How do American Christians justify the American revolution?

Rended onto God what is god's and render onto Caesar what is Caesar's. ;)
Admittedly this. God doesn't care one way or the other about secular powers. In fact the first wake revival whatever you want to call it involved all the Christians becoming nomads due to persecution and scattering to the 4 corners of the earth and adapting to whatever society would tolerate them very similar to how the jews lived.

However, America is Unique in the sense that government authority comes from the written word and not a person or government body, and said written word does give us various rights and the right to rebel in the case of the government breaking the law of the constitution. (Though you would still have many argue that Christians are supposed to be pacifists to revolutions are still off the table for a Christian) so America is special in that regard and it's something people have taken for granted to the point of apathy.

(and yes it can be argued that the government has not been legitimate even as far back as 1865)


TL;DR There is no justification, it's just another mark in history, That being said whatever their spiritual fate is, their loss whether through death or condemnation, is our gain. much like Judas being part of the apostles or the fall of the kingdom of Israel.
 
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Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
Rended onto God what is god's and render onto Caesar what is Caesar's. ;)
For as much as Christians insisted on martyring themselves at Rome’s hands during its early days, it’s curious how Jesus himself sets up an “off-ramp” with that quote.

As I understand it, for all the trouble he caused the priests, Jesus never openly defied the Romans.
 

Free-Stater 101

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At least here is something talking about natural law. But if you could go into detail and explain what are rights and how do derive them from the Bible alone because otherwise how would sola scriptura protestants find them. Because you need to show that something is a right in the first place under Christianity, and many things the enlightenment thought up are not "god given rights" God told Christians to obey Caesar who usurped power from a constitutional Republic after all to have the authority of a king. So I don't see how you would have a right to freedom or representation or a voice in government if God said that Caesar an absolute monarch is to be obeyed.
Ah the age-old Caesar quote once again taken out of context.

Look I hate to break it to you but the primary point of Jesus's response to the Pharisees question concerning Rome and Ceasar was that he was on earth to lead a spiritual revolution not an armed one against the Romans and thus his whole statement here is very specific to the circumstances he is in.

The entire point of the Pharisees question was to put Jesus in a catch 22 of public opinion by either making him look like a rebel to the Romans or to make him say something that would make it seem like he was in approval of the Romans.

In short Jesus isn't saying this because he thinks the Romans are a good government for the Jews nor is he making a statement to reflect this same opinion across all the ages into other conflicts regardless of circumstance, it's simply him saying he is there to preach and has no intentions of fighting any conflicts on earth.
 

Circle of Willis

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At least here is something talking about natural law. But if you could go into detail and explain what are rights and how do derive them from the Bible alone because otherwise how would sola scriptura protestants find them. Because you need to show that something is a right in the first place under Christianity, and many things the enlightenment thought up are not "god given rights" God told Christians to obey Caesar who usurped power from a constitutional Republic after all to have the authority of a king. So I don't see how you would have a right to freedom or representation or a voice in government if God said that Caesar an absolute monarch is to be obeyed.

The concept of natural law within the Christian framework is articulated by Saint Paul in the pages of the Bible, specifically 2 Romans,

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;

Basically, he observed that even though Gentiles (such as the Romans) obviously did not follow and in most cases probably weren't aware of Mosaic Law (the highest law that matters to any Jew), still abided by core elements of that Mosaic Law, demonstrating that there must be at least some universal laws endowed in the hearts of men everywhere by their Creator and which they innately understood & followed even if they have yet to encounter & formally adopt the revealed divine truth (be it through the Ten Commandments or Jesus and his Apostles).

For example, the Romans were huge on the family & treating one's parents with the utmost respect and honor, long before they would have heard of the 4th/5th Commandment (where 'honor thy father & mother' goes varies a bit by sect). They also shared the Jews' understanding of alcohol on a basic level - fine in moderation and not something to be banned entirely, but horrible in excess - and Roman philosophers like Lucretius condemned alcoholism before the birth of Christ or the Romans' replacement of the Hasmoneans in Judea with the Herodians, while Mark Antony's alcoholism was one of the many vices held against him by his enemies. Since it is apparent that certain laws transcend borders, cultures and dynasties, and all things were made by God, then it's logical (and while it was mostly Catholics who were big on using reason to improve one's understanding of God's works, not all Protestants were of an anti-intellectual bent either) to conclude that God must have made these laws and set them above the jurisdiction of whatever lines Caesar draws on a map. And since God made men in His own image, it is further only reasonable to also conclude that to live by the natural law is to manifest that Godly image and strive to live like Christ, as Christians are called to do.

