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How long will modern day Earth last against the Blood Angels chapter?

Tyzuris

Primarch to your glory& the glory of him on Earth!
Basically assume that Blood Angels manage to mobilize one battle barge, two strike cruisers and five rapid strike vessels and put their entire Chapter onboard.

How long will our world last against Dante's wrath till all governments have capitulated?
 

The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
If they're willing to use their Ortillery, we're boned. We're pretty much boned anyway, but we might get to kill some 1st.

Maybe 6 months to a year before people truly accept that we're boned.
 

Chiron

Well-known member
Basically assume that Blood Angels manage to mobilize one battle barge, two strike cruisers and five rapid strike vessels and put their entire Chapter onboard.

How long will our world last against Dante's wrath till all governments have capitulated?

People like me immediately declare for the God Emperor and rise up in arms against the Government. Putting aside the fact they are friendly neighborhood space vampires, they would be far better governors than our current crop of leaders.
 

The Original Sixth

Well-known member
Founder
Basically assume that Blood Angels manage to mobilize one battle barge, two strike cruisers and five rapid strike vessels and put their entire Chapter onboard.

How long will our world last against Dante's wrath till all governments have capitulated?

Centuries? Forever?

The problem is that the Blood Angels do not have the resources necessary to take an entire planet like Earth. There's what, a thousand Space Marines to a chapter? You ever play a 40k game? Their power armor won't make up for the fact that the major Earth powers could blow the shit out of them with artillery and missiles. Or the Chinese, who could literally drown them in soldiers.

Having a Battle Barge won't really change the math either. They're powerful, but seeing as Space Marines rarely just vaporize the large amounts of enemies that gather in huge WWI style armies for zerg rushes, I don't think you're going to have a lot of pin-point strikes to remove strategic threats. And certainly the Blood Angels can't justify genocide for merely fighting back.

The best that the Blood Angels could do is become a regional hegemon. Specifically, they could target Iran for conquest. That's suitable for the Blood Angels. Space Marines are very skilled in almost every form of combat, so fighting in the mountains is not going to be a big deal. Nor are they going to be as bothered with most longarms that the Iranians will posses. There is still the issue of artillery, jets, tanks, and rocket launchers--but these are mitigated by the Blood Angel's own hardware, as well as the somewhat limited ground strikes we can expect from their ships.

The Blood Angels might also have an advantage of religious conversion, simply by assimilating and assimilating into Islamic belief systems. By securing themselves within Iran, they don't present themselves as a major threat to the USA (who will feel more threatened by the orbital ships than the loss of Iran), who will be rapidly adjusting for a space conflict and defending the homeland. Allowing powers like the US, Russia, and China time to focus on nuclear missile defenses is a win-win.

By taking Iran however, the Blood Angels could upgrade Iranian technology well beyond the levels of its peers. The Blood Angels would be able to push outwards, probably expanding into most of the former Ottoman Empire territory. The downside is that in the time that it will take for the Blood Angels to conquer Iran it will take for the major powers to start stealing 40k tech or otherwise addressing any weakness they might find within Imperium technology. By the time the Blood Angels become a great power in the former Ottoman space (which could take decades), the major players of the planet will probably have caught up enough to dissuade the Blood Angels with enough firepower.

That also assumes that the Blood Angels don't regress, which is possible. Especially if the Earth nations manage to launch an alpha-strike on their battle fleet.
 

The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
@The Original Sixth

I think you are severely underestimating the planning of the Blood Angels.

Inside the first 24 hours of their arrival you're going to see multiple decapitation strikes against EVERY major power in the world. There's no wish for captives, no demand for surrender. Just teleportation into C&C centers with Terminators. Everything in there dies, and they teleport back out.

Every satellite in orbit gets destroyed unless the BA see a reason to keep it. There goes GPS. Land lines get cut and infrastructure is destroyed wholesale. Powerplants and dams are wrecked. The BA don't care if we fall back to Wild West tech and survival.

ANY concentration of troops gets ortilleried. It's a tried-and-true tactic that doesn't get written about enough simply b/c it's usually the enemy that controls the heights when Space Marines get sent in. That, and it's just not as much fun to read about ork hordes getting destroyed by orbital fire.
 

The Original Sixth

Well-known member
Founder
@The Original Sixth

I think you are severely underestimating the planning of the Blood Angels.

