Russian-Ukrainian-Polish Eternal Friendship Thread

Marduk

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Dude, the 60% approval is what I got of one of your links.And the Pole/EU approval was about 40% in the same one.
The poll’s main findings:

  • 43% of Belarusians consider Russia to be the greatest threat to the territorial integrity of Belarus, the highest figure among the countries surveyed (21% of respondents consider Poland’s policy a threat, 20% that of Lithuania, and 18% that of other countries). Paradoxically, this does not affect the very positive perception of Russia (86% of respondents) and the Russian people (96%), or of Vladimir Putin himself, who enjoys the support of 60% of Belarusians. However, the results above may indicate that the perception of Russia in the eyes of the Belarusian people is gradually changing.
  • 74% of Belarusians declared a positive attitude towards Poland, and 83% towards the Polish people. 19% of Belarusians expressed a dislike of Poland, and 11% of Poles. The respondents like the Russians, Germans and Ukrainians more (but not the Ukrainian state); Lithuanians less so. Most respondents (52%) view Poland’s policy towards Belarus during the current political crisis in a positive light, while 27% of respondents evaluate it negatively.
  • 74% of Belarusians declared a positive attitude towards Poland, and 83% towards the Polish people.
Why do you have to waste my time like this?
To add to my point, 52% agree with Poland's current policy towards Belarus, which as we agree is very hostile to Lukashenko.
There is a huge difference between liking some group as a people and agreeing and wanting to be aligned with their country.
Yes, there is, but not huge. The country got 74%, the people got 83% .
Ask George F. Kennan what his views on the Russian people and the Soviet State were, for example. ;)
Sorry, he's not my favorite US diplomat. He may be yours, on virtue of possibly agreeing with you, but that has no bearing on my view of the matter.


You are the one trying to build strawmen here, bub, you know and I do that the EFTA was a very different beast from the current EU and that the current EU is not NATO, and that the EFTA countries were not in a free trade zone with the USSR.
Go read what I actually wrote about trade, although you are probably just disregarding it because you think that this childish sand throwing and brevado will get you away with it.
Your selective amnesia is a joke.




Pole, for the umpteenth time, we are talking about the Free Trade Zone Between Russia and Ukraine stop strawmaning.
You have claimed the issue was that association agreement between Ukraine and EU would break customs-free trade of Ukraine-Russia. Yes, you specifically used the term "customs-free trade", and moreover, you suggested that this is something a lot of Russia's industry is dependent on, even though it didn't exist.

We have gone over this, again, and again, and again.
The association agreement would have meant no customs-free trade with Russia, which would have sunk a lot of their eastern industries and interfered with cultural ties and the like.
Then came in the likes of Right sector and the whole Euromeidan putch.
We are going in circles here, read what is already posted in the thread before you parrot the same old, tired nonsense.
"The association agreement would have meant no customs-free trade with Russia, which would have sunk a lot of their eastern industries and interfered with cultural ties and the like."
The free trade zone you have linked is not a customs union.
In fact a country can easily be in two free trade agreements with others that don't have a free trade agreement with each other. Take Mexico - its in USMCA, previously NAFTA, with USA, and has a free trade agreement with EU at the same time, even though EU has no free trade agreement with USA.





How do you "know" any of that exactly?
Did Smegly or Brezinsky's ghosts tell you?

If the Germans thought that they could get gas cheaper and were that worried about dependence on Russia, do you think that they wouldn't have built a bunch of LNG terminals already?

Do you really think you are smarter than the whole German business lobby, and all of the people working for, say Krupp, and Volkswagen and BASF and dozens more manufacturing giants?
Those are businesses. Looking at things from the perspective of strategic national security and foreign relations is not their job. Looking at yearly profits and quarterly reports is.
Yes, Russia can sell Germany gas a bit cheaper than other sources. But by miracle of green idiocy despite that Germany has one of highest electricity prices in whole Europe. If Germany cast off green idiocy, it could have cheaper electricity even without Russian gas.

