And I bet that most Western nations will bring it right back once a major war starts.France had conscription until 1996.
USA stopped using conscripts only after using them for an unpopular distant expeditionary war.
And I bet that most Western nations will bring it right back once a major war starts.France had conscription until 1996.
USA stopped using conscripts only after using them for an unpopular distant expeditionary war.
And once it does, it's a bit late for that to matter...And I bet that most Western nations will bring it right back once a major war starts.
Yes, that's right. And therein lies your problem, you focus solely on the fact that "they are forcing military service!" Instead of, or maybe they have a good reason that they force to serve? Especially since it depends on your point of view, for someone who lives by the ethos that service is necessary and useful, then forcing is not part of the problem just the solution.Conscription is to put it bluntly, forcing people to do military service.
Well, for example, laziness, fear of the military mostly unnecessary, selfishness. Or simply an unwillingness to be uprooted from one's quiet civilian life, because we live from paycheck to paycheck, and any delay or uprooting from this state will make me recover for years after even a month's training.And if you have a lack of volunteers, it might be for a very good reason.
What I'm seeing from the pro-conscription side boils down to: "We need conscription because people won't sign up to defend the regime unless they're forced to at gunpoint."
Maybe the problem's not the people there...
Ya'll keep missing the point.I'd rather have a nation sufficiently well-liked and respected that it's civilians would gladly serve it militarily.
Overly idealistic, yeah, but that's my preference.
I'm all for conscription provided that nobody is exempt. That means women, that means bankers, that means politicians.
It's worth noting that only about a quarter of the US military in Vietnam were draftees, it was a mostly volunteer army with a small amount of drafting to fill in some empty slots. However, because the US hadn't practiced conscription as described above, Draftees tended not to have good training and suffered very disproportionate casualties.France had conscription until 1996.
USA stopped using conscripts only after using them for an unpopular distant expeditionary war.
Russia openly using conscription to genocide perceived dissident demographics with enemy bullets.I don't know where you got this conclusion from.
That is to say, I can consider you an extreme cynic, a man so pessimistic that only when reality hits him in the face, in the last moments of your life, will you realize what folly you have committed.
I understand that you don't trust the draft because you consider those who run your country untrustworthy. The problem is that in doing so you are giving them full control of the army, an army that, depending on the prevailing ethos, may be people who have dedicated themselves professionally to the defense of others so that you don't have to fight. But they can also be mercenaries loyal only to their own commanders and those who pay them. If they are ordered to open fire and suppress protesting civilians then, because the professional army must form a tight-knit community that is separate from civilian life, they will do so without hesitation, because their allegiance is only to their own group.
Let me put it this way, if the government is stupid enough to do it. It either has enough power and loyal people who, if there are problems, can suppress the murdered, or it is just plain stupid.Russia openly using conscription to genocide perceived dissident demographics with enemy bullets.
Crimean Tatar Minority Is in Crosshairs of Putin’s Draft
On Ukraine’s Crimean peninsula, occupied by Russia since 2014, indigenous Crimean Tatars say they are being targeted by Moscow for the military draft, leaving them with a stark choice: flee their homeland or be thrown into the fight against their Ukrainian compatriots.www.wsj.comRussia Is Sending Its Ethnic Minorities to the Meat Grinder
Chaotic mobilization sparks renewed fears that the pain will not be shared evenly across Russia.foreignpolicy.comPutin’s Discriminatory Draft
On Sept. 21, 2022, amid mounting Russian casualties in Ukraine, President Vladimir Putin declared a “partial mobilization” of the country’s military reservists. Within days, a picture began to emerge of a conscription campaign that had been disproportionately targeting Russia’s ethnic...inkstickmedia.comDo you really think any other modern goverment would hesitate to get rid of people they don't like if given an opportunity?Putin’s conscription drive targets Russia’s ethnic minorities
After decades of persecution, Tatars, Buryats, Tuvans and other minorities are being called up in droves to be sent to the front lines as ‘cannon fodder,’ according to NGOs and officialsenglish.elpais.com
I personally, unfortunately, do not. But my father, grandfather, great-grandfather(He was still serving in the Tsar's Army!) or all my uncles? Yes, somehow I didn't hear them complain about it, and Dad was happy to tell his stories from the army. And he didn't have it easy, his conscription started when there was a commune and left when it disappeared.I am curious, have you served or has any close to you served?
I wouldn't be so pessimistic, it only obscures the picture of reality because most of the time you are only looking for what makes you believe that things are bad. You're just clearly unlucky that you keep running into such people. I'm inclined to think that there are plenty of people around you who, in a moment of need, will put up arms. It just seems to you that this is not the case.... heck, it sounded like you were living in totalitarianism. Identically, many Poles felt during the darkest days of communism, i.e. its collapsing state when Jaruzelski suppressed Solidarity. (Though even before that, they felt that they were the only ones who distrusted the authorities, though constant outbursts of public discontent contradicted this.)You are assuming people in the US are self-, aware enough to turn the guns on thier superiors if it's in their interest when I'm not even convinced a good chunk of our nation can even read anymore. (It disturbs me how much I have to read to my customers)
I won't say you don't have a point there, some governments are genocidal.Russia openly using conscription to genocide perceived dissident demographics with enemy bullets.