It has nothing to do with planning. The Blood Angels aren't stupid. They lack numbers.

Inside the first 24 hours of their arrival you're going to see multiple decapitation strikes against EVERY major power in the world.

And how are the Blood Angels going to know which cities to target? How does one tell the difference between DC, NYC, or Chicago? You'd also be destroying the civil centers of all these nations, which means there can be no formal surrender. That won't make the Blood Raven's job any easier.

There's no wish for captives, no demand for surrender. Just teleportation into C&C centers with Terminators. Everything in there dies, and they teleport back out.

While terminators can and do deploy via transporters, they more often deploy via land raiders. That aside, you're not going to be able to take out the entire government of every nation with this strategy. Because once you do it the first few times, everyone else is simply going to work remotely. Unless the Blood Angels plan on simply glassing entire cities, they're not going to just decapitate entire nation leadership.

And really, I hope those terminators enjoy bathing in napalm. Because that's exactly how they're going to die. Until someone just uses Javelin missiles.

Every satellite in orbit gets destroyed unless the BA see a reason to keep it. There goes GPS.

Out of curiosity, do you have any instances of the Blood Angels...or any Space Marine company taking out their enemy's satellite network? That said, I don't think this is going to be the game changer you think it is. It's certainly going to be a punch to the gut, but it's not going to be the end of modern military power. It certainly not going to allow the Blood Angels to run roughshod over everyone.

Land lines get cut and infrastructure is destroyed wholesale.

When have the Blood Angels ever done that?

Powerplants and dams are wrecked. The BA don't care if we fall back to Wild West tech and survival.

They actually would. Plunging the entire planet into chaos and discord would wreck the economic and industrial value of the entire planet. Sort of hard to tithe when civilization collapses.

ANY concentration of troops gets ortilleried. It's a tried-and-true tactic that doesn't get written about enough simply b/c it's usually the enemy that controls the heights when Space Marines get sent in.

We both know that's bullshit. I'm no fine connoisseur of Space Marine ground battles, but I've seen enough to know that this is pretty much the exact opposite of what Space Marines do. In every portrayal we've seen, the Space Marines at BEST engage in early modern tactics or outright industrial era warfare.

That, and it's just not as much fun to read about ork hordes getting destroyed by orbital fire.

Or maybe because turning entire regions into a smoldering cinder is not economically viable.


The more likely scenario? The Blood Angels target one of the major powers and immediately send in troops. Maybe a few key orbital strikes against a few military bases they can identify within orbit. And then they're going to launch a ground assault. And after what I expect is a month or two of strong success, I expect the Blood Angels are going to get sodomized by the NATO/Chinese/Russian Air Force.
 

The Original Sixth

Well-known member
Founder
The Internet? As in, it's all there, and they out tech us by an insane margin.

And exactly how are they going to connect to the internet?

EDIT

Specifically, most internet connection does not come from satellites. They come from laid cables in the ground or along the ocean floor. It'd be relatively easy for every nation on Earth to encrypt the system or simply shut them down.
 
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Simonbob

Well-known member
And exactly how are they going to connect to the internet?
9 foot tall guy in power armor turns up at a computer store, buys one of each, pays in gold. Techpriest freaks out at how primitive it is.


:p


More seriously, even if their Techpriests can't bullshit it, they've got human folks as part of their people. They just need to send somebody into a 3rd world hellhole, and they're mostly visiable from orbit at night, grab them to start asking questions.
 

The Original Sixth

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Founder
9 foot tall guy in power armor turns up at a computer store, buys one of each, pays in gold. Techpriest freaks out at how primitive it is.


:p


More seriously, even if their Techpriests can't bullshit it, they've got human folks as part of their people. They just need to send somebody into a 3rd world hellhole, and they're mostly visiable from orbit at night, grab them to start asking questions.

I don't expect it will be hard for the tech priests to figure out how a modern computer works. It will be more difficult for them to figure out perhaps how computer networks work and it will be some time before they can even hope to engage in cyber warfare, but the actual hardware itself is pretty straightforward for them. Software shouldn't be too hard either.

The problem I see is that this isn't how the Blood Angels act. The Blood Angels aren't going to sit in oribt while some serf goes down to barter with someone in Sudan or South Africa--and hopes it goes well. They're going to pick a target and assault it.

