Genghis Khan dies early.

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
1201, with the Mongol forces not yet consolidated, their primary leader, Temüjin, known in OTL as Genghis Khan falls dead after his neck is pierced by an arrow.

This leaves his tribal confederacy weakened and turns it into easy prey for his enemies, with his former lieutenants fighting over the spoils.

How does this progress?

Forked off of this thread by popular demand.
 
The Russian Steppe probably Christianizes early (and completely!), and Georgia probably achieves the same in the Caucasus region. Therefore, we have no Muslim Tartars or Chechens, as they are Christianized. On the flipside, however, the Crusader States are probably crushed early and Rum might not collapse, instead expanding to conquer Trebizond and Nicaea centuries ahead of schedule. That may leave the Latin Empire in a position to consolidate though, as it removes a major threat on its flank for awhile and forces the Greeks to rally to it.

Hungary is probably able to Magyarize its territories, while Lithuania (Here essentially a large Belarus) might replace Russia in the East.
 
The Russian Steppe probably Christianizes early (and completely!), and Georgia probably achieves the same in the Caucasus region. Therefore, we have no Muslim Tartars or Chechens, as they are Christianized. On the flipside, however, the Crusader States are probably crushed early and Rum might not collapse, instead expanding to conquer Trebizond and Nicaea centuries ahead of schedule. That may leave the Latin Empire in a position to consolidate though, as it removes a major threat on its flank for awhile and forces the Greeks to rally to it.

Hungary is probably able to Magyarize its territories, while Lithuania (Here essentially a large Belarus) might replace Russia in the East.

Would the Greeks prefer Muslim rule to Latin rule?

What happens to Romania in this TL? I mean other than the Hungarian-ruled parts?

And a Stronk Belarus (TM) is EPIC! ;) :D
 
I've expressed opinions on what could happen with China and some other places with this POD in the AH Ideas thread, but (now that I finally have got a fully functional computer of my own back up & running) I'd also like to add that Russia probably won't evolve the way it did historically without any Mongol invasions. IIRC Kiev had already declined considerably by the 13th century, and was actually part of Galicia-Volhynia by the time the Mongols came knocking; in turn G-V was approaching its zenith and its ruler Daniel was crowned King of Ruthenia by a Papal legate in the mid-1200s.

If that kingdom is able to continue expanding into the other southern Rus' principalities without having to worry about the Mongols breathing down their neck, and avoid imploding after the death of Daniel's heir Leo, we could be looking at a north-south divide of the Russian lands: a Catholic-aligned (though probably still with an Orthodox majority for a very long time) south led by the Galician Rurikids from Kiev, and an Orthodox north led by either Novgorod or Vladimir-Suzdal (I think these were the strongest of the northern Rus' principalities at the time of the Mongol onslaught). Without Vladimir getting sacked by the Mongols, it and Novgorod probably remain the greatest cities in northern Russia while Moscow remains a river village in their shadow.

Throw in a stronger Poland, unified early by Henry the Pious (who doesn't get killed at the Battle of Legnica with no Mongols around) and definitively including his Silesian homeland as a result, as well as the Teutonic & Livonian Orders at the height of their power and you have a very interesting setup in Eastern Europe, with multiple strong contenders in play.

With a 1201 POD you may also be able to avert the 4th Crusade. If it stays on course for Egypt and never sacks Constantinople, then win or lose, that's busted open a jar full of butterflies for the future of southeastern Europe and Anatolia. (And the Levant in general if they win - even if Crusader Egypt doesn't last, them toppling the Ayyubids will buy the Kingdom of Jerusalem a lot of breathing room in the short to medium term) If the crusaders still sack Constantinople to avenge the earlier Massacre of the Latins (that already happened in 1182, so it can't be averted by killing Genghis off in 1201) then I'd agree with @History Learner that you're probably looking at an empowered Rum Sultanate vs. Latin Empire standoff, unless Epirus manages to restore the Byzantine Empire instead. (Which I've posted a thread about a while ago, they actually got quite close to that goal until about 1230)
 
The Russian Steppe probably Christianizes early (and completely!),

This implies a Russian colonization/integration/advance to the south (and southeast) centuries early. Does this also naturally lead to earlier crossing of the Urals, and expansion across the northern forest belt, and reaching the Pacific earlier than OTL Russia?
 
