Finland's and Sweden's NATO accession following thread.

Zachowon

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And in doing so, we once again have broken promises to another ethnic minority that has been shit on by their neighbors and left them out to dry, outside of their little enclave in Syria.

Acting like every Kurd is a commie might be great for trying to excuse how badly we have treated them, but falls rather short when we look at what happen to the Kurds when they helped us before and what we allowed to happen to them.

Just look at Erdogan's and Turkey's antics towards Greece and Armenia, and tell me they deserve to be in NATO, and not a broken up partitioned relic for history classes to see as an object lesson in not leaving things half-done.

Turks have Turkmenistan for their own nation, send them there and give the land back to the people it actually belongs to.
...Turks and Turkmen are not the same.
Like holy fuck. That is like saying North and South America are the same since they both have America.

And the kurds are, literally the PKK and the groups that fall under it.
Are and classify themselves as "The PKK's ideology was originally a fusion of revolutionary socialism and Marxism–Leninism with Kurdish nationalism, seeking the foundation of an independent Kurdistan."
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
...Turks and Turkmen are not the same.
Like holy fuck. That is like saying North and South America are the same since they both have America.

And the kurds are, literally the PKK and the groups that fall under it.
Are and classify themselves as "The PKK's ideology was originally a fusion of revolutionary socialism and Marxism–Leninism with Kurdish nationalism, seeking the foundation of an independent Kurdistan."
Turk's/Ottoman's ancestors came from Turkmenistan with the Khans.

What is modern Turkey was mostly Greek, Assyrian, and Armenian lands before the Khan's installed the Ottoman's ancestors to rule the place.

At minimum, the west side of the Bosphorus and Constantinople need to be returned to Greece., same with the rest of Cypress.
 

StormEagle

Well-known member
Position 4)

Break up Turkey and partition it off into new/old sections of Greece and Armenia and a Kurdish state.

Destroy the last remnant of Ottoman power, and remove a perennial headache to the region. Constantinople can be Greek again, and Armenia can get the last laugh on the Ataturk and the Sultans. Carve ut a chunk for the Kurds, and no more Ottoman wannabe problems.

…You have learned absolutely nothing from Afghanistan and Iraq.

This also ignores that a good majority of Turks are some flavor of Islamist or ultranationalist, and would likely have something to say about the destruction of their nation.

You’d also have to likely commit to one of the largest scale efforts in ethnic cleansing, if not outright genocide, since WW2 in order to get an anyway peaceful region out of your proposed “solution”. The population exchanges alone would make the aftermath of the Greco-Turkish War look tame.

So say hello to another forever occupation that will make Afghanistan and Vietnam look like walks through a nice park.

This is even dumber than actually invading Iran.

Seriously Bacle, you’re coming off as the strawman parody of a chickenhawk neocon/neoliberal right now. Like an even more deranged John Bolton.
 
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Marduk

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And in doing so, we once again have broken promises to another ethnic minority that has been shit on by their neighbors and left them out to dry, outside of their little enclave in Syria.
What promises? This is Russia "no NATO expansion guarantee" shit from another direction. If it was a promise, it would be in writing, in form of a treaty or something. There was no promise outside of hurraoptimistic imagination of certain parties.
Acting like every Kurd is a commie might be great for trying to excuse how badly we have treated them, but falls rather short when we look at what happen to the Kurds when they helped us before and what we allowed to happen to them.
Kurds helped you mostly in saving themselves. It's them who owe a debt, not the other way around.
Just look at Erdogan's and Turkey's antics towards Greece and Armenia, and tell me they deserve to be in NATO, and not a broken up partitioned relic for history classes to see as an object lesson in not leaving things half-done.
Middle East rules. Armenia... not exactly western ally to say it lightly.
There are plenty of reasons for the West have beef with Erdogan, but Kurds probably don't deserve to be even in the top 3.
As i mentioned before, they ended up on terror watchlists long before Erdogan became el presidente. They were supported by Soviets in the Cold War FFS.
Turks have Turkmenistan for their own nation, send them there and give the land back to the people it actually belongs to.
Turks aren't Turkmen, lol. It's like saying Germans and all Germanic nations are the same.
 
