United States Defunding/Abolishing the Police and Radical Police Reform in the US

[Aaron Fox]

Public sector unions were a mistake.

No, part of the problem was before the public sector had unions, the various political machines (both Dem and Rep) would stock the precincts with their cronies in the case of the police. So actual police (and later teachers, firefighters, and other public sector jobs outside the military) started the unions as part of the pushback against the politics of the time and actually get policing and not use the police as a political tool. Back then -outside of the Progressives- both parties tried some End of the Roman Republic shenanigans (particularly the Political Machines) with them. It isn't uncommon for the time for 'good cops' to get shafted and replaced by political cronies.

They aren't a mistake, they are a byproduct of an era that most people forgotten and stayed that way.

What the US really needs is a national police system with all the things that police precincts need from equipment to training to oversight.

 

[Lanmandragon]

No, part of the problem was before the public sector had unions, the various political machines (both Dem and Rep) would stock the precincts with their cronies in the case of the police. So actual police (and later teachers, firefighters, and other public sector jobs outside the military) started the unions as part of the pushback against the politics of the time and actually get policing and not use the police as a political tool. Back then -outside of the Progressives- both parties tried some End of the Roman Republic shenanigans (particularly the Political Machines) with them. It isn't uncommon for the time for 'good cops' to get shafted and replaced by political cronies.

They aren't a mistake, they are a byproduct of an era that most people forgotten and stayed that way.

What the US really needs is a national police system with all the things that police precincts need from equipment to training to oversight.

What makes you believe the feds can do it? Serious question

 

[Aaron Fox]

What makes you believe the feds can do it? Serious question

Because of this thing called 'economies of scale'. Basically, bigger is better as it were. People don't like this but it is a part of our reality.

 

[Senor Hortler]

I mean fuck the primotestors; but also fuck the police chief and mayor; this happened under their watch and the whole 'institutional oppression' is a passing of the buck when those officers should have been gotten rid of long ago judging from their past actions.

 

[Aaron Fox]

I mean fuck the primotestors; but also fuck the police chief and mayor; this happened under their watch and the whole 'institutional oppression' is a passing of the buck when those officers should have been gotten rid of long ago judging from their past actions.

Problem is that, due to how the US police force developed (if it wasn't being used to suppress what wasn't considered 'white people' at the time, it was being used by the various political machines to play essentially End of the Roman Republic cosplay) and the fact that the stigma hasn't gone away because of idiots like them, the applicant pool is essentially made up of these idiots.

Hence, at this point, a federal police system has to be established alongside things like combining McVille PDs with the various sheriff and/or municipality PDs (depending on circumstances) and thus use the economies of scale to fix the problem.

 

[Scottty]

Problem is that, due to how the US police force developed (if it wasn't being used to suppress what wasn't considered 'white people' at the time, it was being used by the various political machines to play essentially End of the Roman Republic cosplay) and the fact that the stigma hasn't gone away because of idiots like them, the applicant pool is essentially made up of these idiots.

Hence, at this point, a federal police system has to be established alongside things like combining McVille PDs with the various sheriff and/or municipality PDs (depending on circumstances) and thus use the economies of scale to fix the problem.

A look at the map tells me that Minneapolis isn't exactly some hick one-horse town in the Deep South, Aaron.

 

[Doomsought]

Hence, at this point, a federal police system has to be established alongside things like combining McVille PDs with the various sheriff and/or municipality PDs (depending on circumstances) and thus use the economies of scale to fix the problem.

A federal police system would not fix anything, if the FBI is anything to go by it would only make things worse. What we need is a way to get a court order to prosecute though a lawsuit against the state that only applies government officials, and a mandate that government officials be punished more severely than civilians.

 

[Aaron Fox]

A look at the map tells me that Minneapolis isn't exactly some hick one-horse town in the Deep South, Aaron.

The problem still remains sadly. The biggest problem with the US police force is that it isn't a police force but police forces, this is where installing a federal/national police comes in. One overarching set of training standards, one overarching standard of conduct, so on and so forth. Consolidating police departments is to ensure that no department gets left behind as it were.

 

[Husky_Khan]

As a lukewarm Conservative I'm pretty skeptical of the Federal Government assuming control of all law enforcement directly in an effort to curb government abuse of power.

And national standards... lol. Like No Cop Left Behind?

 

[Aaron Fox]

As a lukewarm Conservative I'm pretty skeptical of the Federal Government assuming control of all law enforcement directly in an effort to curb government abuse of power.

And national standards... lol. Like No Cop Left Behind?

The thing is that at this point, nothing less is going to be viable. You'll have to use the vast resources of the government to ensure that the idiots don't join up, ensure that every cop knows things like de-escalation, among a laundry list of things. To rebuild the trust of the police, you'll have to throw the resources of the federal government at the problem.

Also, rights and freedoms are fluid societal constructs, not rigid ones. Constructs that are heavily dependent on technology, how bad actors exploit them, and the ability of enforcement. Speech and information are going to be restricted whether we want it or not, just like privacy is going to die an ugly death one way or another.

 

[Doomsought]

The thing is that at this point, nothing less is going to be viable.

Or just a federal statute requiring mandatory criminal prosecution when someone wins a lawsuit against the cops.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Or just a federal statute requiring mandatory criminal prosecution when someone wins a lawsuit against the cops.

