Breaking News Discussion on EchoChambers, Religion and Origins of the 2020 Civil Strife

Bacle

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As much as we bitch about echochambers on the left, I cannot help but feel this place is developing one of its own in regards to why people left of center think how they do.

Because I can tell you, @Lord Invictus doesn't really understand the other side, and is giving you all a false impression he understands them.

I've had to have the same conversations with people on the left who think they understand how those right of center think.

White guilt is part of it, but it is also just part of a desire to help others regardless of race. Conservative do that via private charity, liberals do it via government programs; both can be effective, if done right.

Also, treating religion as a panacea, and lack of it as the source of all problems, is completely and utterly the wrong way to try to understand why those left of center believe as they do. It is operating on an axiom they do not hold too, thus missing critical bits of understanding.

Now if all you want is echochambers and false impressions of the other side, keep listening to Invictus and the like.
 

Zachowon

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As much as we bitch about echochambers on the left, I cannot help but feel this place is developing one of its own in regards to why people left of center think how they do.

Because I can tell you, @Lord Invictus doesn't really understand the other side, and is giving you all a false impression he understands them.

I've had to have the same conversations with people on the left who think they understand how those right of center think.

White guilt is part of it, but it is also just part of a desire to help others regardless of race. Conservative do that via private charity, liberals do it via government programs; both can be effective, if done right.

Also, treating religion as a panacea, and lack of it as the source of all problems, is completely and utterly the wrong way to try to understand why those left of center believe as they do. It is operating on an axiom they do not hold too, thus missing critical bits of understanding.

Now if all you want is echochambers and false impressions of the other side, keep listening to Invictus and the like.
Religion is an iffy thing, as Morality is generally tied to it, and as a Heretic that I am, No one religion has no sense of Morality. So generally having a religion stears one on a morale path that thier religion follows. Besides that you have a decent point. Religion is not the only way one can have Morales.

If you wonder why I am a heretic this is not the thread for it


Nah, we're ANTI fascists, maaaaan. YOU'RE the fascist. Anyway, you know how there's that snake, that's all about freedom not being tread upon? LOL, Let's literally strangle the snake and tread on the freedom again, we're ANTI fascists! How could you be against us? We're the good guys, like the Harry Potter gang and you're Darth Vader!

(also, I'd like to see them try)
If we are Darth vader and they are Harry potter gang...well lets hope thier necks are reenforced~
 

CarlManvers2019

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Religion is an iffy thing, as Morality is generally tied to it, and as a Heretic that I am, No one religion has no sense of Morality. So generally having a religion stears one on a morale path that thier religion follows. Besides that you have a decent point. Religion is not the only way one can have Morales.
Religion, I think, only REALLY becomes a gateway to being more Moral when aside from reading the creation story texts, Ten Commandments and other stuff. You look up all those philosophical, theological and strange scientific stuff being added on the side combined with debates that even heavily analyze and try to find new meanings in those old texts

I'm glad we're not all an echo chamber, hell I'm sorta expecting a Civil War between Religious Right types with more Socially Liberal-Right types

That said, I will say this....people want higher causes. Media and Academia has for so long depicted the Far Left as being the "underdogs" and everybody wants to be a "hero" and everybody wants to be "unique"....doing all this "bending the knee" and such is sorta making em all look like "heroes" fighting some great oppressor

Can you take away that feeling? That feeling of being a righteous REBEL who sees the world to be against him? You can't.

These guys are a part of something "greater" than themselves and they get approval from others, this approval is worth more than sex, worth more than money, worth more than life

People can get drunk on this feeling.....though strangely enough, I don't think there are any ultra-charismatic figures around who can make speeches full of "passion" to control these dudes
 

almostinsane

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As much as we bitch about echochambers on the left, I cannot help but feel this place is developing one of its own in regards to why people left of center think how they do.

Because I can tell you, @Lord Invictus doesn't really understand the other side, and is giving you all a false impression he understands them.

I've had to have the same conversations with people on the left who think they understand how those right of center think.

