I get to conquer the Federation (SW and ST Crossover/SI)

Bassoe

Well-known member
“I notice that you leave out the economic side of things.” Tarkin continued. “Especially as from what I can tell based on various reports, the Federation appears to have adopted some kind of…communal, system, in place of a proper economy.”

“With all due respect, sir,” I began. “I’m not an economist. I do think the Empire will have to build a proper economy from scratch…”

Kriffing Communists…whether it’s in this life or the previous one…they always make trouble where there should be none…

“…but the details will have to be left to economic experts, perhaps with assistance from major, and previously-vetted, corporate interests.” I continued. “Though I suppose we could start by nationalizing key industries, such as metallurgy, shipbuilding, the public utilities, the aerospace industries, and armaments production, and then form new corporations, with shares split between the regional governments and private shareholders. I…I might be able to come up with some more ideas, but…again, with all due respect, sir, I’m a soldier, not an economist. I never really thought much about this, beyond privately cursing the Federation for not having a proper economy in the first place.”
I have no idea what sort of an economic system the Federation truly has. Like, are there markets in real estate? Is ownership of more than one house allowed? Is renting real estate allowed? Is buying and selling land allowed? Is private trade allowed? If land ownership exist, is there a land value tax regime? No idea.

I'm not sure how many economic differences betwee the Empire and the Federation are social, and how many are technological in nature.

It's possible that with the Federation production techniques market prices of some things tend to 0.

This is in fact observable even at our level, if we compare with medieval times. Our prices of clothes, glass and metals are absurdly low. Oh, if you buy new clothes or books that can be still costly, but a 15 year old car, still full of high-quality steel even if with some rust, costs maybe 2000$. The much higher price of the new car is not because of steel or glass! While new books cost 15$, used books cost 1$, and that is the case only because selling used books is WORK - otherwise many would be free, as many old books and papers are thrown away like trash. Likewise clothes. Likewise empty glass bottles, something that would be worth gold at medieval tech level. A medieval person accustomed to high price of any usable piece of cloth, or glass, or steel - would be amazed.

"Transportation and storage" costs is why many among our early XXI century charities drown in enormous amounts of usable but often useless used clothes, that were given to the charity for free, but then are costly if we want to give these to the poor (storage space, transport to destination, sorting, cleaning, etc) instead of throwing these at the landfill (landfill disposal of trash also generate cost: land, transportation).

Now, in the Federation there are replicators. What such a technology change technologically in prices of goods, regardless of whether system is market-based or not?

It seems to reduce costs of new items to costs of used items, and to reduce main obstacle to 0 prices of many used items, transportation and distribution costs? Humph.

The most importantly, it seems to also lower prices of food to 0. Well, strictly speaking to cost of electricity used and cost of labor needed to operate the replicator, but these costs looks comparable to a cost of picking up an empty glass bottle that is nearby, not 0 but close to 0 even if you clean the bottle afterwards.
(Well, it could be very costly if you would need to pick up, clean and move somewhere 1000 bottles; but if you need only one and one lies nearby, or if you have a replicator in your home...)
As I see it, the Federation economy works by controlling access to replicators. Every Federation citizen is entitled to replicate things from a public database for free. The Federation operates this system at a loss since it gives them control of society, said database lacks templates for making replicators, manifestos of anti-Federation ideologies or particularly effective weaponry, automatically records people's download history for specific forbidden items and can be remotely cut off.

While the Empire has essentially won the war, whether they'll lose the peace is mostly dependent upon how they treat this system.
  • Turn it off, you antagonize every single otherwise-apolitical Federation NEET* into a rebel against the Empire.
  • Remove the restrictions, occupying Federation territory by any means short of genocide via orbital bombardment becomes impossible, every single rebel will have untraceable ghost phasers and entirely self-sustaining hidden militia compounds from jailbroken replicators so even a tiny rebel cell of true believers can become practically impossible to root out. At a minimum. Worst case scenario, von neumann killbot apocalypse. And in any case, not even the Federation higher-ups wanted this, they didn't derestrict all replicator templates as soon as they lost earth to create the ultimate unwinnable guerrilla war** because they knew if they did, they'd never be able to reassert control even if they somehow drove off the Imperials.
  • Leave it mostly the same and propagate it back to their own galaxy. Everyone dependent upon the system is someone who will never rebel against it and resist any attempt at destroying it out of self interest.
*

**
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LTR

Don't Look Back In Anger
Administrator
Staff Member
Founder
First off I must apologize to @Jaenera Targaryen I posted a Link to this Story on The Sietch Twitter feed (140 followers and... stalling!) and look at the HUGE celebrity that took notice of this Saga!





