Design an A-10 Replacement

[Doomsought]

What would a proper A-10 replacement look like?

We know what it is not: A strike fighter. The A-10 is a fixed wing gunship. Its main armament is a high-powered auto-cannon supplemented by bomb munitions. The bird is very good at here job, which isn't just destroying armored vehicles but also shock and awe. But she is getting old and her electrical systems aren't able to support much further modernization.

 

[Knowledgeispower]

What would a proper A-10 replacement look like?

We know what it is not: A strike fighter. The A-10 is a fixed wing gunship. Its main armament is a high-powered auto-cannon supplemented by bomb munitions. The bird is very good at here job, which isn't just destroying armored vehicles but also shock and awe. But she is getting old and her electrical systems aren't able to support much further modernization.

basically build an A-10 with some stealth features, modern electronics, a crapload of EW/ECM systems, and you're good

 

[Doomsought]

basically build an A-10 with some stealth features, modern electronics, a crapload of EW/ECM systems, and you're good

Do you think something like the Trophy anti-missile system would be worth the weight? The mission profile puts it well within line of sight targetting, passive and active stealth can only do so much at that point.

 

[Knowledgeispower]

Do you think something like the Trophy anti-missile system would be worth the weight? The mission profile puts it well within line of sight targetting, passive and active stealth can only do so much at that point.

The problem with fitting something like Trophy is that no airplane will ever carry enough armor over enough of its surface area to protect itself from an explosion going off on its surface

 

[SuperS4]

There is no proper A-10 replacement; it's a functional dead-end. The A-10 is outperformed in the current mission it carries out by pretty much everything else. And it can't perform it's originally designed roll at all.

Functionally, unless technology makes leaps and bounds, they're done. No amount of modern electronics will save it. It flies too low and too slow(which was it's selling point for that it does) to make it survivable against near peer opponents, let along against true peer opponents. It's a waste of money making a replacement for it that isn't simply either a UCAV(for it's insane loiter), or a fast-mover that can lob high precision maneuvering munitions at targets from miles away; well outside of MANPAD range.

 

[Doomsought]

The problem with fitting something like Trophy is that no airplane will ever carry enough armor over enough of its surface area to protect itself from an explosion going off on its surface

The goal of well designed armor is never to protect everything, it is to protect enough. Several existing strike fighters have an aerodynamic fusalauge and enoguh control surfaces to be able to make a safe landing minus a full wing.

There is no proper A-10 replacement; it's a functional dead-end.

That is not a valid, or even relevant argument. We are talking about the design of the hypothetical replacement that does not exist yet.

 

[SuperS4]

That is not a valid, or even relevant argument. We are talking about the design of the hypothetical replacement that does not exist yet.

Then the argument being put forth is asinine; there is nothing we currently have that would allow a replacement to be made for the A-10 to actually be of any use.

Sure, I can say "slap some x,y,z on it", but it's still going to be shit at the job you want it to do. Because it's not a job for a fixed wing aircraft that flies low and slow.

They've literally started replacing the A-10, it's called precision munitions lobbed from Reapers and various other fixed-wing assets. The niche the A-10 holds, holds solely because people won't allow it to go away. It doesn't do that job better then other assets. Any attempt to make a "replacement" is just going to be a money sink when you have other platforms capable of doing the required job, from a safer altitude so they don't fly back to base with fist sized holes punched out of it.

So fine, my idea, a proper replacement for an A-10? A UCAV with extreme loiter ability, with good stand-off range from MANPADs as well as an elctro-optical suite capable of IDing targets from relevant altitude. The ability to talk to the ground in real time for designation. And the ability to launch high precision, high maneuverable munitions to take out said targets.

Done. It will be cheaper then the A-10, and perform the roll it's been shoehorned into better.

 

[wellis]

The only reason to have an A-10 replacement is really because A-10 pilots focus on ground attack and ground support missions and piloting.

