peter Zeihan 2020

you are more than welcome to post it.
Biggest hot take is that he sees a decentralization of power that doesn't exist in Brazil, saying the 'provinces'('states', Zeihan, not 'provinces') have more power than they actually do. There is decentralization of power in Brazil, but it is distributed around political cliques - it's not the states who divide powers between themselves, it is the different political cliques(especially in the Legislative branch, but also somewhat in the Executive and Judicial ones), who divide central power, and this irradiates to state and local levels.

He also believes Brazil will face partial disintegration(that is, some states will try to secede) in the 2030s. While the possibility of secession exists in the future, I don't see it happening in the first half of this century(unless, of course, shit goes real bad), and IMO, it would happen only in the last third of this century.
 
A lot of his data seems suspect; like when he compares America's and China's navies based solely on the total number of ships, ignoring both what kind of ships they are, and their quality. For example, note that even the graph he uses as evidence points out that China counts patrol crafts as part of their Navy, while America does not. And this is not equalized by the fact that the latter counts auxiliary and support crafts, while China does not; because not only are they far fewer in number, many of those, unlike the over 100 coast guard ships China counts as part of their Navy, actually help with force projection. Which is really important for protecting trade routes.

The main thing with the chinese navy is not where it is now, but where it will be 10-15 years from now.
 
Look at the infrastructure and materials they have. Think of how the prevailing attitude twoards corruption and graft will effect China's naval programs.
 
they can still put 100 blue water ships into the ocean over the next decade.
What condition will those ships be in? What materials went into their construction? What will they be fueled by and how well do the engines run let alone how fragile are the electronic systems?

Sure 100 ships in the next decade, but if they have to spend 10 months of the year in drydock?
 
What condition will those ships be in? What materials went into their construction? What will they be fueled by and how well do the engines run let alone how fragile are the electronic systems?

Sure 100 ships in the next decade, but if they have to spend 10 months of the year in drydock?

they have 23 million tonnes of shipyard capacity. im sure they can build decent ships.
 
Honestly, having watched the Argentina video, Peter's explanation of Peronism actually makes me wonder if we've been operating under that policy for the past few decades, and cheaply available capital and some looser regulations in some areas of the economy masked that fact.
 
they have 23 million tonnes of shipyard capacity. im sure they can build decent ships.
And where, exactly, do you think the money to build those ships is going to come from? Considering even the guy criticizing Zeihan admits in another video, after spending almost twenty minutes praising China's economic development, that their economy is headed for a collapse (though in a way that ignores most of the contributing factors that exposes how totalitarian and monstrous their government is).
 
they have 23 million tonnes of shipyard capacity. im sure they can build decent ships.
This is literally 'I just think it's that way.'

Building full-up military blue-water ships is no small task. They're huge, they have multiple interdependent systems, they require high levels of skill and quality control to build and use and maintain.

None of these are things communist regimes are well known for.

I'd treat any newly-launched ships as very serious potential threats, but I'd expect their service life to be a fraction of what it's supposed to be on paper, and their actual performance capabilities to degrade significantly over the course of just five years out of dock.

Notably, the Chinese can't even get their three current carriers to be fully functional and on proper blue-water deployment. This suggests that they're probably not going to be doing terribly well with other ships either.
 
A lot of his data seems suspect; like when he compares America's and China's navies based solely on the total number of ships, ignoring both what kind of ships they are, and their quality. For example, note that even the graph he uses as evidence points out that China counts patrol crafts as part of their Navy, while America does not. And this is not equalized by the fact that the latter counts auxiliary and support crafts, while China does not; because not only are they far fewer in number, many of those, unlike the over 100 coast guard ships China counts as part of their Navy, actually help with force projection. Which is really important for protecting trade routes.

Well, unless I'm thinking of the wrong video, isn't his point there that China's tonnage doesn't matter for the kind of problem Peter is predicting, namely pirates?

Like, sure China has a smaller navy tonnage wise might mean China can't win a head on head WWIII naval war with the US with its current fleet, but Peter isn't saying China's doomed because it will lose WWIII against the US, its that China can't protect its ships from pirates.

Like, sure the US mostly leads in anti piracy activities now (though China does a lot of it) but if the US for some reason stopped (something there's basically no evidence for) there is very little evidence that China depends on the US for anti-piracy operations in some necessary's way. Given their fleet is already big enough to do those kinds of operations when needed. Since the fleet is already big enough to do so, the idea that without the US pirates would just run amok in some catastrophic way is just not plausible.
 
This is literally 'I just think it's that way.'

Building full-up military blue-water ships is no small task. They're huge, they have multiple interdependent systems, they require high levels of skill and quality control to build and use and maintain.