Yes that's right, the DarkStar himself. I noticed the website but I didn't make the connection until now. It's all good fun though I'm sure.



If your unfamiliar with these websites, ask your (35-45 year old) Grandparents.

Gotta admit, there's something about Mary... :sneaky:
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Hold on.
Is that...
Wow.
Funnily enough SD.net is how I found SB.
But I am not surprised you managed to get the attention of someone who is renowned on SD.net.
Have a fic where SW does better then trek and you will get someone like that
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
First off I must apologize to @Jaenera Targaryen I posted a Link to this Story on The Sietch Twitter feed (140 followers and... stalling!) and look at the HUGE celebrity that took notice of this Saga!





Yes that's right, the DarkStar himself. I noticed the website but I didn't make the connection until now. It's all good fun though I'm sure.



If your unfamiliar with these websites, ask your (35-45 year old) Grandparents.

Gotta admit, there's something about Mary... :sneaky:

Lol, this guy is still alive!

Also, I am pretty sure that his site had a ton of whanky stompfics that favored Trek once upon a time, so this is the pot calling the kettle black. :cool:

BTW @LTR you should seriously consider expanding the social media presence to places that actually like free speech, like MINDS and Gab and maybe MeWe.
 

Midnighter13

Well-known member
I reread this a few days ago, and have been thinking about it ever since, specifically the issue of the work camps on Earth. So, in this version of the Federation, Section 31 has essentially been ruling the place from the shadows the entire time. Fine. A secret cryogenic prison on Pluto? Makes total sense given the ideology and capabilities they have shown in the story thus far. However, work/reeducation camps that exist in the open on Earth? That's something entirely different.

Its one thing for the occasional political official to go missing or 'die' due to accidents or tragedies. But to have camps like that operating on Earth, you would need far more than Section 31 has shown. First, you would need an entire completely hidden secret police force that would investigate and kidnap lesser political criminals (without alerting the 'official' law enforcement). Then, once they have gone missing, this secret police force would have to prevent any official investigation into the disappearance of these people. And unlike a single admiral or foreign ambassador, local police will start noticing patterns of disappearances over time. Even if the police can be warned off with plants, bribes, orders from above, etc, there will be private investigators hired by relatives of the vanished, reporters, government investigators, tax auditors, etc, who will all look into at least some of these disappearances at some point. Section 31 won't be able to stop all those people without either absurd numbers (as in more members of Section 31 than the Federation has actual officials level of numbers), or some sort of highly effective memory wiping/rewriting tech. And if they had the later, they wouldn't need such camps in the first place as they could just rewired dissident's brains directly.

Then, once you get the secret prisoners to the camps, you have another problem. Who is running the camps? Is it the secret police again? Because that will at least double the manpower needed just for Earth, assuming Section 31 isn't running these schemes on other Federation worlds too. So now we are not talking about a secret conspiracy hidden within the ranks of the Federation, we are talking about an entire secret society capable of supporting a massive police presence, multiple work camps, entire fleets, shipyards, off-planet prisons, special operations teams, spies and saboteurs across the Federation, etc. And most importantly, somehow this massive society has the ability to keep all these millions of Section 31 people secret from the official government, even as they are disappearing millions of Federation citizens into reeducation camps.

I mean, these camps are on Earth in the open. Are you telling me that in the three hundred plus years they've been operating, not one plane, space ship, or civilian satellite with a camera has overflown them? Or that Section 31 has been able to cover up every single sighting of such camps? Worse, in three hundred plus years not one person has escaped from the camps? No one has tracked a loved one down to the camps and escaped with pictures?

Then, since these are reeducation camps, at some point the 'successful' prisoners have to be reintegrated into Federation society. How? Millions of people going missing is all but impossible to conceal on its own, but some fraction (probably tens of thousands at least) showing back up without any explanation with a completely different personality? How in the name of sanity do you keep that quiet? Someone is going to be looking for at least one of the returned, and will want an explanation of how they vanished, what happened to them, and why they came back different.

Worse, how do they keep all the brainwashed released prisoners from telling their stories at some point during the rest of their lives? Again, these camps have operated for (probably) centuries, and no one has successfully broken their silence and told someone 'Oh yeah, I survived a reeducation camp that starved and tortured me for years to make me a good Federation citizen.' Not one trusted family member, investigative reporter, or detective ever got a single one of these people to reveal what happened to them?

Say what you want about the Federation, but whether due to propaganda, education, or sincere beliefs, most of the people of Earth would believe in the ideals of the Federation. In order for a camp system like that to function, there couldn't even be rumors of such camps without either massive media investigations, or worse, official government investigations instigated by law enforcement, legislatures, Starfleet intelligence, or the executives. This entire thing would have to be a complete secret with not a single credible leak across centuries for this to work. Because given the reactions of Piccard and the crew, even the rumors would horrify the common Federation citizens to the point where the secret would inevitably be blown open.

