

Tour guide: "Ready for the REPCONN tour, Rocketeers? Courtesy of the fine folks at RobCo, I'll be your guide today on the path of... Scientific. Discovery. In the lead-lined case behind me is a spent radioactive rod from of our old reactors. No need to stand too close, let's move along, shall we? Look here - a row of multi-colored plasma fuels! Careful, they may look safe to drink, but your stomach is the last place they should be. Why the difference in cylinder size? Refining our production methods has resulted in higher yields of fuel over time, that's why!

Plasma was also going to be phased in as a new fuel that is radiation free and safe

REPCONN headquarters placard: "'Plas-Ma What?'"
"Hold up, Rocketeers, what's this? This trio of cylinders isn't a trio of cylinders at all!* They're containers holding what some* scientists call 'plasma.' Can you say 'plasma?' REPCONN's always looking to the future, and in our future, we don't have to worry about radiation, health risks, or lawsuits when using this new and improved fuel source to blast our rockets into and out of the sky!"

heck REPCOM already had a plan in place irc to solve every other resource issue by creating automated machines to mine the system for resources they needed.

REPCONN headquarters placard: "'Our Rich, Rich, Solar System.'"
"A model of our solar system (not actual size). Beautiful, isn't it? RobCo, with its subsidiary REPCONN, has often gazed into the night sky, seeing the rich pageant of stars and planets above us. Our goal? To send unmanned rockets to these other systems, seeing their beauty firsthand while mining ever deeper into each planet's surface for precious resources needed here at home. This is our promise to mankind, extending our reach into a future where the number or RobCo and REPCONN rockets match the stars in the sky."

So in summary

 

[Agent23]

You can doubt it bruh but truth is they still hadn't mass produced what they needed to be entirely self-sufficient.

Hence this scene here of people protesting and countless terminals indicating protests, we know they had enough reserves to survive until they took back Alsaka and that the Enclave Oil rig had some reserves as well.


The point being FO America was transitioning to technologies that would have made them self sufficient (For example refining production methods for more fuel during the middle of the resource wars)

Plasma was also going to be phased in as a new fuel that is radiation free and safe



heck REPCOM already had a plan in place irc to solve every other resource issue by creating automated machines to mine the system for resources they needed.

So in summary

Yeah, sure.
Press 'F' to doubt.
I mean, I rether enjoy FO, but the truth is you are whanking it quite a bit here, Scoob.

 

[Scooby Doo]

Yeah, sure.
Press 'F' to doubt.
I mean, I rether enjoy FO, but the truth is you are whanking it quite a bit here, Scoob.

I'm not really, been playing New Vegas as of recently and reading the lore in the game.

Everything I said can be backed up with sources. Fallout America doesn't look that OP until you actually stop killing things and read the log entry and terminals.

 

[Husky_Khan]

So I journeyed into le basement and dug out a well worn copy of Cyberpunks Maximum Metal but as I browsed through its dusty pages I realized all of the information is roughly 57 years out of date. As is of course... most Cyberpunk 2020 materials... all of them likely in fact.

Lot of different armored cars and APC type vehicles, but they also have attack helicopters that are rotor based, as well as Aerodynes (AV's) based off of vectored thrust and powered armor/minimechs. They also have a Main Battle Tank, the M-11.

The M-11 is... and I quote: the Army's current state of the art main battle tank. Cyberlinked, fast, heavily armored and extremely expensive, it is supposed to be too costly for the corporations to match or exceed.

For special equipment it almost generically lists the following (lists are similar for many of the vehicles): Composite Armor, Amphibious Modications, damage control, environmental control, 12 man hours life support, anti-laser aerosol, chaff and IR smoke dispensers, 6 IR smoke dispensers, AEAMS (Active Explosive Anti-Missile System which uses radar/sonar to detect and destroy incoming projectiles with an explosive charge similar to a Claymore mine), military radio with scrambler, laser communicator, satellite uplink, multitarget, microwave and visual rangefinders, autopilot and navigation system, cybernetic linkage, ECM, ECCM, image enhancement, laser detector, microwave detector, military radar, military radar detector, telescopic optics, AND thermograph.

