Russia-Ukraine War Politics Thread Mk. 2

[Marduk]

No I get that alot of nations like Germany and Japan are nuclear breakout states. But the NPT is a foolish treaty for them to adhere to. You've even brought up that we have to protect Ukraine because of them giving up their nukes, and if we don't it makes it more likely others won't consider treaties as sufficient defense and will go for their own nukes.

But your vaunted establishment has done damage to that idea itself when they sabotaged Gadafi. He stopped his nuclear program it did not help him. North Korea kept it up and is now seen as too dangerous to attack. It makes sense for nations to go like Iran and go for nukes even if they face sanctions because those are temporary while if they give up nukes like Gadafi or Ukraine it will be worthless since 10 or 20 or 100 years from now you won't have protection. While nukes assuming there is no new tech that makes them worthless will ensure you are safe always.

20 to 100 years is far better than "yesterday", leaves time for people to adapt. Yes, establishment did stupid by inaction, but tht's no reason to follow up with total retardation, as in doing same but worse.

 

[Bassoe]

Iran in the corner...

Iran being cornered doesn't matter, insofar as they don't actually have the firepower to do anything existentially threatening to the species about it.

Letting it stand that nuclear powers can launch wars of conquest and the West is going to fearmonger themselves into thinking that any country by mere virtue of being a nuclear power needs to be granted at least some sort of limited victory is the real apocalyptic threat, as every existing and potential nuclear power will see that and make future plans accordingly.
If you think one authoritarian leader of a nuclear power launching and losing a war against a loosely western aligned country for fun and profit is a bad escalation risk, how about several of them doing that every decade because the West has shown them they are so chickenshit that they will pressure own allies to make some degree of partial surrender if they saber rattle enough.

That was already the status quo.

Iran may already have the bomb, and hid it as a North Korean nuclear test.

Why? The whole point of having The Bomb is to make it explicitly clear that you've got it and will use it if otherwise losing.

Ukraine could have a nuke pretty damn fast if they wanted to, not like they don't have the reactors to make weapons grade material and the tech know-how from maintain Russia's old missile fleet before 2014.

Bullshit, if Ukraine had nuclear capacity they'd be using it since their Destruction is Assured anyway.

 

[Marduk]

Iran being cornered doesn't matter, insofar as they don't actually have the firepower to do anything existentially threatening to the species about it.

But they are building it.

That was already the status quo.

If it was, then it needs to be changed ASAP, rather than reinforced.
But we know it wasn't, if it was, then Cold War would have looked very differently than it did. It's well established that nuclear powers don't start throwing bombs if they merely aren't getting the results they want in a conventional war against another's proxy.
If that was the established custom, North Korea and North Vietnam would have "ground zero" instead of "north" in their names. But hey, i for one know that the deescalation cult bullshit is meant for naive westerners to believe and practice, not the other guys, they would laugh at you and send you to a mental asylum if you pushed it too hard on them.

 

[King Arts]

You mean the trheats he has been giving us for what...the last 30 years practically?

Ah yes, allow countries to have nukes and to fund the destruction of the west because a few lefties are in power and you would rather watch the world burn and turn into a authoritarian community Islamic shithole then except the fact that these countries are bad and the US is just going through a rough patch

What are you smoking? What does Islam or the destruction of the west have to do with nations getting nuclear weapons to deter invasion. Like the only reason to complain is if it’s a hostile enemy getting it or if you are an imperialist nation who doesn’t want to be prevented from having its military be rendered obsolete.

20 to 100 years is far better than "yesterday", leaves time for people to adapt. Yes, establishment did stupid by inaction, but tht's no reason to follow up with total retardation, as in doing same but worse.

What are you talking about? The 20 to 100 years was about the nations who pursue nukes. Because sanctions are temporary while having MAD deterrence is forever unless you go stupid like South Africa gadafi or Ukraine. Once you have nukes never give them up they will keep you safe.

 

[ATP]

I need you to understand this.

I am not Ukrianian I live in america, I have to live here so yes If I have leverage to get my primal needs met I'm going to use them. Time after time the democrats have never wasted a crisis now its time for us to do the same. Use the leverage while we still have it to secure what is rightfully ours.

You are right,for americans USA should be most importand,not Ukraine,Poland,Izrael or Taiwan.
Free Ukraine would not help you,if deep state made you slave.