White guilt is part of it, but it is also just part of a desire to help others regardless of race. Conservative do that via private charity, liberals do it via government programs; both can be effective, if done right.

Also, treating religion as a panacea, and lack of it as the source of all problems, is completely and utterly the wrong way to try to understand why those left of center believe as they do. It is operating on an axiom they do not hold too, thus missing critical bits of understanding.

Now if all you want is echochambers and false impressions of the other side, keep listening to Invictus and the like.
Certainly, the majority of the Left is not like this. Yet, the radical fringe that does see whiteness as some sort of original sin does exist and they are not called out by the Left. In fact, their influence is growing. There is also definitely a religious compulsion in these privilege rituals...

I'm sure your leftist friends aren't like this. Hopefully if you show them these sorts of things, it will galvanize them to push back against this extremism on the local level or walk away from this nonsense entirely.
 

LifeisTiresome

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White guilt is part of it, but it is also just part of a desire to help others regardless of race.
This part I call bullshit. Its false. They want to help specific races that they deem must need help and protection and scorn everyone else.

And even if you are of said race, if you are in the west, you must support their policies otherwise your an Uncle Tom for example.
 

S'task

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As much as we bitch about echochambers on the left, I cannot help but feel this place is developing one of its own in regards to why people left of center think how they do.

Because I can tell you, @Lord Invictus doesn't really understand the other side, and is giving you all a false impression he understands them.

I've had to have the same conversations with people on the left who think they understand how those right of center think.

White guilt is part of it, but it is also just part of a desire to help others regardless of race. Conservative do that via private charity, liberals do it via government programs; both can be effective, if done right.

Also, treating religion as a panacea, and lack of it as the source of all problems, is completely and utterly the wrong way to try to understand why those left of center believe as they do. It is operating on an axiom they do not hold too, thus missing critical bits of understanding.

Now if all you want is echochambers and false impressions of the other side, keep listening to Invictus and the like.
I both agree and disagree with your assessment here.

I think you are right concerning the center left of America. They really aren't motivated by this religious type aspect of the Social Justice Cult, they are motivated by empathy and compassion, as well as a good bit of tribalism*.

That said, the center-left isn't the one driving the Democratic Party and the Progressive movement in the US, and hasn't for decades. The last time the center left was truly in power in the Democratic Party was in the 90s under Bill Clinton and that was done more or less under protests due to the repudiation of far left politics that was the '94 Republican Revolution.

What this means is that when combined with the tribalism of people that many on the center left are going along with the worst impulses of the far left because they see them as being on "their team" and in opposition to the "other team". You're right in that they're not thinking about White Guilt or treating the Social Justice movement as a new religion, they're just going along and supporting their team and not thinking deeply about what they're doing.

(As an aside: this does happen on the right as well, but in this moment we're not really dealing with a massive and somewhat extreme movement on the right, the right's reaction to this mess has been very much in line with their normal political alignment.)

The far left progressive movement though has become very cult like and does appear to be supplanting politics and their political ideas FOR religion. And that's something to be very concerned with.

-----------------
* I mean, humans are inherently tribalistic creatures who form teams and try and tear down the rival team over things much less important than politics (see sports). As such we really shouldn't underestimate the level of influence this has over people, especially given the highly polarized media environment that people now find themselves in.
 

GoldRanger

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As much as we bitch about echochambers on the left, I cannot help but feel this place is developing one of its own in regards to why people left of center think how they do.

Because I can tell you, @Lord Invictus doesn't really understand the other side, and is giving you all a false impression he understands them.

I've had to have the same conversations with people on the left who think they understand how those right of center think.

White guilt is part of it, but it is also just part of a desire to help others regardless of race. Conservative do that via private charity, liberals do it via government programs; both can be effective, if done right.

Also, treating religion as a panacea, and lack of it as the source of all problems, is completely and utterly the wrong way to try to understand why those left of center believe as they do. It is operating on an axiom they do not hold too, thus missing critical bits of understanding.