But beyond that, there is little else it is good for nowadays mostly because PGMs have become a thing.

What the Air Force apparently needs to do is train its multi-mission pilots better on the ground support targeting aspect.

 

[paulobrito]

To be fair, UAVs also can't survive against a moderately advanced/equipped enemy. They only work - like the A-10 - in a very permissive environment.
Anyone with a decent EW/ECM capability supplemented by a system like the Pantsir or BUK can negate UAVs all day long.

 

[Zachowon]

There is no proper A-10 replacement; it's a functional dead-end. The A-10 is outperformed in the current mission it carries out by pretty much everything else. And it can't perform it's originally designed roll at all.

Functionally, unless technology makes leaps and bounds, they're done. No amount of modern electronics will save it. It flies too low and too slow(which was it's selling point for that it does) to make it survivable against near peer opponents, let along against true peer opponents. It's a waste of money making a replacement for it that isn't simply either a UCAV(for it's insane loiter), or a fast-mover that can lob high precision maneuvering munitions at targets from miles away; well outside of MANPAD range.

Most non SAM munitions barring MANPADS are not going to be the best at one shot hitting a plane as armored as the A-10. Unlike helicopters, which all non MANPADS will devistate anyway, the A-10 has a faster speed then the helicopter, and flies fast enough to escape nin radar guided munitions (FC and TT/TA for non SAMS are not the best).

You have to take into account the aspects that most don't when you look into the aspect of these things, RADARS and the like. MANPADS are also not as effective as people think they are.

The one area of things I know is ELINT and its effectiveness on American hardware, and what works best against what. it is literally my job...

 

[Doomsought]

Also flight nape of earth can make the horizon line very close. If you have computer assistance for flight nape of earth, technology I'd be surprised if it doesn't already exist, you can combine a speed and short viable engagement ranges to drastically minimize available engagement times.

Low altatude flight is a form of stealth all on its own, the oldest kind of stealth aircraft have available to them, which can combine well with newer active and passive stealth features.

 

[Zachowon]

Also flight nape of earth can make the horizon line very close. If you have computer assistance for flight nape of earth, technology I'd be surprised if it doesn't already exist, you can combine a speed and short viable engagement ranges to drastically minimize available engagement times.

Low altatude flight is a form of stealth all on its own, the oldest kind of stealth aircraft have available to them, which can combine well with newer active and passive stealth features.

Look at what helicopters do when doing attack runs. they hide behind trees or hills and pop up to attack

 

[Doomsought]

Look at what helicopters do when doing attack runs. they hide behind trees or hills and pop up to attack

We've also long ago managed to baffling engines so that they can be quiet on a low altitude flyby. The B-2 is an old bird now and I'm sure we can make a smaller plane even quieter. With manpads as your main threat, sight and sound are just as if not more important than radar. If a grunt has to spend a few seconds wondering who is making tea before he realizes it is a jet he is hearing, that can be the entire difference between boom and zoom.

 

[Zachowon]

We've also long ago managed to baffling engines so that they can be quiet on a low altitude flyby. The B-2 is an old bird now and I'm sure we can make a smaller plane even quieter. With manpads as your main threat, sight and sound are just as if not more important than radar. If a grunt has to spend a few seconds wondering who is making tea before he realizes it is a jet he is hearing, that can be the entire difference between boom and zoom.

A-10s already flt where you hear them before you see them and by the time you see them they are already past you

 

[Morphic Tide]

My main thought is going for sort of a jet-based tiltrotor-like system in a heavily stealth-formed airframe capable of transsonic or low-mach speeds for getting in and out of the engagement zone as the situation demands, basically try to form it around being quite usable in the role of an attack helicopter for prolonged support on an airframe able to zoom out of the area if the situation changes.