It would be impossible to explain the theories of Saint Augustine (who it should be noted is not only revered by Catholics, but also greatly respected by many Protestants - especially Calvinists, whose core idea of predestination started with him) & Thomas Aquinas in great detail over the course of a single forum post, so if you want that, as trite as it may sound I would have to advise you to do your own research into the thoughts of those Christian sages and draw your own conclusions. Suffice to say, however, that men like these did not only cite each other but also the Bible to justify their theories. For yet another example, a famous saying of Aquinas' is that 'an unjust law is no law at all', which he derived from an earlier saying of Augustine's and extrapolated that the conditions to determine a law's legitimacy reflect the conditions of the natural law itself:

1) It serves the common good (refer to the example of the shared Judaic & Roman condemnation of alcoholism, which they both understood to be socially destructive);
2) It is within the legitimate authority of the lawmaker to issue this law (God's authority is universal so there's no problem there, the same can't be said of Caesar's authority);
3) The burden of this law applies equally, none are specially exempted from it (again, Paul noted that the Romans and other Gentiles were already obeying the natural law despite not being Jews and thus subject to the divinely-revealed Mosaic Law).

These theories are based on yet more pages of the Bible, in this case the Book of Isaiah being the most relevant. Isaiah 1:17 calls on believers to seek justice & protect the oppressed, Isaiah 10 starts with a stern divine condemnation of oppression and specifically calls out the issuance of unjust laws & decrees as an offense in God's eye, and Isaiah 58 defines actively loosening the bonds of injustice and breaking the yoke of the oppressed as the sort of 'fasting' which He approves of. And so on, so forth.

To add to what Free-Stater 101 said already, Jesus' mention of rendering unto Caesar comes after he has identified the Pharisees' denarius as bearing the image of Caesar. But in the Christian worldview, all men bear the image of God in which they were created. While Caesar may have minted that coin, he obviously did not create the human race. Thus indeed, let each be rendered unto their maker: give the coin which Caesar made to him as is only fair, but then let all men give themselves over to God's law & judgment by the same standard, Caesar himself most certainly included.

The interpretation of 'render unto Caesar' that you're arguing for - that men were commanded to slavishly obey the earthly authorities represented by Caesar - is so extreme and servile that not even the Orthodox, the most consistently statist of the major Christian denominations, support it. If they did, they wouldn't have made people like Mark of Ephesus saints for standing against the secular powers' wishes in defense of divine truth, even though the stakes were much higher for Christendom then than in the American Revolution. Jesus himself rejected it, because if he didn't, he would have bowed to the demands of the Jewish high priests or at least to Caesar's representative Pontius Pilate; instead when Pilate starts rambling about how he has the power to release or crucify Christ, Christ reminds him that even Caesar must answer to a higher authority still. In fact it's an interpretation that I can only find support for in the words of absolute monarchs (real and wanna-be) and their sycophants from the Early Modern period, like this excerpt from a speech by James I to Parliament:

The state of monarchy is the supremest thing upon earth; for kings are not only God's lieutenants upon earth, and sit upon God's throne, but even by God himself are called gods. There be three principal similitudes that illustrate the state of monarchy: one taken out of the word of God; and the two other out of the grounds of policy and philosophy. In the Scriptures kings are called gods, and so their power after a certain relation compared to the divine power. Kings are also compared to fathers of families: for a king is truly Parens patriae, the politique father of his people. And lastly, kings are compared to the head of this microcosm of the body of man.

Kings are justly called gods, for that they exercise a manner or resemblance of divine power upon earth: for if you will consider the attributes to God, you shall see how they agree in the person of a king. God hath power to create or destroy make or unmake at his pleasure, to give life or send death, to judge all and to be judged nor accountable to none; to raise low things and to make high things low at his pleasure, and to God are both souls and body due. And the like power have kings: they make and unmake their subjects, they have power of raising and casting down, of life and of death, judges over all their subjects and in all causes and yet accountable to none but God only. . . .

I conclude then this point touching the power of kings with this axiom of divinity, That as to dispute what God may do is blasphemy....so is it sedition in subjects to dispute what a king may do in the height of his power. But just kings will ever be willing to declare what they will do, if they will not incur the curse of God. I will not be content that my power be disputed upon; but I shall ever be willing to make the reason appear of all my doings, and rule my actions according to my laws.

