German-Polish Eternal Friendship/Derangement Thread, No Reparations for Participation

[Urabrask Revealed]

Well if Germany didn't have a government, extra collectivist one at that, there wouldn't be a WW2.
But it does have one, and WW2 did happen.

Right, because Poland totally would've taken something like the Treaty of Versailes laying down. Pull the other.

 

[Skallagrim]

Well if Germany didn't have a government, extra collectivist one at that, there wouldn't be a WW2.
But it does have one, and WW2 did happen.

Then I suggest you seek out the members of the former government of the Third Reich, and/or those SS & military men who participated in the invasion and occupation, and you talk to them about any outstanding debts. They are the only ones who carry the responsibility for their own actions.

Here's the plain fact that you refuse to grasp: you can't make people who didn't commit a crime pay for that crime, and still call it justice. It's just looting. It's saying "we were abused, so now we abuse innocent others in turn". In short, you become like Hitler and Stalin: a collectivist thug. By bitching about reparations, you make yourself heir to their legacy. It is vile.




(I'm opposed to public debt for these same reasons: I truly believe that all debts should be voided after the people who incurred them leave office. Or rather; those people should personally carry those debts. Jefferson felt the same way, and believed that all public debts should have a limit of 20 years, so that only the current generation could ever be made to pay them off, and the next generation would be free of it. I very much agree!)

 

[Marduk]

Right, because Poland totally would've taken something like the Treaty of Versailes laying down. Pull the other.

Well Germany didn't take it laying down, Germany lost another war earlier to end up with that one.
Can you spot the pattern?
FFS, Germany, stop starting wars, or at least stop losing the wars you start.

Then I suggest you seek out the members of the former government of the Third Reich, and/or those military men who participated in the invasion and occupation, and you talk to them about any outstanding debts. They are the only ones who carry the responsibility.

The technical issues of doing that aside, that's not how governments work, that's not how international law works, that excuse doesn't even work for mafias.

Here's the plain fact that you refuse to grasp: you can't make people who didn't commit a crime pay for that crime, and still call it justice.

The people may have not committed the crime, but the organization they are a part of as citizens did. Hence the organization has to pay.
It's as if a corporation took out a shitload of loans, fired all its workers, changed the CEO, stockholders sold the stock to someone else, hired new workers, and then claimed it shouldn't have to pay off the loans because it only hurts people who had nothing to do with taking the loans.

 

[Skallagrim]

It's as if a corporation took out a shitload of loans, fired all its workers, changed the CEO, stockholders sold the stock to someone else, hired new workers, and then claimed it shouldn't have to pay off the loans because it only hurts people who had nothing to do with taking the loans.

What you're proposing is that the "new workers" in this comparison should have their personal bank accounts plundered by the company's management, so the management can pay its debts.

For starters, that illustrates how immoral government is to begin with. But moreover, it illustrates how immoral you are.

"The organisation has to pay" is pychopathic, since the "organisation" is one you're born into, that takes your money by force. I say again: fuck off. Seriously, think long and hard about the twisted road that led you to this stance, and try to find some morality within your soul. If you are unable to do that-- please stop talking to me. I'll pray for you.

Until you are ready to admit that reparations are evil, I'd prefer not to talk to you again. It only makes me ill. Such depravity, so callously excused, with such twisted reasoning, in the face of clear evidence against it, sickens me to my stomach. I don't want to hear any more of your vomit-inducing madness.

 

[Marduk]

What you're proposing is that the "new workers" in this comparison should have their personal bank accounts plundered by the company's management, so the management can pay its debts.

Well their paychecks would be reduced, so in the end their personal bank accounts will be smaller.

For starters, that illustrates how immoral government is to begin with. But moreover, it illustrates how immoral you are.

"The organisation has to pay" is pychopathic, since the "organisation" is one you're born into, that takes your money by force. I say again: fuck off. Seriously, think long and hard about the twisted road that led you to this stance, and try to find some morality within your soul. If you are unable to do that-- please stop talking to me. I'll pray for you.

If a German citizen moves to a different country and gets rid of his citizenship, does he end up paying the reparations?
Sorry, but ancap ideals have to compromise with material realities such as people being born somewhere, whether they like it or not.