Russia doesn't even need nordstream, they will soon have 3 pipelines to China and numerous LNG facilities operating in Asia, NS2 was something the Krauts asked for it.
E.ON, Germany's biggest energy company was the one pushing it because it would be the cheapest possible way to get gas and they stated that Europe would need more and more gas in the future.
Of course Russia doesn't need Nordstream 2, Russia wants Nordstream 2. An important distinction but for this question irrelevant. It can take political benefits from having this want. Which is why Gazprom funded it, rather than telling Germans to pay for it, like they partially did for Nord Stream 1.
Nord Stream AG is a consortium for construction and operation of the Nord Stream (Nord Stream 1) submarine pipeline between Vyborg in Russia and Greifswald in Germany. The consortium was incorporated in Zug, Switzerland, on 30 November 2005. The original name of company was the North European Gas Pipeline Company. The company was renamed to Nord Stream AG on 4 October 2006. Its sister company Nord Stream 2 AG has the same headquarters and management but it is wholly owned by Gazprom.


E.ON, Germany's biggest energy company was the one pushing it because it would be the cheapest possible way to get gas and they stated that Europe would need more and more gas in the future.
Well if they keep listening to the Greens instead of building NPPs sure they will.
As for needing more gas, is that why the existing pipelines are sometimes running at less than half empty now?
 
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Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
So by your logic Putin should be made Bog-Tzar of Belarus because he has a high approval rating?
Again, quoting your stats - 60%, that Russia and Balarus should do the whole Anschluss thing because Russia and the Russians have higher approval than you Poles.
96% of Belarussians like Russians, 86% like Russia.

Glazyev made the same allegations at the Yalta European Strategy summit in September last year: an EU-Ukraine free-trade deal would make Ukraine’s industry uncompetitive; it would fundamentally alter Ukraine’s trade with Russia, forcing Russia to raise tariffs to defend itself against the new economic reality to the west.

The Russians saw a danger for their economy, hence they decided to cut Ukrainian access if the Ukrainians signed an association agreement with the EU.
 

Marduk

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So by your logic Putin should be made Bog-Tzar of Belarus because he has a high approval rating?
Again, quoting your stats - 60%, that Russia and Balarus should do the whole Anschluss thing because Russia and the Russians have higher approval than you Poles.
96% of Belarussians like Russians, 86% like Russia.
What my logic?
Seems like out of the 3 Putin has lowest approval at 60%.

The Russians saw a danger for their economy, hence they decided to cut Ukrainian access if the Ukrainians signed an association agreement with the EU.
Again, Russia should mind its own business, when it starts to "care" about Ukraine's economy it cares so much that it hits Ukraine a fucking embargo. "For its own good", right?
And that's before Ukrainians signed an association agreement with the EU. Without even stating that as a reason. Guess FSB should watch out for the time police...
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
What my logic?
Seems like out of the 3 Putin has lowest approval at 60%.
It is enough to make him President in most countries.

So, does 96% approval for Russians mean that they should do the whole Anschluss thing?

Cause you were on and on about Poland's measly 74% or whatever approval rating, implying that somehow that makes the balarussians a potential adjunct to your own country.


Again, Russia should mind its own business, when it starts to "care" about Ukraine's economy it cares so much that it hits Ukraine a fucking embargo. "For its own good", right?
And that's before Ukrainians signed an association agreement with the EU. Without even stating that as a reason. Guess FSB should watch out for the time police...
They saw the association agreement as a threat to their own economy, so they moved to limit Ukraine's access to it and ultimately dissolved their free-trade zone, as was their right to do so.

Russia has valid security and commercial interests in its near abroad as well as the former USSR, no lesser person than George F. Kennan, who also saw NATO expansion as a bad idea, said this.

So are all the Warhawks in here ready to admit they were wrong now that the Russian invasion has failed to happen? Remember this, everyone else, when the same tired voices start trying to sell you on the "Russian threat" again.

I doubt it, they all have a bunch of axes to grind, ranging from Muh Freedom neolib kool-aid to Poland's nation-level inferiority complex and obsession with Russia.