1201, with the Mongol forces not yet consolidated, their primary leader, Temüjin, known in OTL as Genghis Khan falls dead after his neck is pierced by an arrow.

This leaves his tribal confederacy weakened and turns it into easy prey for his enemies, with his former lieutenants fighting over the spoils.

How does this progress?

Forked off of this thread by popular demand.

China still divided into 3 states,but most important changes for Europe.Mongols not only massacred Cumans and Bulgars,who ruled steppes then,but also genocided state of Hungarian nomads who existed then,and which whom Kings of Hungary tried to made alliance.
Stronger Hungary.

And Normal Russis - in OTL mongols choosed as their favourite slaves Moscov.As a result,they have state when everybody was slave of prince,and prince was slave of chan.
When princes become tsars,only change was that tsar was free - evrybody else was slaves.Nowogrod the Great was genocided by Ivan the coward,becouse people there was free.

Europe with few russian states with normal people,instead of one big empire full of slaves....much better world.

For Poland - in 1240 in Legnica battle died prince who otherwise would unite Poland again.But - not polish empire,it was possible becouse Lithuanians take russian lands after mongols collapse.And we united with them.
So - medium-size kingdom instead.Better for Poand.
 
China still divided into 3 states,but most important changes for Europe.Mongols not only massacred Cumans and Bulgars,who ruled steppes then,but also genocided state of Hungarian nomads who existed then,and which whom Kings of Hungary tried to made alliance.
Stronger Hungary.

And Normal Russis - in OTL mongols choosed as their favourite slaves Moscov.As a result,they have state when everybody was slave of prince,and prince was slave of chan.
When princes become tsars,only change was that tsar was free - evrybody else was slaves.Nowogrod the Great was genocided by Ivan the coward,becouse people there was free.

Europe with few russian states with normal people,instead of one big empire full of slaves....much better world.

For Poland - in 1240 in Legnica battle died prince who otherwise would unite Poland again.But - not polish empire,it was possible becouse Lithuanians take russian lands after mongols collapse.And we united with them.
So - medium-size kingdom instead.Better for Poand.
I think the post-Kievan Rus principalities will eventually unite.
Also, serfdom was widely practiced in Europe back then, and IMO it will still creep into the east.

Would a Kievan Rus confederacy be able to come to Constantinople's aid eventually, though?

I mean, the Ottoman Turks were one of the groups displaced by the Mongol invasions, and you can argue that is what pushed them into attacking the remants of Byzantium, and the Rus had strong cultural ties to the Byzantines, never mind the fact that a lot of their trade went through Constantinopol and it was the Slavic/Rus window to the world, basically.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ATP
I think the post-Kievan Rus principalities will eventually unite.
Also, serfdom was widely practiced in Europe back then, and IMO it will still creep into the east.

Would a Kievan Rus confederacy be able to come to Constantinople's aid eventually, though?

I mean, the Ottoman Turks were one of the groups displaced by the Mongol invasions, and you can argue that is what pushed them into attacking the remants of Byzantium, and the Rus had strong cultural ties to the Byzantines, never mind the fact that a lot of their trade went through Constantinopol and it was the Slavic/Rus window to the world, basically.

Unite - Maybe,maybe not.Remember,they were made by vikings,who do not made one big scandinavian kingdom,but 3.
Serfdoom was not slavery - they still have some rights.
In Moscov Ivan the coward was impaling most important boyars if he feel like that.

Help Constantinopole - certainly.If that would be even needed - remember,there woud be plenty of Cumans on steppe for hire to fight turks.In OTL some remnants survived only in Hungary.

But russians mainly would fight Bulgars living there,cumans and maybe those hungarian nomad tribe.
 
With a 1201 POD you may also be able to avert the 4th Crusade. If it stays on course for Egypt and never sacks Constantinople, then win or lose, that's busted open a jar full of butterflies for the future of southeastern Europe and Anatolia. (And the Levant in general if they win - even if Crusader Egypt doesn't last, them toppling the Ayyubids will buy the Kingdom of Jerusalem a lot of breathing room in the short to medium term) If the crusaders still sack Constantinople to avenge the earlier Massacre of the Latins (that already happened in 1182, so it can't be averted by killing Genghis off in 1201) then I'd agree with @History Learner that you're probably looking at an empowered Rum Sultanate vs. Latin Empire standoff, unless Epirus manages to restore the Byzantine Empire instead. (Which I've posted a thread about a while ago, they actually got quite close to that goal until about 1230)

What odds would you place on the Crusaders actually managing to successfully conquer Egypt, though?
 
