Versus Match Ghengis Khan's Mongol Army vs Third Age Middle Earth

[Lord Sovereign]

It is the year 3019 of the Third Age, and the War of the Ring has begun.

Via Tzeentch or some other cruel god being a twat, Ghengis Khan along with some of his top generals (Subutai among them) arrives via portal with ten tumen of Mongol horesmen (a hundred thousand troops) right in the heart of the Shire. Once they've finished slaughtering half the population, brutalised the rest, and grazed their horses, the Great Khan decides to bring this new land entirely under his rule, as fate has ordained the Mongols masters of all.

So, a hundred thousand of some of history's scariest soldiers have turned up on Rivendell's veritable doorstep and laid waste to the Shire. Aforementioned warriors now wish to trample all Middle Earth beneath their mounts's hooves. How does Middle Earth react? Can the Free Peoples halt this advance, or will Mordor have to be an unlikely saviour? Because, given the military record of the Mongols, I'm not sure there's much Middle Earth can do. Massive fortified cities and huge mountain ranges are "been there, done that" territory for the Mongols. And it's the largest cavalry force seen since the War of Wrath most likely, so Rohan is most certainly stuffed. In short, in my view, LOTR's soundtrack goes from this to this.

I could see Genghis having some trouble as he is now very much on Gandalf's shit list, mind you. An angry Istari is nothing to sneeze at. And Minas Tirith would be a bastard to siege even with gunpowder armies. Then of course there are the unending legions of Mordor. But they are an infantry heavy force and the Mongols have faced far worse odds.

 

[Bassoe]

While conquering the Shire, he finds an interesting piece of jewelry among the plunder formerly owned by the local hairy-footed midgets. Cue shenanigans.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

While conquering the Shire, he finds an interesting piece of jewelry among the plunder formerly owned by the local hairy-footed midgets. Cue shenanigans.

That might actually be a win scenario for Middle Earth. Infighting made the Mongols manageable, and the One Ring can turn brother on brother like nothing else.

Still, there'd probably be a detatchment of about thirty thousand Mongols, under competent command, rampaging through the North. Illuvatar help Rivendell if it's Subutai.

 

[ATP]

That might actually be a win scenario for Middle Earth. Infighting made the Mongols manageable, and the One Ring can turn brother on brother like nothing else.

Still, there'd probably be a detatchment of about thirty thousand Mongols, under competent command, rampaging through the North. Illuvatar help Rivendell if it's Subutai.

Rohan destroyed,but Gondor is schielded by Mountains.Big horse army could not go there.
Czynghis with Ring could face Mordor forces - otherwise,Nazguls would made them scatter with their mind magic.Even Gondorians have problems facing it,lesser people like mongols would run.

So - Mongols without Ring - Sauron win and take them as another slaves.
Dzingiz with ring - Rohan destroyed,after that Mordor fight mongols and eventually win,too/when Dzingiz become Nazgul/

In both saces Eowyn and Arwen could end in Dzingis harem.Yuck.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

He loses.

Badly.

There's no been there and done that with cities founded by Numenor, the walls of Minas Tirith required sorcery to breach and Isengard itself was beyond even the Ents ability to damage.

These are the same people that built a kind of magical napalm that had a kiloton of force behind it yet couldn't fucking breach their own defenses with it and fucking solar powered light houses.

Gondor ain't falling and a combined army of Elves, men and Dwarves would smoke them like blunts.

And Denethor can literally mind rape Genghis if he feels so inclined because unlike his favorite son, Denethor was enough of a genetic throwback to Numenor that he could mind screw ordinary humans.

Gondor has also spent three thousand years at war with Mongol like people, whose allies have 80 foot elephants as their Cavalry. Soo

Edit - also Saruman voice rapes Genghis and subverts the entire army.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Put the Mongols against Westeros, it's a far more even match up and it was always hilarious watching ASOIF fan boys on SB seethe over it.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

There's no been there and done that with cities founded by Numenor, the walls of Minas Tirith required sorcery to breach and Isengard itself was beyond even the Ents ability to damage.

The Mongols would just starve them out in that case. There's no relief force coming that can deal with them. A single tumen would be left to keep aforementioned fortification surrounded and cut off, whilst the rest of the Mongol army burns everything within a hundred miles.

Elves? Good archers, but they haven't got the numbers and don't seem to have much in the way of cavalry.

Dwarves? Brutalising heavy infantry is a favourite past time for steppe nomads.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

The Mongols would just starve them out in that case. There's no relief force coming that can deal with them. A single tumen would be left to keep aforementioned fortification surrounded and cut off, whilst the rest of the Mongol army burns everything within a hundred miles.

