United States If you're not a Citizen, the Constitution Stops at the Border

[Deleted member]

The Supreme Court rules on the immunity of Border Guards from foreign lawsuit. This decision is a triumph for common sense, constitutionalism, the laws of nations--and a powerful support for a policy of actually having secure borders:

There's no dispute on whether Jesus Mesa Jr. killed 15-year-old Sergio Adrián Hernández Güereca.

He did. And there's a video of it.

In 2010 Mesa, an on-duty U.S. Border Patrol agent who was at the border in El Paso, Texas, shot Hernández at least twice — once in the face. At the time, the boy, a Mexican national, was on the southern side of the border in Ciudad Juarez.

What is in question, and at the core of a legal dispute the U.S. Supreme Court has been trying to resolve for nearly three years, is whether Hernández's parents, who are also Mexican nationals, have a legal standing to sue Mesa for damages in the killing that occurred outside of U.S. territory.

The parents argued that the federal agent's unreasonable use of excessive force violated the teenager's Fourth and Fifth Amendment rights, which protect a person from unreasonable search and seizure and assure due process protections.

On Tuesday the court delivered its decision: The Hernández family cannot sue.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Still an excessive use of force, so the police should still get sued

 

[PeliusAnar]

This makes legal sense, since nations have different laws and boarders are a thing for a reason. On the other hand this implies that boarder guards can shoot people across the boarder with no consequences, except in regards to punitive measures by their bosses, aka US Government. While I don't think the boarder guards will get trigger happy, they also have total immunity. It seems like a kid's game (which it clearly isn't), get across and you are safe, on the other side you can still be shot.

 

[Lightershoulders]

....I have to agree with the law, people from other countries do not get protections from our constitution, but I disagree with the context.

The officer still shot and killed a kid. Video isn't working for me on mobile.

Was the kid armed? Was it realistic self defense? Was the kid an active threat?

Murder is still murder, even if it happens across boarders, otherwise we wouldn't work with Interpol. I am not convinced this was actually justified.

 

[PeliusAnar]

....I have to agree with the law, people from other countries do not get protections from our constitution, but I disagree with the context.

The officer still shot and killed a kid. Video isn't working for me on mobile.

Was the kid armed? Was it realistic self defense? Was the kid an active threat?

Murder is still murder, even if it happens across boarders, otherwise we wouldn't work with Interpol. I am not convinced this was actually justified.

Video does not work on a computer either. Looks like the link is dead. There are lots of other videos with illegals throwing rocks at boarder guards, but I didn't see one for this specific incident. As for what happened. Article. To summarize, kid was running back and worth in a culvert over the boarder then started throwing rocks at the boarder agent. Boarder agent shot twice, one shot hit the kid and killed him.

 

[Lightershoulders]

Video does not work on a computer either. Looks like the link is dead. There are lots of other videos with illegals throwing rocks at boarder guards, but I didn't see one for this specific incident. As for what happened. Article. To summarize, kid was running back and worth in a culvert over the boarder then started throwing rocks at the boarder agent. Boarder agent shot twice, one shot hit the kid and killed him.

....Really?

And the police officer couldn't just back off and spray pepper spray at the little shit in that enclosed area?

If he was able to accurately aim and fire at the kids head, he obviously wasn't overly threatened to the point of requiring lethal force. Was the officer even hospitalized for being hit by a rock? Was he even hit?

Headshots at any distance with a pistol require actual aim. He was just looking for an excuse.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Honestly, I’d think border guards should just wear lots of body armor and only use their guns at the last moments

And be behind big solid walls

That said, the Mexicans and/or other South Americans are really risking stuff like this, it only takes one guard with a twitchy trigger finger for things to go bad

 

[PeliusAnar]

....Really?

And the police officer couldn't just back off and spray pepper spray at the little shit in that enclosed area?

If he was able to accurately aim and fire at the kids head, he obviously wasn't overly threatened to the point of requiring lethal force. Was the officer even hospitalized for being hit by a rock? Was he even hit?

Headshots at any distance with a pistol require actual aim. He was just looking for an excuse.

No doubt the officer made a bad call. But there is a reason you don't fuck with law enforcement, or anyone with a gun. There are legal and social consequences for shooting a gun, but you are still dead. So while the boarder agent gets a -100/10 for judgement and decency, I am also giving the kid's parents a -3/10 for not having taught the kid any common sense. The kid probably thought the officer wouldn't shoot and kept provoking and provoking, until he finally got a reaction.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

No doubt the officer made a bad call. But there is a reason you don't fuck with law enforcement, or anyone with a gun. There are legal and social consequences for shooting a gun, but you are still dead. So while the boarder agent gets a -100/10 for judgement and decency, I am also giving the kid's parents a -3/10 for not having taught the kid any common sense. The kid probably thought the officer wouldn't shoot and kept provoking and provoking, until he finally got a reaction.

Yeah, but still, taking advantage of “guilt” will make it so that even if it was sorta the kids’ fault, people will still demonize the border

Try to argue and you will look like an asshole

 

[Cherico]

A rock to the head can and does kill people.

Slingers for example were considered to be elite troops in the anchent world, by throwing that rock the boy used potentially leathal force against another countries boarder agent. You try that in most places and there will be bad conquences.