What odds would you place on the Crusaders actually managing to successfully conquer Egypt, though?
Well, obviously the crusaders were strong enough to take a reasonably well-defended Constantinople, so they aren't a force to be taken lightly. The Ayyubids are in a critical phase of consolidation after several natural disasters and a civil war between Saladin's son al-Afdal & brother al-Adil, with the latter ultimately triumphing by 1202. Al-Adil himself (AKA Saphadin to the crusaders) was a capable ruler like his brother, though more inclined to peaceful ways - he was first and foremost a diplomat & administrator, not a conquering general (though IIRC he wasn't bad at warfare either), and historically worked to prevent an Ayyubid collapse after the chaos that marred the start of his reign.

So I'd say 50/50. Ayyubid Egypt hasn't recovered from their civil war, famine and quake since all that literally just happened right before the 1202 launch of the Fourth Crusade, but al-Adil is sure to at least give the crusaders a good fight. The crusaders have a sizable army, a mighty navy and competent, experienced leaders of their own (the Flemish brothers Baldwin and Henry who both historically became Latin Emperors, Boniface of Montferrat, and obviously Enrico Dandolo). Could definitely go either way - if the crusaders are to win, they could ironically loosely follow the steps of the RL Fourth Crusade against al-Adil, with al-Afdal filling a role similar to Alexios IV Angelos (a pretender tagging along with the crusaders under the promise of giving them peace, gold and generous land cessions if restored to the Egyptian throne, only to almost certainly die either at the hands of his 'allies' or Egyptians pissed off at his siding with the Christians).
 
1201, with the Mongol forces not yet consolidated, their primary leader, Temüjin, known in OTL as Genghis Khan falls dead after his neck is pierced by an arrow.

This leaves his tribal confederacy weakened and turns it into easy prey for his enemies, with his former lieutenants fighting over the spoils.

How does this progress?

Forked off of this thread by popular demand.

Alright:

Qara Khitai muddle around for longer, their leader was an idiot who allowed himself to be destroyed in detail.

Kipchak Khanates practiced freedom of religion with no religious requirements for leaders. This likely continues and there is no dominant faith and the people of the Khanates practice a live and let live ideology within. Raid for loot and women outside of it.

Khwarezmian Shahdom has a weak ruler at this time, Jalal al-Din Mangburni who will likely succeed him in 19 years assuming his father still dies on the same date, is far more capable, he did defeat the Mongols several times and it took Genghis Khan in person to slap him down a few times. Genghis even lamented that Jalal wasn't his own son. With him at the helm, he will likely create a new Persian Dynasty across the Levant with his core territories having not been overran and massacred. He will also conquer Sakartvelo, Hayastan (both the homeland and the Cicilian branch), and Azerbaijan and being much stronger, will hold them and likely Islamize them. If his sons pick up his skill, the Shahdom will be on solid footing and may even be able to help the Almohads and take the city of Constantinople. Depends on how quickly gunpowder weaponry trickles in and what types.

4th Crusade goes as historical, that was already in the works, and Genghis doesn't factor into it.

Without the need to fend off the Mongols and Jalal occupied west, the emerging Delhi Sultanate will likely last longer on a stronger base and be able to dedicate their best generals to subduing India instead of crushing and repelling the Mongols as they did historically.

The Song Dynasty likely industrializes as the first Industrial Nation achieving what the Romans would have achieved if they hadn't imploded with civil wars after Commodus kicked it and failed to secure a good successor.

Hmm, this opens all sorts of good possibilities depending on who is the leader of what group and the relative competence of his challengers plus their resources...
 
Strong Persia - i forget that.In OTL they were usually defeated by Ottomans,but here they would be major islam power.
Considering that Bulgars living on Volga was muslim,too - we could see slow conqest there.Not enought to take russian lands,but cumans ? they united only after mongols massacred them few times.At least - what was left of them.So,they rather do not unite here,and become conqered.
Or...if hungarian made alliance with those steppe-hungarians,most of them become muslim,and rest - catholics.
 