How about now more Russia Black Sea fleet sunk, Poland going nuclear and becoming a European Texas, Finland and Sweden in NATO, a deterred Russia that is massively weakened for no gain on MOscow's part, and the knowledge that whatever sort term issues the US has now monetarily will be paid back in massive massive amounts of savings on not having to fight a war with Russia directly if Ukraine is forced to cede land now and tries again against NATO in a few years.

Add in the oil shale and off-shore reserves in Ukraine, which is part of why Russia occupied Crimea and the Donbass, and the US will also get a NATO partner that will be able to undercut Russian sales long into the future after the war is over and the new oil fields are established in the Black Sea off Crimea and in the Donbass.

Plus, we get a humiliated Russia and the end of Putin before the war is over; no way he survives the war, I expect the west will end up dealing with Medvedev as an assumptive successor. Prigozhin's mutiny/"March for Justice" showed how weak Russia is internally, while the US is now able to show all of our 20 year old Cold War gear stills works, and it's cheaper to send it to Ukraine to use than to store and then disassemble/scrap/explosively dispose of old gear/munitions.

Now add in Russia aiding Hamas and deciding to play fuck-fuck games with jihadi's again, jihadi's who took US hostages, and the Fuck Around is about to hit the Find Out at supersonic speeds if Tehran and Moscow don't alter course.

In Poland german coalition win,so we would not be Texas - they turn us again into poor country which citizen work on german plantations,becouse there is no work for them in Poland.

Sorry,we are not nation of heroes anymore,it is what you get when heroes in each generation are murdered or exiled,and traitors get everytching.

@Marduk ,Iran now is only power which stopping turks from genociding all armenians.Destroing Iran mean genocide Armenia now - why do you hate older christian nation in world so much ?

 

[Marduk]

What are you talking about? The 20 to 100 years was about the nations who pursue nukes. Because sanctions are temporary while having MAD deterrence is forever unless you go stupid like South Africa gadafi or Ukraine. Once you have nukes never give them up they will keep you safe.

Nuclear proliferation only happens when countries pursue nukes, until then, NPT mostly works, even if the "mostly" offends the sensibilities of some people on the internet.

MAD is actually assured in only some scenarios and nukes are only one component for it, also it is most definitely not forever considering some existing and near future technologies. Nuclear weapons without a delivery platform to get them where they will hurt the enemy and through his defenses are just a fancy suicide weapon. For example, USA could have a good chance of taking down some of the lesser nuclear powers without getting hit themselves, if its leadership was militant enough of course. A SSBN fleet is the golden standard of deterrence at the moment.

@Marduk ,Iran now is only power which stopping turks from genociding all armenians.Destroing Iran mean genocide Armenia now - why do you hate older christian nation in world so much ?

I don't give a fuck about your simping for Shia jihadists, Armenia's bad geopolitical choices and your paranoia about Turks and i most certainly won't structure my geopolitical sympathies around these things.

 

[ATP]

Nuclear proliferation only happens when countries pursue nukes, until then, NPT mostly works, even if the "mostly" offends the sensibilities of some people on the internet.

MAD is actually assured in only some scenarios and nukes are only one component for it, also it is most definitely not forever considering some existing and near future technologies. Nuclear weapons without a delivery platform to get them where they will hurt the enemy and through his defenses are just a fancy suicide weapon. For example, USA could have a good chance of taking down some of the lesser nuclear powers without getting hit themselves, if its leadership was militant enough of course. A SSBN fleet is the golden standard of deterrence at the moment.

I don't give a fuck about your simping for Shia jihadists, Armenia's bad geopolitical choices and your paranoia about Turks and i most certainly won't structure my geopolitical sympathies around these things.

You could name me whatever you like - but destroing Iran mean genocide of Armenia now.
And USA arleady removed christians from Iraq,and tried the same in Syria - so,no matter how you look at that,they are supporting enemies of christians there.

 

[Marduk]

You could name me whatever you like - but destroing Iran mean genocide of Armenia now.
And USA arleady removed christians from Iraq,and tried the same in Syria - so,no matter how you look at that,they are supporting enemies of christians there.

Why should we care about "Christians there" more than the "Christians there" care about "Christians here"?

 

[ATP]

Why should we care about "Christians there" more than the "Christians there" care about "Christians here"?

Becouse we are Christians.They are schizmatics,so they could made mistakes,but we are not.
And, about Iran building A bomb - so what? they would not use it,for the same reason why Pakistan do not use theirs - becouse they would burn if they do so.

