On Marijuana Being Harmless and Other Lies

[Marduk]

You were asking what to do with junkies, i.e. those who are addicts already.

That's the thing, if drugs were cheaper (both in financial terms, legal risk, and social stigma), there would be more people trying them and getting hooked.

And that's what AA and other Twelve Step programmes are for - they are not about prevention but about cure/not on the take.
I will be an alcoholic until I die, so I will pad the figures of addicts, but AA keeps me dry and sane-ish. And not doing #junkiethings (or, in my case - #alkiethings).

And as i was saying, their effectiveness is limited.

 

[Buba]

That's the thing, if drugs were cheaper (both in financial terms, legal risk, and social stigma), there would be more people trying them and getting hooked.

I hear the same thing about cigarettes and alcohol. I'm not convinced that this argument is true. The substance non-abusers I know will not drink more if booze prices went down. Hence cheapness does not necessarily lead to overuse and addiction.

 

[Marduk]

I hear the same thing about cigarettes and alcohol. I'm not convinced that this argument is true. The substance non-abusers I know will not drink more if booze prices went down. Hence cheapness does not necessarily lead to overuse and addiction.

>The substance non-abusers I know
Red alert, we have an elephant sized caveat.
The cheapness means more substance abusers will be uneager to change, and more stupid teens will become substance abusers.
Of course there are people who could be gifted with whole truckloads of free drugs of all imaginable sorts and yet wouldn't become drug abusers, but that doesn't mean this is a valid experiment to extrapolate into behavior of all the general population.
I on the other hand know smokers who tried, and in some cases succeeded in becoming non-smokers specifically due to rising costs of cigarettes.

 

[Agent23]

>The substance non-abusers I know
Red alert, we have an elephant sized caveat.
The cheapness means more substance abusers will be uneager to change, and more stupid teens will become substance abusers.
Of course there are people who could be gifted with whole truckloads of free drugs of all imaginable sorts and yet wouldn't become drug abusers, but that doesn't mean this is a valid experiment to extrapolate into behavior of all the general population.
I on the other hand know smokers who tried, and in some cases succeeded in becoming non-smokers specifically due to rising costs of cigarettes.

Oh, and I suppose you will be regulating sugar, fat and salt, too, right?

Somebody claimed that that mix can be highly addictive, and obesity has a high correlation with lots of societal and health problems.

And what about porn?
I mean, there is proof it causes some degree of brain damage, and lowers birthrates and incentivizes camwhores.

Where is this discussion going...humm, yeah, you know, an awful lot of crimes involve guns, maybe criminals would be less incentivized to...

 

[Marduk]

Oh, and I suppose you will be regulating sugar, fat and salt, too, right?

Somebody claimed that that mix can be highly addictive, and obesity has a high correlation with lots of societal and health problems.

And what about porn?
I mean, there is proof it causes some degree of brain damage, and lowers birthrates and incentivizes camwhores.

Where is this discussion going...humm, yeah, you know, an awful lot of crimes involve guns, maybe criminals would be less incentivized to...

If you do not understand the fundamental difference between restricting things "for your own good, according to the studies i've picked of course, you damn serf" and substances that make people do crazy, stupid, or stupidly crazy shit, then don't bother wasting my time with your quips.

 

[Buba]

I on the other hand know smokers who tried, and in some cases succeeded in becoming non-smokers specifically due to rising costs of cigarettes.

I admit that the price of LEGAL cigarettes plus a rough patch in my money making gave me the push to quit my three packs a day habit ... it'll be twenty two years this November <3
I do not remember the price of neither cigarettes nor alcohol being a factor preventing my additction forming. But it might be me.

And what about porn?
I mean, there is proof it causes some degree of brain damage, and lowers birthrates and incentivizes camwhores.

As well as contributes to Global Warming and COVID. Somehow.
Now everybody go and listen to "MTC" by S3RL
SFW version:

 

[Agent23]

If you do not understand the fundamental difference between restricting things "for your own good, according to the studies i've picked of course, you damn serf" and substances that make people do crazy, stupid, or stupidly crazy shit, then don't bother wasting my time with your quips.

😂 😂 😂 😂 😂

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

So marijuana makes people do stupid shit?

Tell me, how many arsonists and rapists did it "because they smoke weed"?

I mean, sure, the various puritanical nutjobs that originally pushed for its banning back in the 1960s thought it makes people into criminals, too.
However, the typical stoner behavior is far from that.I mean sure, a few of them might set something ablaze out of negligence with their silly cigars, but regular smokers and alcoholics can do the same.

