SlavWhank 101

[Agent23]

Ok, let us take a break from the happening right now, you all know what it is, and do some ASB-fueled discussions about what might have been if...
The main idea of this thread is to create a Slavic superpower that is either dominant globally or in Eurasia.
Slavs discover and colonize the Americas is also an option.
Other victory conditions should include religious autonomy, this can mean an autonomous Orthodox patriarchy or a fully captive Papacy
where only the Slav-approved candidates get to become Pope.
In any case the Orthodox-Catholic-Uniat confrontation will have to be quashed, and a form of Caesaropopism should exist.
Protestantism welcome, too.
Some form of more democratic governance, maybe in line with the original Slavic tribal warrior democracy that was described by Byzantine historians in the 5th century, preferably without a magnate/bolyar oligarchy.
NO SERFDOM!

By the mid-20th century the place should have a population of at least 600 million, cover a significant portion of Eurasia, read larger than the USSR, and be a massive technological and industrial powerhouse, seen by all those that surround it as "civilized" and prosperous, with a high living standard and a high GDP per capita, and a constitution enshrining personal rights, freedoms and responsibilities, but totalitarian pan-slavism is fine too.
It will probably need to have a confederate/dualist monarchy or republic/federal structure.

Option 1) The First Bulgarian Empire does not get into a huge, pointless spat with the Byzantines at the start of the 11th century, and focuses on Christianizing and bringing the slavonic rite to the Serbian, Montenegran and other Slavic tribes to the North, this removes the Rus and the modern Serbs from the picture, and eventually paves the way for further expansion into Siberia, perhaps some form of alliance with the Poles and a form of dualist state like the Polish-Lithuanina commonwealth, with more religious tolerance and an adoption of Cyrillic and orthodoxy.

Option 2) Hugely successful Cossack republic forming in what is modern-day Ukraine and Belarus gobbling up both Poland and Russia and making the United Slav States of Yurup.

Option 3) Something related to the Rus or Russia being hugely more successful.

Option 4) Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth something-something.Not familiar with their history, so somebody else should suggest how this can happen. @Batrix2070 @ATP feel free to add Polishwhank here.

 

[WolfBear]

Have the Russian Empire somehow avoid revolution in the middle of World War I, permanently keep all of its pre-WWI territory, expand a bit further, and gradually liberalize. Also, have this Russia receive a lot of immigration from other parts of the world, such as China, Korea, Vietnam, India, et cetera.

This Russia would require a federal structure in the long(er)-run in order to please everyone. Maybe something like this? :

The Russian Empire Administrative Map by TheFalconette on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

 

[Agent23]

Have the Russian Empire somehow avoid revolution in the middle of World War I, permanently keep all of its pre-WWI territory, expand a bit further, and gradually liberalize. Also, have this Russia receive a lot of immigration from other parts of the world, such as China, Korea, Vietnam, India, et cetera.

This Russia would require a federal structure in the long(er)-run in order to please everyone. Maybe something like this? :

Yeah, there are a few problems with all this, starting with the fact that modern Ukraine probably would not exist as a sperate entity, since the current territory was split into Polish, Hungarian and Russian parts.
Maybe Poland will have a semi-autonomous territory called Galicia, with its own Galician language.

 

[WolfBear]

Yeah, there are a few problems with all this, starting with the fact that modern Ukraine probably would not exist as a sperate entity, since the current territory was split into Polish, Hungarian and Russian parts.
Maybe Poland will have a semi-autonomous territory called Galicia, with its own Galician language.

Even if one limits oneself to the Russian parts of Ukraine in 1917, the people there still voted for Ukrainian nationalists even during this time:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917_Russian_Constituent_Assembly_election

 

[Agent23]

Even if one limits oneself to the Russian parts of Ukraine in 1917, the people there still voted for Ukrainian nationalists even during this time:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917_Russian_Constituent_Assembly_election

Without WWI that will probably be greatly subdued, since the central powers were pushing heavily for Ukrainification, also there is the factor of he might be a commie sob but he is our commie sob.

It would have been interesting to see this happen earlier, say just before the war.

 

[WolfBear]

Without WWI that will probably be greatly subdued, since the central powers were pushing heavily for Ukrainification, also there is the factor of he might be a commie sob but he is our commie sob.

It would have been interesting to see this happen earlier, say just before the war.

To see what happen earlier?