Which, on top of being erroneous (how God deals with Pharaoh in Exodus exemplifies what He thinks of so-called 'god-kings'), is downright blasphemous. Describing kings as gods who casually wield power over life & death like God Himself and deserve a similar or even the same degree of reverence as He does obviously violates the First Commandment, and again, was a concept rejected by Jesus himself in Pilate's court. Now you might argue that the above interpretation of 'render unto Caesar' I gave is self-serving, but I would argue to the contrary; that in fact it serves the many and honors God, while the absolutist interpretation is the one which serves only the self (specifically, the king arguing that he should have absolute power because he is like God or literally a lesser god himself) and violates every single one of the three precepts which determine whether or not a law is just according to Aquinas.

Again though can you show where the things that the enlightenment thinkers called rights were recognized as such by any Christian before the American or French revolution?

I just gave you examples in my previous post. John Lilburne outlined the concept of 'freeborn rights' more than a century before the ARW. The same John Milton from before articulated the right of the people to overthrow & execute a tyrant for trampling on their God-given rights in The Tenure of Kings and Magistrates, explicitly naming the right to 'to dispose and œconomize in the Land which God hath giv'n them, as Maisters of Family in thir own house and free inheritance' as the inalienable root of all liberty without which people cannot be free men, merely slaves - again this was from 1649, little more than a century before the American Revolution. And going centuries back to the Peasants' Revolt of 1381 (the study of which was popularized in America by the Revolution) you had John Ball, a proto-Protestant heretic (specifically a Lollard), famously proclaiming:

When Adam delved and Eve span, Who was then the gentleman? From the beginning all men by nature were created alike, and our bondage or servitude came in by the unjust oppression of naughty men. For if God would have had any bondsmen from the beginning, he would have appointed who would have had any bond and who free. And therefore I exhort you to consider that now the time is come, appointed to us by God, in which ye may, if ye will, cast off the yoke of bondage, and recover liberty. I counsel you therefore well to bethink yourselves, and to take good hearts unto you, that after the manner of a good husband that tilleth his ground, and riddeth out thereof such evil weeds as choke and destroy the good corn, you may destroy first the great lords of the realm, and after, the judges and lawyers, and questmongers, and all other who have undertaken to be against the commons. For so shall you procure peace and surety to yourselves in time to come; and by dispatching out of the way the great men, there shall be an equality in liberty, and no difference in degrees of nobility; but like dignity and equal authority in all things brought in among you.
 
Ah the age-old Caesar quote once again taken out of context.

Look I hate to break it to you but the primary point of Jesus's response to the Pharisees question concerning Rome and Ceasar was that he was on earth to lead a spiritual revolution not an armed one against the Romans and thus his whole statement here is very specific to the circumstances he is in.

The entire point of the Pharisees question was to put Jesus in a catch 22 of public opinion by either making him look like a rebel to the Romans or to make him say something that would make it seem like he was in approval of the Romans.

In short Jesus isn't saying this because he thinks the Romans are a good government for the Jews nor is he making a statement to reflect this same opinion across all the ages into other conflicts regardless of circumstance, it's simply him saying he is there to preach and has no intentions of fighting any conflicts on earth.

very much this. I also thought it was meant to be a slight towards the Pharisees, here these guys who are supposed to be the spiritual leaders of the jews, getting involved in intrigue.
 
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Skallagrim

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Ah the age-old Caesar quote once again taken out of context.

I also thought it was meant to be a slight towards the Pharisees, here these guys are supposed to be the spiritual leaders of the jews, getting involved in intrigue.

Yes. Speifically, Jesus is pointing out their hypocrisy without saying it as an accusation. The question itself has clear implications. "Whose coin is this? Whose image is on it?"

It's the coin of Tiberius Caesar, and his image is on it. Along with his full title... in which he claims to be a god.

Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

By even having that coin, they go against their own stated principles, and Jesus has in fact caught them in the exact bind they tried to set for Him. They cannot answer the question without admitting their error.
 
Yes. Speifically, Jesus is pointing out their hypocrisy without saying it as an accusation. The question itself has clear implications. "Whose coin is this? Whose image is on it?"

It's the coin of Tiberius Caesar, and his image is on it. Along with his full title... in which he claims to be a god.

Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

By even having that coin, they go against their own stated principles, and Jesus has in fact caught them in the exact bind they tried to set for Him. They cannot answer the question without admitting their error.

heh so he was actually giving THEM out by separating God and ceaser.
 