Now if all you want is echochambers and false impressions of the other side, keep listening to Invictus and the like.
This seems fair, but it doesn't explain what's happening right now. How wanting to help people in need translates into support for looting, kneeling and washing black people's feet, and wanting to disband rather than reform the police? And why is that impulse to help people so incredibly selective?
 

Lord Invictus

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As much as we bitch about echochambers on the left, I cannot help but feel this place is developing one of its own in regards to why people left of center think how they do.

Because I can tell you, @Lord Invictus doesn't really understand the other side, and is giving you all a false impression he understands them.

I've had to have the same conversations with people on the left who think they understand how those right of center think.

White guilt is part of it, but it is also just part of a desire to help others regardless of race. Conservative do that via private charity, liberals do it via government programs; both can be effective, if done right.

Also, treating religion as a panacea, and lack of it as the source of all problems, is completely and utterly the wrong way to try to understand why those left of center believe as they do. It is operating on an axiom they do not hold too, thus missing critical bits of understanding.

Now if all you want is echochambers and false impressions of the other side, keep listening to Invictus and the like.
Bacle, your taking what they tell you as good coin. If you actually read their literature, their articles, periodicals, and tumblr blog posts, then what I am saying will become self evidently true.

I know you are coming from a place of sincerity here, but your also extremely naive and seem to think you know more than you do. What your left of center friends tel you is not what they actually believe. Or it’s a very softened watered down version.

I don’t take a word they say as being in good faith except as it pertains to the sincerity of their malicious intent. That is the proper course for understanding these people, taking them as good faith debaters plays right into their hands which is exactly what your doing.
 

Bacle

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I both agree and disagree with your assessment here.

I think you are right concerning the center left of America. They really aren't motivated by this religious type aspect of the Social Justice Cult, they are motivated by empathy and compassion, as well as a good bit of tribalism*.

That said, the center-left isn't the one driving the Democratic Party and the Progressive movement in the US, and hasn't for decades. The last time the center left was truly in power in the Democratic Party was in the 90s under Bill Clinton and that was done more or less under protests due to the repudiation of far left politics that was the '94 Republican Revolution.

What this means is that when combined with the tribalism of people that many on the center left are going along with the worst impulses of the far left because they see them as being on "their team" and in opposition to the "other team". You're right in that they're not thinking about White Guilt or treating the Social Justice movement as a new religion, they're just going along and supporting their team and not thinking deeply about what they're doing.

(As an aside: this does happen on the right as well, but in this moment we're not really dealing with a massive and somewhat extreme movement on the right, the right's reaction to this mess has been very much in line with their normal political alignment.)

The far left progressive movement though has become very cult like and does appear to be supplanting politics and their political ideas FOR religion. And that's something to be very concerned with.

-----------------
* I mean, humans are inherently tribalistic creatures who form teams and try and tear down the rival team over things much less important than politics (see sports). As such we really shouldn't underestimate the level of influence this has over people, especially given the highly polarized media environment that people now find themselves in.
The problem is that people like Invictus and others keep thinking anyone left of center is Far Left, while giving a pass to the problems on the right or just refusing to call them out.

And harping on the religion/lack of religion angle like he and other conservative do just alienates other people in the center, who feel like Conservatives just want a Christian theocracy under guise of 'family/traditional values'.

Particularly when it comes from Southern's who still think the Confederate flag and moments belong in public and aren't the symbols of traitors.
 
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Bacle

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Sorry for double posting.
This seems fair, but it doesn't explain what's happening right now. How wanting to help people in need translates into support for looting, kneeling and washing black people's feet, and wanting to disband rather than reform the police? And why is that impulse to help people so incredibly selective?
Because the problem is that they don't feel people are upset enough about George Floyd's murder, and see the rioting/looting as a natural outgrowth of peaceful protests by the oppressed. Many may be doing it because of pressure, but many have been heavily indoctrinated into the Left's oppression Olympics.

And conservatives have not done themselves any favors by sheltering ethno-nationalists in our groups.
Bacle, your taking what they tell you as good coin. If you actually read their literature, their articles, periodicals, and tumblr blog posts, then what I am saying will become self evidently true.