And FWIW, AFAIK, the parts of Ukraine who voted for Ukrainian nationalist parties in 1917 weren't ever actually under CP rule when this happened. They only came under CP rule in 1918.

 

[Agent23]

To see what happen earlier?

And FWIW, AFAIK, the parts of Ukraine who voted for Ukrainian nationalist parties in 1917 weren't ever actually under CP rule when this happened. They only came under CP rule in 1918.

You don't need to rule an area to propagandize it.

 

[WolfBear]

You don't need to rule an area to propagandize it.

Well, FWIW, Pyotr Durnovo worried about the spread of Ukrainian nationalism into Russian-controlled Ukraine as early as February 1914:

https://novaonline.nvcc.edu/eli/evans/his242/documents/Durnovo.pdf

Exactly the same thing applies to Galicia. It is obviously disadvantageous to us to annex, in the
interests of national sentimentalism, a territory that has lost every vital connection with our fatherland.
For, together with a negligible handful of Galicians, Russian in spirit, how many Poles, Jews, and
Ukrainian Uniates we would receive! The so-called Ukrainian, or Mazeppist, movement is not a menace
to us at present, but we should not enable it to expand by increasing the number of turbulent Ukrainian
elements, for in this movement there undoubtedly lies the seed of an extremely dangerous Little
Russian separatism which, under favorable conditions, may assume quite unexpected proportions.

 

[History Learner]

Hitler, for whatever reason, chooses to continue with the Mediterranean focus into 1941 and thus delays Barbarossa until 1942. Malta falls and the Axis armies reach Cairo by the time the Germans are ready to attack the USSR. Stalin attempts to pre-empt the invasion with a spoiling attack of his own, but the poor state of the VVS and German operational experience enable them to defeat this before assuming the advance into the USSR. However, the Soviet mobilization structure is in full effect and comparatively the average Soviet soldier is better equipped than IOTL 1941; Barbarossa stalls out before both Smolensk and Kiev.

Soviet counter-attacks come that Winter, taking the shape of breaking through well managed Germans defenses at great cost in Belarus while the overstretched Army Group South is pushed back with greater success in the South. The Spring thaw brings things to a close on most axis, but a prolonged campaign for Moldova begins to take shape as the Red Army attempts to batter its way into the Balkans. An effort to advance into Poland in May is thwarted with heavy casualties, allowing the Wehrmacht to temporarily retake Lvov and other extreme Western Ukrainian cities before the Soviet summer offensives successfully eject them, as well as finish liberating Belarus. The fall and early winter see the Red Army finally secure Moldova and begin a prolonged campaign to take the Baltics. Spring 1944 sees the Baltics taken and the Red Army break into the Balkans, securing Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria and Yugoslavia, while their Summer offensive in Poland carries them to the Oder line. Germany collapses and surrenders in early 1945, as the Red Army takes Berlin in January.

The end result of this shorter Eastern Front and less deep German advance is to halve Soviet losses in WWII, and largely focus them on Western Ukraine, Belarus and the Baltics. Moldova, which here is annexed too as IOTL, has been depopulated as well, both by heavy fighting, evacuations and forced relocations. In this ATL, the Baltics and Moldova both become majority Slavic, in particular Russian, while Belarus becomes one third ethnic Russian and the depopulation of Western Ukraine serves to deeply Russify that country. The lesser demographic toll of WWII also means Soviet colonization efforts in Central Asia also pay off, turning the SSRs there either into Russian/Slavic majorities or pluralities. The only SSRs that don't become majority or plurality Slavic are the Caucasus, which still feature large minorities.

 

[WolfBear]

Hitler, for whatever reason, chooses to continue with the Mediterranean focus into 1941 and thus delays Barbarossa until 1942. Malta falls and the Axis armies reach Cairo by the time the Germans are ready to attack the USSR. Stalin attempts to pre-empt the invasion with a spoiling attack of his own, but the poor state of the VVS and German operational experience enable them to defeat this before assuming the advance into the USSR. However, the Soviet mobilization structure is in full effect and comparatively the average Soviet soldier is better equipped than IOTL 1941; Barbarossa stalls out before both Smolensk and Kiev.