The key is figuring out the right target. And for that, the Blood Angels are limited by numbers, resources, and logistics. They simply cannot safely tackle any modern great power. Their best bet is a middle or minor power, preferably one with a large population, a reasonably educated (and civilized) population, and one that is easily defended with as little troops as possible.

As far as Earth is concerned, that is Iran. Relatively advanced, strong warrior/military culture, a strong cultural identity that can be converted, similar cultural matrixes, and surrounded by mountains (not to mention much weaker powers).

This all stems from the problem that Space Marines are not really equipped properly to take on this sort of war. A proper invasion force put together by the Imperial Guard/Navy would actually have a far higher chance of success. The Astartes are high cost assets that are best used against highly resistant targets. The Imperial Guard are low cost assets that can be deployed in large numbers.
 
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Simonbob

Well-known member
It really depends on the level of power of the Spacemarines.

Are they going to laugh off anti-tank weapons? Are they going to die to mere machineguns? Are they beyond human limits in terms of speed?

Note, there are Tech Marines. There's also going to be a number of techpriests in ship engineering.

And they aren't stupid. Yes, they're going to look, to work out where to hit, they're going to find out what's what. Then, they'll plan on that basis.
 

The Original Sixth

Well-known member
Founder
It really depends on the level of power of the Spacemarines.

Are they going to laugh off anti-tank weapons? Are they going to die to mere machineguns? Are they beyond human limits in terms of speed?

We have a pretty accurate idea of what a Space Marine can and cannot do. They are not going to die to small arms fire, given the thickness of their armor and the sort of durability they have. They cannot survive anti-tank weapons. They die to bolter rounds, which probably wouldn't do much to an Abrams Tank without concentrated fire from at least one or more bolter rifles. A javelin should be more than enough to kill a Space Marine.

As far as speed, Space Marines are either portrayed as slow, monolithic in speed (such as the short movie they did with those Ultra Marines) or they're portrayed as about just as fast or faster. Mind you, that is in full armor. Out of armor, they are always portrayed as faster. Much faster. In any case, reaction speed and bulk are different things. Space Marines are pretty large targets on the battlefield. Expect javelins to work pretty damn well.

Flamethrowers will also work, simply because the napalm will get through the cracks of most Space Marine armor. I expect terminator armor is more difficult and hence more resistant, but I think you need something on the level of a dreadnought before napalm simply won't work at all.

Note, there are Tech Marines. There's also going to be a number of techpriests in ship engineering.

Yes, and they're all generally conservatives. In fact, they're all rabid conservatives. They're not going to immediately just start employing new technologies and strategies. There's going to be prayer, discussion, prayer, and probably a minor purge or two before they agree on how to move forward. And then some more prayer.

I'm not arguing that the tech priests are going to be useless. Indeed, if there is any existing tech that they know of which might increase the odds of winning, they'll quickly employ it. And of course, they'll employ new technology more quickly than the Space Marines. Of course, that also means the Space Marines are going to be even slower in adopting these ideas.

And again, not really big into 40k, but I don't think the Blood Angels are the sort of chapter that like to experiment with new stuff.

And they aren't stupid. Yes, they're going to look, to work out where to hit, they're going to find out what's what. Then, they'll plan on that basis.

Yes, but they're going to do so within a 40k frame of mind; which is rather narrow and direct. They're going to be able to identify military sites, city clusters that represent economic centers, agricultural areas that feed into those centers, data centers, flow of data, and trade lanes. They're also going to understand how the local planet's geography can be advantageous and disadvantageous. For example, landing their military forces in the middle of Russia is a no-no. Or engaging in a land war with China or India. Or recognizing the strong defensive value of Iran or Brazil or Taiwan.

That does not mean they're going to immediately locate enemy capitals, effortlessly hack into foreign communication systems, and perform assassination strikes on world leaders.

The most likely scenario, assuming Dante has any brains--is that Dante will realize he does not have the numbers and logistics nor the resources to conquer an entire planet such as this. Since he cannot count on reinforcements, he must make do with what he has. What he has is a full chapter of Space Marines, about a thousand of such warriors and their support staff. He cannot conquer billions with a thousand men. It's simply impossible. Even if they were all Gray Knights, he could not accomplish such a task.