The average Gondorian is stronger than the average baseline human, has better equipment than anything the Mongols have ever faced and are led by a guy who can reduce Genghis to a dribbling coma patient in the span of a single parley who has the ability to spy on him from thousands of miles away.

Elves? Good archers, but they haven't got the numbers and don't seem to have much in the way of cavalry.

Try "we can hit you with ten thousand arrows before you even know we are here. Mind fuck your entire camp and mobilize an entire army from a position of rest to active and ready to attack in about five seconds. Are four to ten times stronger than real world humans and can even March while.sleeping literally"

It took 60,000 Orcs to fuck up Thrandruils retard father and his 5 000 dudes plus allies.

A full on host of Elves is going to prison rape a Mongol Army.

Oh and that's leaving out Galadriel literally destroying a small mountain with magic

Elrod throwing around rivers and Cirdan having 20,000 years of combat experience against people who could demo island's with their mind.

Dwarves? Brutalising heavy infantry is a favourite past time for steppe nomads.

Not when said heavy Infantry can dead lift horses and has overwhelmingly superior armor.

The Mongols are nothing in Tolkiens setting. Fragmented Numenorean Kingdoms in the middle of civil wars fought Mongol like people for a thousand years and it took a magical bio weapon and an ice age to..oh wait no they didn't even beat them then.

Never mind.

Edit -
Like I know corporal troon, Octavian the Eternal Seetheposter and Leo the drunken Slav thought Barristan the Bold could beat Fingolfin and the crusader Kingdoms could solo the army of the west and argued the Mongols would win this very scenario.

But those three retards once spent 5 pages arguing that a US carrier group could defeat white beard, the Admirals, Garp and Mihawk plus Shanks as back up.

Because and I quote "they're just guys with swords and pikes in a series where the intended portrayal clearly depicts cannon balls and muskets being able to hurt them".

So, you know..

 

[Lord Sovereign]

But they've bugger all cavalry. Numenoreans might be supermen, but I don't think they can run faster than a horse. Neither can Dwarves or Elves. This, by the way, is how the Mongols won a shit ton of their battles.

Engage the enemy, force them to chase after you, pick them apart with arrows as their formation slowly falls apart, then flank or directly counter charge with your heavy lancers. Given that Dwarves are rather impetuous and stubborn creatures, that shouldn't be too much of a problem. The Mongols were also rather splendid at establishing intelligence networks, so they'd probably be aware of a fair few things.

Also, if Denethor mind rapes Genghis, violating the right of hospitality in a formal parley, then Genghis's generals coup Gondor's main army up in Minas Tirith and proceed to genocide the rest of Gondor.

Also, as for magic, this is the Third Age. Magic wasn't quite as potent then as it once was.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

But they've bugger all cavalry.

They spent a literal millennia fighting dudes who could pull off cavalry charges with armored elephants the size of humpback whales and managed to hold them off. The fat ass and the prince of Dol Armorth also had cavalry, heavy cavalry in fact and fat boy's horse were no joke. I'd need to reread ROTK but I'm pretty sure he reinforced the Rohirim when they went head to head with said whale sized elephants.

Numenoreans might be supermen, but I don't think they can run faster than a horse.

They could, actually. Numenoreans were the greatest horsemen to ever exist, but they were so physically superior they refused to put their beloved horses at risk and refused to let them fight in battle and would leave them at home. their bond was psychic so I'm pretty sure they left them at home for the same reason the Federation using the Kalebs at Klandethau was an unmitigated disaster.

Gondorians may be a watered down version of that, but they again don't really need to be their ancestors to stop this, as they're no strangers to dealing with super powers that based their military supremacy on cavalry...

Neither can Dwarves or Elves. This, by the way, is how the Mongols won a shit ton of their battles.

Elves absolutely can outrun horses, Dwarves don't need too because they can grab a horse by its legs and literally judo toss it at other riders.

Engage the enemy, force them to chase after you, pick them apart with arrows as their formation slowly falls apart, then flank or directly counter charge with your heavy lancers

And then the trap the Mongols think they sprung turns into a total bloodbath because the Dwarves and Dalemen were purposely triggering their envelopment because it would make it easier for Thranduil's archers to mass slaughter them from ranges they can't even counter.

The War in the North required something like three Nazgul and a host nearly the size of the one the Dark Tower threw against Gondor and Rohan and it ended with said host shattering at the footsteps of Erebor.

] Given that Dwarves are rather impetuous and stubborn creatures, that shouldn't be too much of a problem. The Mongols were also rather splendid at establishing intelligence networks, so they'd probably be aware of a fair few things.

