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[Aldarion]

No, horseshoe theory is completely accurate, and the fact you think the 'nazis and facists' were at all part of the 'center' politically just shows how much of a loon you are.

Yeah, you have no clue what you are talking about... as usual.

The entire point behind both Nazism and Fascism is marriage of Leftist aspects such as socialism and progressivism to Rightist aspects such as tradition and nationalism.

How the bloody hell do you call that if not centrism?

 

[Abhorsen]

Horseshoe Theory is bull, however.

Nazis and Fascists were both extreme ideology of center, and if anything, left-leaning at that.

No, horseshoe theory is completely accurate, and the fact you think the 'nazis and facists' were at all part of the 'center' politically just shows how much of a loon you are.

Eh, you are both sorta wrong somehow.

Yes, horseshoe theory is real, sorta. And Nazis were thus center, sorta. Basically governments aren't really plotted on a cartesian plane like the political compass would suggest.

Instead, there's two points that are special, perfect authoritarianism and perfect anarchy, where the left/right idea of the government doesn't matter, as it controls everything or nothing anyway. So Nazi Germany will look very similar to any other massively authoritarian dictatorship simply because having that much control requires similarities (secret police, control over production, mass slavery, mass killings etc.).

But Nazi Germany itself basically grabbed the social politics of their right wing and slotted it into the econ policy of the left wing, replacing the bourgeoise with the Jews.

But this doesn't work when there's anywhere near a moderate amount of government, hence why horseshoe theory is only sorta real.

 

[SoliFortissimi]

Horseshoe Theory is bull, however.

Nazis and Fascists were both extreme ideology of center, and if anything, left-leaning at that.

I've heard this one before, yeah. So tell me, Aldarion, what are your definitions for what makes a political group left or right?

 

[mrttao]

I've heard this one before, yeah. So tell me, Aldarion, what are your definitions for what makes a political group left or right?

The terms left and right are vague and differs across nations.
Although in modern times there has been a harmonization of those terms.
with right coming to be associated with conservatism. and the left with anti-conservatism. (they don't have their own ideal beyond being anti tradition)

of course, what is conservative differs from country to country.
in the USA conservatives means free speech
while in communist nations "conservatism" means restrict speech
the terms are quite shit to be honest.

 

[SoliFortissimi]

Let's wait for Aldarion to answer.

 

[strunkenwhite]

Biden explicitly wants to give them visas.

Oh?

 

[Aldarion]

I've heard this one before, yeah. So tell me, Aldarion, what are your definitions for what makes a political group left or right?

Left = progress, technicalism, external locus of control
Right = tradition, naturalism, internal locus of control

Eh, you are both sorta wrong somehow.

Yes, horseshoe theory is real, sorta. And Nazis were thus center, sorta. Basically governments aren't really plotted on a cartesian plane like the political compass would suggest.

Instead, there's two points that are special, perfect authoritarianism and perfect anarchy, where the left/right idea of the government doesn't matter, as it controls everything or nothing anyway. So Nazi Germany will look very similar to any other massively authoritarian dictatorship simply because having that much control requires similarities (secret police, control over production, mass slavery, mass killings etc.).

But Nazi Germany itself basically grabbed the social politics of their right wing and slotted it into the econ policy of the left wing, replacing the bourgeoise with the Jews.

But this doesn't work when there's anywhere near a moderate amount of government, hence why horseshoe theory is only sorta real.

While technically true, they did have quite a few social politics or ideas of the left wing as well - such as ideological worship of technology, belief in possibility of creating "heaven on earth" and so on.

 

[SoliFortissimi]

Left = progress, technicalism, external locus of control
Right = tradition, naturalism, internal locus of control

And the Nazis come off as leftists?

 

[LordsFire]

And the Nazis come off as leftists?

Yes?

They wanted powerful, centralized government controlling everything, identity politics, rejection of traditional values and free markets, they wanted a large socialized welfare system, etc, etc.

They had one thing in common with the 'right,' and that was nationalism. Everything else was left wing.

 

[Aldarion]

And the Nazis come off as leftists?

Leftists with some right-wing elements, to be exact.

Nazis wanted progress - and much like the Communists, they too looked to mythological past to find their idealized society.
Nazis definitely believed in technocratic government, power of industry, of science and so on.
And external locus of control is self-explanatory.

 

[Abhorsen]

While technically true, they did have quite a few social politics or ideas of the left wing as well - such as ideological worship of technology, belief in possibility of creating "heaven on earth" and so on.

The idea of creating heaven on earth can be conservative. "On Earth as it is in Heaven" being right out of the Lord's Prayer.

They wanted powerful, centralized government controlling everything, identity politics, rejection of traditional values and free markets, they wanted a large socialized welfare system, etc, etc.

Most of what you've described here is authoritarian, not leftist.

Also, their rejection of traditional values isn't really true when it comes to what German Traditional values were.

Now they did have some leftist elements, but ultimately, most of that stuff is just part and parcel of reaching a certain threshold of authoritarianism.

The reasoning (or stated reasoning) is key. And it's a hash of a bunch of different stuff, but the core of the belief is blood and soil. It's collectivism around a nation/people, not around a class.

 

[mrttao]

Most of what you've described here is authoritarian, not leftist.

leftist is authoritarian.
almost all leftists are communist authoritarians

 

[LordsFire]

Also, their rejection of traditional values isn't really true when it comes to what German Traditional values were.

What traditional German values is it that they are supposed to have supported?

 

[Poe]

Horseshoe Theory is bull, however.

Nazis and Fascists were both extreme ideology of center, and if anything, left-leaning at that.

Please don't start this idiotic bullshit again. You're wrong but will screech wrong shit until we all stop responding, it won't make you right though. Let's just leave it be and not kill another thread with this.

 

[Abhorsen]

leftist is authoritarian.
almost all leftists are communist authoritarians

A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not a square.

What traditional German values is it that they are supposed to have supported?

Being an army with a state attached, for one. Hating on the Jews, for another (though that was more a traditional European value, as ugly as it was).

 

[LordsFire]

A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not a square.


Being an army with a state attached, for one. Hating on the Jews, for another (though that was more a traditional European value, as ugly as it was).

Even if we grant those two things, which I'd only give a partial on the first, do you have anything else?

 

[Skitzyfrenic]

Nazi's shut down that bitchin' fencing martial practice that Germans used to have. Mensur.

Pour one out for awesome facial scars inflicted by swords.

 

[Abhorsen]

Even if we grant those two things, which I'd only give a partial on the first, do you have anything else?

The thing is, the Nationalism, army first, and hating the jews (which yes, was completely a return to tradition. Not all traditions are good) are all of the motivating factors behind what they did. Your list meanwhile, is mostly (but not all) just a list of authoritarian stuff divorced from motive. The motive matters, as it's the real only way to distinguish the right from the left once you get far into authoritarianism, as again, all authoritarian regimes start looking pretty similar as they get more and more in control.

 

[Ixian]

Damn them!

America is a one party state, change my mind.

 

[Zachowon]

The border stuff didn't go through is a good thing