And I bet some people manage to shoot themselves with their legally owned guns, too.

As well as contributes to Global Warming and COVID. Somehow.
Now everybody go and listen to "MTC" by S3RL
SFW version:

I am just lampooning the zomg ban it ban it ban it, logic here.

Obviously I think camwhores are a social negative, but hey, it is their problem, not mine, once their sell by date passes they will be left holding the bag with no real skills and with men seeing them as hoes and either looking for a quick pump and dump or disregarding them all together.

Maybe a higher VAT on those types of services after legalization will be better than prohibitions, though.

For one, it brings in tax revenue, instead of requiring tax revenue to enforce puritanical gibberish.

 

[Simonbob]

I do have an anecdote, about weed.

Many years ago, when I was a teen, I had a friend, who smoked a lot of weed. I mean, a lot.

Interesting fellow, but the important bit? He just didn't think very fast. After a few years of smoking on a daily basis, quite a bit, he was pretty much mildly retarded.


If he'd gotten off it, he might have improved. But, as long as I knew him, (And I haven't seen him for 20+ years) he was really slow.


Anything mind affecting will have longer term effects.


I don't think we should ban it, though. I think we should let people do their thing. if it cripples them, well, then we mock them for being stupid. Social pressure isn't something to be avoided, it's something to be directed.

 

[Marduk]

😂 😂 😂 😂 😂

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Nice way to shoot your argument in the foot. There is a reason this is a historical photo...

So marijuana makes people do stupid shit?

Tell me, how many arsonists and rapists did it "because they smoke weed"?

Ah, so anything less than class 1 felonies doesn't qualify as "stupid shit" in agent23land? Fun, got it, i'll make sure to stay the hell away.

I mean, sure, the various puritanical nutjobs that originally pushed for its banning back in the 1960s thought it makes people into criminals, too.
However, the typical stoner behavior is far from that.I mean sure, a few of them might set something ablaze out of negligence with their silly cigars, but regular smokers and alcoholics can do the same.

Great, so we went from "no stupid shit" to "no worse than alcohol" in the same post. And alcohol, in sufficient dose, can make people do pretty stupid shit, and there is plenty of discussion how restricted exactly it should be, varying by country in both hard and soft measures.

Tobacco is a different kettle of fish because unlike the other 2 it doesn't directly make people mentally impaired, the bigger issue with it is smokers gassing other people slowly, but as long as they get the message that this isn't ok to do, welp, it's their lungs on the line.

And I bet some people manage to shoot themselves with their legally owned guns, too.

I see you were using the same mind controlling guns that idiot activists had.

 

[Agent23]

Nice way to shoot your argument in the foot. There is a reason this is a historical photo...

Ah, so anything less than class 1 felonies doesn't qualify as "stupid shit" in agent23land? Fun, got it, i'll make sure to stay the hell away.

Citation about the number of crimes perpetraded under the influence of cannabis and a thorough cost benefit analysis comparing those to the social and financial damages caused by prohibition and the missed potential health benefits needed.
Oh, you don't have any, tough luck.

Great, so we went from "no stupid shit" to "no worse than alcohol" in the same post. And alcohol, in sufficient dose, can make people do pretty stupid shit, and there is plenty of discussion how restricted exactly it should be, varying by country in both hard and soft measures.

Yeah, sure, it offends and annoys you and triggers your paranoia and fear, so it has to be banned.

Now where have I heard that logic before?



Oh, yeah, among the various Big Governmnet worshiping Karens, anti-gun activists and other moralizing busybodies that need to go fuck off to North Korea.

Tobacco is a different kettle of fish because unlike the other 2 it doesn't directly make people mentally impaired, the bigger issue with it is smokers gassing other people slowly, but as long as they get the message that this isn't ok to do, welp, it's their lungs on the line.

All three have been used in certain forms for millennia, they somehow did not lead to civilizational collapse.

I see you were using the same mind controlling guns that idiot activists had.

I see you can ever into English.

First off, I am listing the arguments of various insane prohibitionists and anti-insert-here types.And with millions of firearms and rounds of ammunition out there it is inevitable that some freak accident caused by stupidity will inevitably occur, it is very rare that something is 100% fool proof,especially where so many individual items and individual people are concerned.

I do have an anecdote, about weed.

Many years ago, when I was a teen, I had a friend, who smoked a lot of weed. I mean, a lot.

Interesting fellow, but the important bit? He just didn't think very fast. After a few years of smoking on a daily basis, quite a bit, he was pretty much mildly retarded.


