Gun Political Issues Megathread. (Control for or Against?)

[Megadeath]

First, compare gun murders because "gun deaths" include the suicides that aren't going away without quite specifically punishing law-abiding citizens for society being fucked, then see what happens to the number when you take out the 14% demographic responsible for the plurality.

"Gun deaths" aren't remotely unusual for a first world country where it's a first world country. It's the ghettos being violent shitholes, not that the US has a stupid amount of guns.

The suicides are an important part of the statistic, because they are often deaths that wouldn't happen without that easy access to firearms. Suicide is usually a snap decision by someone going through a crisis moment. The easier and quicker the means of suicide that is available, the more likely it is that there will be an attempt before they pass that moment. Gun suicides also have one of the highest "success" rates for any method of suicide.

@Bear Ribs on top of that previous explanation for why I believe suicide figures are relevant, even if we ignore them and use your figures we see that the US is 4-5 times more murderous than other first world countries and that's messed up.

 

[Arlos]

I’ll say this as an European, I think your gun deaths problems is at least partially related to your absolutely ridiculous gang problems compared to basically everyone else.
Also, having gun-free zone when its so easy to get a gun is patently stupid, no matter how you look at it.
That’s about all I’ll say on this, since I am not qualified to speak more.

 

[Doomsought]

The suicides are an important part of the statistic, because they are often deaths that wouldn't happen without that easy access to firearms. Suicide is usually a snap decision by someone going through a crisis moment. The easier and quicker the means of suicide that is available, the more likely it is that there will be an attempt before they pass that moment. Gun suicides also have one of the highest "success" rates for any method of suicide.

So what.

What does the health of an unrelated person have to do with my right to property and right to self defense? Nothing.

 

[LindyAF]

I wonder if the US, particularly the most violent and murderous areas, has anything in common with other very violent and murderous second and third world countries, and dissimilar from "First World Countries" or "Western Democracies."

Can't quite put my finger on what that could be, though.

 

[DocSolarisReich]

I wonder if the US, particularly the most violent and murderous areas, has anything in common with other very violent and murderous second and third world countries, and dissimilar from "First World Countries" or "Western Democracies."

Can't quite put my finger on what that could be, though.

Hmmmmmm, I can't quite pick it out.

 

[Zachowon]

I’ll say this as an European, I think your gun deaths problems is at least partially related to your absolutely ridiculous gang problems compared to basically everyone else.
Also, having gun-free zone when its so easy to get a gun is patently stupid, no matter how you look at it.
That’s about all I’ll say on this, since I am not qualified to speak more.

That doesn't stop others from commenting lol.
You also come from a country not as dense in population in some areas.
And you have noticed the two biggest issues....

Fun fact, most black on black crime is not brought to attention of the media

 

[Morphic Tide]

Suicide is usually a snap decision by someone going through a crisis moment. The easier and quicker the means of suicide that is available, the more likely it is that there will be an attempt before they pass that moment.

Okay, then bring up the overall suicide rate because people in Europe are still trying. Murder vs. murder, suicide vs. suicide, these have fundamentally different underlying causes to look at before going after means.

And if we are looking at means, how about we ban cigarettes and alcohol first, or put prescription painkillers on controlled substance lists, because those do far more damage to the public than firearms by every metric.

 

[Megadeath]

Okay, then bring up the overall suicide rate because people in Europe are still trying. Murder vs. murder, suicide vs. suicide, these have fundamentally different underlying causes to look at before going after means.

And if we are looking at means, how about we ban cigarettes and alcohol first, or put prescription painkillers on controlled substance lists, because those do far more damage to the public than firearms by every metric.

Who said anything about banning anything? All I've said is that a disproportionately large number of Americans die gun deaths, and that Americans are more likely to be murdered than other first world nationals.

 

[Morphic Tide]

Who said anything about banning anything? All I've said is that a disproportionately large number of Americans die gun deaths, and that Americans are more likely to be murdered than other first world nationals.

You mention this in a thread about gun politics. Specifically noting the restriction of firearm ownership as a central topic. And begin with a list of mass shootings saying they'd be headlines in Europe. Mentioning it here inherently implies tackling the gun part of the issue, not the murder or suicide part. Which really just goes to show how utterly fucked the discourse on the topic is by making the issues about the tool rather than the crime.

 

[Free-Stater 101]

In which of the incidents I mentioned were "criminals killed by their would be victims"? How well did the idea that only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun work out in any of those recent tragedies?

I don't know how many of them were committed in a gun free area? How many people in those areas had a gun on them? And ultimately how did police or civilians stop said shooter?