Knowing that his power is at its peak at the beginning of the war, Dante will need to pick a target that is relatively isolated. There are plenty of African targets he can choose. They're low-tech, generally with young or corrupt institutions that will crumble. And those that aren't are generally small or not so advanced as to present a major threat to his own force.

The problem is that you just don't want something remote, you want something that is remote and valuable. Africa has LOTS of valuable resources the Space Marines will need, but it also so remote that it is difficult to integrate the conquered territory. He'd also be dealing with various ethnic groups and languages, which will make it harder to bring all these groups under one banner. There is also very little leverage that these African targets can place on the outside world. Material resources yes, but that's about it.

A better target is Iran. Iran is surrounded by mountains and has many valleys. That makes it difficult for any power to get their troops in. The Space Marines can deploy from orbit via drop pods, so a portion of the difficulty in transport is already solved. Their forces are also highly mobile, allowing them to move heavier equipment in without concern.

Conquering a country like Iran is next to impossible, but the Space Marines are well equipped. All of their soldiers are veterans of countless battles, including mountain fighting. They should be able to adapt very quickly. They'll also have a greater morale than the local military due to their deep religious convictions and decades of social connection to themselves and the Blood Angels chapter itself. Especially if the Blood Angels happen to land in ethnic minority areas--ie, non-Persians. Who will be less likely to resist the Blood Angels once the territory is taken.

There are other considerations as well. Iran has a strong military, but it is horribly outdated and many of their fighters are running on old spare parts, third rate domestic spare parts, or are pretty much toast. The Blood Angels can grind their military hardware into the dirt. It won't be a complete cakewalk, the Iranians have some Russian hardware too, especially for air defense, but these can be overwhelmed and taken. Especially with Terminator deep strikes. It's well within their abilities.

During the conquest, Dante will have to convert the local population. He can do so through the strong religious ties that connect them. 40k rips a great deal on the whole 'savior' process and they might be able to present themselves as sort of angelic warriors sent by God to finally wipe the heretics off the face of the Earth. The educate class will resist that, but the vast majority of the population will take one look at a Space Marine and a second look at the decimated Iranian military and make obvious calculations about survival and piety.

And all things considered, Dante will probably be pretty quick to use religious synchronicity to bridge the gap between the Space Marines and the local Muslims.

From there, Dante will eventually overwhelm the Persian ethnic group. As the Persian elites will eventually be more concerned with keeping their positions and their skin, they'll surrender and meet Dante's terms. That's where the real synergy will work. Iranian institutions are not...well, they're not the most sophisticated, but they're strong and have a rich history. Once you plug that into the Blood Angel's hierarchy, converting Iran from a third-rate backwater power that dreams of empire to a modern great power can happen within 10-30 years. We'd probably be looking at WTO era China level growth that we've seen over the past few decades.

In addition, Dante will obtain a new weapon that will allow him to dominate the Middle East. Specifically that of Islamic extremists. Iran controls a vast network. They will be the most exposed element of his whole apparatus though; the local powers will want to keep Dante in Iran, not allow him to extend outside. Still, it's hard to remove terrorists, so I expect Iran will retain a great deal of terrorists cells. However, expect the Saudi to foster terrorism within Iran. Although I expect that Dante will meet that with the typical holy purging common in 40k.

I expect that Dante will use terrorist cells in Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, Syria, and Lebanon to keep Western powers in check. Meanwhile, I also expect that he'll aggressively push into Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, Armenia, and Azerbaijan. That will piss off the Russians to the north, but Dante will by that time realize that the Russians don't have the strength to repel them. The Chinese will not be pleased about Iraq, but they don't have the projection power to really do anything about it. Eventually, I expect that Dante will push into Mesopotamia and spread throughout the Middle East.

His greatest foe will be Turkey, but so long as he moves from south to north and east to west, it will delay Turkey's reaction. And once Dante has a working industrial base and a large population to draw upon, he'll be able to supply his army with the numbers and vehicles they need to actually conquer, not to mention the more domestic tools of state via Iran's intellectual class.