I know you are coming from a place of sincerity here, but your also extremely naive and seem to think you know more than you do. What your left of center friends tel you is not what they actually believe. Or it’s a very softened watered down version.

I don’t take a word they say as being in good faith except as it pertains to the sincerity of their malicious intent. That is the proper course for understanding these people, taking them as good faith debaters plays right into their hands which is exactly what your doing.
You do not know shit about these people, so don't pretend you do.

I know the literature, I know all that shit, and guess what, I know how to counter it. At least till people like you get involved, then most of that work goes down the drain because you don't care about healing, only hating the other side and protecting momuments to slavers and traitors.

Frankly if you Southern Whites would STFU for a few generations and accepted the South were traitors in the Civil War, it'd being doing the rest of the country a massive favor.
 

Lord Invictus

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Sorry for double posting.Because the problem is that they don't feel people are upset enough about George Floyd's murder, and see the rioting/looting as a natural outgrowth of peaceful protests by the oppressed. Many may be doing it because of pressure, but many have been heavily indoctrinated into the Left's oppression Olympics.

And conservatives have not done themselves any favors by sheltering ethno-nationalists in our groups.
You do not know shit about these people, so don't pretend you do.

I know the literature, I know all that shit, and guess what, I know how to counter it. At least till people like you get involved, then most of that work goes down the drain because you don't care about healing, only hating the other side and protecting momuments to slavers and traitors.

Frankly if you Southern Whites would STFU for a few generations and accepted the South were traitors in the Civil War, it'd being doing the rest of the country a massive favor.
Dude, I went to college. I’ve read enough slate articles, Root articles, and insights from Higher Education that I know exactly what I am talking about.

Healing isn’t possible! These people want you and me dead or subservient. Preferably the latter. Stop giving them the moral legitimacy they desire. Did you see the recent twitter post about how feeling safe in your own home is privilege? These people can not be reasoned with, empathy with them is futile and defeatist. They should only be crushed politically.

Um okay? No one brought up the south, or the confederacy except you. And few southerners are willing to go on a limb and say the confederacy was righteous-if only due to enforced social ostracism. Also if your going to play that silly card, acknowledge we are all traitors to the crown of England.
 

LordsFire

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The problem is that people like Invictus and others keep thinking anyone left of center is Far Left, while giving a pass to the problems on the right or just refusing to call them out.

And harping on the religion/lack of religion angle like he and other conservative do just alienates other people in the center, who feel like Conservatives just want a Christian theocracy under guise of 'family/traditional values'.
Particularly when it comes from Southern's who still think the Confederate flag and moments belong in public and aren't the symbols of traitors.
What problems with the right? I'm legit curious as to what problems you see on the right that aren't getting called out.

Do recall, the reason for this thread is because a city that has been dominated by the left since 1970, in a state that has been dominated by the left since at least the 80's (only state Reagan didn't win in his re-election IIRC). I cannot think of a single major political problem in the US that wasn't primarily caused by Democrats, though on a number (War on Drugs) the Republicans have certainly helped them out with.

There's a whole thread's worth of discussion on the religion issue. To keep from a complete derail, I'll just say that if people in the 'center left' can't handle religious people talking about a matter in a way that corresponds to them actually believing their religion is true, then these 'center left' people aren't as 'center' as you and they think.
 

Bacle

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Dude, I went to college. I’ve read enough slate articles, Root articles, and insights from Higher Education that I know exactly what I am talking about.

Healing isn’t possible! These people want you and me dead or subservient. Preferably the latter. Stop giving them the moral legitimacy they desire. Did you see the recent twitter post about how feeling safe in your own home is privilege? These people can not be reasoned with, empathy with them is futile and defeatist. They should only be crushed politically.

Um okay? No one brought up the south, or the confederacy except you. And few southerners are willing to go on a limb and say the confederacy was righteous-if only due to enforced social ostracism. Also if your going to play that silly card, acknowledge we are all traitors to the crown of England.
They do not want you or me dead, at least the ones I'm talking about. They are good people who have blinders on, and have been heavily indoctrinated.

