EU Open Letter from French Ex-Military Officers Denouncing 'Islamism' Disintegrating the Country

[Zachowon]

They already have force projection into Russia. They’ve had it for a while they almost border each other only a few nations like Mongolia are between them. Still Chinas focus is on the south and pacific, while currently the US is all over the place Eastern Europe the Middle East etc. A Russia China Iran axis is more likely for Russia to pursue instead of a Russia America alliance. Russia’s interests are in Europe where China has no reach and the Middle East where Russia isn’t a big player like America is. The only place I can see where China and am Russia would have tensions is Central Asia. But that’s still less tension than the Americans are giving Russia.


Yes if the Chinese are complete idiots like the Nazis who piss off everyone around them then Russia could be our ally against them. Can you show the chicoms being stupid and antagonize anyone except American and other East Asians?


They can’t copy the China model China relied on its huge population to entice Business to invest and it makes them wealthy because of a large market. Russia does not have the same population. Also source on Russia losing Siberia? That would trigger a war between the Russians and Chinese.

Edit: oh and no way would any American allow the Russians to rebuild their power by going all the way back and taking Poland lol. They are threatening sanctions over small parts of Ukraine. Yet you think they will allow Ukraine Romania Hungary and more up till Poland to be part of a new Russian empire. Only in Putin’s wildest dreams does he become Tsar like that.

I definitely could see China pissing off Russia

 

[King Arts]

I definitely could see China pissing off Russia

Based on? Like here is a cheat sheet for real politics and dealing with nations that aren’t insane or stupid. Pretend you are the president of that nation what will you do? Your goals are at odds with the west in general and America in specific so you won’t ally with each other. You may cooperate against threats to both of you like Islamic terrorists. But you are rivals so you will work to undermine your rivals and ally with the weaker to check the stronger. Russia has its main focus to the west while Russia is a large nation most of its eastern Asian territory is sparsely populated its people and culture are European. So it trying to gain land power and influence in Eastern Europe. It also has puppet states in the Middle East while it won’t try to actually conquer those places because the people are too different and it is far away and not connected to the heartland, it will still try to spread influence and gain favorable trade deals and basically have vassal states. Russia also has land and vassal in Central Asia. That is the only place that China might realistically piss them off, but they haven’t yet and America pisses them off more by putting them in check in Eastern Europe and fucking up the Middle East.

 

[Zachowon]

Based on? Like here is a cheat sheet for real politics and dealing with nations that aren’t insane or stupid. Pretend you are the president of that nation what will you do? Your goals are at odds with the west in general and America in specific so you won’t ally with each other. You may cooperate against threats to both of you like Islamic terrorists. But you are rivals so you will work to undermine your rivals and ally with the weaker to check the stronger. Russia has its main focus to the west while Russia is a large nation most of its eastern Asian territory is sparsely populated its people and culture are European. So it trying to gain land power and influence in Eastern Europe. It also has puppet states in the Middle East while it won’t try to actually conquer those places because the people are too different and it is far away and not connected to the heartland, it will still try to spread influence and gain favorable trade deals and basically have vassal states. Russia also has land and vassal in Central Asia. That is the only place that China might realistically piss them off, but they haven’t yet and America pisses them off more by putting them in check in Eastern Europe and fucking up the Middle East.

Because why ally with the country that will take your land the second they get the chance instead of the country that will support you And potentially even help you out.
China would backstab Russia to get their hands on any territory they deam Chinese

 

[King Arts]

Because why ally with the country that will take your land the second they get the chance instead of the country that will support you And potentially even help you out.
China would backstab Russia to get their hands on any territory they deam Chinese

Because Russia can fight off China. That’s the thing you don’t seem to get America is a bigger threat to Russia than China is. Russia does not have a sizeable Chinese minority or even have territories that were formerly Chinese like Taiwan. China is not stupid enough to invade Siberia for its resources while Russia has a super large nuclear arsenal. Because if actual Russian territory is crossed the nukes would fly. China does not have enough force projection to mess with Europe or the Middle East which are its more important interests. They can put it in check in Central Asia but they haven’t yet. If it comes down to a three way split between Russia, China, America the Russians will lean towards China because America threatens its interests everywhere Europe the Middle East and not yet but possibly in the future Central Asia. China only can hypothetically threaten interests in Central Asia but hasn’t had a history of doing so like America does with its relations towards Russian interests.