Crimean Tatar Minority Is in Crosshairs of Putin’s Draft
On Ukraine’s Crimean peninsula, occupied by Russia since 2014, indigenous Crimean Tatars say they are being targeted by Moscow for the military draft, leaving them with a stark choice: flee their homeland or be thrown into the fight against their Ukrainian compatriots.www.wsj.comRussia Is Sending Its Ethnic Minorities to the Meat Grinder
Chaotic mobilization sparks renewed fears that the pain will not be shared evenly across Russia.foreignpolicy.comPutin’s Discriminatory Draft
On Sept. 21, 2022, amid mounting Russian casualties in Ukraine, President Vladimir Putin declared a “partial mobilization” of the country’s military reservists. Within days, a picture began to emerge of a conscription campaign that had been disproportionately targeting Russia’s ethnic...inkstickmedia.comDo you really think any other modern goverment would hesitate to get rid of people they don't like if given an opportunity?Putin’s conscription drive targets Russia’s ethnic minorities
After decades of persecution, Tatars, Buryats, Tuvans and other minorities are being called up in droves to be sent to the front lines as ‘cannon fodder,’ according to NGOs and officialsenglish.elpais.com
What I'm seeing from the pro-conscription side boils down to: "We need conscription because people won't sign up to defend the regime unless they're forced to at gunpoint."
Maybe the problem's not the people there...
I won't say you don't have a point there, some governments are genocidal.
The thing is, I can be in favor of having a prison system without wanting gulags. I can be in favor of the death penalty without wanting death camps. I can be in favor of having a police force without wanting them to abuse their power.
"The government might do something evil with X" is a legitimately good argument and it bears looking into. Gulags have happened, death camps have happened, and police have abused their power. Having an eye on them is not a bad thing, and double-checking on them is generally a net positive.
However, it is not always the case that the government needs to be banned from X, sometimes it just means there needs to be proper safeguards, enshrined rights, and a close watch on the government. Because there's very little that can't be used to do something evil if there are no safeguards, no enshrined rights, and nobody watching.
I personally, unfortunately, do not. But my father, grandfather, great-grandfather(He was still serving in the Tsar's Army!) or all my uncles? Yes, somehow I didn't hear them complain about it, and Dad was happy to tell his stories from the army. And he didn't have it easy, his conscription started when there was a commune and left when it disappeared.
I wouldn't be so pessimistic, it only obscures the picture of reality because most of the time you are only looking for what makes you believe that things are bad. You're just clearly unlucky that you keep running into such people. I'm inclined to think that there are plenty of people around you who, in a moment of need, will put up arms. It just seems to you that this is not the case.... heck, it sounded like you were living in totalitarianism. Identically, many Poles felt during the darkest days of communism, i.e. its collapsing state when Jaruzelski suppressed Solidarity. (Though even before that, they felt that they were the only ones who distrusted the authorities, though constant outbursts of public discontent contradicted this.)
Get out of the cities, man.I have no love or trust in my country or my fellow man, and at this point, I'm tired and bitter I just want to be left alone. I just want to have some worthless acreage and a house I can call my own and pass down to my kids.
Good chance they'll just follow you out of the cities eventually. I'm not sure if there's any escape from these sorts of people, similar sort of people who were more than happy to go door-to-door in the Soviet Union, even in remote villages.Get out of the cities, man.
You have a better chance to connect away from there.
Good chance they'll just follow you out of the cities eventually. I'm not sure if there's any escape from these sorts of people, similar sort of people who were more than happy to go door-to-door in the Soviet Union, even in remote villages.
That's possible, but very few people can handle such conditions themselves I'd bet.Live far enough out in the woods that if they go looking for you, they will probably just... never be heard from again?
There are different societies with different implied social contracts, so making such a blanket statement is unwise.The issue with conscription is that it only works as a moral statement if the social contract is valid. However, the social contract is not currently valid, ergo conscription is not moral. The social contract is not valid as there is no chance to escape from society.
No. The concept of "a social contract" is validated by the premise that "if you don't like it you can just leave" which is untrue.There are different societies with different implied social contracts, so making such a blanket statement is unwise.
You absolutely can leave towards a separate society with a separate contract, if one will have you, or even one of the more lawless areas that don't really have much of one. It's not a great choice, but it is a choice.No. The concept of "a social contract" is validated by the premise that "if you don't like it you can just leave" which is untrue.
The idea comes from the French Revolution, a period wherein there were both working rival systems of government and wilderness to disappear into without anyone to hunt you down for not paying taxes or for doing to the wrong thing on the wrong land.You absolutely can leave towards a separate society with a separate contract, if one will have you, or even one of the more lawless areas that don't really have much of one. It's not a great choice, but it is a choice.