And guess what, I went to a liberal arts school to get my General Geology degree, I know very fucking well what goes on there. I'm a lone consrvative/centrist in a very liberal area and family, so I know very well what this situation is caused by.

You however just spout hysterics and do not want to heal, which makes you my enemy, as surely as Antifa is.

And I will explain why I brought up the Confederacy.
What problems with the right? I'm legit curious as to what problems you see on the right that aren't getting called out.

Do recall, the reason for this thread is because a city that has been dominated by the left since 1970, in a state that has been dominated by the left since at least the 80's (only state Reagan didn't win in his re-election IIRC). I cannot think of a single major political problem in the US that wasn't primarily caused by Democrats, though on a number (War on Drugs) the Republicans have certainly helped them out with.

There's a whole thread's worth of discussion on the religion issue. To keep from a complete derail, I'll just say that if people in the 'center left' can't handle religious people talking about a matter in a way that corresponds to them actually believing their religion is true, then these 'center left' people aren't as 'center' as you and they think.
Problems with the right are as follows:

1) Very easy to be mistaken for wanting a Christian theocracy. This is a big issue, and part of why so little progress is made. Your religion is for you, not for you to force or try to push on others.

2) Confederate baggage since the Dixiecrats merged in. Taking down Confederate monuments to be put in a museum instead of keeping them in public view should not be so controversial.

3) Free market worship by some. I really shouldn't need to explain why this is dumb given what Twitter and other private groups have done to conservatives.

4) Worship 'small gov'; the old joke that conservatives want government small enough to strangle or be in someone's bedroom doesn't seem so funny now.

5) Ethnonationalist, full stop.
 

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Problems with the right are as follows:

1) Very easy to be mistaken for wanting a Christian theocracy. This is a big issue, and part of why so little progress is made. Your religion is for you, not for you to force or try to push on others.
There has been no push for Theocracy by the Republican party, or any other substantial Conservative organization, ever. This is literally just leftist propaganda trying to scare people away from Conservatives.
2) Confederate baggage since the Dixiecrats merged in. Taking down Confederate monuments to be put in a museum instead of keeping them in public view should not be so controversial.
The Dixiecrats did not 'merge in.' Two out of the entirety of them shifted parties, and neither was permitted to push their former ideologies within the Republican party again. This is just another pile of leftist lies about the Republicans.
3) Free market worship by some. I really shouldn't need to explain why this is dumb given what Twitter and other private groups have done to conservatives.
You may have something of a point here. The problem with Twitter and other tech giants isn't the free market though, it's them trying to claim to be both publishers and not publishers at the same time.
4) Worship 'small gov'; the old joke that conservatives want government small enough to strangle or be in someone's bedroom doesn't seem so funny now.
...I have no idea what you're getting on about here. If it's in reference to the current riots, remember these are barely not exclusive to Democrat cities.
5) Ethnonationalist, full stop.
Ethnonationalism is not and has never been a part of the right's agenda. There are a few nutjobs who try to push it, and there's been a few more since the left cast them out in the 80's/90's, but they have no traction within the conservative movement, or within the Republican party. The 'Alt Right' started calling themselves that because they were trying to gain traction with people actually on the right, but they've had no success at it. Their actual policies are pretty much exclusively leftist.

Again, the idea that this is a serious problem within the right, is the result of leftist lies.

Just like with Trump, no matter how much the right states its actual principles and openly states they have nothing to do with and will have nothing to do with racism or ethnonationalism, the left (and especially leftist media) will continuously lie about it.

So, of your 5 points, 3 are just repeating leftist lies, one may have some validity, and one I'm not clear on.
 

Duke Nukem

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I don't really think Right wing is as big of problem as the left but there's still the occasional psycho who goes on a killing spree in a synagogue or mosque.
 
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Bacle

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There has been no push for Theocracy by the Republican party, or any other substantial Conservative organization, ever. This is literally just leftist propaganda trying to scare people away from Conservatives.

The Dixiecrats did not 'merge in.' Two out of the entirety of them shifted parties, and neither was permitted to push their former ideologies within the Republican party again. This is just another pile of leftist lies about the Republicans.