Holding cops to a higher standard by making sure they remember that they will also have even worse consequences for the laws they preserve sounds kinda scary

Still, better than a “solution” that accidentally or unintentionally makes them way stronger and with more possible bureaucracy and a long chain of command

But really, putting your trust in the police means giving them power, I think these guys in this vid pic



Are smart to not put so much trust over some idealized Philosopher King system and instead be ready to fight for and defend themselves

 

[Abhorsen]

The problem still remains sadly. The biggest problem with the US police force is that it isn't a police force but police forces, this is where installing a federal/national police comes in. One overarching set of training standards, one overarching standard of conduct, so on and so forth. Consolidating police departments is to ensure that no department gets left behind as it were.

Nope. I'm not giving up federalism for 'my safety'. That way lies losing all your rights.

 

[LordsFire]

The thing is that at this point, nothing less is going to be viable. You'll have to use the vast resources of the government to ensure that the idiots don't join up, ensure that every cop knows things like de-escalation, among a laundry list of things. To rebuild the trust of the police, you'll have to throw the resources of the federal government at the problem.

Also, rights and freedoms are fluid societal constructs, not rigid ones. Constructs that are heavily dependent on technology, how bad actors exploit them, and the ability of enforcement. Speech and information are going to be restricted whether we want it or not, just like privacy is going to die an ugly death one way or another.

I'm not sure whether this is more amusing or chilling.

And I'm not sure what about it is more so, that you're so blind to the problems with economies of scale that you don't realize trying to federalize the police would make the problems worse, not better, or that you think attempting to nationalize the police wouldn't result in either the administration attempting it being immediately ejected from power, or a civil war.

That you think rights and freedoms are fluid societal constructs is just sad.

 

[Battlegrinder]

The thing is that at this point, nothing less is going to be viable. You'll have to use the vast resources of the government to ensure that the idiots don't join up, ensure that every cop knows things like de-escalation, among a laundry list of things. To rebuild the trust of the police, you'll have to throw the resources of the federal government at the problem.

I've yet to see any convincing evidence that police misconduct is sufficiently widespread that such a solution is warranted. And in the absence of such evidence, it seems far more likely that the root cause is that partisans are using isolated incidents to create a narrative that others buy into, and so we get disasters like this in response to minor incidents.

Like, there are people running around right now proclaiming that calling the cops on a black person should be viewed as attempted murder, because the narrative has warped their perception to the point that they apparently believe that it's entirely reasonable to say that black people are killed by police so often any encounter with police carries a substantial risk of death. That's transparently absurd, but it's something I've seen time and time again with increasing support and increasingly little pushback. And I can't imagine that the only result of this relentless anti-cop narrative has been idiots staying stupid things on the internet.

If you make people stop jumping in to make things worse every time there's an incident, turning every local problem into a national issue and raising tensions for no good reason, that'll probably solve a lot of issues. If you want to rebuild trust in the police, start by muzzling the people telling people that cops can't be trusted.

 

[Marduk]

The problem still remains sadly. The biggest problem with the US police force is that it isn't a police force but police forces, this is where installing a federal/national police comes in. One overarching set of training standards, one overarching standard of conduct, so on and so forth. Consolidating police departments is to ensure that no department gets left behind as it were.

The problem with that is how different the regions of USA are, in terms of politics, urban/rural geography, funding availability, and crime amount or composition. Following that, their needs, preferences and priorities they would put on all these things are similarly different.
Good luck getting California, Nebraska and New Hampshire to agree what those behavior and use of force standards should be.
Good luck getting New York, Michigan and Texas to agree how expensive the training should be and what should be given priority in it.
Good luck getting rural and urban police departments to have the same challenges and solutions to them.
The end result will be that either political fights happen on it and the states that lose them get royally screwed on it, creating lasting grudges, or compromises are made in which everyone is angry because they are forced to do things in a way not optimal for themselves just as means of centralization for centralization's sake.

 

[Doomsought]

Aaron has always wanted to nationalize police, it is his pet cause.

 

[Largo]

Aaron has always wanted to nationalize everything, it is his pet cause.

Corrected your post for you. :V

 

[f1onagher]

Because of this thing called 'economies of scale'. Basically, bigger is better as it were. People don't like this but it is a part of our reality.

Meanwhile in reality the CIA has just proven that the CIA has no connection to the international drug trade. Pull the other one, its got bells on it. Centralizing power only reduces the number of people needed to corrupt and control something and massively expands the damage that organization can do. More government is not a universal fix-all, sometimes problems have to be fixed the hard way.

The problem with public-sector unions is that there are no consequences for malfeasance. A private-sector union goes down with their industry if they parasite off of it too much. Public unions feed off of the taxpayer dime and so long as the politicians are kept bribed they will never face any consequences for their actions because we will always need cops, firefighters, teachers, etc. These groups should be accountable to the citizenry but are instead insulated from the unwashed masses by unions that pursue their own interest, frequently at the expense of the people that pay for them. Bluntly put using taxpayer money to lobby should be illegal as it is incestuous.

With the current case, there does need to be a law, preferably state but federal will work if needed, that mandates that police be held to at least the same criminal standards as the average citizen. That will never happen so long as the police unions buy out half the political apparatus using the same money they're supposed to be using to police better.

 

[Doomsought]

With the current case, there does need to be a law, preferably state but federal will work if needed, that mandates that police be held to at least the same criminal standards as the average citizen.

Federal statute for mandatory criminal prosecution after a successful 1983 lawsuit, with provisions agianst granting imunity by statute citing the tittles and nobility clause, under penalty of insurrection (worded in such a way that suddenly it becomes fair game to shoot your police if you don't prosecute them, with the trials of such falling under the jurisdiciton of military court). I think this woudl be a 1-3 page statute to get everything in place.