Soviet counter-attacks come that Winter, taking the shape of breaking through well managed Germans defenses at great cost in Belarus while the overstretched Army Group South is pushed back with greater success in the South. The Spring thaw brings things to a close on most axis, but a prolonged campaign for Moldova begins to take shape as the Red Army attempts to batter its way into the Balkans. An effort to advance into Poland in May is thwarted with heavy casualties, allowing the Wehrmacht to temporarily retake Lvov and other extreme Western Ukrainian cities before the Soviet summer offensives successfully eject them, as well as finish liberating Belarus. The fall and early winter see the Red Army finally secure Moldova and begin a prolonged campaign to take the Baltics. Spring 1944 sees the Baltics taken and the Red Army break into the Balkans, securing Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria and Yugoslavia, while their Summer offensive in Poland carries them to the Oder line. Germany collapses and surrenders in early 1945, as the Red Army takes Berlin in January.

The end result of this shorter Eastern Front and less deep German advance is to halve Soviet losses in WWII, and largely focus them on Western Ukraine, Belarus and the Baltics. Moldova, which here is annexed too as IOTL, has been depopulated as well, both by heavy fighting, evacuations and forced relocations. In this ATL, the Baltics and Moldova both become majority Slavic, in particular Russian, while Belarus becomes one third ethnic Russian and the depopulation of Western Ukraine serves to deeply Russify that country. The lesser demographic toll of WWII also means Soviet colonization efforts in Central Asia also pay off, turning the SSRs there either into Russian/Slavic majorities or pluralities. The only SSRs that don't become majority or plurality Slavic are the Caucasus, which still feature large minorities.

Halving Soviet World War II losses still means that the Soviet Union loses 30-50 million people of its demographic potential in the long run. Without WWII, the Soviet Union might have had 350-390 million people by 1990. Here, the Soviet Union will have 320-360 million people by 1990. That's still not enough to get to 600 million. Not even close.

 

[History Learner]

Halving Soviet World War II losses still means that the Soviet Union loses 30-50 million people of its demographic potential in the long run. Without WWII, the Soviet Union might have had 350-390 million people by 1990. Here, the Soviet Union will have 320-360 million people by 1990. That's still not enough to get to 600 million. Not even close.

I'd agree, but then again I wasn't really going for that either. A turbo-charged USSR that is even more clearly Russian dominated than historically is definitely a Slav wank.

 

[WolfBear]

I'd agree, but then again I wasn't really going for that either. A turbo-charged USSR that is even more clearly Russian dominated than historically is definitely a Slav wank.

But you could get an even bigger Slav-wank by having the Russian Empire survive and avoid almost all of the extreme demographic devastation that it suffered during the 20th century rather than only avoiding a part of it!

 

[History Learner]

But you could get an even bigger Slav-wank by having the Russian Empire survive and avoid almost all of the extreme demographic devastation that it suffered during the 20th century rather than only avoiding a part of it!

I'd agree that is the maximum Slavic wank, but I was going for another vector of it that, while lesser, is still a clear Slav wank. The USSR I've described here is likely to also annex Finland, puppet Turkey, and bring in Yugoslavia, Greece, Austria and more of Germany into the ATL Warsaw Pact.

 

[WolfBear]

I'd agree that is the maximum Slavic wank, but I was going for another vector of it that, while lesser, is still a clear Slav wank. The USSR I've described here is likely to also annex Finland, puppet Turkey, and bring in Yugoslavia, Greece, Austria and more of Germany into the ATL Warsaw Pact.

But in the long(er)-run, it's still likely to lose its satellites, isn't it? Though its odds of regathering Ukraine post-Soviet collapse should look more promising if eastern and southern Ukraine have suffered less demographic devastation due to WWII and also if more Russians move to Ukraine in the post-WWII years and decades due to Russia suffering less demographic devastation due to WWII as well. This allows Russia to recreate its empire a couple of decades or so after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

 

[History Learner]

But in the long(er)-run, it's still likely to lose its satellites, isn't it? Though its odds of regathering Ukraine post-Soviet collapse should look more promising if eastern and southern Ukraine have suffered less demographic devastation due to WWII and also if more Russians move to Ukraine in the post-WWII years and decades due to Russia suffering less demographic devastation due to WWII as well. This allows Russia to recreate its empire a couple of decades or so after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

In the same sense every Empire eventually collapses, sure, but I really doubt this USSR will collapse or lose its Empire in less than 50 years here. Not only is the demographic damage significantly less, so too is the economic damage. More of Germany-and thus the riches of it-will also likely come under its control. With the vast majority of the SSRs Russian dominated, you're likely to avoid the collapse here even if the economics somehow go screw-y; the collapse wasn't some inevitability.

