Is/Was America and/or ShipmasterSane a Bully?

My belief is that the neocons, to some underlying extent believe that war is inevitable and that it logically follows that nuclear war is inevitable. They use this unsubstantiated stretch to justify their efforts to create an internationalist superstate. In their minds they are doing good when they sacrifice the interests of the USA to attack nationalist polities and ruin other countries on a grand scale. In this madness they are much like Communists, tearing down the country and telling you to 'give till it hurts.' The fact that this unnecessary butchery and their horrible trade deals yielded them immense profits is just a bonus, as is the fact that these profits are at the working class American's expense.

I think we can all agree to say, "fuck Neocons", and I'd rather dunk on them than get in a needless fight with another user. Yeah, it is pretty screwed up that they are making bank off of impoverishing the American worker- and aren't those types doing it in every western country? Because as I remember, neolibs/neocons have been screwing multiple ones.
 
I think we can all agree to say, "fuck Neocons", and I'd rather dunk on them than get in a needless fight with another user. Yeah, it is pretty screwed up that they are making bank off of impoverishing the American worker- and aren't those types doing it in every western country? Because as I remember, neolibs/neocons have been screwing multiple ones.
The real secret of the US attack on Iraq is the Saudi King's ongoing attempts to be rid of the Baathist Party. The Free Arabian Legion was the overall cognomen for several Arab divisions of the SS and their veterans deeply influenced the formation of Iraq and Syria as secular National Socialist Arab Baathist nations. The Saudi Wahabbists hate and fear any nation not led by a descendant of Moe-ham-id. King Abdullard of Saudiland hired some filthy lying little pimp who's grandfather was a known pipeline thief to sell American lives to get rid of Saddam for him. The little pimp went to Texas to hide from his war crimes when his time was up and Abdullard couldn't get McCain and the rest of the pimp's old handlers to fool the saps again. Obammy did throw lots of ordinance their way though. Syria is an open bleeding sore on the world and the Dullard is dead. Fortunately Putin stepped in to defend his ally. He is only making sure that no gas pipelines to Europe can be built to compete with his, but who can blame him?
 
Don't you literally say that to everyone? It seems like your standard deflection really, I mean you literally just did that in the RWBY thread. It seems rather suspicious that you always resort to claiming people need to read. At least that is my experience.
"You seem to think the people you argue with are wrong, ISNT THAT SUSPICIOUS?"
This is a pitiful attempt at well-poisoning if I've ever seen one, of course there are commonalities between my interlocutors, and thus my responses to them, what a meaningless observation, read any good Wittgenstein recently?

Walked into what? By dismantling your definition. I mean you are now are trying to argue the exact opposite of context even more, now that I caught you.
You're incoherent.
You tried to throw "bullying" out as a negative, as a pejorative, and insisted *I* was making America out to be a bully, whereas *you* diddnt think they were, then doubled back when held to your own context and insisted that "Bully" meant "anyone who used force or the threat of force to dominate or intimidate" which would include... Every single military, government, and policing entity since the dawn of fucking time.

You've embarrassed yourself with your own sophistry, and it's hilarious.

No, because everyone and everything dominates and intimidates at some point, so it would hardly make everyone a bully. It would have to be a pattern of behavior that establishes it. A country is a bully, if it actually pursues it
"USA isnt a bully but you want them to be!"
"Bullying is using force!"
"I-I mean it's using force- a- a lot! A vague amount of "a lot" that I can neither define nor attribute! But-! Uh! my vision of america isnt it and yours is!"

Continue to flail, I'm delighted to watch you self destruct in public.

and the USA you describe sounds like it would pursue it.
I dont have the time to teach you to read.

I am pretty sure you did propose a system, since you explained it and then advocated for it. How haven't you advocated for a system? Because all this argumentation sounds like advocating for a system to me.
-Explaining a practical reality is the same as advocacy
-Sounds like

I dont give a used fig what I sounded like to someone who cant be assed to pay attention or keep up with basic english, I care about what I actually said.

The USA is not a cliff, it is an actual entity.
The cliff is a metaphor for predictable and present danger, big brain.