And then they run into heavily armored, pint sized super soldiers whose armor can protect against everything from conventional weapons to poison gas and the acidic blood of dragons?

The last army that managed to humiliate a Dwarven host on the field of battle had a First Age dragon, a bunch of werewolves and trolls and what they got for their trouble was a Dwarven host so furiously enraged that their mere presence paralyzed all the fighting,.

Also, if Denethor mind rapes Genghis, violating the right of hospitality in a formal parley, then Genghis's generals coup Gondor's main army up in Minas Tirith and proceed to genocide the rest of Gondor.

Why would they assume it was magic that killed Genghis and not what usually killed Mongol leaders? IE massive strokes from a lifetime of overeating and intensive drinking? Denethor doesn't really need to use a word of command, all he has to do is start shooting the shit with Genghis to do it...

Plus the whole "Denethor in the books isn't a spastic moron but someone so incredibly charismatic he was making Gandalf look like a hobo with schizophrenia even to Pippin".

He doesn't really even need to fight 'em, he requests a parlay and suddenly Genghis head is filled with dreams of conquering the heathen East and becoming a close friend and ally and pupil of Denethor the wise...etc

Genghis might be strong willed enough not to get voice fucked, but he can still be screwed with mentally and again the Palantiri work differently in the novels than the movies.. Denethor used them to remote spy on armies and even mentally intrude on people.

Also, as for magic, this is the Third Age. Magic wasn't quite as potent then as it once was.

Yes, thank the Valar that Galadriel, who spent 3,500 years resisting mindrape by Sauron with such brutal ease he actually developed a neurotic insecurity about her and borderline started simping her, who held back entropic forces through sheer force of will and could wield a ring of power to do things even Sauron didn't really think was achievable..is...so..weak that she could only turn Dul Gulder into a deep smoking crater..and not smash the whole of mirkwood to tiny little splinters while she was at it.

Elrond's sorcery was so atrophied all he could do was throw a river at the Nazgul from miles away and not show up in person to stomp a mudhole in their faces..being the son of the dude who used the North star to kill a Dragon with a 26 mile wingspan.

Oh in other words, everything I listed above was shit they did in the third age

Nah but seriously...Middle Earth has way too many top tiers still around and too much gear/solid architecture for this.

Like I said pitting these guys against Westeros or Essos or shit even Velusia or Stigai or Khitai or Aquilonia is better.

Rohan destroyed,but Gondor is schielded by Mountains.Big horse army could not go there.
Czynghis with Ring could face Mordor forces - otherwise,Nazguls would made them scatter with their mind magic.Even Gondorians have problems facing it,lesser people like mongols would run.

So - Mongols without Ring - Sauron win and take them as another slaves.
Dzingiz with ring - Rohan destroyed,after that Mordor fight mongols and eventually win,too/when Dzingiz become Nazgul/

In both saces Eowyn and Arwen could end in Dzingis harem.Yuck.

Rohan might be able to beat them, the Mongols historically had shit luck with heavy armor and horse.

Might...

 

[Lord Sovereign]

So essentially the movies portrayal of the actual strength of Elves, Numenoreans and magic is absolutely horrible? Come to think of it, weren't orcs meant to be a great deal more disciplined and well equipped in the books?

Now, at least movie wise, Middle Earth would be in much hotter water. Imagine putting movie Denethor in a tent with Genghis Khan.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

So essentially the movies portrayal of the actual strength of Elves, Numenoreans and magic is absolutely horrible? Come to think of it, weren't orcs meant to be a great deal more disciplined and well equipped in the books?]

Yeah, you know the whole fight Gandalf had with the Balrog? It looked like a hurricane to joe blow farmers a hundred miles away. prior to that Frodo confuses a duel between Gandalf and a bunch of ring wraiths with a thunderstorm when he's a day or two away from his spot.

Arwen didn't summon the river, it was Elrond protecting Glorfindel this Elf who died killing a Balrog then got brought back to life as a body guard to the Istari (Least that's the theory.) and the Ring Wraiths very lazily did their jobs in chasing Frodo because they wanted nothing to do with Glorfindel and when finally forced to confront him Elrond dropped a river on them so his boy Glorfindel didn't have to get all sweaty beating the merciless fuck out of a bunch of steroid ghosts.

The battle before the Black Gates where Sauron fought Elendil and Isildur? In reality he fought Gil-Galad, Elrond,. Cirdan, Isildur and Elendil. In that fight Sauron grabbed Gil-Galad a first age elf by the throat and melted his damn face off with his aura anime style than choke slammed him to death before turning to face the rest.