If Section 31 had the power to overrule the legitimate Federation government to the extent that they could prevent any leaks or discredit those that occurred, they would be so large that they would be the Federation government, at which point none of the people in power would actually believe in the ideals of the Federation, and the entire thing would collapse as Section 31 simply took power in the open.

So, to make a long story short, I think the existence of these camps, and the problems they put in the story really weaken the overall theme. Up until now Section 31 has been the small but elite secret rulers of the Federation behind the scenes. But such an organization simply wouldn't have the numbers, resources, or control nessesary to run such camps (especially for any length of time). That means either Section 31 are not a shadowy conspiracy, but rather a majority of the public government, or they have capabilities that would make many of their crimes unnecessary and inefficient.
 
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ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
As for the Federation…representative democracy, liberty, equality before the law…the ideals are basically those of the Western world. But how the Federation has gone about it…well.

Yeah. The Federation is essentially a utopian extension of Western ideals with a few largely tacit touches of socialism, mostly the "no money" thing which was never really spelled out in enough detail to make sense. And as deconstructed in this fic, it's actually a pseudo-utopian tyranny "for the greater good".

Whereas the Galactic Empire is an openly practiced tyranny which ultimately exists purely for the self-aggrandizement of Darth Sidious. Picard isn't wrong to point out that the Empire aren't *really* morally superior overall, despite having exposed pretty much *all* of the Federation's dirty laundry. Especially since the Empire's own pile of dirty laundry is canonically vast, and the "law and order" aspect of the Empire has always been secondary to the whims of everyone powerful enough to do so.
 
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The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
Whereas the Galactic Empire is an openly practiced tyranny which ultimately exists purely for the self-aggrandizement of Darth Sidious. Picard isn't wrong to point out that the Empire aren't *really* morally superior overall, despite having exposed pretty much *all* of the Federation's dirty laundry. Especially since the Empire's own pile of dirty laundry is canonically vast, and the "law and order" aspect of the Empire has always been secondary to the whims of everyone powerful enough to do so.
Shhhh.... ;)

That part will be fun to explore later on. And I'm wondering if the Picards, Rikers, and others will be able to move the Empire away from that sense of 'whim'...possibly with the actions our favorite Dragon Lady.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Shhhh.... ;)

That part will be fun to explore later on. And I'm wondering if the Picards, Rikers, and others will be able to move the Empire away from that sense of 'whim'...possibly with the actions our favorite Dragon Lady.

My impression has always been that how tyrannically the Empire behaves in any given sector is hugely dependent on the local leadership. The Rebellion is strongest in the Outer Rim not *only* because that's where the Empire tends to be the most heavy-handed (in places), but also because the Outer Rim was historically pretty Wild West lawless, so there's a lot of rebellion even in places with good Imperial leadership who are focused on bona fide law and order, because there's a lot of established gangs and syndicates and such that very much do not want any sort of law and order.

The Rebel Alliance, conversely, is very much an alliance of circumstance that's split between the broad categories of genuine idealists (example: Leia), those who only oppose the Empire because *they* aren't the ones in power (example: Borsk Fey'ala, arguably Mon Mothma), victims of Imperial atrocities who want some combination of justice and/or revenge, and straight up criminal scum who want to tear down law and order.

The SI character here seems to mostly be on the law and order side of things, but she's also...y'know, leading a straight up unprovoked war of conquest that has slaughtered millions of innocents.
 
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ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Say what you want about the Federation, but whether due to propaganda, education, or sincere beliefs, most of the people of Earth would believe in the ideals of the Federation. In order for a camp system like that to function, there couldn't even be rumors of such camps without either massive media investigations, or worse, official government investigations instigated by law enforcement, legislatures, Starfleet intelligence, or the executives. This entire thing would have to be a complete secret with not a single credible leak across centuries for this to work. Because given the reactions of Piccard and the crew, even the rumors would horrify the common Federation citizens to the point where the secret would inevitably be blown open.