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Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
…You have learned absolutely nothing from Afghanistan and Iraq.

This also ignores that a good majority of Turks are some flavor of Islamist or ultranationalist, and would likely have something to say about the destruction of their nation.

You’d also have to likely commit to one of the largest scale efforts in ethnic cleansing, if not outright genocide, since WW2 in order to get an anyway peaceful region out of you’re proposed “solution”. The population exchanges alone would make the aftermath of the Greco-Turkish War look tame.

So say hello to another forever occupation that will make Afghanistan and Vietnam look like walks through a nice park.

This is even dumber than actually invading Iran.

Seriously Bacle, you’re coming off as the strawman parody of a chickenhawk neocon/neoliberal right now. Like an even more derange John Bolton.
I truly do not give a fuck if I come off as more warhawky than the Walrus of Doom when it comes to Erdogan/the Turks as they play these games over Sweden and Finland.

Turkey, as a nation, is little better in Iran or Syria in my eyes, only slightly better because of aid to Ukraine.

I despise Erdogan and what Turkey has reverted to; they wannabe-Sultan and his/his followers neo-Ottoman dreams are going to be the downfall of NATO if something is not done to convince them this is a very bad course of action.

The Turkmen who pretend to be a separate ethnicity in the nation of 'Turkey' are a lingering mistake of WW1 and the Khans who have been a constant belligerent against Europe and the West sense they arrived in Asia Minor riding with the Khans. This is all historical fact, conveniently ignored because of Cold War politics.

If we do not want to break up Turkey to deal with the snake in the nest, Erdogan has to be convinced to change his outlook, and not just via another round of bribes.
What promises? This is Russia "no NATO expansion guarantee" shit from another direction. If it was a promise, it would be in writing, in form of a treaty or something. There was no promise outside of hurraoptimistic imagination of certain parties.

Kurds helped you mostly in saving themselves. It's them who owe a debt, not the other way around.

Middle East rules. Armenia... not exactly western ally to say it lightly.
There are plenty of reasons for the West have beef with Erdogan, but Kurds probably don't deserve to be even in the top 3.
As i mentioned before, they ended up on terror watchlists long before Erdogan became el presidente. They were supported by Soviets in the Cold War FFS.

Turks aren't Turkmen, lol. It's like saying Germans and all Germanic nations are the same.
As I said, trying to pretend that the people in Turkey are not the descendants of ethnic Turkmen who rode in with the Khans and then were set up to rule the place is ignoring historical fact.

If Erdogan and his followers want to continue to be a pain in NATO's ass, remind them that a lot of NATO still has old and legit beef with the wannabe-successor state/figure to the Ottomans, and that at some point the US may decided to indulge those grudges instead of hold them back, if Erdogan and his faction continue like this.
 

Marduk

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The Turkmen who pretend to be a separate ethnicity in the nation of 'Turkey' are a lingering mistake of WW1 and the Khans who have been a constant belligerent against Europe and the West sense they arrived in Asia Minor riding with the Khans. This is all historical fact, conveniently ignored because of Cold War politics.
If you are willing to go this far, why stop there? By that line of thinking you could pretty much demographically restructure the whole Middle East and North Africa (Arabs to Arabia!), it's just pure fantasy.
If we do not want to break up Turkey to deal with the snake in the nest, Erdogan has to be convinced to change his outlook, and not just via another round of bribes.
As I said, trying to pretend that the people in Turkey are not the descendants of ethnic Turkmen who rode in with the Khans and then were set up to rule the place is ignoring historical fact.
And now you are just making shit up.
If Erdogan and his followers want to continue to be a pain in NATO's ass, remind them that a lot of NATO still has old and legit beef with the wannabe-successor state/figure to the Ottomans, and that at some point the US may decided to indulge those grudges instead of hold them back, if Erdogan and his faction continue like this.
When it comes to Kurds (and some other issues), it's not about Erdogan, far from it. Kemalists had the same policy, and chances are so will whoever comes after Erdogan.
 