All the bad ass elves got BTFO'd by Sauron and Elendil proceeds to beat Sauron to death before dying because the heat of Sauron's aura is so strong this titan of a human is literally cooked to death protecting his friends. Their bodies fall with such violence an unbreakable sword shatters below their corpses and this is after a seven year long siege, where something like a hundred and twenty thousand Elves and Numenoreans and their allies rampage through the lands of Mordor taking on a force ten times their number before driving them to the black gates and entrapping them in a seven year long siege that culminates in the above desperate last stand by Sauron and the Numenoreans tearing down the Dark Tower in revenge for the death of their High King.

Now, yeah the third age Gondorians interbred enough with regular dudes that they're watered down and the kingdom of Gondor though rich in farmlands and vassals is a pale shadow of a pale shadow of the Realms in Exile...But its still strong enough to be the premier western military power and second only to Mordor.

Now, at least movie wise, Middle Earth would be in much hotter water.

Genghis would end up taking the title "Lord of all the Earth" and the Horde would be known as the second coming of Ar-Pharazon and his golden legions...In the films.

Imagine putting movie Denethor in a tent with Genghis Khan.

He'd get prison wife'd by Genghis

In the novel he is a much..more tragic figure.

Basically Denethor was like Aragorn, enough of the blood of old Numenor was in his veins that he would have likely lived two and a half centuries had he not been ravaged by Sauron...

Basically Minas Tirith had a Palantiri and Denethor had divine stewardship of it, he also had rank over the Palantir that Sauron had, which actually allowed him to get inside the mind of Sauron.

Trouble is Sauron is a being older than the universe who was a specialist in psychic torture and mental intrusion...He was known as king shit of mind raping in the first and second age...So between the truly alien nature of his mind and these skills...even with Denthor protected by mandate over the palantir Denethor aged faster from the sheer stress of it all and then Sauron started trolling him with exaggerated intel and basically blackpilled Denethor until he went batshit insane from the mental stress and despair.

Dude was a patriot, a good man who wanted to protect his people who crawled inside the darkest mind in the universe since the first age and went mad and ended up alienating his kids as a result.

They did Denethor dirty In the movie where he's a cunt who doesn't deserve to be in the presence of Chingis

In the novels he's a man who I could honestly see the Khan of Khans respecting even without the magic, because he was a man who literally fought a devil for the sake of his people.

 

[ATP]

Mongols was mostly horse archers/6.000/ and heavy calvary/4000/ with added 500 nfrantry,mostly engineers,in one tumen.

They would easily destroy Rohan/poor Eowyn!/ ,but other enemies -
1.Elves would schoot them from afar.
2.Dwarwes would do not care about arrows,and repel all charges
3.The same for most gondorian forces/some vassal forces could lost becouse of worst weapons/
4.Mordor orcs would die,but trolls would not.And one Wraith would send mongols to mommy.
5.Harad muakils would not let them attack rest of Harad army.
6.Easterlings - teir heavy infrantry and calvary would die without Nazgul,problem is - Sauron had 9 of them.
7.Saruman uruks would die - unless Saruman himself would go with them.And mindrape Czyngiz.
8.Rhun - little we knew about them,so probably would be defeated.

In other worlds - except Shire,Bree and Rohan,mongols would not get much.
But - when Sauron take over them,they could tip the balance and let him win.And they would live as his servants,maybe he even let Czingiz keep Eowyn in harem.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Mongols was mostly horse archers/6.000/ and heavy calvary/4000/ with added 500 nfrantry,mostly engineers,in one tumen.

They would easily destroy Rohan/poor Eowyn!/ ,but other enemies -
1.Elves would schoot them from afar.
2.Dwarwes would do not care about arrows,and repel all charges
3.The same for most gondorian forces/some vassal forces could lost becouse of worst weapons/
4.Mordor orcs would die,but trolls would not.And one Wraith would send mongols to mommy.
5.Harad muakils would not let them attack rest of Harad army.
6.Easterlings - teir heavy infrantry and calvary would die without Nazgul,problem is - Sauron had 9 of them.
7.Saruman uruks would die - unless Saruman himself would go with them.And mindrape Czyngiz.
8.Rhun - little we knew about them,so probably would be defeated.

In other worlds - except Shire,Bree and Rohan,mongols would not get much.
But - when Sauron take over them,they could tip the balance and let him win.And they would live as his servants,maybe he even let Czingiz keep Eowyn in harem.

Movie wise yeah I can see it playing out like this.

This is also why people kept telling Eric D he needed to use Gondor and Arnor not the United realm in exile because otherwise it was a stomp fic and he kept insisting that nah it wasn't until he realized and just gave up.