But I expect that this will probably take about 15-40 years, some of which will run concurrent with their buildup of Iran as a modern power. The drawback for this, while it will bring Dante success (at least a measure of success, according to the OP's terms) is that it will allow Western powers, who are very liberal, open minded, creative, and highly motivated--to catch up technologically. As always in war and conflict, soldiers will die, weapons will be lost, and spies are plentiful. The Western powers will close the gap--and they'll have decades to do so. Probably half a century, in fact.

That doesn't mean that Western powers can or need to overtake (or even catch) Imperium technology--they simply need to become strong enough that any assault on so many enemies will simply fail, even for an Iran converted into an Imperial colony. And once that slowdown happens, then the whole endeavor runs out of steam. Dante can't overwhelm his enemies with numbers and in the long term, the most he can hope for is to keep up or remain competitive with Western tech, because conservative groups such as the Imperium do not make large leaps and bounds in technology--liberal groups do that. Because it's a function of creativity, which Imperium cults and society discourages, because it's viewed as dangerous.

So Dante's Iran will become a great power, but it does not have the resources to conquer the planet. And the time that Dante needs to build up that sort of strength will hurt him in the long term. All he can really do is establish a strong foothold upon the planet and hope against hope that he'll receive Imperium reinforcements some day.
 

Battlegrinder

Someday we will win, no matter what it takes.
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Obozny
The core issue is that the blood angels cannot win a conventional war, and cannot force a surrender simply with surgical strikes, and those strikes will start being one way trips real quick.

The only force the Angels have that can get in, hit a target, and get out before they're swarmed by conventional forces are terminators. Regular marines can get down to the surface via drop pods and jump packs, they cannot get back to the ship with them, they'll need to be picked up with thunderhawks. Thunderhawks will be immune to conventional air to air missiles.....at first, but it will not take long to develop something that can hit them hard enough to bring them down, and it's unlikely the Angels will be able to wipe out earth's air forces before that happens, or before a sufficiently lethal SAM is developed. Once cut off from escape, the Angels ground troops will eventually be overrun, and while they can go to ground and fight as guerilla forces, a few hundred guerillas cannot conquer the world.

That leaves terminators, and while they can hit targets, there's not a lot of them. These are Blood Angels, not Dark Angels, they have a conventional first company and they don't have enough suits to equip the entire company. Per the recent codex "Most" of the ultramarine first company are not in terminator armor, the Angels should be similar. Call it 5 squads, 50 guys in total. 50 guys cannot cripple the world, no matter how tough they are and how much they manage to blow up or burn down. And the earth's government only need to get lucky a few times. A few lucky bombing runs, a few key targets rigged with explosive, hell if needed a few bombers circling around, loaded with nuclear tipped cruise missiles and waiting for a target, and the terminators are gone.

Past that point, the Angeks lose. Sure, they can bombard the Earth into rubble, but that's not their mission, thier mission is to conquer it, and they need boots on the ground to actually enforce thier rule.
 
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Chiron

Well-known member
Centuries? Forever?

The problem is that the Blood Angels do not have the resources necessary to take an entire planet like Earth. There's what, a thousand Space Marines to a chapter? You ever play a 40k game? Their power armor won't make up for the fact that the major Earth powers could blow the shit out of them with artillery and missiles. Or the Chinese, who could literally drown them in soldiers.

More like 1600 Marines to a chapter once you factor in all the "non-combat" Marines who perform other roles than bolter bros plus the Warp resulting in companies being lost for centuries and then showing back up after having been stricken from the rolls.

Also there are the Serfs who have access to shit that puts all our shit to shame.

Also Game Mechanics are not canon, the lore is.

Outside of nukes and heavy artillery, the world can't do shit to Marines unless really lucky. Dante will quickly remove nukes from the equation and the Space Marines have far superior ECM/ECCM gear than we got, so they can pretty much shut down the planetary grid as well. They also vastly outmatch us in Cyberwarfare and have some pretty nasty cyber viruses to unleash. There is also the Librarius which we have no answer to.

Given lore wise a single Space Marine Company can be expected to capture a civilized world without much difficultly, an entire Chapter is overkill. They simply have far too superior technology and will find plenty of recruits.

As is usual in these types of threads, people lack proper analytical skills and don't realize what is actually being shown in the 40K lore in which the MBTs used by the Guard have the penetrating power of a 16inch gun and the explosive power as well.

Connor Macleod of both SB.com and SD.net has entire threads dedicated to the analysis of 40K and they are must reads.

