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Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

ShadowArxxy

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I agree with @Lord Sovereign that the Venator was a great design, which actually disproves the pretension that "BIGGAH IS ALWAYS BETTAH!" (which was the misguided Imperial doctrine). However... the NR in fact designed and mass-constructed the optimised successor to the Venator, in the form of the excellent Nebula-class.
Oh, and I'm going to disagree here too. The Nebula class is quite explicitly framed as a successor/counterpart to the Imperial Star Destroyer, not the Venator. It's the Endurance class fleet carrier, which cuts back substantially on direct armament in order to have a much bigger starfighter capacity, which is arguably a spiritual successor to the Venator.

Bigger isn't always better, but smaller, "more cost efficient" ships like the Nebulas still have to be built in larger numbers to balance the scales. The NRDF doesn't have tens of thousands, or even thousands, of Nebulas; it has ten.
 

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Now that we've established that the bullshit being peddled was indeed bullshit, and I've put the incorrigible liar on ignore -- I see on the main page preview that an ignored member has posted here, that'll be him then -- let's side-step his garbled nonsense entirely.

Much worthier of further conversation is this line of thought:

At the point they introduced "The Mother" Abiloth IE "What if Neil Gaman wrote a Star Wars book?" I knew the well had officially run dry and keep in mind for me star wars is like DnD it's a feat to for a story to definitely be NOT star wars. As bad as the sequel Trilogy was, the EU was getting run into the ground by the time Disney bought Star Wars. The authors really needed to take a tip from TOR.
Honestly I developed a new love and appreciation for the Legacy of the Force timeline and I wish Disney had done something akin to it

If you are going to do Skywalker stories have it revolve around Skywalkers hundreds if not thousands of years later. That way you have essentially a blank canvas to do what you want without things going turning fanfic.
It's been touted as an alternative to the sequels, but I definutely also see it as a solution to the question of "where to go next" -- for both the post-NJO EU and for the current post-TRoS Disney timeline. The great time-skip.

More a few centuries ahead, establish that there's been a long peace, and then introduce new challenges.

So my question is: if you had carte blanche, if the premise was "it's now (say) 500 ABY and the legacy of peace and prosperity that our heroes forged is at long last being threatened again"....

What's the threat? How would you set up a new story that's not just a re-hash of "Rebels versus Empire" or "Jedi versus Sith". (If we assume that this is a post-NJO distant future, "extra-galactic invasion" has also been done.)
 

Husky_Khan

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It looks like Darth Vader has become even more machine now then Man then he was even before,

James Earl Jones, the 91 Year Old Actor whose voiced Darth Vader for forty five years, has yielded his vocal talents regarding Vader over to a company called 'Respeecher' which specializes in voice cloning, using archived voices and an AI algorithm to generate new voice content. James Earl Jones worked with this company in order to generate the voice of Darth Vader for the recent 'Obi Wan Kenobi' series on Disney Plus.

 

Val the Moofia Boss

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We'll never be free. I'll be in a nursing home. The nurse will come into my room and play the 4th remake of Star Wars on the TV that debuted for the hundredth anniversary, and I'll still be hearing James Earl Jones' voice and the same sound effects and seeing Peter Cushing's CGI face. And the movie will be prefaced with the same Disney logo. The same franchises and the same faces for the rest of the earth's lifespan. The age of eternal franchises.
 

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We'll never be free. I'll be in a nursing home. The nurse will come into my room and play the 4th remake of Star Wars on the TV that debuted for the hundredth anniversary, and I'll still be hearing James Earl Jones' voice and the same sound effects and seeing Peter Cushing's CGI face. And the movie will be prefaced with the same Disney logo. The same franchises and the same faces for the rest of the earth's lifespan. The age of eternal franchises.
I dunno, I think the explosion in independent content and cheap special effects on the Web means lots of new stuff will crop up, by then. Sure, there’ll also be lots of derivative works, but when it’s easier than ever for reasonably talented laymen to jump on the computer and bring their stories to life, you’re bound to get creative people who have something new to offer.

