Breaking News January 6th Stop the Steal Rally & Capitol Breaching/Storming

S'task said:
The issues surrounding Snowden are complicated because, here's the thing, both sides have very legitimate points.

Snowden did reveal troubling aspects of the US government's actions that arguably are in violation of the US Constitution.

Snow ALSO revealed things that were completely unnecessary to reveal, were completely legal, but caused considerable harm to American international interests. He further clearly gave all that information AND MORE to both the Chinese and the Russians, neither of whom are good actors who act in the interest of the American people.

My personal feelings on him are that, because he did give that damaging information to the Chinese, he is, in fact, a traitor to the American people, not just the US; as the CCP is a government that is explicitly hostile and taking hostile actions against the American people, not just the nation (funding organizations that foment civil unrest and work to destroy the foundation of civic society is attacking the people, not the government).

So while he did do some good things in revealing bad parts of the US government, he threw away any goodwill or grace he earned for that whistleblowing by then turning that and much more information over to the CCP. If you really cared about human rights, you don't go giving secrets to the biggest human rights violator on the planet.
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This isn't a bad way to look at it.

Snowden did do the US civie a real service exposing the abuses of the IC against Americans.

However he screwed the pooch by then selling info to the CCP and Russia, in exchange for protection.

Had Snowden run somewhere that would not extradite him, but also not sold secrets to the Russians and CCP, he might have actually accomplished more in terms of getting the US IC to clean itself up, because then they wouldn't hold as much of a grudge against him.
 
Bacle said:
This isn't a bad way to look at it.

Snowden did do the US civie a real service exposing the abuses of the IC against Americans.

However he screwed the pooch by then selling info to the CCP and Russia, in exchange for protection.

Had Snowden run somewhere that would not extradite him, but also not sold secrets to the Russians and CCP, he might have actually accomplished more in terms of getting the US IC to clean itself up, because then they wouldn't hold as much of a grudge against him.
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No they still would have.
He did not go through proper channels. He lied saying he did as well.
There are procedures in place He should have taken.
 
Zachowon said:
No they still would have.
He did not go through proper channels. He lied saying he did as well.
There are procedures in place He should have taken.
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You do realize that lack of faith in 'the proper channels' is part of why Snowden did what he did, and is part of why much of the public sympathizes with him, right?

People do not trust the US IC/MIC to self-police or respect Constitutional limits or laws, not after the Patriot Act.

Going on about 'proper channels' is just going to make people laugh, and reinforce the image of the IC as unanswerable to the civies they are supposed to protect from external threats.

Snowden shouldn't have run to Russia and the CCP, but he did the US civie a service by confirming what many already suspected about IC abuses.
 
Zachowon said:
No they still would have.
He did not go through proper channels. He lied saying he did as well.
There are procedures in place He should have taken.
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"Proper channels," would have NEVER exposed the spying to the American public.

Proper channels are not an option for a whistle blower in his position.

Not saying he couldn't have done it better...but following "proper channels," would have gotten this burried. And he'd probably be sitting in some CIA/NSA black site cell while no one in the general public knows who he is.
 
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Bacle said:
You do realize that lack of faith in 'the proper channels' is part of why Snowden did what he did, and is part of why much of the public sympathizes with him, right?

People do not trust the US IC/MIC to self-police or respect Constitutional limits or laws, not after the Patriot Act.

Going on about 'proper channels' is just going to make people laugh, and reinforce the image of the IC as unanswerable to the civies they are supposed to protect from external threats.

Snowden shouldn't have run to Russia and the CCP, but he did the US civie a service by confirming what many already suspected about IC abuses.
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Rocinante said:
"Proper channels," would have NEVER exposed the spying to the American public.

Proper channels are not an option for a whistle blower in his position.

Not saying he couldn't have done it better...but following "proper channels," would have gotten this burried. And he'd probably be sitting in some CIA/NSA black site cell while no one in the general public knows who he is.
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He isn't a whistle-blower.
He gave up any right to be called that the second he went to China and Russis with info.


And there are proper channels so he could have qualified as a whistle-blower under law. HE JUST DIDNT.

There are plenty in place to be policed and if it is not getting policed he should have let them know.
 