 

[WolfBear]

In the same sense every Empire eventually collapses, sure, but I really doubt this USSR will collapse or lose its Empire in less than 50 years here. Not only is the demographic damage significantly less, so too is the economic damage. More of Germany-and thus the riches of it-will also likely come under its control. With the vast majority of the SSRs Russian dominated, you're likely to avoid the collapse here even if the economics somehow go screw-y; the collapse wasn't some inevitability.

Do you believe that the USSR's collapse would have likewise been prevented had France not fallen in 1940?

 

[ATP]

Ok, let us take a break from the happening right now, you all know what it is, and do some ASB-fueled discussions about what might have been if...
The main idea of this thread is to create a Slavic superpower that is either dominant globally or in Eurasia.
Slavs discover and colonize the Americas is also an option.
Other victory conditions should include religious autonomy, this can mean an autonomous Orthodox patriarchy or a fully captive Papacy
where only the Slav-approved candidates get to become Pope.
In any case the Orthodox-Catholic-Uniat confrontation will have to be quashed, and a form of Caesaropopism should exist.
Protestantism welcome, too.
Some form of more democratic governance, maybe in line with the original Slavic tribal warrior democracy that was described by Byzantine historians in the 5th century, preferably without a magnate/bolyar oligarchy.
NO SERFDOM!

By the mid-20th century the place should have a population of at least 600 million, cover a significant portion of Eurasia, read larger than the USSR, and be a massive technological and industrial powerhouse, seen by all those that surround it as "civilized" and prosperous, with a high living standard and a high GDP per capita, and a constitution enshrining personal rights, freedoms and responsibilities, but totalitarian pan-slavism is fine too.
It will probably need to have a confederate/dualist monarchy or republic/federal structure.

Option 1) The First Bulgarian Empire does not get into a huge, pointless spat with the Byzantines at the start of the 11th century, and focuses on Christianizing and bringing the slavonic rite to the Serbian, Montenegran and other Slavic tribes to the North, this removes the Rus and the modern Serbs from the picture, and eventually paves the way for further expansion into Siberia, perhaps some form of alliance with the Poles and a form of dualist state like the Polish-Lithuanina commonwealth, with more religious tolerance and an adoption of Cyrillic and orthodoxy.

Option 2) Hugely successful Cossack republic forming in what is modern-day Ukraine and Belarus gobbling up both Poland and Russia and making the United Slav States of Yurup.

Option 3) Something related to the Rus or Russia being hugely more successful.

Option 4) Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth something-something.Not familiar with their history, so somebody else should suggest how this can happen. @Batrix2070 @ATP feel free to add Polishwhank here.

1.I knew too little about bulgars to say anything,but Great Moravia hold current Czech,Slovakia,Hungarian,east germany and part of Poland.
They repelled german invasion,too - and get destroyed by hungarians in 905 AD.Let assume,that they beat them - we would have slavic empire with its own rite/made by Cyryl&Metody/,take other "polish" territories,and,after mongols destryed Russia,
beat Moscov there and take russian territories,too.
After fall of Byzantine,take balkans.They would become new ERE emperors,ruling from Berlin to Don river.Or maybe even Siberia.
Since they still were catholics,popes would support them against HRE.
In this TL they could discover America,and send settlers there.

2.Poland more succesfull - all we need was stronger kings.It would be enough if our Saint King,Jadwiga/wife of King Jagiełło/ survived and have son.
As a result,polish kings would be strong enough to not need to buy gentry support for everything.
Later - taking both Czech and Hungary,and beating Ottomans,also defending Great Novograt from Moscov.
After that,liberating Constantinopole and burning Moscov,taking Siberia,too.
No discovering America,but they could form state there instead of England.

3.Less changes - let Russia win WW1/possible ,if their generals was better/.They would take Constantinopole,part of germany and A-H,rest of Balkans,too.

 

[WolfBear]

Do you believe that the USSR's collapse would have likewise been prevented had France not fallen in 1940?

@History Learner Thoughts on my question here?

 

[History Learner]

@History Learner Thoughts on my question here?

The USSR's collapse was due to factors particular to the late 1980s, so yes, changing the Fall of France could definitely avert that.

 

[WolfBear]

The USSR's collapse was due to factors particular to the late 1980s, so yes, changing the Fall of France could definitely avert that.

You mean factors such as a largely destroyed 1910s-1920s-born male cohort, which was still felt in the late 1980s? Or, alternatively, the need to subsidize a vast Eastern European empire?