Oh and the weapons: Stabilized LATG (Light Anti-Tank Gun), Painting Laser and 2cm Rail Gun (with extra magazine apiece) in turret, AGAMS (Active Gatling Anti-Missile System with a 90% detection rate on missiles, or rockets engaged within 100 meters) and 30mm autocannon in small turret atop main turret, 6 Hellfire missiles in main turrent, 7.62mm Machine Gun in articulated mount on front hull.

It weighs 60 tons, has a crew of three, a top speed of 60mph, range of 300 miles and costs a mere 16.4 Cyberbucks. It has an armor rating of 225 SP which each SP point translates to an equivalent of 2.5mm of steel armor protection so 563 mm of protection?

This 20mm Railgun has a penetration factor of 17. Comparatively a 120mm Tank Cannon has a penetration value of 13 and a 140mm Tank Cannon has a penetration value of 16... so... uhhh make of that what you will. The 20mm Railgun has a range of 1500m and the 120mm and 140mm Tank Cannon have a range of 1250m and 1500 meters respectively.

There is also a popular Corporate Tank, the M-75 Light Tank. 80mph, crew of two. with an SP of 60 and weighs in at 14 tons. It is only a tenth the cost of the M-11 Tank. It has a 12.7mm Machine gun and a stabilized 75mm gun in the turret and a fire control computer, reactive armor, amphibious modications, 4 IR smoke projectors, military radio with scrambler, laser and visual rangefinders, autopilot and navigation systems, image enhancement and thermograph.

Militech makes their own MBT, the MT-4 weighing in at 41 tons, with 160 SP's of armor, and a stabilized 1cm railgun, 25mm autocannon, and an HATGM fixed forward with seven optical/thermal missiles. It also has what hte M-75 has plus a laser communicator, anti-laser aerosol and IR smoke dispensers, composite armor, military tardar and military radar detector.

The US Military also has some attack helicopter types, nothing seems exceptional. An updated version of the A-10 Warthog, a jet fighter, fair number of hovercraft etc.

As for powered armor, here's a sampling. There's an earlier one called the Arasaka Standard B which has a radio, ECI WideBand HUD (potential capability in multitargeting, anti-dazzle/lowlight, image enhancement and teleoptics etc), EMP Sponge, Thermal Targeting, Monitor Auto Doc, and BSS Silicon Spray. It weights 691 kilograms and costs just over 89,000 EB. It's armed with an external carried 12.7mm Heavy Machine Gun, a Tsunami 25mm High Pressure Grenade Launcher in the right arm and an Auto-Fletchete Pistol and BSS Silicon Spray (a sticky glue for quick repairs) in the Left Arm. It has 50 SP's for armor.

Something more common might be the Militech Commando. It has Militech VRI (virtual reality interface(, a military Radio, A/V Recording, Laser Detection, Ribbon and Smoke Canisters, an EMP Sponge, a heavy BLADE for melee, a Repeater Autodoc, and can carry an external 40mm Automatic Grenade Launcher (based off the NATO standard), and a Reloadable ATGM. The right arm mounts a BCL-20 20mm cannon (not an autocannon, acts more like a rifle) and a ribbon canister (similar to ECM chaff), the left arm an M-31 PA (described as a stripped down M-31A1 AICW) and a IR blocking smoke canister. It has 65 SP's, weighs in at 1235 kilograms and costs 116,000 EB.

Then there's a bigger power suit which looks like a miniature mech called the Militech Nemesis. Weighs in at 1481 kilograms and MADE IN MEXICO. No external weapons carried. It has Militech VRI, a Long Range Radio and Scrambler, A/V Recording, Climbers, EMP Sponge, a repeateder Auto Doc, Flood/Filtration suit, a Mini Roc, and mounted in the right arm is a painting laser and a 13.9mm Rifle (based off the Boys AT Rifle caliber but lighter and semiautomatic), in the left arm is a 5.56mm minigun and mounted in the torso is a BHC-G8 30mm Rifle (a heavy rifle using shells similar to that of the A-10 Attack Planes autocannon).

 

[Agent23]

I'm not really, been playing New Vegas as of recently and reading the lore in the game.

Everything I said can be backed up with sources. Fallout America doesn't look that OP until you actually stop killing things and read the log entry and terminals.

The precursors of that tech should have been visible.

You are whanking FO waay too much and not seeing the CP2077 corpos' capabilities.