Zachowon said:
You do know Snowden was a complete idiot that basically made it harder for us to get an advantage over our enemies...

And we like to kill things and make sure no one in thier family wants to try to take thier place...

Eh, they are and arnt.
A VERY small aspect of the NSA is.
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Zachowon said:
Fuck Snowden.
If lettingnour enemies know what we do is a good thing then fuck it.

I don't know why I ever try to defend the NSA when I can't discuss why I defend it.
I'm donenwith this line of conversation
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Ahh more boot licking. No Snowden did a great service to the American people by exposing the corrupt actions of the traitors in the intelligence community.

I don’t care that he ran to China and Russia those are the only nations that could protect him from corrupt American intelligence agents assassinating him or doing a forced extradition. Seriously Snowden did more to defend the constitution than any member of the intelligence services did in the past 50 years. The sad thing is Trump did not purge them when he had a chance by removing their funding and arrested those who have committed crimes.
 
King Arts said:
Ahh more boot licking. No Snowden did a great service to the American people by exposing the corrupt actions of the traitors in the intelligence community.

I don’t care that he ran to China and Russia those are the only nations that could protect him from corrupt American intelligence agents assassinating him or doing a forced extradition. Seriously Snowden did more to defend the constitution than any member of the intelligence services did in the past 50 years. The sad thing is Trump did not purge them when he had a chance by removing their funding and arrested those who have committed crimes.
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Snowden gave information to China and Russia about what our intel does.
You are saying it is good that China and Russia know this stuff?
 
Zachowon said:
Snowden gave information to China and Russia about what our intel does.
You are saying it is good that China and Russia know this stuff?
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What wargamer said. Only I don't find it that expensive. It's not like China or Russia are bordering America and we have to worry about being invaded by them or becoming their puppet. No all he did is make it harder for neo cons like you support to make it so that we go and protect other nations from falling under Russian, or Chinese hegemony which may suck for them or it may be better than being under American western hegemony I don't know and I don't care about hegemony. I don't care about your interests over seas. America should look after itself not others.

If there was an audit on what our Military intelligence complex was doing to see how much is necessary for protection of AMERICAN lives, and the freedom of Americans. We'd see that almost nothing they have done has protected our freedoms, so they are pretty useless. You can just look at the news and see why.

Look at Afghanistan, 20 years of nation building(instead of just going in to kill Bin Laden, and Al Qaeda, and punish the Taliban) with people saying that our soldiers are there protecting us, and without it we would lose our rights. Well now they are leaving, and the Taliban are retaking Afghanistan and embarrassing the Afghan government. So tell me Zach how has all this protected us when we are right back at square one, with nothing to show for it, and not in any more danger than usual? Can you honestly say Afghanistan, and Iraq was anything other than a total failure for our Army?
 
Keep in mind that Snowden doesn’t want to spend the rest of his life in solitary confinement, being tortured, or getting suicided.

Russia is likely the only place in the world he would be safe. Julian Assange tried to take refuge in the Ecuadorian embassy, but that obviously didn’t work out for him. The only nation that would protect him is one that has both some measure of hostility towards the USA (or at least our government) and some minimum amount of military and economic might. Russia is the obvious choice, but in exchange for keeping him alive, Putin is naturally going to want to know everything Snowden does.

Russia and/or China learning our secrets obviously isn’t good, but there are worse things. Far too many Americans, myself included, are sick of fear mongering over this foreign country or that one, this extremist group or that one, that supposedly justifies giving up all of our freedoms that our Founding Fathers fought for while placing absolute faith in our Deep State that has shown itself to be a threat to, rather than protectors of, the American people.

None of those nations or groups pose a serious threat to the USA aside from perhaps China. The Muslims that we were so scared of that we allowed the Patriot Act to be passed and allowed us to be dragged into endless wars in violation of the Constitution were never a danger to us, especially if we had sane foreign and domestic policies. China is a threat primarily not because of its military or economy, but because our country has been taken over by huge corporations and their deep state allies and China has been wise enough to buy into those corporations so that they now partly rule the USA as well. I would be seriously surprised if the information China got from Snowden came anywhere close to what they gained from our own supposedly loyal institutions.