I wonder what the Krauts and the Frogs will do for the Baltics and Poland after they played into all this shenanigans. ;)
 
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Marduk

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It is enough to make him President in most countries.

So, does 96% approval for Russians mean that they should do the whole Anschluss thing?
As soon as Russians become a country's government :D
Obviously a large number of them has to approve of both Russia and Poland because there can't be more than 100% of people yet both have over 50%. Conclusion being, Belarussians are fine being in the middle i guess.

Cause you were on and on about Poland's measly 74% or whatever approval rating, implying that somehow that makes the balarussians a potential adjunct to your own country.
Its not like Poland is pushing a Union State on them.
Someone else is though...

They saw the association agreement as a threat to their own economy, so they moved to limit Ukraine's access to it and ultimately dissolved their free-trade zone, as was their right to do so.
Ah, so it wasn't for Ukraine's good after all, duh.
Buck back to the point, you said it was about a customs union, which turned out Ukraine was never a part of.
And again, an embargo goes well beyond not having/cancelling a free trade agreement.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
As soon as Russians become a country's government :D
Consultancy firms can have a seat on corporate boards, so I see no reason why the governance of one country can not be delegated to that of the electorate of another, with the second country just appointing a government for the first. :p :ROFLMAO: ;)

Obviously a large number of them has to approve of both Russia and Poland because there can't be more than 100% of people yet both have over 50%. Conclusion being, Belarussians are fine being in the middle i guess.

Its not like Poland is pushing a Union State on them.
Someone else is though...
No, the west was just pushing a Color Revolution on them and funding their government's opposition.
Also, since Belarussians like Russians better than they do Poles then it is obvious who they will choose.

Ah, so it wasn't for Ukraine's good after all, duh.
Buck back to the point, you said it was about a customs union, which turned out Ukraine was never a part of.
And again, an embargo goes well beyond not having/cancelling a free trade agreement.
Who said anything about Russia prioritizing Ukraine's good over its own exactly?

I certainly didn't.

However when two countries have had close economic relations for so long and one (Ukraine) does something to jeopardize them then the other party will probably do something to counter whatever happened.

What the Russians have been telling them is not, "Oh, we love you so much, do this for your own good" but rather, "listen up, what you are doing is potentially bad for us, so if you want to continue on this path you are losing us as a client, so long and thanks for the fish."

How would you react if tomorrow your Prime Minister/President/head Voevoda or whatever decides that Poland should be more closely aligned with the EU, stop hating on Russia and buy Russian gas and German solar panels in bulk to counter climate change and further the cause of the EU?
Oh, and all those bad things the USSR and the Tzarist Russian Empire did, let us forget them, that won't be nice.

Traitor, right?

Well, the situation with Russia and Ukraine is the same, the Russian government is supposed to keep the interests of Russia and the Russian electorate in mind first and foremost.

Putin's tough stance on Ukraine actually boosted his approval because the Russians see ethnically Russian people in Eastern Ukraine being killed and terrorized by banderites.

The Russians don't want to take over or invade Ukraine IMO, although an Ukrainian peaceful divorce will probably be the best outcome for all concerned parties.

You think that Poland would be in a different position if it had one of its major trading partners that also has a large Polish minority within its territory suddenly distance itself from Poland and go into the hands of the "Other Camp", and that furthermore a large minority of Poland-phobes in that country gets closer to power?
Let us put some names here, we can have some of the Balts as the buffer state, some Eastern Slavic military and economic alliance as the opposing force etc.


I doubt you'd do things differently.
 
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Marduk

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No, the west was just pushing a Color Revolution on them and funding their government's opposition.
And on top of that we somehow got 52% to approve of that...
Also, since Belarussians like Russians better than they do Poles then it is obvious who they will choose.
Russians =/= Russian government.
Who said anything about Russia prioritizing Ukraine's good over its own exactly?

I certainly didn't.