Besides, audiences will eventually get bored with all the remakes and retellings of stories they’ve seen two or three times over, so a market for new stuff driven by independent creators? That could very well be, I think, though Big Media’s lobbying and IP-flexing may present “challenges” there.
 
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Now that we've established that the bullshit being peddled was indeed bullshit, and I've put the incorrigible liar on ignore -- I see on the main page preview that an ignored member has posted here, that'll be him then -- let's side-step his garbled nonsense entirely.

Much worthier of further conversation is this line of thought:



It's been touted as an alternative to the sequels, but I definitely also see it as a solution to the question of "where to go next" -- for both the post-NJO EU and for the current post-TRoS Disney timeline. The great time-skip.

More a few centuries ahead, establish that there's been a long peace, and then introduce new challenges.

So my question is: if you had carte blanche, if the premise was "it's now (say) 500 ABY and the legacy of peace and prosperity that our heroes forged is at long last being threatened again"....

What's the threat? How would you set up a new story that's not just a re-hash of "Rebels versus Empire" or "Jedi versus Sith". (If we assume that this is a post-NJO distant future, "extra-galactic invasion" has also been done.)
I don't feel comfortable giving an answer considering you just made a big stint about blocking Shadow even after several of us agreed with his points and you've dragged me into it by quoting me in the same post. Look whatever beef you have with each other take it outside either with the mods, pm discord, or something. You're the one that has a quarrel with Shadow. I don't, and I'd appreciate not getting dragged into it.
 
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Skallagrim

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I don't feel comfortable giving an answer considering you just made a big stint about blocking Shadow even after several of us agreed with his points and you've dragged me into it by quoting me in the same post. Look whatever beef you have with each other take it outside either with the mods, pm discord, or something. You're the one that has a quarrel with Shadow. I don't, and I'd appreciate not getting dragged into it.
That's fair. And to be clear: if it was just this one post of his, it'd be fine. But he's pulled the exact same shit a dozen times before. In this thread, in the MCU thread, in the LotR thread... and it's the exact same non-productive pattern every time. He has a very definitive opinion (which is fine, so do I), which he presents as a hard fact. When that's disputed, he doubles down, no matter what arguments are raised. He keeps doubling down until thorough evidence has been introduced, that he can no longer dismiss. Then he just drops out of the thread for a while. After that, he comes back, and repeats the same claims as if the previous interaction(s) never took place.

I'm done with that, I told him I'm done with that, and I told him the last time he did it that the next time, I'd put him on ignore because it leads nowhere. Now that's done, and my apologies for "dragging you into it". (To be clear, though: me quoting you doesn't imply that you agree with me, or even that I agree with you. Only that there was a line of conversation that was going somewhere, instead of one that is a dead end.)
 

Skallagrim

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I dunno, I think the explosion in independent content and cheap special effects on the Web means lots of new stuff will crop up, by then. Sure, there’ll also be lots of derivative works, but when it’s easier than ever for reasonably talented laymen to jump on the computer and bring their stories to life, you’re bound to get creative people who have something new to offer.

Besides, audiences will eventually get bored with all the remakes and retellings of stories they’ve seen two or three times over, so a market for new stuff driven by independent creators? That could very well be, I think, though Big Media’s lobbying and IP-flexing may present “challenges” there.
I suspect that even lobbying and IP claims won't ultimately do much good for the big corporations. The means to create all sorts of digital effects are becoming more and more accessible (meaning: both more affordable and easier to use). I think that the trend towards endless re-hashing and the death of creativity in the corporate context will prompt more and more people to become interested in "unofficial" productions, too.

This is still going through a lot of growing pains, but think about it. You have all these emerging technologies, and Disney has all this money... but no creativity. They use it all for uninspired re-hashing. Meanwhile, for ages, you've had people drawing, say, fan-comics based on bits of their favourite fanfiction. Now, imagine what'll happen when it become pretty easy to create a pretty good fan-film -- digitally? Imagine your all-time favourite fanfic adapted like that. I think projects like that are eventually going to be way more popular than the ever-diminishing dreck the studios regurgitate time and again.