Alright:

Qara Khitai muddle around for longer, their leader was an idiot who allowed himself to be destroyed in detail.

Kipchak Khanates practiced freedom of religion with no religious requirements for leaders. This likely continues and there is no dominant faith and the people of the Khanates practice a live and let live ideology within. Raid for loot and women outside of it.

Khwarezmian Shahdom has a weak ruler at this time, Jalal al-Din Mangburni who will likely succeed him in 19 years assuming his father still dies on the same date, is far more capable, he did defeat the Mongols several times and it took Genghis Khan in person to slap him down a few times. Genghis even lamented that Jalal wasn't his own son. With him at the helm, he will likely create a new Persian Dynasty across the Levant with his core territories having not been overran and massacred. He will also conquer Sakartvelo, Hayastan (both the homeland and the Cicilian branch), and Azerbaijan and being much stronger, will hold them and likely Islamize them. If his sons pick up his skill, the Shahdom will be on solid footing and may even be able to help the Almohads and take the city of Constantinople. Depends on how quickly gunpowder weaponry trickles in and what types.

4th Crusade goes as historical, that was already in the works, and Genghis doesn't factor into it.

Without the need to fend off the Mongols and Jalal occupied west, the emerging Delhi Sultanate will likely last longer on a stronger base and be able to dedicate their best generals to subduing India instead of crushing and repelling the Mongols as they did historically.

The Song Dynasty likely industrializes as the first Industrial Nation achieving what the Romans would have achieved if they hadn't imploded with civil wars after Commodus kicked it and failed to secure a good successor.

Hmm, this opens all sorts of good possibilities depending on who is the leader of what group and the relative competence of his challengers plus their resources...
I think that's way too optimistic an assessment of Khwarezm's future. Jalal al-Din was very capable but not a Baibars or Frederick II, as evidenced by his fair share of defeats at not only Mongol but also non-Mongol hands (he was ultimately finished off not by Mongols but by the Seljuks at Yassicemen), and the Khwarazmian army even under his leadership doesn't seem to have been nearly as innovative as that of the Mongols - they had no decimal regimental organization, postal system to facilitate rapid communication, etc. Strengthening the Khwarazmian Shahdom is easily doable, if he doesn't do that it's likely to collapse anyway since Anushtigin rule was fresh and fragile in most of its huge-on-paper empire, but involving itself in Spanish matters is ASB. The decisive battle between the Christians and Moors happened in 1212 historically and will probably still occur in a similar timeframe ITL, since the Almohads and their enemies had been fighting for decades and were building up to a final great confrontation after the earlier Almohad victory at Alarcos in 1195: I see no way for Jalal al-Din, working from a 1201 POD, can even secure a Mediterranean coast by the time it happens.

I'd argue that without the Mongol conquest the Khwarazmians will also have little to no chance of expanding considerably into the Levant or reaching Constantinople, as all of their competitors in that direction (with the exception of the long-declining Abbasids) were also in golden ages rudely cut short by the Mongols as of the early-to-mid 13th century. Georgia for example only got weakened enough for Jalal to sack Tbilisi IRL because the Mongols hit it a couple years prior to his own invasion, crippled its army and fatally injured King George IV, putting that kingdom (fresh off its golden age under Tamar) into the hands of his much weaker sister Rusudan. The Seljuks of Rum are close to their own apogee under Kayqubad I. And depending on what happens with the crusades in the western Levant, they'll be looking at either a network of reinvigorated crusader kingdoms if crusades like the 4th or 5th succeed, or the historical case of the Ayyubids/Mamluks who are definitely no pushovers themselves (the latter having directly repulsed the Mongols under Baibars' leadership).