However when two countries have had close economic relations for so long and one (Ukraine) does something to jeopardize them then the other party will probably do something to counter whatever happened.
Breaking those ties suddenly to a degree normally reserved to outright hostile countries (like USA to Iran and North Korea) is a very silly and counterproductive way to do that.
One that leads the other side to a conclusion that those who did it cannot be relied upon as a trade partner. AKA what Ukraine did afterwards.

What the Russians have been telling them is not, "Oh, we love you so much, do this for your own good" but rather, "listen up, what you are doing is potentially bad for us, so if you want to continue on this path you are losing us as a client, so long and thanks for the fish."
Well then, seems like at least we are beginning to see things the same way. Yes, Russia under Putin seems to apply a policy of "we trust only countries that we control directly, by proxy, or through fear of what we could do to them with impunity."
Which does explain the huge problem it has with usual targets of this policy joining NATO - the security assurances that come with it weaken with the fear part meaningfully, at least on military side. Lack of energy dependence on Russia, EU membership, and to lesser degree trade deals even, do the same to the threat of surprise trade embargoes and energy cuts.
What is surprising is that the negative attitudes to this policy from countries targeted by it are surprising to anyone.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
And on top of that we somehow got 52% to approve of that...
Obviously they are sick and tired of Lukashenko's buffoonery.

Russians =/= Russian government.
Yes, but:
1) It is the representative of those people.
2) Anschluss-style events happen between two nations, not two governments and happen because of a cultural connection.

Breaking those ties suddenly to a degree normally reserved to outright hostile countries (like USA to Iran and North Korea) is a very silly and counterproductive way to do that.
One that leads the other side to a conclusion that those who did it cannot be relied upon as a trade partner. AKA what Ukraine did afterwards.
The Russians gave the Ukrainains their views on numerous occasions before that, and the free trade zone was dissolved in 2015, not immediately.
Also, the whole Insurrection thing might have made them work slightly faster.


Well then, seems like at least we are beginning to see things the same way. Yes, Russia under Putin seems to apply a policy of "we trust only countries that we control directly, by proxy, or through fear of what we could do to them with impunity."
Which does explain the huge problem it has with usual targets of this policy joining NATO - the security assurances that come with it weaken with the fear part meaningfully, at least on military side. Lack of energy dependence on Russia, EU membership, and to lesser degree trade deals even, do the same to the threat of surprise trade embargoes and energy cuts.
What is surprising is that the negative attitudes to this policy from countries targeted by it are surprising to anyone.
As I have stated before I am just fine with having diversification of energy supplies within the EU, we should have built a lot more new nuclear power plants as well as a few backup LNG terminals to get gas from alternate suppliers, and bigger stockpiles, too.

Russia has had close ties with Vietnam, India, Cuba, Italy, Serbia and Mongolia, just to name a few.
The Serbs love them, even though Yugoslavia and the USSR were rivals.

I do not recall them invading or arm-twisting those countries into compliance.

My own country has had a checkered history with the Russians, sometimes they helped us, sometimes they fucked us over, but the dire and brimstone you describe was never there.

Russia, while it will act in its own interests and guard its backyard, like any great power, is not expansionist.
It has legitimate economic interests in those areas, often there are Russian minorities living there, and cultural ties as well as stuff of strategic military importance.

Frankly though, I see Russia's interests in Europe as secondary, with Asia being their main focus nowadays.

TL;DR
Russia does what the USA does, what the UK does, what France does when their interests in their near-abroad are threatened.

Welcome to the 19th century, actually to every century besides the 20th, and even there the Realpolitik paradigm still worked to a far greater degree than Castle in the Sky ideologues would admit.
This is how Rome dealt with Carthage, this is how Byzantium dealt with the Sassanids, this is how the Arabs on the Iberian peninsula dealt with their neighbors, this is how the city states of Italy during Maciavelli's lifetime dealt with each-other.
This has happened before, it will happen again!

Go read some Kissinger, and Kennan and Mearsheimer.
 

Marduk

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Obviously they are sick and tired of Lukashenko's buffoonery.