And why should there be consequences?
There it is ladies and gentlemen, the ingratitude and arrogance of the world America ensures and protects, summed up in six words.
"Why should I get mauled JUST because I go around slapping tigers on the ass? Why SHOULD I break my legs if I walk over a cliff? Why isnt it a powerful outside entity's job to constantly ensure I'm protected from the obvious, predictable, and natural consequences of my own actions? What do you mean say thank you!? Thats it's JOB!"



you are the one saying what you are saying such things.
For those of you keeping score at home, this is the guy who thinks he cant possibly be misreading.


Because this sounds like cheap apologia.
"acknowledging the overwhelmingly likely outcome of a thing is apologia"


You mean the exact situation where someone has to take responsibility for their actions?
... No? The exact situation where one party has no recourse other than to shamelessly beg for assistance from a dominant second party under no compulsion to provide help besides "hypothetical and unexpected beneficence".
It's like you've never even seen cartoon porn before.

I am not the person who thinks insults are a good way to win a debate as it is clear you do.
Quote, literally the person who opened up with an insult.

I literally was stating I thought you were being an idiot, matter of factly, it is far different than what you are doing.
"I wasnt insulting you by calling you retarded, I was just saying that you're retarded."

Do you even hear what comes out of your mouth? You've made a fucking laughingstock of yourself, and thats due to your intensely hypocritical argumentation.


Everyone thinks they are exception
Not what I said, not what I implied, who the fuck are you even talking to? It's like you had this response prepared and just ignored that what I said didn't fit into it.


Everyone thinks they are exception until they stop being it, all empires fall and then come at the mercy of those they lorded over. That is the point.
Which is a non sequitur, and it should be obviously so, but allow me to wrinkle your brain a bit here: Saying "You'll be sorry when your empire collapses due to X" with the caveat of "Every empire falls eventually and it could be an arbitrary amount of time later due to basically anything" completely undercuts the point of "X is impractical" that is implicit in saying "You'll regret X". It's like saying "You'll regret making enemies with Jim, because in a hundred years you'll be dead, and maybe, maybe Jim will be the one to have caused it". No practical reason, no threat, not even an argument towards made-up probability, just "Everyone dies eventually and maybe your weak enemy will be the cause".


I clearly do, if I actually want the USA to be good and moral for its own sake.
You clearly dont, based on your own arrogant position that showing infinitely more mercy than all the empires before it and concurrent to it is somehow not only not enough, but in and of itself so horrible as to be criminal.

Because you never should have been there in the first place. You made the choice to get involved in the region and to interfere, and that rightfully earns you enmity.

Harboring an entity's enemy is, itself, an act against that entity.


No, that is you, given how much you are reaching and now going for cheap tactics. Keep at it, maybe you'll convince yourself you won, and people easily tricked by such theatrics.
Talk about projection with a side of incoherent sentence structure.

No, I don't I already explained in simple English why I didn't think it worked. And just because you try to torture the metaphor more doesn't make me wrong.
Just because you diddnt grasp the simple metaphor doesnt make an explanation of it torturous. Though I suppose learning can be a painful experience, even when someone hand-holds you through it by explaining in detail what something you should have already understood meant.


Again insults don't make you correct. You can insult me all you want, but all it shows is that you are insecure enough in your own position that you feel that you need
-Actually opened with an insult

By the way was that busted ass sentence supposed to have an ending? No, no, you're right, clearly I'm the one struggling.

And again you return to that cannard. You deflect, because I took apart your argument and showed your hypocrisy.
No, you really don't get it, you genuinely don't understand what I meant by the original comment, so your canned responses to what you think I said are non-sequiturs. Selecting individual, highly contextual words and trying to make some kind of insane point by citing formative, general definitions is bad faith debating.


No, I am pretty sure that this is because of continuous moral development and development of rules of warfare dating back to the middle ages. Such as the Geneva Convention.
"Literally what is world war one"
"Literally what is world war two"
The world has slaughtered itself gleefully, unrestrainedly, and on an ever increasing scale, consistently. What you call moral development is nothing more than the presence of a singular morally developed arbitrator dragging what nations it can kicking and screaming away from whatever happens to be the nearest sharp object they're trying to impale themselves on this week.



Well, you also get access to their markets, their resources, and military support so that you
Great, so for our blood, and money, we get paid back in infinitesimally less blood, and money.

Military! MILITARY HE SAYS! God, I'll piss myself laughing, stop stop.

Hows your country's NATO contribution this year by the way?