If he'd gotten off it, he might have improved. But, as long as I knew him, (And I haven't seen him for 20+ years) he was really slow.


Anything mind affecting will have longer term effects.


I don't think we should ban it, though. I think we should let people do their thing. if it cripples them, well, then we mock them for being stupid. Social pressure isn't something to be avoided, it's something to be directed.

Or maybe your friend was just dumb and lazy and not serious?

A lot of stoners are IMHO like that, lazy, disengaged and not really giving a fuck, they can get their kicks from the crap they smoke, so they become laid back and try to dodge any exertion, mental or physical.

 

[Buba]

I see you were using the same mind controlling guns that idiot activists had.

WARNING: The post you are replying to may have used sarcasm.

 

[Scottty]

Great, so we went from "no stupid shit" to "no worse than alcohol" in the same post. And alcohol, in sufficient dose, can make people do pretty stupid shit, and there is plenty of discussion how restricted exactly it should be, varying by country in both hard and soft measures.

Tobacco is a different kettle of fish because unlike the other 2 it doesn't directly make people mentally impaired, the bigger issue with it is smokers gassing other people slowly, but as long as they get the message that this isn't ok to do, welp, it's their lungs on the line.

The argument could be made that marijuana has the bad qualities of both alcohol and tobacco. It both messes up people's minds and makes them irresponsible, and since it is taken in by smoking, messes up both their lungs and the lungs of those around them.

 

[Marduk]

Citation about the number of crimes perpetraded under the influence of cannabis and a thorough cost benefit analysis comparing those to the social and financial damages caused by prohibition and the missed potential health benefits needed.
Oh, you don't have any, tough luck.

You don't have any either, so tough luck to you too.

Cannabis and violent crime - PubMed

We present a series of 12 cases of violent crime, which were all committed under the influence of cannabis in Geneva, Switzerland, between 1996 and 2000. The crimes were committed by eleven males and one female, with a mean age of 26 years, who were using only cannabis at the time they acted...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Marijuana Is More Dangerous Than You Think

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Research at CSC - Canada.ca

Learn how CSC research helps offenders work towards successful reintegration and assists staff in identifying effective strategies to work safely and efficiently.

www.csc-scc.gc.ca

I've done my part. I'm not going to be looking for your side's arguments, i'll leave that and dealing with the general questionability of the more fanboying ones to you, plus arguing for the voodoo *proven* financials of *potential* financial damages and voodoo public health arguments (we all love those lately, don't you know?) in form of equally potential medical benefits.

Yeah, sure, it offends and annoys you and triggers your paranoia and fear, so it has to be banned.

Oh fuck off. It triggers your mindless contrarianism that someone doesn't consider you a cool nonconformist cat like intended and instead laughs at your stupid contrarian views.

Oh, yeah, among the various Big Governmnet worshiping Karens, anti-gun activists and other moralizing busybodies that need to go fuck off to North Korea.

Fuck off to live among junkies and enjoy the company.

All three have been used in certain forms for millennia, they somehow did not lead to civilizational collapse.

Neither did slavery, ritual sacrifice, murder, public executions, and lead piping. Absolute clown world non-argument.

I see you can ever into English.

First off, I am listing the arguments of various insane prohibitionists and anti-insert-here types.And with millions of firearms and rounds of ammunition out there it is inevitable that some freak accident caused by stupidity will inevitably occur, it is very rare that something is 100% fool proof,especially where so many individual items and individual people are concerned.

Sod off with mixing your intentional or stupidity induced inability to understand my argument and trying to shift the discussion to guns and trying to ineptly milk kneejerk reactions. Accidents happen with everything, screw guns, take ladders, even more accidents happen with those. But a power tool, ladder, gun, or tractor can't make you act stupid by itself in the first place, while some substances can do exactly that, there's your difference.
Not so coincidentally, a good chunk of accidents with above happen to people under influence of some mentally impairing substance.
You are at the clown level of arguing that drunk driving should be legal because sometimes sober people cause car accidents too, because all policies should be based on being either 100% foolproof or screw it, do whatever.

 

[Agent23]

WARNING: The post you are replying to may have used sarcasm.

People riding moralistic high horses can't into sarcasm, only moral panics.

Also, the proper response to them attacking anything that hurts no one but the consumer for the most part, a hobby, alcohol, tobacco, weed, anime and manga, video games is:

Oh, so you are concerned that my time, resources and health are impaired, thanks, now that I have more time and resources and am healthier I can deal with you!