King Arts

Well-known member
...Turks and Turkmen are not the same.
Like holy fuck. That is like saying North and South America are the same since they both have America.

And the kurds are, literally the PKK and the groups that fall under it.
Are and classify themselves as "The PKK's ideology was originally a fusion of revolutionary socialism and Marxism–Leninism with Kurdish nationalism, seeking the foundation of an independent Kurdistan."
Are there no Kurdish nationalists who would be willing to purge any communist influence in exchange for us protecting them at say the same level we do Israel?

Turk's/Ottoman's ancestors came from Turkmenistan with the Khans.

What is modern Turkey was mostly Greek, Assyrian, and Armenian lands before the Khan's installed the Ottoman's ancestors to rule the place.

At minimum, the west side of the Bosphorus and Constantinople need to be returned to Greece., same with the rest of Cypress.
Bacle while I agree with helping Greeks and Armenians punish Turks. What you are saying is ridiculous because 800 years ago the Turks migrated into that area they are not the indigenous people? What if someone used that same logic for America oh you all are English migrants and deported you back to England. Hell under your logic you can make the claim that Ukraine is a part of Russia since Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine were all apart of the Kievan Rus so there is nothing wrong with Putin trying to reunite the seperated remnants of his people/race.

…You have learned absolutely nothing from Afghanistan and Iraq.

This also ignores that a good majority of Turks are some flavor of Islamist or ultranationalist, and would likely have something to say about the destruction of their nation.

You’d also have to likely commit to one of the largest scale efforts in ethnic cleansing, if not outright genocide, since WW2 in order to get an anyway peaceful region out of your proposed “solution”. The population exchanges alone would make the aftermath of the Greco-Turkish War look tame.

So say hello to another forever occupation that will make Afghanistan and Vietnam look like walks through a nice park.

This is even dumber than actually invading Iran.

Seriously Bacle, you’re coming off as the strawman parody of a chickenhawk neocon/neoliberal right now. Like an even more deranged John Bolton.
To be fair if it's a properly done ethnic cleansing/genocide it wouldn't be a forever war as anyone who would be against it would be removed. The problem is that westerners are too big of pussies to do that.
 

Airedale260

Well-known member
Destroying the last legacy of the Ottomans and removing the wannabe-Sultan's dreams would do NATO and the west a lot of good, and help Greece reclaim control of the Bosphorus. It would also allow the reuniting of Cypress.
If Turkey is partitioned/returned to Greece, Armenia, and a new Kurdish state, then Turkey's relevance to NATO and Erdogan's wishes are moot.

By your logic, we should get rid of the countries Americas because our ancestors originally came from Europe. Because the Turks (that is, what we know as the Turkish people today) have been there a hell of a lot longer than Europeans have been in the Americas.

Other than the occasional Greek nationalist who fantasizes about re-establishing the Roman Empire (it wasn’t called “Byzantium” until the 19th century because prior to that, and especially prior to the 16th century, it was just “The Roman Empire).”

The Armenians aren’t exactly friendly to U.S. interests; if anything they’re closely aligned to the Russians. You seriously want to strengthen a Russian ally?

As for the Kurds, as others have said, they were allies of convenience (much as the USSR was during World War II). They tend to get portrayed somewhat sympathetically in the West because they also were opposed to Syria and Iraq over the years and ISIS more recently. They are not, however, any sort of significant ally, and their interests in many cases run counter to ours.

You don’t sound like a warhawk, you sound deranged. Real life isn’t a Paradox game where you can send troops in to shoot any rebels that pop up, or do stuff to guarantee something won’t be a problem in 20 years or what have you.
 