Yes, but:
1) It is the representative of those people.
2) Anschluss-style events happen between two nations, not two governments and happen because of a cultural connection.
Oh but it absolutely takes a government's decision and ambition. Especially with the name's genesis.
The Russians gave the Ukrainains their views on numerous occasions before that, and the free trade zone was dissolved in 2015, not immediately.
Also, the whole Insurrection thing might have made them work slightly faster.
And here we have that problem again... Russia gives its views, Russia makes demands, Russia explains its needs. But as we see now with the diplomacy with NATO, that's a way of doing diplomacy that may be accepted by weak subjects, but other than that it doesn't get one friends nor favors.


As I have stated before I am just fine with having diversification of energy supplies within the EU, we should have built a lot more new nuclear power plants as well as a few backup LNG terminals to get gas from alternate suppliers, and bigger stockpiles, too.
We can agree to that point

Russia has had close ties with Vietnam, India, Cuba, Italy, Serbia and Mongolia, just to name a few.
The Serbs love them, even though Yugoslavia and the USSR were rivals.

I do not recall them invading or arm-twisting those countries into compliance.
Welp, getting along with more distant major powers has its advantages over close ones, both sides know that the major power in question has to worry about overstretch, and the local major powers are always there as an alternative, so they can't push their influence too hard or else, that is pretty universal. Its a similar deal with Poland's favored relations with USA. In case of Cuba and Serbia though that's outright dependence, while in case of Mongolia and Vietnam China serves as massive counterbalance that also plays hard.

My own country has had a checkered history with the Russians, sometimes they helped us, sometimes they fucked us over, but the dire and brimstone you describe was never there.
As i said, the extra distance makes the influence more dependent on willing cooperation rather than mere alternative to a relationship based on threat or application of troops on the border. Poland, Ukraine, Baltics have Russia right on their borders and both sides knowing that while negotiating.

Russia, while it will act in its own interests and guard its backyard, like any great power, is not expansionist.
Yeah, sure, Russia doesn't see itself as expansionist, Russia only thinks its taking what it rightfully owns anyway.

Ironically, Russia suffers from exactly the problem you accuse Poland of. Projection much?
Russia is no longer a great power, its a former great power. Much like France, UK and Germany, which try to cheat their fate by combining their leftover power in form of EU, with... limited success at best.
Turkey, Spain, Poland, Japan and Italy are former great powers too, some for longer, some more accepting of that. But out of all the aforementioned, Russia goes the furthest in acting like the most arrogant of great powers did in their golden age. To a point where even the superpowers of today, USA and China, look subtle and reasonable in their moves, despite possibly having the weight to back such behavior if they wanted to.


It has legitimate economic interests in those areas, often there are Russian minorities living there, and cultural ties as well as stuff of strategic military importance.
By that logic Spain, France and UK have minorities, cultural ties and strategic interests all over the whole globe. Consider how much more reserved they are about acting on this than Russia.
Russia would be smart to treat the slipping away of their imperial possessions the same way UK dealt with losing places like India and Hongkong.
Article by Vladimir Putin ”On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians“
Frankly though, I see Russia's interests in Europe as secondary, with Asia being their main focus nowadays.
It should be. But it isn't, at least for now, and for a good reason - as i explained before, China is not a good ally, but it would be a terrible enemy for Russia, while for China, in status quo, Russia is perfectly fine by merely being a loud distraction to USA.
Europe would be a ok ally to have for Russia, but its a dream rival, onw who barely even fights back, and even then, very lazily.

Article by Vladimir Putin ”On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians“
TL;DR
Russia does what the USA does, what the UK does, what France does when their interests in their near-abroad are threatened.