Until you are ready to admit that reparations are evil, I'd prefer not to talk to you again. It only makes me ill. Such depravity, so callously excused, with such twisted reasoning, in the face of clear evidence against it, sickens me to my stomach. I don't want to hear any more of your vomit-inducing madness.

I refuse to treat other states by ancap rules until me and my state start getting treated by the silly and exploitable ancap rules first.

 

[Skallagrim]

Nobody has asked you for reparations, @Marduk. So you're not being mistreated by Germany, under any rules. You're just an unrepentant looter, who wants to steal from young Germans for crimes committed by dead Germans, against Polish people who were not you.

So I repeat myself: introspection would do you good, since beneath your sophistry lies the rotten core of greed and avarice. You want to steal, and to still feel good. You want to hurt innocents, but pretend that they're guilty so that you can boast about it. You are, in short, very much like the Nazis. It seems they didn't lose the war after all. They won. They turned people like you into their inheritors, and so they still live on-- through you.

Think hard about your positions, and what they imply. And until you've seen the light, I beg of you: stop talking to me. I don't enjoy the excuses of evil people.

 

[Marduk]

Nobody has asked you for reparations, @Marduk. So you're not being mistreated by Germany, under any rules. You're just an unrepentant looter, who wants to steal from young Germans for crimes committed by dead Germans, against Polish people who were not you.

Well, apparently unfortunately by your ancap fantasy standards, Poland didn't exploit any country to dodge reparations this way.
However, Poland took a whole lot of loans under commie management ruled from Moscow, to float up their silly governance and Moscow, yet still Polish taxpayers, including me, had to pay those off.

Poland pays off communist debt

Poland has paid off the last of communism debt accumulated during the 1970s ‘golden years’, when western credits paid for a short-lived consumer boom.

archiwum.thenews.pl

Think hard about your positions, and what they imply. And until you've seen the lught, I beg of you: stop talking to me. I don't enjoy the excuses of evil people.

My position is that i will not favorably judge everyone else by a fantasy standard that no one sane will judge me by in return.
Make your ancap idealism the universally recognized standard in international politics, and then we can talk about it.

 

[Skallagrim]

My position is that i will not favorably judge everyone else by a fantasy standard that no one sane will judge me by in return.
Make your ancap idealism the universally recognized standard in international politics, and then we can talk about it.

Your rampant excuses now cross every line of logic. You asked for my general stance on governments, and now you try to make the whole debate about that. I must insist we put that "Ancap" matter aside: you are as obsessed about that as ATP is about Germany. You become deranged and fixated on it, apparently.

But reparations here are unacceptable regardless of that whole matter. Germany has (although I disagree with it!) accepted its supposed "collective" responsibility, and has paid enormous debts. That was all part of the post-war settlement, with which Poland agreed.

But now Poland suddenly says "ACKSHUWALLY, you owe us way more than agreed upon! Oh, and also, that post-war settlement was made by commies, and we're, uh, a new and FREE Poland, so we're entitled to a new deal!"

And that's madness. Because Poland suddenly shifts the goalposts. Not only that, but Poland excuses that by saying that post-Soviet Poland is a new entity that is entitled to a new settlement. But that means the Bundesrepublik is also a new entity, and therefore cannot be held to anything for which the Nazi regime was responsible, either.

But apparently, the "continuity of states" only applies to Germany, while Poland is allowed to dance around it? The hypocrisy is clear to sane men. But in any event: I don't know if we can actually block mods here, and I don't really want to -- so please, stop trying to pile your frankly reprehensible ideas up at my feet, okay? We're not going to agree on this. Let's leave it at that. So long as it's just ideas and opinions, we can just consider our opinions known, by this stage.

 

[Marduk]

Your rampant excuses now cross every line of logic. You asked for my general stance on governments, and now you try to make the whole debate about that. I must insist we put that "Ancap" matter aside: you are as obsessed about that as ATP is about Germany. You become deranged and fixated on it, apparently.

But reparations here are unacceptable regardless of that whole matter. Germany has (although I disagree with it!) accepted its supposed "collective" responsibility, and has paid enormous debts. That was all part of the post-war settlement, with which Poland agreed.