You may have something of a point here. The problem with Twitter and other tech giants isn't the free market though, it's them trying to claim to be both publishers and not publishers at the same time.

...I have no idea what you're getting on about here. If it's in reference to the current riots, remember these are barely not exclusive to Democrat cities.

Ethnonationalism is not and has never been a part of the right's agenda. There are a few nutjobs who try to push it, and there's been a few more since the left cast them out in the 80's/90's, but they have no traction within the conservative movement, or within the Republican party. The 'Alt Right' started calling themselves that because they were trying to gain traction with people actually on the right, but they've had no success at it. Their actual policies are pretty much exclusively leftist.

Again, the idea that this is a serious problem within the right, is the result of leftist lies.

Just like with Trump, no matter how much the right states its actual principles and openly states they have nothing to do with and will have nothing to do with racism or ethnonationalism, the left (and especially leftist media) will continuously lie about it.

So, of your 5 points, 3 are just repeating leftist lies, one may have some validity, and one I'm not clear on.
You asked what I, and people who may be in the center/left of center, see as problems in the right.

What you call leftist lies I call real concerns for people on the fence. Because it may seem like those are all lies, but I've seen enough to know thier are kernals of truth to them and not all concerns of the left are illegitimate.

Do you understand that the GOP has an image issue in those areas?

I am trying to help you all understand the other side better, and help them understand you all, but it's increasingly obvious neither side wants to hear what the center thinks, if it doesn't fit thier narrative or goals.
 

LordsFire

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You asked what I, and people who may be in the center/left of center, see as problems in the right.

What you call leftist lies I call real concerns for people on the fence. Because it may seem like those are all lies, but I've seen enough to know thier are kernals of truth to them and not all concerns of the left are illegitimate.

Do you understand that the GOP has an image issue in those areas?

I am trying to help you all understand the orhe side better, and help them understand you all, but it's increasingly obvious neither side wants to hear what the center thinks, if it doesn't fit thier narrative or goals.
I'm perfectly willing to listen to the center, and try to explain the truth to them.

And yes, of course the GOP has an image issue. The overwhelming majority of the media establishment habitually lying about you at the very minimum since WWII ended will certainly give you an image issue.

Just because it's an image issue caused by lies, doesn't mean it's not still an issue.

If the media were controlled by good-faith actors, 'Why is all this violence happening in Democrat-controlled cities?' would be a constant refrain. But the fact that Floyd died in Dem controlled area will go largely unmentioned in the media and on the left, just like all the murders in Chicago every week.

If you'd like to take this issue further, we should probably start a new thread.
 

Harlock

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They have to discount centrists in their march to the extremes, try to push them along to the edges with anger or divisive tactics. Centre left and centre right aren't massively different, but agitators want you to think they are so the centre breaks and the wings take control.

The centre still has the greatest power but at least for now the quietest voice. I don't think it'll be very quiet if there's no law in their cities though.
 

Bacle

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Quite a few people on Both sides see Centrists as either "Idiots" or "fence sitters" sadly.
Yep, because we do not follow either sides ideals dogmatically, and break bubbles on both sides.

It's getting to the point both sides are simply dismissing or ignoring the concerns of centrists as 'lies' simply because we care more about our country than about either sides ideology.
I'm perfectly willing to listen to the center, and try to explain the truth to them.

And yes, of course the GOP has an image issue. The overwhelming majority of the media establishment habitually lying about you at the very minimum since WWII ended will certainly give you an image issue.

Just because it's an image issue caused by lies, doesn't mean it's not still an issue.

If the media were controlled by good-faith actors, 'Why is all this violence happening in Democrat-controlled cities?' would be a constant refrain. But the fact that Floyd died in Dem controlled area will go largely unmentioned in the media and on the left, just like all the murders in Chicago every week.

If you'd like to take this issue further, we should probably start a new thread.
The reason I brought it up in here is because it was becoming an echo chamber in this thread, and outright falsehoods were being spread about why the left thinks as they do. I'll leave it at that.
 
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