Nazism Is Socialism

edgeworthy

Well-known member
Official party dogma was...
The 25-point Program of the NSDAP
  1. We demand the union of all Germans to form the Greater Germany on the basis of the people's right to self-determination enjoyed by the nations.
  2. We demand equality of rights for the German people in its dealings with other nations; and abolition of the peace treaties of Versailles and St. Germain.
  3. We demand land and territory (colonies) for the sustenance of our people and colonization for our superfluous population.
  4. None but members of the nation may be citizens of the state. None but those of German blood, whatever their creed may be. No Jew, therefore, may be a member of the nation.
  5. Whoever has no citizenship is to be able to live in Germany only as a guest and must be regarded as being subject to foreign laws.
  6. The right of voting on the state's government and legislation is to be enjoyed by the citizen of the state alone. We demand therefore that all official appointments, of whatever kind, shall be granted to citizens of the state alone. We oppose the corrupting custom of parliament of filling posts merely with a view to party considerations, and without reference to character or capability.
  7. We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to nourish the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) must be excluded from the Reich.
  8. All immigration of non-Germans must be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans, who have immigrated to Germany since 2 August 1914, be required immediately to leave the Reich.
  9. All citizens of the state shall be equal as regards rights and obligations.
  10. The first obligation of every citizen must be to productively work mentally or physically. The activity of individual may not clash with the interests of the whole, but must proceed within the framework of the whole for the benefit for the general good. We demand therefore:
  11. Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery.
  12. In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice of life and property that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment due to a war must be regarded as a crime against the nation. Therefore, we demand ruthless confiscation of all war profits.
  13. We demand nationalization of all businesses which have been up to the present formed into companies (trusts).
  14. We demand that the profits from wholesale trade shall be shared out.
  15. We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.
  16. We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.
  17. We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.
  18. We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, profiteers and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race.
  19. We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.
  20. The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the state must be striven for by the school [Staatsbürgerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the state of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.
  21. The state is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.
  22. We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.
  23. We demand legal opposition to known lies and their promulgation through the press. In order to enable the provision of a German press, we demand, that:a. All writers and employees of the newspapers appearing in the German language be members of the race;b. Non-German newspapers be required to have the express permission of the state to be published. They may not be printed in the German language;c. Non-Germans are forbidden by law any financial interest in German publications or any influence on them and as punishment for violations the closing of such a publication as well as the immediate expulsion from the Reich of the non-German concerned. Publications which are counter to the general good are to be forbidden. We demand legal prosecution of artistic and literary forms which exert a destructive influence on our national life and the closure of organizations opposing the above made demands.
  24. We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our nation can only succeed from within on the framework.THE COMMON INTEREST OVER INDIVIDUAL INTEREST[13]
  25. For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Reich within the various states of the confederation. The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration.
... the 25-point program remained the party's official statement of goals, though in later years many points were ignored.

Breaking up monopolies and nationalising industry is not Socialism, the United States has done both.
The Modern US has MORE state run enterprises than Nazi Germany ever did.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
Official party dogma was...

... the 25-point program remained the party's official statement of goals, though in later years many points were ignored.

Breaking up monopolies and nationalising industry is not Socialism, the United States has done both.
The Modern US has MORE state run enterprises than Nazi Germany ever did.

And again, "state-run enterprises" are NOT the only measure of socialism. If enterprises are privately owned, but act according to state directives, that is still socialism...
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Official party dogma was...

... the 25-point program remained the party's official statement of goals, though in later years many points were ignored.

Breaking up monopolies and nationalising industry is not Socialism, the United States has done both.
The Modern US has MORE state run enterprises than Nazi Germany ever did.
Nationalizing Industry is, in fact, socialism though the degree certainly matters. Of your list, 10-18 and 20 are typical of socialist agenda, 10 out of 25 line items is pretty indicative that the degree is high.
 

edgeworthy

Well-known member
Nationalizing Industry is, in fact, socialism though the degree certainly matters. Of your list, 10-18 and 20 are typical of socialist agenda, 10 out of 25 line items is pretty indicative that the degree is high.
Its the Official Policy Statement of the NSDAP it is NOT my list!?