 

[Marduk]

Becouse we are Christians.They are schizmatics,so they could made mistakes,but we are not.

Screw that, this is the logic that gets you "only" half of Africa as refugees. Their country, their problems.

And, about Iran building A bomb - so what? they would not use it,for the same reason why Pakistan do not use theirs - becouse they would burn if they do so.

In those cases the question is that no one knows how much they really mind burning.
Still, i think you may be in the wrong thread for this.

 

[ATP]

Screw that, this is the logic that gets you "only" half of Africa as refugees. Their country, their problems.

In those cases the question is that no one knows how much they really mind burning.
Still, i think you may be in the wrong thread for this.

1.Armenians are not refugees coming here,and never would be becouse turks would genocide them.
And only power which helped them so far is Iran.
Which treat christians well compared to other muslims.

Why attack only big muslim country which treat us in decent way?

2.Leaders never like burning,they send others to die.But,you are right,we should not talk about Hamas fighting their Mossad owners here.

 

[Marduk]

1.Armenians are not refugees coming here,and never would be becouse turks would genocide them.
And only power which helped them so far is Iran.
Which treat christians well compared to other muslims.

Why attack only big muslim country which treat us in decent way?

But... it doesn't treat them decently, however inconvenient it is to your pet theories.
It's helping them only because they are allied with Russia and against West and Turkey. If the geopolitics of it changed, they would kill them themselves.

 

[ATP]

But... it doesn't treat them decently, however inconvenient it is to your pet theories.
It's helping them only because they are allied with Russia and against West and Turkey. If the geopolitics of it changed, they would kill them themselves.

1.In all muslim countries muslim converts to Chrystianity are murdered.
2.Iran is taking some of laws which local chrstians had - but,turks are doing the same,and Saudis murder all christians.
Iran is bad - but still better then all other muslim countries except maybe Jordania and Marocco.

But,this is still not thread for that,or for Mossad toys war.

 

[AmosTrask]

Jesu Cristo! The Russians are enacting another Pogrom! WTF! Here's an youtube friendly video. I'm not posting the violent ones the Russians are streaming. They're using Muslim mobs to attack Jewish communities.

VIOLENCE ERUPTS AGAINST THE JEWISH IN SOUTHERN RUSSIA 29.10.2023. POGROMS ARE BACK.

JEWISH MANHUNT IS IS HAPPENING IN DAGESTAN RIGHT NOW. I AM JEWISH TODAY. I STAND WITH THE JEWS OF RUSSIA. MAY GOD HELP YOU, BROTHERS AND SISTERS. ð´ buymea...

www.youtube.com

 

[Scottty]

Jesu Cristo! The Russians are enacting another Pogrom! WTF! Here's an youtube friendly video. I'm not posting the violent ones the Russians are streaming. They're using Muslim mobs to attack Jewish communities.

VIOLENCE ERUPTS AGAINST THE JEWISH IN SOUTHERN RUSSIA 29.10.2023. POGROMS ARE BACK.

JEWISH MANHUNT IS IS HAPPENING IN DAGESTAN RIGHT NOW. I AM JEWISH TODAY. I STAND WITH THE JEWS OF RUSSIA. MAY GOD HELP YOU, BROTHERS AND SISTERS. ð´ buymea...

www.youtube.com

Why is the picture in black-and-white?

EDIT: I see it's now been replaced by a colour one. Hmmm.

 

[Wargamer08]

Jesu Cristo! The Russians are enacting another Pogrom! WTF! Here's an youtube friendly video. I'm not posting the violent ones the Russians are streaming. They're using Muslim mobs to attack Jewish communities.

VIOLENCE ERUPTS AGAINST THE JEWISH IN SOUTHERN RUSSIA 29.10.2023. POGROMS ARE BACK.

JEWISH MANHUNT IS IS HAPPENING IN DAGESTAN RIGHT NOW. I AM JEWISH TODAY. I STAND WITH THE JEWS OF RUSSIA. MAY GOD HELP YOU, BROTHERS AND SISTERS. ð´ buymea...

www.youtube.com

From what I recall, everyone was arrested by Russian police. All those rioters are likely to find themselves storming some Ukrainian minefield. Which makes the Russian response to pro Palestine riots/rallies the harshest yet.

 

[ATP]

Jesu Cristo! The Russians are enacting another Pogrom! WTF! Here's an youtube friendly video. I'm not posting the violent ones the Russians are streaming. They're using Muslim mobs to attack Jewish communities.