Remember, the Space Marines were expected to take on races with more advanced technology than mankind and peer competitors from DAOT remnants of Humanity. To accomplish this, they had the best technology and weapons given to them outside the Custodes and trained to be well rounded soldiers who could be scouts one moment, line soldiers another, a pilot on another occasion, an Administrator, or any other role they might be called upon to do and often without much information till they eat a brain or two.

And the battlefields they were expected to fight in could be quite hellish. Given energy shields are a thing along with planet killing weaponry in 40K, warfare favors the defensive and Space Marines have to be able to survive nuclear battlefields, biological battlefields, psychic battlefields, and other extreme conditions.

This in turn meant they had weapons that had to be able to penetrate body armor and explode to kill their targets. And given the more advance metallurgy of 40K, bolter rounds can penetrate tank armor lore wise under certain conditions. This in turn means no current AFVs we have can withstand a standard bolter round.

Their first target would be Jerusalem if anything to demonstrate the power of the Emperor. They remove it off the face of the Earth and use pinpoint decapitation strikes to take out Government Leaders and ortillery strikes to remove major military bases. We aren't a Forgeworld or have vital resources that need to be intact.

Dante may be good, but he is not nice and has ordered entire planets destroyed. Never forget he is an Astarte and will not hesitate to eliminate a threat to the Emperor by any means necessary.

And no our aircraft are no match for Space Marine fighter craft. Not that we would ever get to use them much to begin with between all the jamming, cyber warfare, ortillery, and shoot downs.

The surrenders will start coming in as its clear the Earth has no real means of stopping the Space Marine Assaults. Dante can then begin using serfs and a handful of Marines to train co-opted collaborators to run the show while he figures things out further. More troublesome spots are simply purged.
 

Battlegrinder

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Obozny
Outside of nukes and heavy artillery, the world can't do shit to Marines unless really lucky. Dante will quickly remove nukes from the equation and the Space Marines have far superior ECM/ECCM gear than we got, so they can pretty much shut down the planetary grid as well. They also vastly outmatch us in Cyberwarfare and have some pretty nasty cyber viruses to unleash. There is also the Librarius which we have no answer to.

He'll remove nukes...how? Orbital strikes? How well he even find them all? Many are located in hardened silos or submarines deep under the sea, intentionally hidden from orbital recon, and nuclear ones are one thing that has a consistent track record of evading detection by 40k sensors, such as in the memorably incident during the great crusade when the Lion was almost assassinated by a nuclear weapon that was hidden on a shuttle aboard his own flagship.

And, presuming he can find them, can you prove that he actually kill them all? As I said, most nukes are in hardened silos or submarines beneath hundreds of meters of water, both of which are very hard to destroy directly, and in fact are designed to be very difficult to destroy directly. Certainly a 40k ship has the firepower to destroy them, however I question if it has the power to destroy them precisely.

ECM/ECCM is for jamming/counter jamming, it cannot just disable the electrical grid. Destroying the electrical grid would actually be very hard for marines, because it's so heavily decentralized and scattered, you'd have to hit a lot of places all at once to knock it down, and marines do not have the numbers to do that.

It is true that we do not have a direct counter the librarius. It is also not relevant, as many races or forces in 40k (tau, dark eldar, many guard regiments, and many space marine forces) will not have a psyker on hand or even any at all, and they'll nonetheless hold their own against the marines.

Given lore wise a single Space Marine Company can be expected to capture a civilized world without much difficultly, an entire Chapter is overkill. They simply have far too superior technology and will find plenty of recruits.

Warhammer lore is often inconsistent and nonsensical, merely because they can allegedly do something in the lore does not mean they can do it in reality. And speaking of that lore, I don't recall the last time I saw marines, loyalist or chaos, just outright conquer a world via force of arms.

As is usual in these types of threads, people lack proper analytical skills and don't realize what is actually being shown in the 40K lore in which the MBTs used by the Guard have the penetrating power of a 16inch gun and the explosive power as well.

By all means, please cite a single passage where a Leman Russ battle cannon shows comparable power to 16 inch gun.