I think it's a lot more likely that no Mongol invasion means the Middle East stays divided between multiple strong regional powers, not dissimilar to what I predicted for Russia above. I could see the Khwarazmians overtaking Iraq and puppeting the Abbasid Caliphs as the Seljuks did (and as the Mamluks would eventually do IRL) - assuming the Ayyubids/Mamluks/Rum don't beat them to it - and possibly Armenia but little else, barring an unexpected complete collapse of one or more of their rivals. The biggest butterfly emerging from a surviving Khwarazmian state IMO is that the religious makeup of Persia looks completely different compared to OTL, as the Anushtigins were Sunni and there's no guarantee the Safavids will even exist, much less take the form they did historically without the Mongol conquests and subsequent devastation of the eastern Levant & Persia. Without Persia as a homebase, the Shiites will almost certainly remain dispersed and downtrodden across the Mideast for much longer if not to the present day, freely persisting only in a few isolated but extremely well-defended areas such as the Hashashin fortress at Alamut.

Would agree that India and especially China are the biggest beneficiaries of there being no Mongol conquests. I said as much in my original response back in the AH discussion thread, but the people of this timeline could very well be looking at a Chinese-led world order in a couple centuries.
 
I think that's way too optimistic an assessment of Khwarezm's future. Jalal al-Din was very capable but not a Baibars or Frederick II, as evidenced by his fair share of defeats at not only Mongol but also non-Mongol hands (he was ultimately finished off not by Mongols but by the Seljuks at Yassicemen), and the Khwarazmian army even under his leadership doesn't seem to have been nearly as innovative as that of the Mongols - they had no decimal regimental organization, postal system to facilitate rapid communication, etc. Strengthening the Khwarazmian Shahdom is easily doable, if he doesn't do that it's likely to collapse anyway since Anushtigin rule was fresh and fragile in most of its huge-on-paper empire, but involving itself in Spanish matters is ASB. The decisive battle between the Christians and Moors happened in 1212 historically and will probably still occur in a similar timeframe ITL, since the Almohads and their enemies had been fighting for decades and were building up to a final great confrontation after the earlier Almohad victory at Alarcos in 1195: I see no way for Jalal al-Din, working from a 1201 POD, can even secure a Mediterranean coast by the time it happens.

I'd argue that without the Mongol conquest the Khwarazmians will also have little to no chance of expanding considerably into the Levant or reaching Constantinople, as all of their competitors in that direction (with the exception of the long-declining Abbasids) were also in golden ages rudely cut short by the Mongols as of the early-to-mid 13th century. Georgia for example only got weakened enough for Jalal to sack Tbilisi IRL because the Mongols hit it a couple years prior to his own invasion, crippled its army and fatally injured King George IV, putting that kingdom (fresh off its golden age under Tamar) into the hands of his much weaker sister Rusudan. The Seljuks of Rum are close to their own apogee under Kayqubad I. And depending on what happens with the crusades in the western Levant, they'll be looking at either a network of reinvigorated crusader kingdoms if crusades like the 4th or 5th succeed, or the historical case of the Ayyubids/Mamluks who are definitely no pushovers themselves (the latter having directly repulsed the Mongols under Baibars' leadership).

I think it's a lot more likely that no Mongol invasion means the Middle East stays divided between multiple strong regional powers, not dissimilar to what I predicted for Russia above. I could see the Khwarazmians overtaking Iraq and puppeting the Abbasid Caliphs as the Seljuks did (and as the Mamluks would eventually do IRL) - assuming the Ayyubids/Mamluks/Rum don't beat them to it - and possibly Armenia but little else, barring an unexpected complete collapse of one or more of their rivals. The biggest butterfly emerging from a surviving Khwarazmian state IMO is that the religious makeup of Persia looks completely different compared to OTL, as the Anushtigins were Sunni and there's no guarantee the Safavids will even exist, much less take the form they did historically without the Mongol conquests and subsequent devastation of the eastern Levant & Persia. Without Persia as a homebase, the Shiites will almost certainly remain dispersed and downtrodden across the Mideast for much longer if not to the present day, freely persisting only in a few isolated but extremely well-defended areas such as the Hashashin fortress at Alamut.

Would agree that India and especially China are the biggest beneficiaries of there being no Mongol conquests. I said as much in my original response back in the AH discussion thread, but the people of this timeline could very well be looking at a Chinese-led world order in a couple centuries.

The Mongol Army was nothing special. Genghis Khan deserves credit for forging a united discipline army with good organization, but at its core it was composed of light cavalry with a core of heavy shock cavalry which was no match for a properly led Army of a sedentary state. When the Mongols met well led Armies, they got their asses handed to them. They were good at reducing isolated Earthen Walled Settlements, but were unable to take cities and fortifications with Stone Walls. They also sucked at logistics and several Mongol Battlegroups actually starved to death invading Hungary.