Welcome to the 19th century, actually to every century besides the 20th, and even there the Realpolitik paradigm still worked to a far greater degree than Castle in the Sky ideologues would admit.
You mean what they used to do in 19th century, when they could get away with it. And USA maybe could get away with now, but doesn't feel like trying because that would be a waste.
Newsflash, its not 19th century, the world is smaller, with less space for great powers to have their domains, and Russia is now a country with economy in the same league as Italy, Turkey or Brazil, definitely not countries famous for issuing outright demands to superpowers and getting what they want. What Russia has over those are disproportionally large compared to economy remnants of military power inherited from Soviet times and lots of ambition. Unfortunately for Russia, a certain superpower has an annoying habit of getting in the way of Russia's attempts to use these to try become a great power again, causing great frustration and resentment towards it.
Russia would need the economy of Japan to back its ambitions properly. Quite fittingly Japan is one of the few countries that could probably get away with playing a great power, if it had the domestic and foreign policy setup to do so, but due to post-WW2 order and still lasting US alliance it has neither need nor will to do that.

This is how Rome dealt with Carthage, this is how Byzantium dealt with the Sassanids, this is how the Arabs on the Iberian peninsula dealt with their neighbors, this is how the city states of Italy during Maciavelli's lifetime dealt with each-other.
This has happened before, it will happen again!
Article by Vladimir Putin ”On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians“
Go read some Kissinger, and Kennan and Mearsheimer.
Consider the examples you gave here... That's how countries deal with their mortal enemies, plain and simple.
Don't be surprised they fight back, and try to summon a bigger fish if they can't.
 
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Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
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Now that is interesting...it's probably only single lane, or narrow double at most, but that is still a new ground link across a river in an area that is rather contentious at the moment. And it's not connected to any existing road system of civil upgrade project, from the look of it.

I really am hoping no one does anything rash; if Russia does do something stupid, via Belarus, the fighting won't end in Ukraine, and everyone can see that.

I also hope no one does anything stupid like trying to bomb it pre-emptively, either; that is sucker bait, and Belarus is absolutely going to bring those departing Russian troops back to the field if someone hits it out of paranoia.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Good job dude, maybe, possibly, etc wishful thinking.
60% of Belarussians are pro-Russian, which is more than enough of a majority to keep then in an alliance.

The younger generations are more pro-EU:

 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
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So are all the Warhawks in here ready to admit they were wrong now that the Russian invasion has failed to happen? Remember this, everyone else, when the same tired voices start trying to sell you on the "Russian threat" again.

Who are you even talking about... well besides Zachowon? Like no one besides him has even been clearly advocating War with United States and Russia over Ukraine in this thread AFAIK. Most of these "Warhawks" that are being strawmanned about endlessly in this thread are just critical of Putin's actions in regards to this current situation.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
Did I happen to mention that I have a master’s degree in Central and Eastern European Studies? That I have been pulling much of this from memory because I have an in-depth familiarity with the region, much more than most Americans? And that I’ve been watching this part of the world rather closely for the past 15 years?

No? Well, sunshine, I do. So saying “I’m just following what the media tells me” and going on about different complaints without responding to my actual points even though you asked why America has issues with Russia and says what it does isn’t going to fly with me.

da7.jpg





My solution

"fuck Russia, fuck the Ukraine, fuck Europe"

Ignore it all.

The true enemies are Beijing and the Banks the MOSS rule. Plus we have way too many domestic enemies that need to face prison time and expulsion from the government before we can waste time making war against a bunch of Near eastern barbarians on behalf of a bunch of ingrate Slavs who don't give a shit about us and haven't made a meaningful contribution to history since...well ever really.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
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That invalidates any views or insights you have on the region as the glow in the dark/academic apparatus of the West has a vested interest in insisting we hate and make war upon a nation that has become the sick man of the old world and should be allowed to fade into irrelevancy and collapse or reorganize as it sees fit.

You and luminescent intellectuals like you are part of the problem, not the solution.



My solution

"fuck Russia, fuck the Ukraine, fuck Europe"

Ignore it all.

The true enemies are Beijing and the Banks the MOSS rule. Plus we have way too many domestic enemies that need to face prison time and expulsion from the government before we can waste time making war against a bunch of Near eastern barbarians on behalf of a bunch of ingrate Slavs who don't give a shit about us and haven't made a meaningful contribution to history since...well ever really.
China and Russia are both on our radars.
We are looking at China heavily
 

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