The Orks put paid to any such notion of vastly improved 40k firepower, since their weaponry is cobbled together out of scraps and is able to compete. Yes, the Waagh field helps close that gap, but it only closes it from where the ork's performance should be, which is already within range of IoM stuff. It's not going to turn a 18th century black powder cannon into something on par with a Rheinmetall Rh-120, but it might make a 1980's era Rheinmetall Rh-120 on par with a modern one.

Connor Macleod of both SB.com and SD.net has entire threads dedicated to the analysis of 40K and they are must reads.

And I'm sure he's put forth a great deal of effort, but IMO he's wasting his time because trying to derive even ballpark figures for a setting as inconsistent as 40k is pointless. It was a core plot point in Fall Of Cadia that the pylons that disabled any-warp based power worked on the Sisters of Battle and Saint Celestina, because their "faith" powers were in truth a warp effect. It was also a core plot point in Parith Nexus that the Sister's powers not affect by a vastly more powerful anti-warp device, because the sisters did not draw upon the warp to wield thier supernatural power, but rather they were derived from Faith alone.

The SDN method works best on what it was originally used for, which was stuff like ST and SW. ST and SW were at the time series with a very small number of examinable incidents, created by the same VFX teams who used consistent methods, and produced within the same rough technological era so the overall technology used to produce them did not evolve overmuch between installments. But those methods do not work nearly as well outside that framework.

Remember, the Space Marines were expected to take on races with more advanced technology than mankind and peer competitors from DAOT remnants of Humanity.

So is the Death Korps of Kreig, are we to assume that a modern force would be helpless in the face of the Korp's grossly outdated WW1 era tactics?

This in turn meant they had weapons that had to be able to penetrate body armor and explode to kill their targets. And given the more advance metallurgy of 40K, bolter rounds can penetrate tank armor lore wise under certain conditions. This in turn means no current AFVs we have can withstand a standard bolter round.

I don't ever recall reading a passage in any 40k novel where even heavy bolters are effective anti-armor weapons, let alone standard ones. It's only on the tabletop where bolters stand even a slim chance of harming an armored vehicle. There's a reason that when engaging tanks and brefit of anti-tank weapons, the typical Astarte's tactic is to run toward the tank, board it, tear the hatches off and toss grenades into the interior, not to just flank it and shoot the rear armor with bolters.

It's actually very strange to argue that bolters can penetrate 40k tank armor, because they cannot even penetrate 40k personal armor reliably, let alone the much thicker, heavier plating employed by tanks. Space marines use special and rare kraken rounds or vengeance rounds to engage chaos space marines, specifically because conventional ammunition lacks the power to penetrate their armor.

Their first target would be Jerusalem if anything to demonstrate the power of the Emperor. They remove it off the face of the Earth and use pinpoint decapitation strikes to take out Government Leaders and ortillery strikes to remove major military bases. We aren't a Forgeworld or have vital resources that need to be intact.

Wiping out government leadership is bad, because that wipes out everyone that has the authority to actually order a surrender.

As for the suggested tactic of "bomb everything until they surrender", that's been tried repeatedly in warfare for the past century and change, and it has never once worked. Not once in the history of industrial warfare has a bombing campaign broken the will of a civilian population to continue resisting, nor has it forced any government or regime to surrender (aside from Japan, and that was a near-failure). I see no reason to assume it will suddenly get much better when space marines try it.

And no our aircraft are no match for Space Marine fighter craft. Not that we would ever get to use them much to begin with between all the jamming, cyber warfare, ortillery, and shoot downs.

As I said, we don't need to match them, we have far greater numbers. It's very unclear how many aircraft a marine chapter can actually call upon. The Dark Angels, who likely have far more aircraft than standard, have 2 "oversized" squads that are organized as pilots for the ravenwing, let's say they're double the size of a standard squad, so 40 guys and 40 planes. Let's than assume that's in addition to their non-ravenwing aircraft, and that for normal chapter each battle company has a single oversized squad as their pilots (these are very generous estimates, BTW). So, that's 100 interceptors and gunships, plus maybe 30 or 40 thunderhawks (the DA deployed 16 to Vraks along with deploying roughly half their chapter to the battle, so we're doubling that and accounting for the DA being relatively air-power heavy).