But didn't get a fair (reasonably scaled to cover the damages inflicted) amount of money due to shenanigans.

But now Poland suddenly says "ACKSHUWALLY, you owe us way more than agreed upon! Oh, and also, that post-war settlement was made by commies, and we're, uh, a new and FREE Poland, so we're entitled to a new deal!"

We compared the money we got and the damages. There is no way these two are even remotely close, no one can deny that. Something smells there obviously, the only questions are whose fault is that, and in turn, who should cover the difference.
And apparently the counterargument from our great friends and allies who pride themselves on always paying debts and volunteer to send money even to some shithole in Africa on account of that is: Haha, too late, suckers!

And that's madness. Because Poland suddenly shifts the goalposts. Not only that, but Poland excuses that by saying that post-Soviet Poland is a new entity that is entitled to a new settlement. But that means the Bundesrepublik is also a new entity, and therefore cannot be held to anything for which the Nazi regime was responsible, either.

But apparently, the "continuity of states" only applies to Germany, while Poland is allowed to dance around it? The hypocrisy is clear to sane men. But in any event: I don't know if we can actually block mods here, and I don't really want to -- so please, stop trying to pile your frankly reprehensible ideas up at my feet, okay? We're not going to agree on this. Let's leave it at that. So long as it's just ideas and opinions, we can just consider our opinions known, by this stage.

Pre-Soviet Poland was fully sovereign, so was Third Reich, so was Bundesrepublik, Soviet Poland, not really, there's your difference.

 

[Skallagrim]

Pre-Soviet Poland was fully sovereign, so was Third Reich, so was Bundesrepublik, Soviet Poland, not really, there's your difference.

BUT MUH CONTINUITY OF STATES!

It only applies when you want it to, huh?

For real this time: let this be the end of the discussion.

 

[Cherico]

Yes because POLAND STONK worked so well the last…two?…times.

The purple stripe on the polish flag represents relaible allies

 

[Marduk]

BUT MUH CONTINUITY OF STATES!

It only applies when you want it to, huh?

For real this time: let this be the end of the discussion.

Continuity of sovereign states, obviously?
If that wasn't an obvious caveat, someone, sometime in the past, would have it figured out, temporarily occupied countries around them, and made them sign a promise to send, say, 1000 tons of gold every year, in perpetuity, and expect the rest of the world to help make them honor this as a normal treaty.
Obviously things signed by non-sovereign countries are questionable.
Again, you can make no argument that Poland didn't get screwed out of proportional reparations for damages done to it in WW2 that all agree Poland should in theory be considered entitled to, at least a huge part of the sum it should expect, only attempt to maneuver around the justifiability of reparations in general, the timing, the morality of existence of states, and legal technicalities.
So we have a crime (conning Poland out of its reparations) that has been committed, the only questions are who did it (i'm not even insisting that it has to be Germany) and who should pay compensation for it.

 

[Skallagrim]

@Marduk.... I know you can't drop it, it seems to be an obsession, but really... I've asked you three times to stop talking to me. Stop now. Don't talk to me about this any more. I'm not engaging with your non-arguments anymore, you're being a hypocrite and you don't want to stop it, so further debate is senseless.

 

[LordsFire]

@Marduk.... I know you can't drop it, it seems to be an obsession, but really... I've asked you three times to stop talking to me. Stop now. Don't talk to me about this any more. I'm not engaging with your non-arguments anymore, you're being a hypocrite and you don't want to stop it, so further debate is senseless.

Stop responding to him if you want him to stop responding to you.

 

[ATP]

If we start "removing" them, do not stop us.


Fuck you, I hope your entire nation burns in Hell. We will not lift a damn finger to save your worthless hides when Russia goes for you.

1.They would remove you.Germans need state which told them to fight - and now,state is teaching how good islam is...
2.You would not come anyway.Unless as soviet allies,like in 1939.You were,are,and would be Moscov allies.
And - it seems,that we do not need to fear Moscov.
P.S we would burn in Hell - if we do not be faitful to Jesus and HIS Mother.Which mean,following germans.I hope,that we would choose Holy Mary,not Berlin.