I am pretty sure 1 is going to near burn their entire country down.
You dont understand the functional difference between burning down someone's house and killing their entire extended family, good.


And why do they deserve it? You haven't established it yet.
You deserve the results of your pattern recognition failures, whether a given entity is morally justified in delivering those results or not. That is in fact what "asking for it" means.

When you cross America, you deserve Ghengis Khan, thats what you deserve for being so suicidally arrogant as to challenge something so much more powerful than yourself, and you should be infinitely grateful that instead you chanced to have America as your superior opponent, the only power in history that would not give you exactly what you should have expected to happen for being so stupid. You should scream your thanks to the heavens that you get to live in the unbelievably unlikely exception, and not the rule.



edit: I probably did misinterpret what you said

Probably.
 
"You seem to think the people you argue with are wrong, ISNT THAT SUSPICIOUS?"
This is a pitiful attempt at well-poisoning if I've ever seen one, of course there are commonalities between my interlocutors, and thus my responses to them, what a meaningless observation, read any good Wittgenstein recently?
No, you pretty much always act as if the person you're arguing with is mentally deficient in some manner; not just that they're wrong. Maybe if you showed even a modicum of respect for people you disagree with, they'd show you some in turn; but at this point, I think that ship has sailed.
 
No, you pretty much always act as if the person you're arguing with is mentally deficient in some manner; not just that they're wrong. Maybe if you showed even a modicum of respect for people you disagree with, they'd show you some in turn; but at this point, I think that ship has sailed.

I have to at least partially echo this. Shipmaster Sane tends to make good points, but be such an ass about it that I don't know why anyone would want to listen to him for more than a minute or two.

It suggests to me that the point isn't to persuade people of what is or isn't true, but to get some jollies by trash-talking and condescending to someone.

Protip: Even if the person you're arguing with is demonstrably wrong on every count, if you argue like a complete jackass, a lot of people are going to end up being more sympathetic to their position than yours.
 
No, you pretty much always act as if the person you're arguing with is mentally deficient in some manner
Read what you quoted, then read what you wrote again. Slower this time.

Maybe if you showed even a modicum of respect for people you disagree with, they'd show you some in turn; but at this point, I think that ship has sailed.
Here you go again with this bizarrely inflated sense of self importance. Why on earth do you think I or anyone else would want, much less need, your respect?

As for me giving out respect, respect is earned. You do know that word right? Earned?
 
Read what you quoted, then read what you wrote again. Slower this time.


Here you go again with this bizarrely inflated sense of self importance. Why on earth do you think I or anyone else would want, much less need, your respect?

As for me giving out respect, respect is earned. You do know that word right? Earned?

Respect is earned.

Courtesy should be universal.

You have a tendency to discard both at the drop of a hat. If you want to make the positions you argue for look poorly in public discourse, you're doing a good job of it.
 
I have to at least partially echo this. Shipmaster Sane tends to make good points, but be such an ass about it that I don't know why anyone would want to listen to him for more than a minute or two.

It suggests to me that the point isn't to persuade people of what is or isn't true, but to get some jollies by trash-talking and condescending to someone.

Protip: Even if the person you're arguing with is demonstrably wrong on every count, if you argue like a complete jackass, a lot of people are going to end up being more sympathetic to their position than yours.
I'm not here to "help" you or anyone else be correct, I'm here to confront someone's wrongness, because it should be confronted, torn down, and defeated. I don't care how you "perceive" my rightness, I don't care how you "feel" about how correct I am, if I tell you the moon isn't made of cheese in a way that makes you feel uncomfortable, I don't care, you're free to continue being wrong, just not being wrong while *unchalenged*.
I have no vested interest in convincing you that the moon isn't made of cheese, only not letting the idea that it is made of cheese go unchallenged in public. By all means, believe that it is, you are more than welcome to, I will continue to confront the idea however, as my schedule permits.

And if having your wrongness challenged changes your mind, great, bonus, but absolutely not my primary or even secondary concern.



Wrong things should be called wrong. That they are called wrong is it's own reward.
 