 

[Zachowon]

Because Russia can fight off China. That’s the thing you don’t seem to get America is a bigger threat to Russia than China is. Russia does not have a sizeable Chinese minority or even have territories that were formerly Chinese like Taiwan. China is not stupid enough to invade Siberia for its resources while Russia has a super large nuclear arsenal. Because if actual Russian territory is crossed the nukes would fly. China does not have enough force projection to mess with Europe or the Middle East which are its more important interests. They can put it in check in Central Asia but they haven’t yet. If it comes down to a three way split between Russia, China, America the Russians will lean towards China because America threatens its interests everywhere Europe the Middle East and not yet but possibly in the future Central Asia. China only can hypothetically threaten interests in Central Asia but hasn’t had a history of doing so like America does with its relations towards Russian interests.

Russia is allied with Iran and can use them for force projection in the ME.
Russia wouldn't be able to defend against China in a meaningful way should they decide to take back their claims on the parts of Far east Russia.

 

[King Arts]

Russia is allied with Iran and can use them for force projection in the ME.
Russia wouldn't be able to defend against China in a meaningful way should they decide to take back their claims on the parts of Far east Russia.

Iran is a Russian ally as is Syria both nations that the US has been making aggressive moves towards. And I have doubts that Russia can’t defend itself against China. While it’s not as potent as the Soviets the Russians still have a powerful army and the ultimate guarantee against foreign invasion a large nuclear arsenal. China ain’t gonna risk Hong Kong, Shanghai, or Beijing turned into a mushroom cloud by invading Russia.

 

[Bassoe]

Umm you seem to be the one that is arguing for Russia to be stupid. While Russia is not friendly to China if they had to pick between allying with America or China it makes sense for them to side with China. America is the stronger power and is more hostile to Russian foreign interests. If you read Machievelli you’d know that allying with the stronger power doesn’t make sense as that will simply ensure America remains the world hyper power. If China upstages America America would still be a regional world power and China would be in charge of most of Asia but that does not mean they can have force projection into Europe or the Middle East or other places Russia is involved in. So why should Russia ally with America over China?

The thing is, the Russians can't trust America, because the upper echelons of our politics are full of senile baby boomer cold warriors who hate Russia. The rare American politicians smart enough for realpolitik that our interests don't actually contradict with Russia* don't have the power to actually change the course of our relationship and not having an attitude toward Russians which would make Hitler say 'dude, calm the fuck down' is treated as proof of being a Russian manchurian candidate.

* We shouldn't be backing ruthless jihadist terrorists moderate freedom fighters against the secular dictators they back in the middle east in the first place, and we'd both benefit from an alliance to counter China.

 

[Zachowon]

Iran is a Russian ally as is Syria both nations that the US has been making aggressive moves towards. And I have doubts that Russia can’t defend itself against China. While it’s not as potent as the Soviets the Russians still have a powerful army and the ultimate guarantee against foreign invasion a large nuclear arsenal. China ain’t gonna risk Hong Kong, Shanghai, or Beijing turned into a mushroom cloud by invading Russia.

China also has nukes for one.
And two, do you really think Russia would pull away their forces from the west ofthier country in order to fight china in Siberia?

 

[Terthna]

Uh, she’s very wrong. Trying to murder people with chemical warfare in foreign countries, annexing territory that doesn’t actually belong to you, starting shit on multiple borders to keep your neighbors from pursuing closer alignment with the West, and generally just being obnoxious fuckheads is very much the definition of being an aggressor.