Great empires fall from within, not without, and while many nations may be hostile to us or even pose minor dangers, the existential threat to our nation and to our rights, liberties, and very civilization come not from the outside, from those very institutions (public and private) that de facto rule our nation: the people whose power Snowden undermined.
 
Zachowon said:
Living a somewhat normal life? Manning is not in jail for thier crime.
Manning also got people killed
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Well he is a tranny so first off not normal. Also he did spend some time in jail, and there were reports of him being beaten and kept naked in their cell and humiliated. And he is only out of jail because Obama pardoned him before Trump came in.

Also who did he kill, boot lickers always go on about "releasing this information killed people!" while never telling us the number or who was killed or any proof. No your incompetence, or actions taken in bad faith have sapped ANY trust or faith in your good will. So without proof there is no trust in the words of the intelligence agencies. They basically act like they are in charge of the nation and set foreign policy without even the president able to check them, considering how they undermined Trump. Yeah the intelligence community seems like a bigger threat then China or Russia. A traitor is worse than a foreign enemy. And our intelligence agencies have acted quite treasonously in the past.
 
King Arts said:
Also who did he kill, boot lickers always go on about "releasing this information killed people!" while never telling us the number or who was killed or any proof.
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Trust in our ruling institutions caused the deaths of many thousands of Americans in Iraq, as well as tens of thousands more seriously injured and hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis as well as trillions of dollars that literally went up in smoke. Plus the subsequent military adventurism in the ME that shows no signs of abating.

There is no possible way that Manning or Snowden caused more deaths than the people they were blowing the whistle on did.
 
Wargamer08 said:
I’m saying if that’s the price for making the information available to the public, then it’s expensive but worth it. Governments answer to their people, not the other way around.
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And making your military unable to gather intel is worse....
King Arts said:
Well he is a tranny so first off not normal. Also he did spend some time in jail, and there were reports of him being beaten and kept naked in their cell and humiliated. And he is only out of jail because Obama pardoned him before Trump came in.

Also who did he kill, boot lickers always go on about "releasing this information killed people!" while never telling us the number or who was killed or any proof. No your incompetence, or actions taken in bad faith have sapped ANY trust or faith in your good will. So without proof there is no trust in the words of the intelligence agencies. They basically act like they are in charge of the nation and set foreign policy without even the president able to check them, considering how they undermined Trump. Yeah the intelligence community seems like a bigger threat then China or Russia. A traitor is worse than a foreign enemy. And our intelligence agencies have acted quite treasonously in the past.
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HAHAHAHAHAHA.
China and Russia would gladly kill us or put us in prison. Especially China. I'd you think the IC is a bigger threat, you are mistaken.
ShieldWife said:
Trust in our ruling institutions caused the deaths of many thousands of Americans in Iraq, as well as tens of thousands more seriously injured and hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis as well as trillions of dollars that literally went up in smoke. Plus the subsequent military adventurism in the ME that shows no signs of abating.

There is no possible way that Manning or Snowden caused more deaths than the people they were blowing the whistle on did.
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I will focus in who they killed.
What Manning released from what my Google search showed is information that basically sent a surge of attacks against US and Coalition forces in A Stan, as well as stuff from what I gather had names of people and informants.

So basically he is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of people that helped the US.
But obviously they don't matter.
 
Zachowon said:
I will focus in who they killed.
What Manning released from what my Google search showed is information that basically sent a surge of attacks against US and Coalition forces in A Stan, as well as stuff from what I gather had names of people and informants.

So basically he is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of people that helped the US.
But obviously they don't matter.
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Neocon wars and intervention have caused the deaths of millions of people over the last few decades and cost us untold trillions of dollars. If the American people knew how evil our rulers really were, what liars they were, if there were more heroes like Snowden, maybe that wouldn’t be the case. We can’t change the past, but maybe we can prevent more death and ruin.
 
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ShieldWife said:
Neocon wars and intervention have caused the deaths of millions of people over the last few decades and cost us untold trillions of dollars. If the American people knew how evil our rulers really were, what liars they were, if there were more heroes like Snowden, maybe that would be the case. We can’t change the past, but maybe we can prevent more death and ruin.
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So....
You are saying a guy who basically told our biggest threats how to make it harder for us to win againstbthem is a hero?
Benedict Arnold must be the hero of all heros then..../s
 
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