And practically the first thing the US Government ever did was to Nationalise the Post Office.
(It has others)
The only nationalised industry in Nazi Germany was the Deutsche Reichsbahn, the National Railway. Which had been nationalised under the Weimar Republic, not the Nazis.

What things people actually do matters.
 

edgeworthy

Well-known member
And again, "state-run enterprises" are NOT the only measure of socialism. If enterprises are privately owned, but act according to state directives, that is still socialism...
So the British Empire and the United States in WW2 were Socialist?
(State-Run Enterprises have existed for thousands of years)
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Its the Official Policy Statement of the NSDAP it is NOT my list!?

And practically the first thing the US Government ever did was to Nationalise the Post Office.
(It has others)
The only nationalised industry in Nazi Germany was the Deutsche Reichsbahn, the National Railway. Which had been nationalised under the Weimar Republic, not the Nazis.

What things people actually do matters.
I meant your list in the sense that you posted it, not to imply you personally were endorsing Nazi policies.

Ironically, you are ignoring what the Nazis actually did. You're looking only at the word "Nationlize" rather than whether the state exercised direct control over the industries.

Peter Temin did a decent analysis of this in his paper Soviet and Nazi Economic Planning in the 1930s. There he looks at what the Nazis actually did, ie. Four Year Plans remarkably similar to Russian Five Year Plans, with the Nazis taking control of major companies. They did not "Nationalize" the companies, they merely used price-fixing and coercion to ensure that the companies were owned by high party members, did as the party commanded, and built what the party told them to. From page 7:

The state did not own industry in Germany. It consequently needed to have a legal form with which to implement the plan. The Nazis signed long-term contracts with industry groups to buy their output at fixed prices (Hayes, 1987, pp. 118-119). These contracts were nominally contracts expressing agreement by both parties. But the two parties were decidedly unequal. The Nazis viewed private property as conditional on its use--not as a fundamental right. If the property was not being used to further Nazi goals, it could be nationalized. Professor Junkers of the Junkers airline plant refused to follow the government's bidding in 1934. The Nazis thereupon took over the plant, compensating Junkers for his loss (Nuernberg Military Tribunals, 1953, Vol VII, p. 416). This was the context in which other contracts were negotiated.

In practice the difference between nationalizing and the Nazi approach to industry is similar to the difference between slavery and identured servitude, that is to say, there's no practical difference, it's just semantics.

So the British Empire and the United States in WW2 were Socialist?
(State-Run Enterprises have existed for thousands of years)
Yeah? I think that's pretty well known and agreed upon. All governments, anywhere, have at least some state-controlled industry and those are socialist elements, much in the way that even the most isolationist government will have some diplomacy going on and even the most pacifistic have some military and police forces. Saying they're full-on socialist is like saying anybody waving a national flag must be a fascist: extreme nationalism is considered a part of fascism but not all patriots are fascists.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
So the British Empire and the United States in WW2 were Socialist?
(State-Run Enterprises have existed for thousands of years)

If the state controls the production, then yes.

And yes, both the US and the UK during World War 2 went Socialist, and for understandable reason - about the only condition where socialism performs well is fighting a war.
 

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
I'll make the same point here as I think I recall making in another thread where this topic came up: this is less a debate about matters of fact, than of definition.

Nazi Germany was an authoritarian regime in which the state sought to control almost all aspects of society, directly or indirectly. Using the threat of nationalization, if that works, saved them the trouble of actually doing it.
Whether that "makes them Socialist"... well yeah, there are various forms of "Socialism".

Are we trying to smear all other forms of Socialism with the crimes of the Nazis? Why do we even need to? International Socialism (aka Marxist-Leninism, aka big-c Communism) has a mountain of crimes of its own. Far more people have been cruelly murdered, or subjected to a wretched existence in labor camps, or the like, in the name of The Revolution than of any other ideology known to man.

And Western style "Democratic Socialism" (which arguably is neither!) has its own crimes too. Some of which are worse than anything the Nazis did. But that's a whole other debate.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
I'll make the same point here as I think I recall making in another thread where this topic came up: this is less a debate about matters of fact, than of definition.