None of these are things communist regimes are well known for.

I'd treat any newly-launched ships as very serious potential threats, but I'd expect their service life to be a fraction of what it's supposed to be on paper, and their actual performance capabilities to degrade significantly over the course of just five years out of dock.

Notably, the Chinese can't even get their three current carriers to be fully functional and on proper blue-water deployment. This suggests that they're probably not going to be doing terribly well with other ships either.

I mean, if all the fleet has to do is beat up pirates, your not actually talking about ships particularly more complex than civilian, which the Chinese already build 23 million tons of a year.

This seems a bit of a mote and bailey here: Warships might be hard to build, and the Chinese currently couldn't win WWIII with just existing ships, so therefore pirates will overwhelm any fleet China can put to sea?

Remember what argument were having here: your not arguing with me about China's ability to win WWIII, your arguing for Peter's point that China is incapable of suppressing pirates to manageable levels in places they care about.
 
Well, unless I'm thinking of the wrong video, isn't his point there that China's tonnage doesn't matter for the kind of problem Peter is predicting, namely pirates?

Like, sure China has a smaller navy tonnage wise might mean China can't win a head on head WWIII naval war with the US with its current fleet, but Peter isn't saying China's doomed because it will lose WWIII against the US, its that China can't protect its ships from pirates.

Like, sure the US mostly leads in anti piracy activities now (though China does a lot of it) but if the US for some reason stopped (something there's basically no evidence for) there is very little evidence that China depends on the US for anti-piracy operations in some necessary's way. Given their fleet is already big enough to do those kinds of operations when needed. Since the fleet is already big enough to do so, the idea that without the US pirates would just run amok in some catastrophic way is just not plausible.

Those "pirates" have names like Japan and India.

China can generally defend its coasts and contest its immediate naval environment. What it is basically utterly incapable of doing is 1) interdicting shipping to its likely enemies, or 2) defending the shipments that it needs against hostile action.

Japan has a blue water Navy, the second most capable in the world after the United States. It is entirely capable of interdicting ALL ocean going transport too and from China outside of the range of China's weapons systems and the PLAN is incapable of preventing that.

India could interdict basically all Persian Gulf oil flows to China with essentially zero risk or effort, and against China is incapable of preventing that.

The US/USN could end shipping to China essentially by decree. One public comment by the US President that the USN will interdict shipments to China and will sanction everyone involved and the USN seizing so much as a single ship violating that decree and there is not a ship in the world that will trade with China. No port would touch a Chinese owned or flagged vessel and no non-Chinese owned/flagged vessel would go anywhere near China.

The Chinese economy is utterly dependent on ocean going transport for both raw materials imports (oil is the biggest but by no means the only one of relevance) and for moving its products to market.

Vietnam, Australia, Japan, India, South Korea; they all could basically cut the Chinese economy off at the knees with fairly trivial ease.

And that's before you get into the more deniable operations. Piracy against modern shipping is fairly trivial and can be done incredibly cheaply. The biggest limiting factor is that it is fairly hard to find a port that is willing to accept the pirated vessel and cargo; largely because every nation is aware that the US would take a very dim view on openly supporting piracy. But if that changes?

Say Thailand decides that it is willing to let pirated Chinese flagged vessels be disposed of (along with their cargos) in its ports and the US refuses to express displeasure. The next day basically every US, British, French, and Australian special forces veteran will turn pirate because it is incredibly trivial for someone with their training to pirate a modern oil tanker and even selling it (and its cargo) for ten percent of market price would set the entire team up as multi-millionaires.

And China is basically incapable of preventing that kind of thing. It's only recourse would be open retaliation except the PLAN isn't really able to effectively retaliate without going nuclear. And that assumes that Thailand isn't being at least a little deniable and every other nation that doesn't much like China is willing to just stand aside and let the PLAN attempt to retaliate.

---
The US doesn't need to convoy its shipping outside of an active war zone. The US is able to track basically everything that sails and, in the event that piracy becomes an issue, park a carrier strike group and marine expeditionary force off the coast of whatever port(s) are disposing of the prize ships and cargos. And everyone who controls those ports is aware of this fact and very much does not want the USN expressing its displeasure on them.

The few nations that could be enough of a hassle/threat that the US couldn't just casually punish for supporting piracy (China, for example) are also one that the US has lots of other leverage over and ones where the US could make the costs too high for the piracy support to be worthwhile.

But what does China do if Japan decides that it is perfectly content to dispose of Chinese flagged/owned vessels?
 
Those "pirates" have names like Japan and India.