Genghis was also lucky to come at a time when the Northern Chinese, Qara Khitai, Khwarezmian Shahdom, et al were led by morons who let themselves be destroyed in detail.

Also the notion that Khwarezmian Shahdom sucks because it doesn't have decimal organization is nonsense. Also it had a postal system of messengers, pigeons, etc which had existed as far back as the First Dynasty of Egypt in recordings, and thus that is laughable. How do you think the Shahdom and all its contemporaries communicated internally and externally?

Under Jalal, who doesn't have his main power centers gutted, and can bring more troops to bear, he can definitely make a play for the Mediterranean and Transcaucasia. I give it even odds.

As for the Almohads, yes they got trashed at Las Navas de Tolosa, but it took a few more decades before they lost Cordoba and a few more before they collapsed. Plenty of time for Jalal or a successor if he is so inclined to send help, either in person or depending on the situation, in concert with the Ayyubids/Rum/Mamluks to check the advance of the Reconquista and stabilize the situation to status quo pre-Las Navas de Tolosa at the least.

And if Jalal takes the Abbasid Caliphate, he can simply absorb the Office himself, just have the Caliph adopt him as a son and heir prior to his 'retirement.'

Of course, I am also open to the ideal he may prioritize taking India and maybe taking the Qara Khitai instead.

There is much possibility for him to expand depending on his how priorities evolve upon taking power.
 
The Mongol Army was nothing special. Genghis Khan deserves credit for forging a united discipline army with good organization, but at its core it was composed of light cavalry with a core of heavy shock cavalry which was no match for a properly led Army of a sedentary state. When the Mongols met well led Armies, they got their asses handed to them. They were good at reducing isolated Earthen Walled Settlements, but were unable to take cities and fortifications with Stone Walls. They also sucked at logistics and several Mongol Battlegroups actually starved to death invading Hungary.

Genghis was also lucky to come at a time when the Northern Chinese, Qara Khitai, Khwarezmian Shahdom, et al were led by morons who let themselves be destroyed in detail.

Also the notion that Khwarezmian Shahdom sucks because it doesn't have decimal organization is nonsense. Also it had a postal system of messengers, pigeons, etc which had existed as far back as the First Dynasty of Egypt in recordings, and thus that is laughable. How do you think the Shahdom and all its contemporaries communicated internally and externally?

Under Jalal, who doesn't have his main power centers gutted, and can bring more troops to bear, he can definitely make a play for the Mediterranean and Transcaucasia. I give it even odds.

As for the Almohads, yes they got trashed at Las Navas de Tolosa, but it took a few more decades before they lost Cordoba and a few more before they collapsed. Plenty of time for Jalal or a successor if he is so inclined to send help, either in person or depending on the situation, in concert with the Ayyubids/Rum/Mamluks to check the advance of the Reconquista and stabilize the situation to status quo pre-Las Navas de Tolosa at the least.

And if Jalal takes the Abbasid Caliphate, he can simply absorb the Office himself, just have the Caliph adopt him as a son and heir prior to his 'retirement.'

Of course, I am also open to the ideal he may prioritize taking India and maybe taking the Qara Khitai instead.

There is much possibility for him to expand depending on his how priorities evolve upon taking power.
That stance ignores the Mongols' other strengths, particularly their versatility in manipulating the strengths of conquered peoples to augment & cover the weaknesses of their forces. They obviously could forcefully take strong fortresses (as places from Baghdad to Alamut & the other Hashashin forts to Xiangyang can attest to) and, if not technically proficient themselves, knew how to wield people who were. In Khwarazm's case they used captured Chinese technology and engineers to great effect - deploying gunpowder to crack open the citadel of Bukhara, for example - and later ironically using counterweight trebuchets from the Islamic Middle East against the Song at Xiangyang. We know they can beat competently led sedentary armies in the field as well, since they did just that all the time - whether Jalal himself at Indus, Henry the Pious and his Poles & crusaders at Legnica, or Bela IV and his Hungarians at Mohi (in that case, Bela survived to recover and rebuild Hungary to better withstand a future Mongol invasion, including storing provisions in such a way to starve the Mongols on their second attack in the reign of his grandson Ladislaus).