I'm not here to "help" you or anyone else be correct, I'm here to confront someone's wrongness, because it should be confronted, torn down, and defeated. I don't care how you "perceive" my rightness, I don't care how you "feel" about how correct I am, if I tell you the moon isn't made of cheese in a way that makes you feel uncomfortable, I don't care, you're free to continue being wrong, just not being wrong while *unchalenged*.
I have no vested interest in convincing you that the moon isn't made of cheese, only not letting the idea that it is made of cheese go unchallenged in public. By all means, believe that it is, you are more than welcome to, I will continue to confront the idea however, as my schedule permits.

And if having your wrongness challenged changes your mind, great, bonus, but absolutely not my primary or even secondary concern.



Wrong things should be called wrong. That they are called wrong is it's own reward.

That inflated Ego tho :ROFLMAO:
 
I'm not here to "help" you or anyone else be correct, I'm here to confront someone's wrongness, because it should be confronted, torn down, and defeated. I don't care how you "perceive" my rightness, I don't care how you "feel" about how correct I am, if I tell you the moon isn't made of cheese in a way that makes you feel uncomfortable, I don't care, you're free to continue being wrong, just not being wrong while *unchalenged*.
I have no vested interest in convincing you that the moon isn't made of cheese, only not letting the idea that it is made of cheese go unchallenged in public. By all means, believe that it is, you are more than welcome to, I will continue to confront the idea however, as my schedule permits.

And if having your wrongness challenged changes your mind, great, bonus, but absolutely not my primary or even secondary concern.



Wrong things should be called wrong. That they are called wrong is it's own reward.

And the manner in which you call them wrong, is key to whether or not you convince your audience whether or not they are, in fact, wrong.

You challenging lies in public, but doing so in a way that makes you look like the bad guy, and the liar the good guy, is a mixed blessing at best. Sure, sometimes it helps, but it can just as easily reinforce the liar's position.

And what, exactly, does it serve for you to be a jackass about it? Does it somehow enhance your argumentation? Improve your persuasiveness?

No.

What it does is give you some short-term satisfaction.

It's possible to look someone in the eye and tell them that they're lying without coming across as a jerk. You, on the other hand, seem to have mastered the fine art of making whatever position you are defending seem less and less palatable, the longer you argue for it.

If you're trying to act in defense of the truth, rather than using defense of the truth as an excuse to lash out at someone, start conducting yourself with more maturity and restraint. There's a reason that Ronald Reagan is thought so highly of, why he is called The Great Communicator. He could defeat the leftists arguments, and call them out on their crap, without deliberately being crass. He won a 49-state landslide, and accomplished a great deal of good for both America and the world.

There's a term that's still occasionally used to this day, 'Reagan Democrat,' a Democrat who supported Reagan.

Your demeaning style of argumentation, on the other side, is the sort of thing that will create 'Carter Moderates.' Carter was one of the most useless presidents ever, but Nixon's slimeball tendencies are a huge part of what made his election possible. You're so toxic, that you turn off people who actually agree with you, what effect do you think your attitude has on people who are undecided, or are in a position where they can conceivably be peeled off of the left?

If you want to actually accomplish something, learn how to read your audience, and behave in a way that will convince them, not get you some jollies.
 
That inflated Ego tho :ROFLMAO:
"It's arrogant to not care about me"
-This guy, who isnt arrogant, I guess.

And the manner in which you call them wrong, is key to whether or not you convince your audience whether or not they are, in fact, wrong.
Which is irrelevant if I dont care if I convince you or not. The calling of the wrong idea wrong is the objective, not the method.

I have no need for your vote, or your support, or your success, or your health, I need literally nothing from you. Your being wrong effects me none, even if it leads your life into disaster.


I dont need you to be right. I don't care if you become right. We are not in a situation where I have anything I value to gain by you being right. You have something to gain by being right, but I'm completely uninterested in what you have to gain.


Can you get that through your skull?
 
Your not sounding any smarter, more like a brainlet who's incapable of having a intelligent conversation.
 
"It's arrogant to not care about me"
-This guy, who isnt arrogant, I guess.

Which is irrelevant if I dont care if I convince you or not. The calling of the wrong idea wrong is the objective, not the method.

I have no need for your vote, or your support, or your success, or your health, I need literally nothing from you. Your being wrong effects me none, even if it leads your life into disaster.

I dont need you to be right. I don't care if you become right. We are not in a situation where I have anything I value to gain by you being right. You have something to gain by being right, but I'm completely uninterested in what you have to gain.

Can you get that through your skull?

So, you really are just in this for your own benefit then?
 

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