Ideally it'd be large enough to have a fuselage bay that works for carrying a squad in full kit without issue that more usually acts as a missile bay, so as to double down on rolling the A-10 and attack helicopter roles together, but fitting that alongside the measures needed for the Hand Of Brrt to go properly is apparently a very difficult task.

Speaking of the Brrt, I'd probably change to a lower fire rate but better recoil managing gun, or up to 40mm, to try and fit the partially guided shells as effectively as possible to greatly reduce ammunition expenditures to have the hovering suppression use-case play much more on fuel requirements than anything else.

Weirdest idea that probably doesn't pan out well is giving it decoy wings, where it has highly visible areas at the extremities of control surfaces to enormously mislead any automated targeting to force anything that can track it to hit what it can survive without. Possibly go so far as to having a lifting body so that it can flat-out have no wings and still go back to base in good time.

Or, in short, a deliberately somewhat slow but hard to outright kill stealth "fighter-bomber" based around passably actively fighting on VTOL settings, to be able to zoom in, slow down to sit in the combat area, and shoot at everything that comes up until either it's out of ammo, low on fuel, at enormous risk from the changed situation since its arrival, or needs to go support somewhere else, and able to sit behind a hill waiting to take off straight up right next to the fighting if the environment is permissive.

 

[Aldarion]

There is no proper A-10 replacement; it's a functional dead-end. The A-10 is outperformed in the current mission it carries out by pretty much everything else. And it can't perform it's originally designed roll at all.

Functionally, unless technology makes leaps and bounds, they're done. No amount of modern electronics will save it. It flies too low and too slow(which was it's selling point for that it does) to make it survivable against near peer opponents, let along against true peer opponents. It's a waste of money making a replacement for it that isn't simply either a UCAV(for it's insane loiter), or a fast-mover that can lob high precision maneuvering munitions at targets from miles away; well outside of MANPAD range.

US Army is spending millions to modernize Apache, which is lower-flying, slower-flying, less armoured and less lethal than A-10. So why not give A-10 to the Army and let them decide on how relevant it is?

 

[Panzerkraken]

@Aldarion
Because millions won't cover converting an airframe to the Army. And like it or not, those appropriations have to go through the joint chiefs, the HASC, SASC, and then be approved in the NDAA, all of which means that it's actually cheaper to retire an airframe than to send it to a different service. Also, the Apache is every bit as loved in the Army as the A-10 is. We don't want to see either one leave.

On the fictional side of it, I'm very entertained by the idea of the A-01 Blitz from Cyberpunk 2020 which is, pretty much as was mentioned upstream here, just an A-10 with a third engine (centerline), updated electronics, and a slightly modified wing geometry. See here for the exact same details you'd find in Maximum Metal.

 

[Doomsought]

On the fictional side of it, I'm very entertained by the idea of the A-01 Blitz from Cyberpunk 2020 which is, pretty much as was mentioned upstream here, just an A-10 with a third engine (centerline), updated electronics, and a slightly modified wing geometry. See here for the exact same details you'd find in Maximum Metal.

That design seems to be a bit lazy, just strapping an engine on the existing plane.

A modern air-frame for an A-10 replacement would have a blockier body with internal engines for stealth, though the engines will still be above the wings for low altitude stealth features. It would keep the strait wings because its kingdom is low and relatively slow.

 

[AnimalNoodles]

Youse just takes it, yous adds some bigga enjins to makes it go fasta, youse add bigga shootas and bombz to give it more dakka and youse makes it nice and shiny and red. Dats all youse needs ta do.

 

[Jormungandr]

As others have said, drones have pretty much replaced the A-10. The only real reason it's still around is a) inertia and 'fanboyism' from certain elements in the US armed forces, and b) it's useful against opponents in the Middle-East that use 60's or 70's era Soviet equipment and ad-hoc military solutions (like technicals and gun-trucks)... which the A-10 was designed to blow the shit out of anyway, when it was first envisioned.

Honestly, it'd be more useful against the Cartels in Mexico and South America, if they had targets.