Moreover you’re delusional if you think that any shenanigans that go on in Western politics are even remotely on the level of Russia. We haven’t staged any apartment bombings for the purposes of tightening a grip on power domestically.

Uh huh; so how does destabilizing an entire country, which caused the deaths of several hundred people, as well as ruined the lives of far more, stack up against apartment bombings? Because our western governments did that; they supported a violent coup in Ukraine so that they could reap the benefits of removing that country from Russia's sphere of influence.

Oh and by the way; "annexing territory that doesn’t actually belong to you"? If you're referring to the Crimean peninsula, that does actually belong to Russia; and not just because the people there voted to rejoin when their democratically elected Ukrainian president got overthrown in a violent coup.

 

[Airedale260]

The thing is, the Russians can't trust America, because the upper echelons of Russian politics are either full of cold warriors who hate America, hate Russia’s fall from grace in 1991, and hate the fact that America has the capability to foil their attempts to reassert dominance over Eastern Europe, or they’re full of greedy oligarchs who aren’t used to being told “no” and don’t understand that doing shit like poisoning dissidents with chemical weapons in foreign countries or using microwave weapons on Americans has consequences.

FTFY. Seriously, Russia hates the fact that they don’t have the kind of political power and reach they did even in the 1980s. On one level that’s kind of understandable, since the collapse of the USSR led to massive chaos politically and economically, and resulted in their sisters, daughters, nieces, granddaughters etc being exported as sex slaves to the West while gangsters robbed their country blind. On the other, Eastern Europe is understandably twitchy about being divvied up between Germany (well, the EU but it’s dominated by Germany with French support, and France kinda dropped the ball on supporting them in the 1930s on multiple occasions) and Russia. The U.S., on the other hand, actually gives a shit about mutual defense pacts and understands being friends with Eastern Europe means the Russians are automatically doing to dislike us.

But that’s getting off topic (we can start a new thread on U.S.-Russia relations if we really want). The point is, Le Pen is a Putin fan girl because she automatically assumes 1) He’s actually a competent leader (he’s actually not, especially on foreign relations), 2) Because the U.S. dislikes him for being the asshole he is he must therefore be the good guy, and 3) She’s under the delusion that France can go back to the way things were in the 1950s on economics and the 1930s politically (spoiler: they can’t).

 

[King Arts]

China also has nukes for one.
And two, do you really think Russia would pull away their forces from the west ofthier country in order to fight china in Siberia?

Yes China also has nukes but here is the thing MAD is based off survival aka don’t invade and destroy my nation or I bring hell on earth. It’s not made for using against other nations to give them free stuff. A country CAN use nukes to threaten non nuclear powers like China threatening Taiwan to join or else. But it won’t work on another nuclear power they can’t threaten the US to give up Hawaii for example. Nukes are guarantees against foreign invasion. And yes Russia would pull troops out of Western Europe to protect Siberia. Siberia is a part of Russia. Are you saying if China invaded Alaska we should not pull out troops from Texas or New York or California just because those states are more valuable? Unless they are at risk for invasion your argument makes no sense.

 

[Zachowon]

Yes China also has nukes but here is the thing MAD is based off survival aka don’t invade and destroy my nation or I bring hell on earth. It’s not made for using against other nations to give them free stuff. A country CAN use nukes to threaten non nuclear powers like China threatening Taiwan to join or else. But it won’t work on another nuclear power they can’t threaten the US to give up Hawaii for example. Nukes are guarantees against foreign invasion. And yes Russia would pull troops out of Western Europe to protect Siberia. Siberia is a part of Russia. Are you saying if China invaded Alaska we should not pull out troops from Texas or New York or California just because those states are more valuable? Unless they are at risk for invasion your argument makes no sense.