From the Khwarazmians being blindsided by Genghis' movement through the Kyzyl-Kum desert and only responding sluggishly to Mongol attacks, I think it's pretty safe to suggest that Mongol organization and communications exceeded whatever the Khwarazmians had. I'm also not sure what you're getting at by repeatedly raising the Mongols' enemies being led poorly and/or defeated in detail. Yeah that was true in many cases (and not in others, as I mentioned above), but does exploiting your enemies' weaknesses somehow detract from the glory and impact of victory? That's like suggesting the Rashidun Caliphate attacking the ERE and Sassanids after they had beaten each other (and themselves, what with Heraclius' revolt against Phocas and the Persian civil war immediately following their defeat) senseless for nearly 30 years somehow makes the early Muslim conquests less impressive or respectable. I don't believe we can fault the Mongols for not chivalrously giving their enemies a fair fight or using opportunities those enemies created through their own mistakes.

Anyway, since this thread is about 'what if Genghis dies and so there were no Mongol conquests' and not the Mongols themselves...back on topic, were I the Almohad Caliph I would definitely not count on the Islamic powers of the eastern Mediterranean & beyond for help. If Jalal and the Khwarazmians look as though they're about to overrun the Levant, a Seljuk-Egyptian alliance to constrain them becomes exceedingly likely - in fact that's literally what happened IRL leading up to Jalal's final defeat at Yassicemen, and it occurred even though he seemed less threatening than he did in a no-Mongol scenario. If it looks like one of the other two has the upper hand, I expect the Khwarazmians and whichever of the other three isn't on top at that moment to ally instead.

In all three Muslim powers' cases the Almohads' problems are a very distant concern compared to their immediate interests (fighting the crusaders/Byzantines and competing with each other) much closer to home. I'd imagine any appeal for help from al-Andalus and the Maghreb will likely go down about as well as Boabdil's call in 1492, and much for the same reason: at that time the Mamluks basically told the Granadines 'too bad, sorry for your impending loss' because after all, they were busy trying to fend off their fellow Muslims, the Ottomans. Religious solidarity (especially in such far-off lands) tends to take a back seat to rivalries and competing interests in cases like these, much as the English wouldn't help Louis IX of France out in his ill-fated crusades just a few decades down the road because the French had been gobbling up their continental domains.

The Khwarazmians moving into India is an interesting possibility. If Jalal does that instead of striking west, he'd be following in the successful footsteps of the Anushtigins' Ghaznavid and Ghurid predecessors. It would put him in conflict with the Muslim Delhi Sultanate, but I don't see that stopping an ambitious and competent Khwarazmian ruler. IIRC Jalal's father, Muhammad II, actually did already attack the Indian Mamluks and wrest their portion of Afghanistan away from them a few years before the historical Mongol invasion anyway, so there's definitely precedent for that to happen if he so chooses.
 
This implies a Russian colonization/integration/advance to the south (and southeast) centuries early. Does this also naturally lead to earlier crossing of the Urals, and expansion across the northern forest belt, and reaching the Pacific earlier than OTL Russia?

I was thinking more of the periphery powers (Byzantium, Hungary, Georgia, etc) continue their Christianization efforts. The Pechenegs were rapidly converting, for example.
 
That stance ignores the Mongols' other strengths, particularly their versatility in manipulating the strengths of conquered peoples to augment & cover the weaknesses of their forces. They obviously could forcefully take strong fortresses (as places from Baghdad to Alamut & the other Hashashin forts to Xiangyang can attest to) and, if not technically proficient themselves, knew how to wield people who were. In Khwarazm's case they used captured Chinese technology and engineers to great effect - deploying gunpowder to crack open the citadel of Bukhara, for example - and later ironically using counterweight trebuchets from the Islamic Middle East against the Song at Xiangyang. We know they can beat competently led sedentary armies in the field as well, since they did just that all the time - whether Jalal himself at Indus, Henry the Pious and his Poles & crusaders at Legnica, or Bela IV and his Hungarians at Mohi (in that case, Bela survived to recover and rebuild Hungary to better withstand a future Mongol invasion, including storing provisions in such a way to starve the Mongols on their second attack in the reign of his grandson Ladislaus).