Marduk

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Moderator
Staff Member
Are there no Kurdish nationalists who would be willing to purge any communist influence in exchange for us protecting them at say the same level we do Israel?
Who would be willing to purge something around a third of the other Kurds at minimum, this being the third with most guns and political cohesion?
Probably not.
Bacle while I agree with helping Greeks and Armenians punish Turks. What you are saying is ridiculous because 800 years ago the Turks migrated into that area they are not the indigenous people? What if someone used that same logic for America oh you all are English migrants and deported you back to England. Hell under your logic you can make the claim that Ukraine is a part of Russia since Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine were all apart of the Kievan Rus so there is nothing wrong with Putin trying to reunite the seperated remnants of his people/race.
Or Ukraine conquering everything up to Urals on the flip side.

Even if Greeks and Armenians had the military power, trust, will, and the pull to get away with it, they have nowhere near enough population to make use of these lands and hold them properly. Especially considering the Greek's record in resisting migration pressures...
To be fair if it's a properly done ethnic cleansing/genocide it wouldn't be a forever war as anyone who would be against it would be removed. The problem is that westerners are too big of pussies to do that.
I think we have kinda agreed about genocide being bad.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
If you are willing to go this far, why stop there? By that line of thinking you could pretty much demographically restructure the whole Middle East and North Africa (Arabs to Arabia!), it's just pure fantasy.

And now you are just making shit up.

When it comes to Kurds (and some other issues), it's not about Erdogan, far from it. Kemalists had the same policy, and chances are so will whoever comes after Erdogan.
The Wiki just reinforces that yes, the ancestors of modern Turkey came to the area as conquerors with the Seljuks (who I thought were part of the Khan's subjects, but apparently this was straight Persian Empire stuff), due to language distribution.

Which is why I said that the modern nation of Turkey and their whole cultural imperialist outlook on the region and eastern Europe has been a constant source of problems for European powers since they Seljuks brought them there.

Look, Turkey needs to stop with the fuck-fuck games about Sweden and Finland and trying to push anti-Kurd laws in those nations. I'm just tired of playing nice with Erdogan and Turkey, and think reminding them people are not happy about their status as a historical belligerent to Europe and that dislike hasn't gone away just because of the Cold War and NATO.

Are there no Kurdish nationalists who would be willing to purge any communist influence in exchange for us protecting them at say the same level we do Israel?
Oh, I expect there are, but they won't get mentioned by people who just want to keep Turkey happy.

Bacle while I agree with helping Greeks and Armenians punish Turks. What you are saying is ridiculous because 800 years ago the Turks migrated into that area they are not the indigenous people? What if someone used that same logic for America oh you all are English migrants and deported you back to England. Hell under your logic you can make the claim that Ukraine is a part of Russia since Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine were all apart of the Kievan Rus so there is nothing wrong with Putin trying to reunite the separated remnants of his people/race.
Look, I want Erdogan and Turkey to stop playing these fuck-fuck games with NATO membership vs pushing anti-Kurd laws.

The denial of the Armenian genocide is bad enough, this shit has worn out my pateince for Turkey's bullshit. The nation of Turkey doesn't seem to know how to play nice when it comes to the Kurds, even in other nations, and they only seem to respond to bribes or force, and we are running out of safe ways to bribe Erdogan/Turkey.
By your logic, we should get rid of the countries Americas because our ancestors originally came from Europe. Because the Turks (that is, what we know as the Turkish people today) have been there a hell of a lot longer than Europeans have been in the Americas.

Other than the occasional Greek nationalist who fantasizes about re-establishing the Roman Empire (it wasn’t called “Byzantium” until the 19th century because prior to that, and especially prior to the 16th century, it was just “The Roman Empire).”

The Armenians aren’t exactly friendly to U.S. interests; if anything they’re closely aligned to the Russians. You seriously want to strengthen a Russian ally?