140 aircraft, no matter how powerful, will not win against the combined air power on earth of, at a very lazy guess, about 10k, give or take a thousand or so. Particularly not when most of those 140 are these things:

40K-20170910070817.jpg


That's a space marine stormhawk interceptor, the premier air-to-air combatant of the space marines. It has two guns, which will be useful in a dogfight but it's also quite venerable to gunfire itself, and it has but six missiles, six missiles this sqaudron is only firing now at sub-point blank range, which if you want to cite Connor's methods very strongly implies the Stormhawk lacks the capability to engage targets in BVR like modern weapons. I think we've got a very good chance indeed against it.

The surrenders will start coming in as its clear the Earth has no real means of stopping the Space Marine Assaults.

Sure we do, just wait til they land and then nuke'em. That won't be the immediate reaction of course, but once we realize just how few of them are (something greatly aided by the marine's love of individualized heraldry, letting us very quickly realize the same small number of guys keep showing up at engagement after engagement) it won't take long for someone to run the numbers on just how little collaterate damage it would cause to wipe them out.

And even in a conventional engagement, marines are good but hardly unstoppable. The Red Scorpions deployed a full company +supported assets to take one heavily defended position on Vraks, where they were opposed largely by humans, armed with autoguns, crew served weapons, and supporting artillery.

They started with a ten man assault squad, which deployed first in order to drop a homing beckon for the terminators, and the rest of the company in rhinos ready to move up and reinforce. The assault marines landed with total surprise in the middle of the night against an enemy that had no NVGs, no ability to call in supporting fire least it hit their own men, and with many of the heavy weapons pointed the wrong way.

By the time the main push reached the assault squad, 9 of them were dead, and the entire force took about 50% causalities just holding that one spot against determined resistance.
 
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Battlegrinder

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Obozny
Librarian telepaths scanning world leader and general minds from orbit before landing.

I'm not clear on if they can do that, or even if those people have that information. The US has almost 4000 nuclear warheads, I doubt anyone has the location of even most of them memorized.

And of course that excludes stuff like submarines, which are assigned to just patrol in a general region and IIRC do not report their exact position back to anyone.
 

Hlaalu Agent

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I'm not clear on if they can do that, or even if those people have that information. The US has almost 4000 nuclear warheads, I doubt anyone has the location of even most of them memorized.

And of course that excludes stuff like submarines, which are assigned to just patrol in a general region and IIRC do not report their exact position back to anyone.

You also forgot the fact that there are almost eight billion people on the planet, I think that this would work even more in your favour- since finding such minds would be like finding a needle in a haystack.
 

Battlegrinder

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You also forgot the fact that there are almost eight billion people on the planet, I think that this would work even more in your favour- since finding such minds would be like finding a needle in a haystack.

Not so much in that case, the marines can probably figure out who those people are easily enough, it's getting information from them in particular that's tricky.

And before someone suggests the brain eating thing, can you qualify how exactly that works? Because I've never read anything where they do that, and the codex description for what they learn is vague, it could be anything from "I have eaten this guy, and I now have a rough understanding of his life and a vague sense of how he went about his day" to "I have eaten this guy, and now feel as though I read an autistically detailed multi-volume autobiography" to "I have eaten this guy, and know know everything from what kind of crayon he liked to eat when he was five to which order he put his shoes on last Tuesday".
 

Chiron

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Basically assume that Blood Angels manage to mobilize one battle barge, two strike cruisers and five rapid strike vessels and put their entire Chapter onboard.

How long will our world last against Dante's wrath till all governments have capitulated?

Before we get further into the debate and nerd rages, can you clarify if this is pre-devastation of Baal Blood Angels or Post Devastation of Baal Blood Angels.

It has a major difference. Pre-DoB are your standard First Born with anywhere to 500 to 1,600 Marines, Post-DoB you have the Primaris and the Chapter is a lot larger with upwards of 5,000 Astartes. It just means whether there is a stomp or a complete anal circumference roll table in play from FATAL.

This also brings in Inceptors who would look like falling meteors on radar and would just be absolutely devastating to Military Forces. Then there are the Incursors and Vanguard Infiltrators. And then come the Repulsors which can be dropped from orbit.

Vanguard Eliminators would also be a pain, camo cloaks defeat even Tau thermal scans and fellow Astarte scans, and they can utilize Las Fusils per lore as long range sniper weapons. Then again the First Born Scouts also had camo cloaks as well and were used to wage guerrilla warfare and snipe targets of opportunity.
 

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