While this is a good point, it's worth pointing out that the Federation openly sold out entire member worlds by giving them to the Cardassian Union in exchange for "peace in our time", and this apparently went down with little to no controversy outside of the Federation citizens so betrayed. The Federation outright knew that the Cardassians were negotiating in bad faith and had no intention of honoring the treaty, and they did it anyway.
 

nemo1986

Well-known member
While this is a good point, it's worth pointing out that the Federation openly sold out entire member worlds by giving them to the Cardassian Union in exchange for "peace in our time", and this apparently went down with little to no controversy outside of the Federation citizens so betrayed. The Federation outright knew that the Cardassians were negotiating in bad faith and had no intention of honoring the treaty, and they did it anyway.
Technically, they did not. The worlds they ceded were colony worlds that weren't heavily settled. Their populations numbered in the low millions and the Federation tried to offer full relocation on the Federation's expense for Fed civilians. Beta canon, per the Star Trek RPG, has it that the Borg incursion panicked the Council so they decided to go to the table to end it so they could deal with more important matters
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
I see it as more like the frontier US deciding to agree to a border with the Comanche nation that requires moving a couple of farms and ranches because they're about to be invaded by the British Empire for no apparent reason and need all their army on the east coast. The US agrees to pay the farmers for the move and deed them federal lands of equal value.

Then some farmers demand to stay on their farms instead of leaving and insisting they'd become Comanches, cue a surprised Pikachu face when the Comanches shot at them for ruining their hunting grounds. Afterwards, the farmers decide they want to burn down the White House for abandoning them to the Comanches.
 

nemo1986

Well-known member
That's the equivalent of the United States government deciding to just . . . cede Arizona back to Mexico, declaring all of its residents to now be stateless persons but "generously" offering them to be resettled as refugees.
It's more the equivalent of both sides ceding a few small towns to straighten the border. We did it with the British when we set the 49th parallel as the border.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
It's more the equivalent of both sides ceding a few small towns to straighten the border. We did it with the British when we set the 49th parallel as the border.

But that was a give and take where the British negotiated in good faith and ceded territory as well.

This was the Federation abjectly rolling over for the Cardassians, bowing to every unreasonable demand foisted on them by a *weaker* power, *unilaterally* handing over entire planets with populations of millions, and even covering up Cardassian violations of the armistice so that they could push this "peace in our time" deal through.

This was the Federation leadership essentially declaring, "There shall be peace in our time, because the enemy is offering a deal where *he* wins at *your* expense but not *mine*."


Edit: Even the oh-so-noble Captain Picard is knowingly complicit in this; in the events of TNG: The Wounded, he literally refuses to look at proof of Cardassian re-armament and preparation for attacks on the Federation, instead framing a fellow Starfleet officer who was acting on that evidence as a mentally unhinged rogue lashing out on the basis of a personal vendetta. Picard outright tells the Cardassians that he *knew* the other officer was right but he needed to close his eyes to the truth because his mission was to protect the peace at all costs.
 
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ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
It's more the equivalent of both sides ceding a few small towns to straighten the border. We did it with the British when we set the 49th parallel as the border.

Also, I *really* don't think you're correctly grasping the magnitude of territory the Federation gave up.

These were not the equivalent of "a few small towns"; these were labeled by the Federation as colonies, but were in fact *established worlds*. To put the numbers in accurate perspective, the *entire* United States had a population of less than two and a half million at the time of independence for all thirteen colonies put together.
 

nemo1986

Well-known member
Also, I *really* don't think you're correctly grasping the magnitude of territory the Federation gave up.

These were not the equivalent of "a few small towns"; these were labeled by the Federation as colonies, but were in fact *established worlds*. To put the numbers in accurate perspective, the *entire* United States had a population of less than two and a half million at the time of independence for all thirteen colonies put together.
And the population of the Federation numbered in the hundreds of billions.
But that was a give and take where the British negotiated in good faith and ceded territory as well.

This was the Federation abjectly rolling over for the Cardassians, bowing to every unreasonable demand foisted on them by a *weaker* power, *unilaterally* handing over entire planets with populations of millions, and even covering up Cardassian violations of the armistice so that they could push this "peace in our time" deal through.

This was the Federation leadership essentially declaring, "There shall be peace in our time, because the enemy is offering a deal where *he* wins at *your* expense but not *mine*."


Edit: Even the oh-so-noble Captain Picard is knowingly complicit in this; in the events of TNG: The Wounded, he literally refuses to look at proof of Cardassian re-armament and preparation for attacks on the Federation, instead framing a fellow Starfleet officer who was acting on that evidence as a mentally unhinged rogue lashing out on the basis of a personal vendetta. Picard outright tells the Cardassians that he *knew* the other officer was right but he needed to close his eyes to the truth because his mission was to protect the peace at all costs.
You are forgetting the Cardassians gave a number of worlds as well. From what I can find from some of the sources the whole thing was less a war than a series of border skirmishes. There was no declaration of war. The Cardassians entire plan was to throw people into the meat grinder until the Federation sign a treaty just to end the bloodshed, plus like I said the Borg freaked the core worlds in a way that it hadn't felt in a century, not since the whale probe. Also what the fuck did you expect Picard to do? Restart the war on his own? He is a Starfleet officer and he has to follow orders from command. He may not like them, but he was expected to follow through.
 

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