Uh///
There is a difference using the US and CONUS states with an OCONUS state, and Russia.
Russia would have to move LARGE amounts of their western force to fight in Siberia. FAr east of their country, where the capabilities of their own forces are severely hindered to get there. And you are then making your west weak, and if NATO really wanted to, they could use it to Invade. Would we? No, but knowing some members they may want too.

 

[King Arts]

Uh///
There is a difference using the US and CONUS states with an OCONUS state, and Russia.
Russia would have to move LARGE amounts of their western force to fight in Siberia. FAr east of their country, where the capabilities of their own forces are severely hindered to get there. And you are then making your west weak, and if NATO really wanted to, they could use it to Invade. Would we? No, but knowing some members they may want too.

So are you saying the Russians if the Chinese invaded Siberia should be afraid of a NATO and Chinese alliance? That’s pretty unlikely most people here are arguing for the opposite you yourself have stated that you hate the Chinese. In a Russia Chinese war America would support the Russians because like I said earlier help the weaker power. Russia has severely declined from its glory days while China is the rising power. Yes the west of Russia is more developed because while Siberia does have plenty of natural resources historically the Russians used their East for strategic depth to play for time against invasion from the west see Hitler and Napoleon. So while the Russian army is more geared towards facing west and not seeing the East as in much danger there army can still operate there it is their nation after all.

 

[Zachowon]

So are you saying the Russians if the Chinese invaded Siberia should be afraid of a NATO and Chinese alliance? That’s pretty unlikely most people here are arguing for the opposite you yourself have stated that you hate the Chinese. In a Russia Chinese war America would support the Russians because like I said earlier help the weaker power. Russia has severely declined from its glory days while China is the rising power. Yes the west of Russia is more developed because while Siberia does have plenty of natural resources historically the Russians used their East for strategic depth to play for time against invasion from the west see Hitler and Napoleon. So while the Russian army is more geared towards facing west and not seeing the East as in much danger there army can still operate there it is their nation after all.

.......I am saying Russia would not risk letting their forces be weaker on the west to make sure they can not be invaded by NATO. Would it happen? No. But would Russia wanna take that risk?
And China would probably prepare for such a thing

 

[King Arts]

.......I am saying Russia would not risk letting their forces be weaker on the west to make sure they can not be invaded by NATO. Would it happen? No. But would Russia wanna take that risk?
And China would probably prepare for such a thing

Dude yes they would weaken their defenses because Siberia is part of Russia. Nations won’t give a half assed response to an invasion. The only reason troops in the west won’t be sent East is if Russia is really fucked and they get stuck in a two front war. In that case they will prioritize the western part of Russia. But this is all conjecture because unless a technology that completely disabled nukes is made Russia would launch its strategic warheads at China if they actually invaded Russian territory.

 

[Zachowon]

Dude yes they would weaken their defenses because Siberia is part of Russia. Nations won’t give a half assed response to an invasion. The only reason troops in the west won’t be sent East is if Russia is really fucked and they get stuck in a two front war. In that case they will prioritize the western part of Russia. But this is all conjecture because unless a technology that completely disabled nukes is made Russia would launch its strategic warheads at China if they actually invaded Russian territory.

So...if you have those people in Ukrain and the Balkans that decide this is a good time to push their luck...then what? You made it easier for them to get into your country because you moved to many forces to fight another enemy. Nuke them? And get nuked back? No.
Also, nukes would not be involved because both would know they other would level it with nukes.

Dude, I kinda have been learning how this level combat works. It isn't as simple as you think

 

[King Arts]

So...if you have those people in Ukrain and the Balkans that decide this is a good time to push their luck...then what? You made it easier for them to get into your country because you moved to many forces to fight another enemy. Nuke them? And get nuked back? No.
Also, nukes would not be involved because both would know they other would level it with nukes.