 

[Agent23]

Cannabis and violent crime - PubMed

We present a series of 12 cases of violent crime, which were all committed under the influence of cannabis in Geneva, Switzerland, between 1996 and 2000. The crimes were committed by eleven males and one female, with a mean age of 26 years, who were using only cannabis at the time they acted...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Misuse of statistics in public funded research, much wow.

https://www.thelocal.ch/20210323/in-numbers-which-swiss-cities-have-the-highest-crime-rates/

Geneva


Some 10.4 violent crimes per 1,000 inhabitants were recorded in 2020. Of these, 1.3 of were were assaults, 2.5 threats, 3.3 physical harm, 0.4 threats and violence against officials, and 1.2 robberies.


Also registered were 51.8 thefts (excluding shoplifting), of which 8.2 were break-ins and 6.1 were stolen bicycles, and 3.6 vehicle thefts.

So Geneva has about half a million of population, which means about 5000 violent crimes, times 4 years, which means that for the period in question about 20 000 violent crimes were committed, lol, a whopping 0.06 percent, I mean, that is a rate of negative outcome that even pro-RonaVaxx people would probably think minuscule.

Marijuana Is More Dangerous Than You Think

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

And from this article we see:

None of these studies prove that rising cannabis use has caused population-wide increases in psychosis or other mental illness...

😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂

But Mr. Booker is wrong. The first four states to legalize marijuana for recreational use were Colorado and Washington in 2014 and Alaska and Oregon in 2015. Combined, those four states had about 450 murders and 30,300 aggravated assaults in 2013. In 2017, they had almost 620 murders and 38,000 aggravated assaults—an increase far greater than the national average.

Ok, first off bundling those states, which legalized X at a particular time and doing a group comparison is kinda stupid, don't you think.

Oregon appears to have a lower overall crime rate than the USA proper, while as Alaska has a higher one:

Oregon Crime Rate 1979-2018

Alaska Crime Rate 1979-2018

In Alaska's case the uptick started in 2014, not 2015.

Washington State Crime Rate 1979-2018

Washington is the same situation as we have with Oregon, with below US average and following the same trend.

Colorado Crime Rate 1979-2018

Colorado is the only place that switched from below average to very slightly above average.

So, yeah, two out of three of your studies have huge leaks and misuse of data, bub.

3 out of 4 states on here are nowhere near the top 10

Tennessee for instance:

Where cannabis is legal in the United States

Although cannabis remains a schedule I drug under federal law, 33 states have medical marijuana programs — 11 also have adult-use cannabis laws

cannigma.com

Prohibits it, and has much higher crime rates, New Mexico, another violent state that has become more violent at rates similar to Alaska, legalized usage of cannabis in 2021.

Arkansas, another violent state in the top 5, legalized medical marijuana in 2016 with recreational marijuana still being a criminal offense.

Lies, damned lies and statistics, and puritanical cherry pickers who fall for them.

As to the nonsense about cannabis causing more violent crime, well, the key in the problem is probably recreational.

I know a bunch of people who drink because they are deadbeats, they are not deadbeats because they drink.
The alcohol is not helping any, but these types of morons use it, and the weed too, I suppose, as a type of anesthetic.A way to run away from their problems and flaws.Well, the problems and the flaws do not disappear, they are hidden temporarily and start to fester.

 

[Marduk]

Misuse of statistics in public funded research, much wow.

https://www.thelocal.ch/20210323/in-numbers-which-swiss-cities-have-the-highest-crime-rates/


So Geneva has about half a million of population, which means about 5000 violent crimes, times 4 years, which means that for the period in question about 20 000 violent crimes were committed, lol, a whopping 0.06 percent, I mean, that is a rate of negative outcome that even pro-RonaVaxx people would probably think minuscule.

And wtf does it have to do with the topic at hand?

And from this article we see:


😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂

Make sure to not cut your fingers when quote cutting like that.

None of these studies prove that rising cannabis use has caused population-wide increases in psychosis or other mental illness, although they do offer suggestive evidence of a link. What is clear is that, in individual cases, marijuana can cause psychosis, and psychosis is a high risk factor for violence. What’s more, much of that violence occurs when psychotic people are using drugs. As long as people with schizophrenia are avoiding recreational drugs, they are only moderately more likely to become violent than healthy people. But when they use drugs, their risk of violence skyrockets. The drug they are most likely to use is cannabis.

😝😝😝😝😝😝😝

Ok, first off bundling those states, which legalized X at a particular time and doing a group comparison is kinda stupid, don't you think.