S'task

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Got to say, for an ancient hippie wandering the desert, Jesus was quite a clever man. I didn’t realise he was all but immolating the people trying to word trap him with the Caesar quote.
Yeah, it's actually a really layered exchange that to often gets simplified down to "Jesus was telling people to pay their taxes" because the simple surface level reading is that. And in a sense, he was telling them that, Jesus quite clearly submitted himself to the government in the time and place he lived, up to and including being unjustly killed by said government; however, I would caution against that last part being taken to mean that Christians should also be willing to suffer injustice, as to unjustly die was the entire mission of Christ so that his death, and subsequent resurrections, could serve as a sacrifice to redeem the rest of us from our own just death and damnation.
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
being unjustly killed by said government;
Ironically, for an Empire so prolific at massacring Christians, the first Christian they executed wasn’t entirely Rome’s fault. Governor Pilate was effectively pushed into ordering the execution and he all but threw his hands up in exasperation by the end.

That aside, whilst many Christians were quite happy to martyr themselves, I think Jesus might have oddly disapproved of it. “God knows your faith, don’t throw your lives away. I sorted all that out” sort of thing.

Submit if you must, resist if you can; he came with a sword after all.
 

S'task

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Ironically, for an Empire so prolific at massacring Christians, the first Christian they executed wasn’t entirely Rome’s fault. Governor Pilate was effectively pushed into ordering the execution and he all but threw his hands up in exasperation by the end.

That aside, whilst many Christians were quite happy to martyr themselves, I think Jesus might have oddly disapproved of it. “God knows your faith, don’t throw your lives away. I sorted all that out” sort of thing.

Submit if you must, resist if you can; he came with a sword after all.
Actually, that was the case for a lot of the early Christian martyrs. It wasn't the Romans at the forefront of the persecution, it was the Jewish authorities who went after them hard. For much the same reason they went after Christ. The new Christian faith threatened the Jewish religious leadership's authority and power, while it didn't threaten Rome's. To Rome the entire thing was some dumb inner-Jewish religious squabble that so long as they didn't disrupt Rome's rule they didn't care.

It wasn't until Christianity began spreading OUTSIDE the Jews that Rome started getting nervous about it, and later persecuting it, as Christianity was seen as disruptive to the general social fabric of Rome with it's monotheism and rejection of the gods and the traditions surrounding their worship. Jews weren't a subversive element in that in that Judaism was not inherently missionary. The only Romans who might adopt Jewish religion were those who married into a Jewish family and that was minor enough to not be a concern. But once Christianity turned missionary to gentiles and how it impacted all the established religious temples and the Imperial Cult... then it got the Roman's attention.
 

Agent23

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Actually, that was the case for a lot of the early Christian martyrs. It wasn't the Romans at the forefront of the persecution, it was the Jewish authorities who went after them hard. For much the same reason they went after Christ. The new Christian faith threatened the Jewish religious leadership's authority and power, while it didn't threaten Rome's. To Rome the entire thing was some dumb inner-Jewish religious squabble that so long as they didn't disrupt Rome's rule they didn't care.

It wasn't until Christianity began spreading OUTSIDE the Jews that Rome started getting nervous about it, and later persecuting it, as Christianity was seen as disruptive to the general social fabric of Rome with it's monotheism and rejection of the gods and the traditions surrounding their worship. Jews weren't a subversive element in that in that Judaism was not inherently missionary. The only Romans who might adopt Jewish religion were those who married into a Jewish family and that was minor enough to not be a concern. But once Christianity turned missionary to gentiles and how it impacted all the established religious temples and the Imperial Cult... then it got the Roman's attention.
Funny enough YouTube decided to spam me with "bring the gospel back to Israel" ads a while back. :ROFLMAO:

Anyway, jokes aside, yeah, Rome was fine with the Jews doing their things as long as they didn't rebel, in fact, Rome was more than happy to assimilate other religions, like for example the cult of Isis and the like.

They were against atheists though, and religions that did not do sacrifices and worship at temples.

Ultimately, though, they took Christianity and converted it into a de facto state religion later on, since the old mode was not working anymore.

Not thst it saved the (Western) Roman Empire.

Supreme Pontiff= Pontifex Maximus.

Easter = Ishtar.

Many of the demons and devils = old, pagan deities.

And the whole idea about the divine right of kings was probably grafted on, too.
 

S'task

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Easter = Ishtar.
This is completely false. There's absolutely no evidence of any link between these two. There's no linguistic connection between the Old German word that became Easter and the ancient Mesopotamian languages from where Ishtar originated, nor is there any real conceivable way for the word to have gone from Mesopotamia to Germany.
 