Nazi Germany was an authoritarian regime in which the state sought to control almost all aspects of society, directly or indirectly. Using the threat of nationalization, if that works, saved them the trouble of actually doing it.
Whether that "makes them Socialist"... well yeah, there are various forms of "Socialism".

Are we trying to smear all other forms of Socialism with the crimes of the Nazis? Why do we even need to? International Socialism (aka Marxist-Leninism, aka big-c Communism) has a mountain of crimes of its own. Far more people have been cruelly murdered, or subjected to a wretched existence in labor camps, or the like, in the name of The Revolution than of any other ideology known to man.

And Western style "Democratic Socialism" (which arguably is neither!) has its own crimes too. Some of which are worse than anything the Nazis did. But that's a whole other debate.
It's very common on the leftish side to not only claim the Nazis weren't socialist, but actually fought against glorious socialism that could have brought peace and abundance to Europe, and were far-right in their politics, which feeds directly into the "disagree with our progressive stance and you're a Nazi" rhetoric. Proving that no, the Nazis were actually socialist, and far-left, disproves that talking point.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
How do you jam this into the brain of a lefty?
The point of debate is not to convince the person you're arguing with, that's generally impossible unless they're extremely intellectually honest. The point is to sway and inform interested bystanders/readers who haven't made their minds up yet. That's why so many leftist tactics revolve around censoring views they don't agree with and eliminating sources of information that contradict their doctrine. Those views and facts can't sway them directly but having the views available can sway interested readers who haven't made their minds up yet.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
I'll make the same point here as I think I recall making in another thread where this topic came up: this is less a debate about matters of fact, than of definition.

Nazi Germany was an authoritarian regime in which the state sought to control almost all aspects of society, directly or indirectly. Using the threat of nationalization, if that works, saved them the trouble of actually doing it.
Whether that "makes them Socialist"... well yeah, there are various forms of "Socialism".

Are we trying to smear all other forms of Socialism with the crimes of the Nazis? Why do we even need to? International Socialism (aka Marxist-Leninism, aka big-c Communism) has a mountain of crimes of its own. Far more people have been cruelly murdered, or subjected to a wretched existence in labor camps, or the like, in the name of The Revolution than of any other ideology known to man.

And Western style "Democratic Socialism" (which arguably is neither!) has its own crimes too. Some of which are worse than anything the Nazis did. But that's a whole other debate.

Because that is what socialism is: it is state control of the society. When Leftists claim that Nazis were not socialists, they are claiming, essentially, that a massively powerful, intrusive state with total control over the populace is perfectly fine, because Nazis weren't socialists, so socialism isn't evil. According to them, Nazis were evil because they were nationalists. And all of this, in turn, leads to the conclusion that you need large, powerful, intrusive, authoritharian, supranational political dictatorship to protect the people from the evil Nazis (a term which, to the Left, also includes nationalists, nativists, traditionalists, monarchists and all other undesireables). And that will be fine, because this monster of a state is not Nazi, so they will not kill anyone. And because Nazis were murderous despite not being socialists, that then means that socialism is not inherently evil, and so all the mass murders in the USSR and China were because Stalin and Mao were insane maniacs, and not because those states were Communist. Which means that Communism will totally work the next time, because they have learned.

That is the leftist logic, and worst part is, many people are buying it. That is why people need to be beaten over the head with the fact that, yes, Nazis were socialists, they did control the economy and they did control the private life, and that, more than anything else, is what made them so evil and so murderous.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
It's very common on the leftish side to not only claim the Nazis weren't socialist, but actually fought against glorious socialism that could have brought peace and abundance to Europe, and were far-right in their politics, which feeds directly into the "disagree with our progressive stance and you're a Nazi" rhetoric. Proving that no, the Nazis were actually socialist, and far-left, disproves that talking point.

There's also the rhetoric they use of "we're the only ones who really fought against the Nazis, and the only people who can save you from their resurgent threat".
 

ShieldWife

Marchioness
I’m sorry, but I think that the entire thing is ridiculous. It’s like the whole “leftists are the real racists” farce.

Leftist socialism is bad all on its own, it doesn’t need any guilt by association.
 

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