China can generally defend its coasts and contest its immediate naval environment. What it is basically utterly incapable of doing is 1) interdicting shipping to its likely enemies, or 2) defending the shipments that it needs against hostile action.

Japan has a blue water Navy, the second most capable in the world after the United States. It is entirely capable of interdicting ALL ocean going transport too and from China outside of the range of China's weapons systems and the PLAN is incapable of preventing that.

India could interdict basically all Persian Gulf oil flows to China with essentially zero risk or effort, and against China is incapable of preventing that.

The US/USN could end shipping to China essentially by decree. One public comment by the US President that the USN will interdict shipments to China and will sanction everyone involved and the USN seizing so much as a single ship violating that decree and there is not a ship in the world that will trade with China. No port would touch a Chinese owned or flagged vessel and no non-Chinese owned/flagged vessel would go anywhere near China.

The Chinese economy is utterly dependent on ocean going transport for both raw materials imports (oil is the biggest but by no means the only one of relevance) and for moving its products to market.

Vietnam, Australia, Japan, India, South Korea; they all could basically cut the Chinese economy off at the knees with fairly trivial ease.

And that's before you get into the more deniable operations. Piracy against modern shipping is fairly trivial and can be done incredibly cheaply. The biggest limiting factor is that it is fairly hard to find a port that is willing to accept the pirated vessel and cargo; largely because every nation is aware that the US would take a very dim view on openly supporting piracy. But if that changes?

Say Thailand decides that it is willing to let pirated Chinese flagged vessels be disposed of (along with their cargos) in its ports and the US refuses to express displeasure. The next day basically every US, British, French, and Australian special forces veteran will turn pirate because it is incredibly trivial for someone with their training to pirate a modern oil tanker and even selling it (and its cargo) for ten percent of market price would set the entire team up as multi-millionaires.

And China is basically incapable of preventing that kind of thing. It's only recourse would be open retaliation except the PLAN isn't really able to effectively retaliate without going nuclear. And that assumes that Thailand isn't being at least a little deniable and every other nation that doesn't much like China is willing to just stand aside and let the PLAN attempt to retaliate.

---
The US doesn't need to convoy its shipping outside of an active war zone. The US is able to track basically everything that sails and, in the event that piracy becomes an issue, park a carrier strike group and marine expeditionary force off the coast of whatever port(s) are disposing of the prize ships and cargos. And everyone who controls those ports is aware of this fact and very much does not want the USN expressing its displeasure on them.

The few nations that could be enough of a hassle/threat that the US couldn't just casually punish for supporting piracy (China, for example) are also one that the US has lots of other leverage over and ones where the US could make the costs too high for the piracy support to be worthwhile.

But what does China do if Japan decides that it is perfectly content to dispose of Chinese flagged/owned vessels?

In which case we seem to be talking about China's ability to win WWIII. Which seems to be a different issue than Peter's claim. If by Piracy Peter means WWIII, then he's choosing an extremely poor term for what he means.

The range of things China could do also seems to be dramatically underestimated.
 
Peter talks about the terrorist attack on the anniversary of an IRGC general's death:


-Not the US
-Probably not the Israelis, because they generally don't go for blowing up crowds unless there's high target density
-Could be an ethnic minority in Iran who doesn't like the Persians
-Could be Arabs in southwestern Iran (definitely don't like the Persians)
-Could be ethnic Azerbijanis in the north
-Iran has dozens of ethnic groups controlling various valleys
-It took thousands of years to get the Persians to 51% of the population
-It gives Iran a lot of experience with handling and managing fractious populations
 
This is literally 'I just think it's that way.'

Building full-up military blue-water ships is no small task. They're huge, they have multiple interdependent systems, they require high levels of skill and quality control to build and use and maintain.

None of these are things communist regimes are well known for.

And yet, China has been outbuilding the U.S. in raw numbers and in tonnage for almost half a decade now.



Notably, the Chinese can't even get their three current carriers to be fully functional and on proper blue-water deployment. This suggests that they're probably not going to be doing terribly well with other ships either.

Except they've literally been deploying them regularly around Taiwan and their observed sortie rates are just a bit below what a Nimitz Class regularly does in a day?
 
And yet, China has been outbuilding the U.S. in raw numbers and in tonnage for almost half a decade now.





Except they've literally been deploying them regularly around Taiwan and their observed sortie rates are just a bit below what a Nimitz Class regularly does in a day?


people will still insist that China, despite turning about 9 times the number of engineers that the USA does still cant build or design anything.

China's newest destroyers are on par with western designs, and they are finally getting around to building good submarines.
 
They are completely untested and have not done anything except bully smaller nations navies
 
  • Like
Reactions: Poe

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top