VIOLENCE ERUPTS AGAINST THE JEWISH IN SOUTHERN RUSSIA 29.10.2023. POGROMS ARE BACK.

JEWISH MANHUNT IS IS HAPPENING IN DAGESTAN RIGHT NOW. I AM JEWISH TODAY. I STAND WITH THE JEWS OF RUSSIA. MAY GOD HELP YOU, BROTHERS AND SISTERS. ð´ buymea...

www.youtube.com

Well,they must have their own reasons,kgb do not made pogroms for fun.They are not idiots.

From what I recall, everyone was arrested by Russian police. All those rioters are likely to find themselves storming some Ukrainian minefield. Which makes the Russian response to pro Palestine riots/rallies the harshest yet.

And that explain everytching.Jews are frightened and would do everytching to survive.Most aggresive muslims would join putin army.Two birds with one stone.KGB is full of smart people,it seems.

 

[Bacle]

Inside Volodymyr Zelensky’s Struggle to Keep Ukraine in the Fight

“Nobody believes in our victory like I do. Nobody,” Zelensky told TIME in an interview after his trip to Washington, D.C.

time.com

The slow rolling of aid to Ukraine has left Zelensky and many Ukrainians feeling betrayed by the west and their allies.

As they have debated the future of the war, one issue has remained taboo: the possibility of negotiating a peace deal with the Russians. Judging by recent surveys, most Ukrainians would reject such a move, especially if it entailed the loss of any occupied territory.

Zelensky remains dead set against even a temporary truce. "For us it would mean leaving this wound open for future generations," the President tells me. "Maybe it will calm some people down inside our country, and outside, at least those who want to wrap things up at any price. But for me, that's a problem, because we are left with this explosive force. We only delay its detonation."

The political and social will to win is still present in Ukraine, perhaps even having hardened after all the things Russia has done, so trying to sell any agreement to the Ukrainian people that allows Russia to keep the temporarily occupied areas is probably not going to fly.

As well, Ukraine is shifting to more and more domestic production or arms, so they are not dependent on the west for as much, and deep strikes to degrade Russian forces.

Zelensky describes it as a war of wills, and he fears that if the Russians are not stopped in Ukraine, the fighting will spread beyond its borders. "I've long lived with this fear," he says. "A third world war could start in Ukraine, continue in Israel, and move on from there to Asia, and then explode somewhere else." That was his message in Washington: Help Ukraine stop the war before it spreads, and before it's too late. He worries his audience has stopped paying attention.

Zelensky is very clear eyed that if Ukraine is forced to capitulate to Russia, it will not actually stop the fighting, and may cause conflict to spread even further.

 

[King Arts]

Inside Volodymyr Zelensky’s Struggle to Keep Ukraine in the Fight

“Nobody believes in our victory like I do. Nobody,” Zelensky told TIME in an interview after his trip to Washington, D.C.

time.com

The slow rolling of aid to Ukraine has left Zelensky and many Ukrainians feeling betrayed by the west and their allies.



The political and social will to win is still present in Ukraine, perhaps even having hardened after all the things Russia has done, so trying to sell any agreement to the Ukrainian people that allows Russia to keep the temporarily occupied areas is probably not going to fly.

As well, Ukraine is shifting to more and more domestic production or arms, so they are not dependent on the west for as much, and deep strikes to degrade Russian.



Zelensky is very clear eyed that if Ukraine is forced to capitulate to Russia, it will not actually stop the fighting, and may cause conflict to spread even further.

You gonna felate the piano penis player. But duh. Obviously interests are above principles in national geopolitics.

Also no Zelensky is not clear eyed, he is saying what he thinks is best to get more funds to help Ukraine survive against Russia. The situation in the Middle East is different than in Eastern Europe. The only way any of these conflicts becomes a world war is if the US gets involved OR if Russia goes into a NATO nation.

 

[Marduk]

You gonna felate the piano penis player. But duh. Obviously interests are above principles in national geopolitics.

Also no Zelensky is not clear eyed, he is saying what he thinks is best to get more funds to help Ukraine survive against Russia. The situation in the Middle East is different than in Eastern Europe. The only way any of these conflicts becomes a world war is if the US gets involved OR if Russia goes into a NATO nation.

It is certainly different, but it is also certainly interconnected, through the Russia-Iran alliance, Iran's imperial projects in ME, and China relations with Russia and Iran.