From the Khwarazmians being blindsided by Genghis' movement through the Kyzyl-Kum desert and only responding sluggishly to Mongol attacks, I think it's pretty safe to suggest that Mongol organization and communications exceeded whatever the Khwarazmians had. I'm also not sure what you're getting at by repeatedly raising the Mongols' enemies being led poorly and/or defeated in detail. Yeah that was true in many cases (and not in others, as I mentioned above), but does exploiting your enemies' weaknesses somehow detract from the glory and impact of victory? That's like suggesting the Rashidun Caliphate attacking the ERE and Sassanids after they had beaten each other (and themselves, what with Heraclius' revolt against Phocas and the Persian civil war immediately following their defeat) senseless for nearly 30 years somehow makes the early Muslim conquests less impressive or respectable. I don't believe we can fault the Mongols for not chivalrously giving their enemies a fair fight or using opportunities those enemies created through their own mistakes.

'Sigh'

Lets step back again. As you are conflating several events decades apart.

Genghis Khan was no doubt competent and deserves credit for forging an empire with the strength of his right arm.

However, the true test of any General is not besting 3rd rate trash. But taking on a foe who is their equal, does everything right and still loses. then building a firm foundation that takes centuries of decadent rulers to cause a collapse. There are few generals who meet that criteria and Genghis isn't on it and he failed to lay a firm foundation that would keep his Empire together, causing it to fragment and fall apart 22 years after his death.

Anyway, since this thread is about 'what if Genghis dies and so there were no Mongol conquests' and not the Mongols themselves...back on topic, were I the Almohad Caliph I would definitely not count on the Islamic powers of the eastern Mediterranean & beyond for help. If Jalal and the Khwarazmians look as though they're about to overrun the Levant, a Seljuk-Egyptian alliance to constrain them becomes exceedingly likely - in fact that's literally what happened IRL leading up to Jalal's final defeat at Yassicemen, and it occurred even though he seemed less threatening than he did in a no-Mongol scenario. If it looks like one of the other two has the upper hand, I expect the Khwarazmians and whichever of the other three isn't on top at that moment to ally instead.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Jalal still has the Khwarzm Homelands intact which is a solid base of manpower to work with. If Jalal decides to wreck the Qara Khitai and succeeds, he can bring even more resources to the game. Though more likely he strikes a deal with the Kipchaks to supply mercenaries which he can use to bring Transcaucasia and Rum to heel after sweeping up the Abbasids. Depending on how he plays his cards, he might even be able to cut a deal with the Mamluks coming to power in Egypt.

Alternatively without the desperation caused by the Mongol Invasions. Jalal might content himself to simply deposing the Abbasids and bringing Transcaucasia under his sovereignty, helping Rum destroy Cicilia Armenia and striking peace with Mamluk Egypt. This secures Persia, removes the Hayastani claim to the Persian Throne, and gains a Black Sea Port. He can then retrench and consolidate, loan out detachments of his Army to the Rum Turks and Mamluks as needed and develop Persian Infrastructure for a firm foundation he can leave his successors.

And if the Mamluks aren't fighting the Ilkhanate and have peace with a strong Khwarzm, they won't just raid Cyprus, they will go for its conquest along with Rhodes. And if they can get a strong Alliance with Rum and Khwarzm, they may just find the common cause to send an Army to bail out the Almohads.

Then again the Mamluks may just decide to conquer the Almohads themselves if they get a peace deal with the Khwarzm.

So many different threads possible.
 
I was thinking more of the periphery powers (Byzantium, Hungary, Georgia, etc) continue their Christianization efforts. The Pechenegs were rapidly converting, for example.

Good point. Christianizing doesn't have to mean Russifying, like I assumed in my post. It can be an ethno-nationally diverse pontic steppe region. But Russians/Ukrainians/Ruthenians should be expected to be demographically better off though! So Pechenegs - Christianizing Turkic speakers on the Pontic steppe?

Add those genocided by mongols hungarian tribe on steppe which hungarian try to reach in 1237 - they would become catholics in few decades.
Ugric speakers on the pontic steppe/Ukraine who end up converting to western Catholicism not Orthodoxy. Interesting.

Actually, taking away the Mongols saves one Muslim group from genocide too (at least for the time and from the particular perpetrators) - the Volga Bulgars.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top