Skallagrim

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Easter = Ishtar

This is completely false. There's absolutely no evidence of any link between these two. There's no linguistic connection between the Old German word that became Easter and the ancient Mesopotamian languages from where Ishtar originated, nor is there any real conceivable way for the word to have gone from Mesopotamia to Germany.

Precisely. The source of this claim is an old meme made by an atheist activist who tried to claim that "Chrisiantity stole everything". I see it's still being used for such nonsense.

Linguistically, "Easter" comes from "Ostara"/"Eostre" (and variations); the old name for a Germanic goddess associated with spring and fertility. Pesach became "Easter" in English because that was already the name for the "spring-time festival" in Germanic languages. (To compare: in Dutch, the term is 'Pasen', from 'Pesach', but an archaic term is 'Ooster', from 'Ostara').

Note that Ostara/Eostre is also linguistically related to "East", i.e. where the sun rises (dawn/rebirth). So if you want to link it to an ancient non-Germanic goddess, the obvious candidate is the Greek dawn goddess... Eos.
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
"Ostara"/"Eostre" (and variations);
The former is what my German cousins called her, and the latter is the name my forefathers (Saxons) used for her. I believe the Northman equivalent was Idunn.

Useless trivia of the day if anyone wanted to know.

And yes the Ishtar connection is a touch tenuous. The Indo-Europeans and the Semitic peoples culturally evolved almost entirely separately from one another. And Ishtar derives from Innana, the Sumerian Queen Goddess, and we have fuck all idea where the Sumerians came from. The Akkadians themselves had fuck all idea where the Sumerians came from, come to think of it.
 

S'task

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Precisely. The source of this claim is an old meme made by an atheist activist who tried to claim that "Chrisiantity stole everything". I see it's still being used for such nonsense.

Linguistically, "Easter" comes from "Ostara"/"Eostre" (and variations); the old name for a Germanic goddess associated with spring and fertility. Pesach became "Easter" in English because that was already the name for the "spring-time festival" in Germanic languages. (To compare: in Dutch, the term is 'Pasen', from 'Pesach', but an archaic term is 'Ooster', from 'Ostara').

Note that Ostara/Eostre is also linguistically related to "East", i.e. where the sun rises (dawn/rebirth). So if you want to link it to an ancient non-Germanic goddess, the obvious candidate is the Greek dawn goddess... Eos.
Of further note, there's also very sparce evidence for the existence of this goddess, with only one reference in historical texts and potentially related names being used elsewhere in old German areas. Also, anyone claiming anything related to the worship of this goddess is pure speculation, including people who claim it was where the Easter Bunny originated, as the earliest record of the Easter Hair only goes back to 17th century Germany.
 

Agent23

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Precisely. The source of this claim is an old meme made by an atheist activist who tried to claim that "Chrisiantity stole everything". I see it's still being used for such nonsense.

Linguistically, "Easter" comes from "Ostara"/"Eostre" (and variations); the old name for a Germanic goddess associated with spring and fertility. Pesach became "Easter" in English because that was already the name for the "spring-time festival" in Germanic languages. (To compare: in Dutch, the term is 'Pasen', from 'Pesach', but an archaic term is 'Ooster', from 'Ostara').

Note that Ostara/Eostre is also linguistically related to "East", i.e. where the sun rises (dawn/rebirth). So if you want to link it to an ancient non-Germanic goddess, the obvious candidate is the Greek dawn goddess... Eos.
You do realize that the Mesopotamians were civilized long before the Germans were more than rando hunter-gatherers, right?

They inventes writing, cities, agriculture and BEER.

I really think that it is not out of the question that some bits and pieces of their religion/culture spread into the world.

Furthermore, Easter is very much about eggs, and the concept of a "world egg" is a thing all over the planet it seems.


Or maybe like the world egg both the German and Mesopotamian goddess had some common, Indo-European root.
 
Ironically, for an Empire so prolific at massacring Christians, the first Christian they executed wasn’t entirely Rome’s fault. Governor Pilate was effectively pushed into ordering the execution and he all but threw his hands up in exasperation by the end.

That aside, whilst many Christians were quite happy to martyr themselves, I think Jesus might have oddly disapproved of it. “God knows your faith, don’t throw your lives away. I sorted all that out” sort of thing.

Submit if you must, resist if you can; he came with a sword after all.

suicide by martyrium actually is a heresy that the church has had to deal with at different points in history.
 

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