Dude, I kinda have been learning how this level combat works. It isn't as simple as you think

First off Ukraine and the Balkan nations and most of eastern Europe don't have nuclear weapons. They by themselves won't launch an invasion of Russia Russia is the aggressor, they may or may not raid. But any invasion or attempted occupation will get crushed, it's like Mexico or Canada invading America they aren't in the same league. Second if you are surrounded on multiple sides then you are fucked and will lose no matter what unless you are led by a military genius. So you may as well concentrate your forces to try and break at least one of your enemies instead of keeping them weak and seperate so they can slowly be defeated. Three yes nukes would be involved, this is the whole point of MAD. If the Soviet Union managed to conquer all of Europe and beat the US Navy and launched an invasion of CONUS are you saying America would not launch because "the soviets would then level us with nukes also!" The point of MAD is that it prevents nations with nukes from having wars to the knife. Russia and China may fight each other using proxies in central Asia. But China invading actual Russian territory, unless those troops pull the fuck out of there, nukes will fly. What does it matter to Russia whether they get their nation destroyed conventionally by regular bombs and soldiers or by nuclear weapons. Nuclear weapons prevent full scale wars because they allow the side that is losing conventionally to flip the chessboard over and kill everyone.

 

[Zachowon]

First off Ukraine and the Balkan nations and most of eastern Europe don't have nuclear weapons. They by themselves won't launch an invasion of Russia Russia is the aggressor, they may or may not raid. But any invasion or attempted occupation will get crushed, it's like Mexico or Canada invading America they aren't in the same league. Second if you are surrounded on multiple sides then you are fucked and will lose no matter what unless you are led by a military genius. So you may as well concentrate your forces to try and break at least one of your enemies instead of keeping them weak and seperate so they can slowly be defeated. Three yes nukes would be involved, this is the whole point of MAD. If the Soviet Union managed to conquer all of Europe and beat the US Navy and launched an invasion of CONUS are you saying America would not launch because "the soviets would then level us with nukes also!" The point of MAD is that it prevents nations with nukes from having wars to the knife. Russia and China may fight each other using proxies in central Asia. But China invading actual Russian territory, unless those troops pull the fuck out of there, nukes will fly. What does it matter to Russia whether they get their nation destroyed conventionally by regular bombs and soldiers or by nuclear weapons. Nuclear weapons prevent full scale wars because they allow the side that is losing conventionally to flip the chessboard over and kill everyone.

No Nukes would not be involved. They have kinda stopped being a active deterrent when ICBM counte measures started becoming a thing.

I am saying Russia would be better to ally with the west should China attack them, or just ally with the west over China. Both would benefit more and make sure they do not weaken thier defensive line.
Your example involving the US is not a good one. Because At that point it would be the end of the soviets as they would over stretch thier limits and allows us to kick thier asses hard in the longrun. We would use nukes if we were for sure going to lose. Because let the world die together.
You obviously have no clue on how modern forces are working, and why Nukes are less powerful of a deterrent these days.

You do know China and Russia both have SAM missiles that work for more then just Air craft right? Thier supposed Aircraft carrier killers are from what I understand, also able to be used for ballistic missiles as well (From what Wikipedia says about them). Both China and Russia have these.
Look. it isn't as simple as you are making it out to be

 

[PsihoKekec]

No Nukes would not be involved. They have kinda stopped being a active deterrent when ICBM counte measures started becoming a thing.

Look up the Russian nuclear doctrine, nukes are on the table if territorial integrity of Russian Federation is at stake.
ICBM countermeasures are far from being 100% effective, intercepting 30% of 300 launched warheads is a cold comfort to people getting nuked. Not to mention that ICBM defence does nothing against cruise missiles and some MRBMs

 

[Zachowon]

Look up the Russian nuclear doctrine, nukes are on the table if territorial integrity of Russian Federation is at stake.
ICBM countermeasures are far from being 100% effective, intercepting 30% of 300 launched warheads is a cold comfort to people getting nuked. Not to mention that ICBM defence does nothing against cruise missiles and some MRBMs

The S400 is designed for both if them.

And yes, I know Russias nuclear doctrine. We read about it on preparation for our exercises