As for the Kurds, as others have said, they were allies of convenience (much as the USSR was during World War II). They tend to get portrayed somewhat sympathetically in the West because they also were opposed to Syria and Iraq over the years and ISIS more recently. They are not, however, any sort of significant ally, and their interests in many cases run counter to ours.

You don’t sound like a warhawk, you sound deranged. Real life isn’t a Paradox game where you can send troops in to shoot any rebels that pop up, or do stuff to guarantee something won’t be a problem in 20 years or what have you.
As I have said, I'm just fucking over these fuck-fuck games that Erdogan and Turkey keep playing, when they are a historical belligerent to Europe and the Cold War hasn't changed that nearly as much as many would like to pretend.

Playing nice doesn't seem to work with Turkey anymore, so all that leaves is less nice methods of getting them to not object to Finland and Sweden entering NATO.

"Let them in, or we let Greek and Armenian nationalists have more fun at your expense, and ignore the more radical Kurds." seems like a decent stick to use when we run out of carrots.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
The West can't just drink the isolationist koolaid and try to pretend it's Japan in XVIII century, that's a non-solution, and we know how that ended up anyway.

Japans Isolationist period lasted from 1639 to 1853 and was 214 years of stability and peace the longest in Japans history. Yes it ended but its still 200 years of relative peace and prosperity.

Everything has trade offs but if we got 200 years of peace in exchange for isolationism thats a pretty mighty deal my friend.
 

Marduk

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Japans Isolationist period lasted from 1639 to 1853 and was 214 years of stability and peace the longest in Japans history. Yes it ended but its still 200 years of relative peace and prosperity.

Everything has trade offs but if we got 200 years of peace in exchange for isolationism thats a pretty mighty deal my friend.
The problem is that this "peace and prosperity" was very relative...
Which is why afterwards outside reality knocked on the door and they weren't the ones in charge of the situation.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
The problem is that this "peace and prosperity" was very relative...
Which is why afterwards outside reality knocked on the door and they weren't the ones in charge of the situation.

Its still 200 years of peace.

America has no where near as long a period of actual peace.
 

Marduk

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Its still 200 years of peace.

America has no where near as long a period of actual peace.
What good is 200 years of peace when what you get out of it at the end is being a backwards plaything for the great powers and have to deal with a long period of very much not peace to get out of it?
You could call it loan shark's peace.
 

King Arts

Well-known member
What good is 200 years of peace when what you get out of it at the end is being a backwards plaything for the great powers and have to deal with a long period of very much not peace to get out of it?
You could call it loan shark's peace.
Umm not to offend you but being involved in the world is no guarantee of not being a backwards plaything for the great powers, until recently Poland could be described as that and it was not closed to the world. Hell Japan had it better because they at least had 200 years of peace while Poland and other Eastern Europeans did not.
 

Marduk

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Umm not to offend you but being involved in the world is no guarantee of not being a backwards plaything for the great powers, until recently Poland could be described as that and it was not closed to the world.
But was occupied mostly by other backwards countries.
Of course it's no guarantee. Just like not jaywalking is no guarantee of never getting hit by a car - but it sure does help avoid that regardless.
Hell Japan had it better because they at least had 200 years of peace while Poland and other Eastern Europeans did not.
They had it better while Japan had civil wars.
Also Japan got nuked and Poland didn't.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Sotnik
Greeks be needing to make more babies if they even want to entertain the fantasy of claiming any substantial bit of Turkey again.
 

Airedale260

Well-known member
As I have said, I'm just fucking over these fuck-fuck games that Erdogan and Turkey keep playing, when they are a historical belligerent to Europe and the Cold War hasn't changed that nearly as much as many would like to pretend.

Playing nice doesn't seem to work with Turkey anymore, so all that leaves is less nice methods of getting them to not object to Finland and Sweden entering NATO.

“This guy with whom we are allied is bothering us. We should destroy his country in such a way so as to screw ourselves for the foreseeable future by provoking a genocide in the region.” Are you sure you haven’t confused the American outlook on allies and defensive agreements with the Russian one?