Oregon appears to have a lower overall crime rate than the USA proper, while as Alaska has a higher one:

Oregon Crime Rate 1979-2018

Alaska Crime Rate 1979-2018

In Alaska's case the uptick started in 2014, not 2015.

Washington State Crime Rate 1979-2018

Washington is the same situation as we have with Oregon, with below US average and following the same trend.

Colorado Crime Rate 1979-2018

Colorado is the only place that switched from below average to very slightly above average.

So, yeah, two out of three of your studies have huge leaks and misuse of data, bub.

3 out of 4 states on here are nowhere near the top 10

You asked for crimes being commited under influence of cannabis, and you got that, not trying to primitively establish causation between legalisation of it and crime, lol.
Which is a PhD thesis level endeavor, tried by many and never done with ironshod certainty, due to how complex and hard to fairly measure the factors going into crime rates are.
Still, the legalisation that you insist on using as a yardstick is ridiculous, because naturally it's not what fancy legal paper says that matters, actual use rates (and probably also intensity/style), both legal and illegal, are what matters.

I know a bunch of people who drink because they are deadbeats, they are not deadbeats because they drink.
The alcohol is not helping any, but these types of morons use it, and the weed too, I suppose, as a type of anesthetic.A way to run away from their problems and flaws.Well, the problems and the flaws do not disappear, they are hidden temporarily and start to fester.

Well, that is part of the problem. Some dull, bored dude without any severe mental deficiencies can be trouble, but not big trouble, and he has decent chances of at least not being a problem, he can be reasoned with. If he becomes a hardcore alkie or a crackhead, now you have a real problem that can be a pain in the ass for the whole neighborhood for years, racking up 6, even seven figure sums in damages, emergency service bills, social services and so on.

 

[Agent23]

But, but what about...

Yeah, whataboutism.
Your arguments are thinner than those of the average climate alarmist.

I will repeat again 0.06 % That is the huuge number of crimes committed "under the influence" of cannabis, an insignificant number.Also, I don't know about poland or switzerland, or the USA, but here when they catch you doing stupid shit they test you for alcohol, drugs and the like.
Odds are that the morons were stoned while doing dumb shit.

Yay for the Stalinist-Harvard busybody IYI complex.

 

[Marduk]

Yeah, whataboutism.
Your arguments are thinner than those of the average climate alarmist.

That's a strange way of admitting that you have lost the argument because your cheap tricks got spotted.

 

[Agent23]

That's a strange way of admitting that you have lost the argument because your cheap tricks got spotted.

I will repeat again 0.06 % That is the huuge number of crimes committed "under the influence" of cannabis, an insignificant number.Also, I don't know about poland or switzerland, or the USA, but here when they catch you doing stupid shit they test you for alcohol, drugs and the like.
Odds are that the morons were stoned while doing dumb shit.

Yay for the Stalinist-Harvard busybody IYI complex.

 

[Marduk]

Yeah, whataboutism.
Your arguments are thinner than those of the average climate alarmist.

I will repeat again 0.06 % That is the huuge number of crimes committed "under the influence" of cannabis, an insignificant number.Also, I don't know about poland or switzerland, or the USA, but here when they catch you doing stupid shit they test you for alcohol, drugs and the like.
Odds are that the morons were stoned while doing dumb shit.

Yay for the Stalinist-Harvard busybody IYI complex.

Your point being? It's Geneva, Switzerland. A place famous neither for high crime nor high drug use. Also check Geneva's legal policy on cannabis....
The nationwide Canadian data is more relevant here as it's less selective and has far more context:

Research at CSC - Canada.ca

Learn how CSC research helps offenders work towards successful reintegration and assists staff in identifying effective strategies to work safely and efficiently.

www.csc-scc.gc.ca

��

Substance category	Attributable fractions
	Violent offences\Non-violent offences (excluding substance defined offences)
Alcohol	0.1991	0.0719
Cannabis	0.0546	0.0311
Opioids	0.0466	0.0626
CNS depressants	0.0114	0.0096
Cocaine	0.1059	0.1147
Other CNS stimulants	0.0315	0.0298
Other drugs	0.0089	0.0062
All substances combined	0.4581	0.3259

Important caveat:

Research Highlights: Over 40% of crimes committed by offenders admitted to Canadian federal institutions (excluding impaired driving or violations of the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act) are associated with substance use.

Cannabis doesn't look quite that insignificant compared to other things there, especially if you would compensante for vastly larger number of alcohol users.