 

[LordsFire]

This is absolutely the correct decision for the Supreme Court to make. You do not get to use US law against the US when you're not even inside our country like that.

That said, whether or not the Mexican government should demand he be extradited to Mexico for homicide charges is a different question, and the correct sort of arena for the issue to be handled in.

Frankly, this is yet another situation that, if this problem hadn't been allowed to run so far out of control, probably never would have arisen in the first place.

 

[Bacle]

As others have said, rocks can still kill and foreign nationals outside the US are not protected by our Constitution.

This was the correct decision by SCOTUS, and not just because of the fact the kid wasn't even in the US when he decided to earn his Darwin Award.

Frankly if more border patrol agents were like Mesa, we'd less of a problem with illegals. Lot fewer people willing to risk jumping the border of they know resisting or attacking Border Patrol will get them killed.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

As others have said, rocks can still kill and foreign nationals outside the US are not protected by our Constitution.

This was the correct decision by SCOTUS, and not just because of the fact the kid wasn't even in the US when he decided to earn his Darwin Award.

Frankly if more border patrol agents were like Mesa, we'd less of a problem with illegals. Lot fewer people willing to risk jumping the border of they know resisting or attacking Border Patrol will get them killed.

Still, the US Border Guard gets a hit to its PR, the fact it was already constantly being attacked doesn’t help

This was another new “weapon” to be used against them

Also, gotta ask, are your borderguard armored? As for rocks that can kill, I think most people’s image is people just being a little bruised even by multiple stone throws, so they won’t sympathize and they will just expect them to standby and take the hits or fall back

 

[Lightershoulders]

A rock to the head can and does kill people.

Slingers for example were considered to be elite troops in the anchent world, by throwing that rock the boy used potentially leathal force against another countries boarder agent. You try that in most places and there will be bad conquences.

Bullshit.

He clearly wasn't in threat of his life, and you see a grand total of one rock being thrown in the video, where he immediately shoots. Again, a headshot takes aim to do, especially at the distance he fired.

He was ready to shoot, rock or no rock.



And the rock didn't even come close. Any red blooded American whose played some baseball could have seen that said object wasn't going to hit him.

As others have said, rocks can still kill and foreign nationals outside the US are not protected by our Constitution.

This was the correct decision by SCOTUS, and not just because of the fact the kid wasn't even in the US when he decided to earn his Darwin Award.

Frankly if more border patrol agents were like Mesa, we'd less of a problem with illegals. Lot fewer people willing to risk jumping the border of they know resisting or attacking Border Patrol will get them killed.

Not in this case.

This is a clear case of the officer wanting an excuse to kill.

We don't have supporting audio of the incident, but I do not believe that the officer tried to get the kids to come out from behind the pillar in spanish, or even at all.

 

[SergeantBrother]

If you throw rocks, which are potentially lethal weapons, against someone with a gun - especially law enforcement which are carrying out their proper duties - then you have it coming. Throwing rocks at armed guys is trying to exploit someone else's mercy, by using attacks that could be potentially lethal but probably not you count on them being kinder than you and not using lethal force.

This is especially true at our borders where there is a literal invasion happening and the USA is experiencing an existential threat, lethal force is justified especially in response to potentially lethal force.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

If you throw rocks, which are potentially lethal weapons, against someone with a gun - especially law enforcement which are carrying out their proper duties - then you have it coming. Throwing rocks at armed guys is trying to exploit someone else's mercy, by using attacks that could be potentially lethal but probably not you count on them being kinder than you and not using lethal force.

This is especially true at our borders where there is a literal invasion happening and the USA is experiencing an existential threat, lethal force is justified especially in response to potentially lethal force.

Still, I think there needs to be a sort of iron discipline+body armor

Also, I think the best way to deal with this would, weirdly enough, be to have the Mexican authorities show up and suddenly they end up dispersing against the guys who might be less merciful

 

[Abhorsen]

Still, I think there needs to be a sort of iron discipline+body armor

Also, I think the best way to deal with this would, weirdly enough, be to have the Mexican authorities show up and suddenly they end up dispersing against the guys who might be less merciful

You don't need iron discipline not to shoot there. Just don't be a murderous asshole high on authority. I hope he gets extradited, or convicted for murder here.

 

[Deleted member]

Whether or not the shooting was justified is immaterial to the issue at hand; a country of three hundred million people should not give up its sovereignty over the actions of a single man, even if those actions were wrong. So the Supreme Court ruling was necessary to avoid our prostituting ourselves to the whims of foreigners and ultimately opening up paths by which foreigners could sue for the "human right" of migrating to America.

 

[Abhorsen]

Whether or not the shooting was justified is immaterial to the issue at hand; a country of three hundred million people should not give up its sovereignty over the actions of a single man, even if those actions were wrong. So the Supreme Court ruling was necessary to avoid our prostituting ourselves to the whims of foreigners and ultimately opening up paths by which foreigners could sue for the "human right" of migrating to America.

Sure, the lawsuit was crap, but he can and should still be prosecuted for murder. I'm pretty sure the US would have jurisdiction along with Mexico, because the person murdered someone while in the US.
EDIT: just checked the murder statute of Texas. He's almost certainly within jurisdiction, as he caused the death of a person while in Texas.

 

[Deleted member]

@Abhorsen there was never going to be a prosecution, this was over a civil suit which has lower standards of evidence.