Hell, Sweden and Finland want into NATO so they DON’T get subjected to that. Erdogan is leveraging his position as much as possible -note that the comments about the impasse came from the foreign minister, not Erdogan himself. Exactly what he wants is unclear but he’s trying to get something out of it.

It’s fine to be sick of Erdogan’s shit. It’s not fine to advocate for wiping out a country based on an incorrect interpretation of history from 1,000 years ago.

Its still 200 years of peace.

America has no where near as long a period of actual peace.

And if the fastest method of travel was by sailing a ship for several months across an ocean, and the longest ranged weapons were trebuchets or muskets, you might have a point. And even then, the Japanese didn’t completely isolate themselves (occasional contacts with China and the Dutch). Once steam/engine propulsion became a thing, however, that was it.

In today’s world, countries have or can develop weapons capable of hitting targets on the other side of the planet. The time it takes to get from point of the world to another is usually measured in hours. Communications (telephone and internet) mean we can communicate with other parts of the world incredibly easily (as seen by the existence of this very forum).

Japan got away with sakoku because there wasn’t anyone interested in forcing the issue until the Americans came along in the 1850s. But once they did, it was completely over by 1868.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Are there no Kurdish nationalists who would be willing to purge any communist influence in exchange for us protecting them at say the same level we do Israel?


Bacle while I agree with helping Greeks and Armenians punish Turks. What you are saying is ridiculous because 800 years ago the Turks migrated into that area they are not the indigenous people? What if someone used that same logic for America oh you all are English migrants and deported you back to England. Hell under your logic you can make the claim that Ukraine is a part of Russia since Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine were all apart of the Kievan Rus so there is nothing wrong with Putin trying to reunite the seperated remnants of his people/race.


To be fair if it's a properly done ethnic cleansing/genocide it wouldn't be a forever war as anyone who would be against it would be removed. The problem is that westerners are too big of pussies to do that.
The ones who arnt commie are to small in number
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
“This guy with whom we are allied is bothering us. We should destroy his country in such a way so as to screw ourselves for the foreseeable future by provoking a genocide in the region.” Are you sure you haven’t confused the American outlook on allies and defensive agreements with the Russian one?

Hell, Sweden and Finland want into NATO so they DON’T get subjected to that. Erdogan is leveraging his position as much as possible -note that the comments about the impasse came from the foreign minister, not Erdogan himself. Exactly what he wants is unclear but he’s trying to get something out of it.

It’s fine to be sick of Erdogan’s shit. It’s not fine to advocate for wiping out a country based on an incorrect interpretation of history from 1,000 years ago.
I want to address this, after cooling off from how pissed I was at this shit continuing to be held up by Turkey/Erdogan.

I didn't say wipe the Turk's out , just shift them to Turkmenistan/partition Turkey if they continue to be intransigent about trying to force anti-Kurd laws (not just anti-PPK, which is what people here have ignored) in other nations in order for them to get into NATO, and I was wrong about how the Turk's ancestors ended up in Asia Minor. However Turk's are still invaders, and there is a reason Vlad Dracule is still a hero in Eastern Europe for his fight against the Ottomans, and WW1/'end of the Ottoman Empire' wasn't that long ago. Not breaking up Turkey/returning the Bosphorus to Greece during the WW1 peace agreements is a massive mistake of the Sickes/Picot maps/Versailles/Woodrow Wilson.

Maybe trying to 'shift them to Turkmenistan' would be unfeasible without a genocide, and maybe a partition would be untenable, however letting Erdogan and his friends play these games with Finland and Sweden has every possibility of undermining NATO in the long term worse than Berlin's cowardice or French duplicity ever could.

Not ever Kurd is a commie, and playing off ignoring their plight with that line just feels like hanging out yet another 'ally' out to dry for political convenience. Particularly after how we screwed them over after the Gulf War, which saw a lot of Kurds and other minor ethnic groups get massacred by Saddam.
 

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