 

[Bear Ribs]

In which of the incidents I mentioned were "criminals killed by their would be victims"? How well did the idea that only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun work out in any of those recent tragedies?

The drive-by at Stockton is one obvious one given the "victims" refuse to speak to the police. The one in Philadelphia is sketchy on details but also appears to be a case where the victim defended himself with a firearm from what I can tell.

The suicides are an important part of the statistic, because they are often deaths that wouldn't happen without that easy access to firearms. Suicide is usually a snap decision by someone going through a crisis moment. The easier and quicker the means of suicide that is available, the more likely it is that there will be an attempt before they pass that moment. Gun suicides also have one of the highest "success" rates for any method of suicide.

@Bear Ribs on top of that previous explanation for why I believe suicide figures are relevant, even if we ignore them and use your figures we see that the US is 4-5 times more murderous than other first world countries and that's messed up.

@Arlos has the right of it though, cut out the drug gangs in southern California and the US crime rate drops to around typical European levels. The 4-5 times increase is because the US borders an unstable nation on the southern side who's absolutely massive violence problem spills over through poorly controlled borders that goes underreported.

As for suicide, that's been proven a falsehood for a long time, as is gun control helping with murder. Let's take a look at Australia and the UK vs. the US.

Australia did a confiscation in 96, the UK in 97. Here's the results: amazingly, the gun ban in both nations actually dramatically raised their homicide level (this is actually true of a supermajority of gun bans if you look at the numbers) while US violence with no gun ban continued in a downward track at the same time, in both gun and non-gun violence.

Can you tell where the big drop from the gun ban happened in suicide? No? Remember it was '96 from the chart above, so right before a big spike.

 

[Bacle]

So now we know the ID of the shooter, and it's not what the Left is going to want it to be.


Now lets see the media go mum about the shooters background and possible motivations.

Edit: He's apperently a Syrian who came to the US at the age of 3 and is a US citizen.

 

[Bacle]

Update:


So once again the FBI flubs on a possible Muslim terrorist/shooting suspect.

This story will be buried and forgotten except, or the shooters ID not mentioned by press because it conflicts with the narrative many eager beavers wanted to push about 'white supremacy' being responsible.

 

[Bacle]

Further update:


'Mental illness and bullied for being Muslim' are the excuses the shooters brother is giving.

Edit: Oh, and looks like he was on FBI radar for being connected to someone else they are looking at.



$10 says the other person is also a Muslim with possible extremist views or a grudge against the US.

 

[Bacle]

So, if this is legit, the shooter had other targets initially, but they changed due to Covid.

What I find weird about his target selection is that Boulder, CO is one of the most progressive, Trump-hating towns in CO.

 

[bullethead]

What I find weird about his target selection is that Boulder, CO is one of the most progressive, Trump-hating towns in CO.

He either lived in the area or thought that doing the crime there would be more shocking because of how anti-gun it probably is.

 

[Bacle]

He either lived in the area or thought that doing the crime there would be more shocking because of how anti-gun it probably is.

Well they did say he lived in Arvada, which is not that far from Boulder, so I guess there is that.

But I guess trying to see logic or reason in most shooters is a pointless exercise.

Edit: And I just found out a cousin of mine used to live right behind that King Soopers, and knew some of the people killed because she shopped there for so long.

This like the 3-4th mass shooting in CO where I've ended up either knowing people in it, or being close to those who do know people in it.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Well they did say he lived in Arvada, which is not that far from Boulder, so I guess there is that.

But I guess trying to see logic or reason in most shooters is a pointless exercise.

UPDATED: Mass Public Shootings keep occurring in Gun-Free Zones: 94% of attacks since 1950 - Crime Prevention Research Center

UPDATED on July 6th, 2019: Original title:

crimeresearch.org

A supermajority of spree shooters (94% going back to 1950) aim for areas where they know there will be no civilian guns available to fire back. Some of them such as the manifesto of the shooter in the El Paso mass shooting straight up state it as part of their strategy. The ones that don't... picked the wrong place.

 

[DocSolarisReich]

So, if this is legit, the shooter had other targets initially, but they changed due to Covid.

What I find weird about his target selection is that Boulder, CO is one of the most progressive, Trump-hating towns in CO.

Obviously his fibbie handler wanted him to get in the news and didn’t particularly care how.

 

[Zachowon]

Shootings take place in places people won't shoot back.
Then you have ones where they go to a place where people ha e guns and well.

There was that church where so many people pulled guns and ir fired them at the guy who barged in