The current corporate strategy is to hit such projects with a Cease & Desist notice, but the easier it becomes to produce such things, the harder it becomes to employ that strategy. They'll be released faster than the corporations can track them. (Additionally, since the main platforms -- e.g. YouTube -- are also corporate, and increasingly restrictive, we already see a trend towards more decentralised distribution, too. That's going to become the norm. It's hard to deplatform someone or something, if the platform is inherently ephemeral, and not centrally controlled.)

What we may call the "Disney approach" could very well end up being suicidal, ultimately leading to a critical mass of people checking out, bored. Which then causes the very thing Disney presumably wants to prevent: decentralised creation. "Of the people, by the people, for the people" we might even say.

Most of such fan-created stories (SW or otherwise) will no doubt be shit. But there will be good ones. And there will finally be a bit of creativity involved again!
 
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That's fair. And to be clear: if it was just this one post of his, it'd be fine. But he's pulled the exact same shit a dozen times before. In this thread, in the MCU thread, in the LotR thread... and it's the exact same non-productive pattern every time. He has a very definitive opinion (which is fine, so do I), which he presents as a hard fact. When that's disputed, he doubles down, no matter what arguments are raised. He keeps doubling down until thorough evidence has been introduced, that he can no longer dismiss. Then he just drops out of the thread for a while. After that, he comes back, and repeats the same claims as if the previous interaction(s) never took place.

I'm done with that, I told him I'm done with that, and I told him the last time he did it that the next time, I'd put him on ignore because it leads nowhere. Now that's done, and my apologies for "dragging you into it". (To be clear, though: me quoting you doesn't imply that you agree with me, or even that I agree with you. Only that there was a line of conversation that was going somewhere, instead of one that is a dead end.)
fair enough. I may or may not go into this part of the conversation in a PM or something. Back to your orginal question:

It's been touted as an alternative to the sequels, but I definutely also see it as a solution to the question of "where to go next" -- for both the post-NJO EU and for the current post-TRoS Disney timeline. The great time-skip.

More a few centuries ahead, establish that there's been a long peace, and then introduce new challenges.

So my question is: if you had carte blanche, if the premise was "it's now (say) 500 ABY and the legacy of peace and prosperity that our heroes forged is at long last being threatened again"....

What's the threat? How would you set up a new story that's not just a re-hash of "Rebels versus Empire" or "Jedi versus Sith". (If we assume that this is a post-NJO distant future, "extra-galactic invasion" has also been done.)
Honestly I would have taken a page out of The Old Republic and would have introduced something like The Zakuul Empire. I tend to be one of the people that fall into the Kyle Katarn philosophy of the force "It's not inherently one side or the other it just is, what defines light in dark is in how people us thier powers."

This would open up the possibility for all new force-related factions beyond just the binary Jedi vs. Sith Dynamic (We did get that a little bit with the night sisters but they got hosed into irrelevance in both EU and Disney continuity)

I mean when these trailers first came out, the star wars fandom lost its mind. (in a good way)




If I were Disney meaning I owned Marvel, the idea of bringing in the Skrulls or the Kree could be on the table, not only could you use that as a way to merge these two franchises together naturally but the idea of The Republic had to deal with an infiltration of the Republic or an advanced society that can artificially create their own force users could bring out some interesting dynamics or even raise some thought-provoking questions.

I know the Vong was supposed to do that, but I wasin't exactly a fan of how they were written.
 

Skallagrim

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Honestly I would have taken a page out of The Old Republic and would have introduced something like The Zakuul Empire. I tend to be one of the people that fall into the Kyle Katarn philosophy of the force "It's not inherently one side or the other it just is, what defines light in dark is in how people us thier powers."

This would open up the possibility for all new force-related factions beyond just the binary Jedi vs. Sith Dynamic (We did get that a little bit with the night sisters but they got hosed into irrelevance in both EU and Disney continuity)
the idea of The Republic had to deal with an infiltration of the Republic or an advanced society that can artificially create their own force users could bring out some interesting dynamics or even raise some thought-provoking questions.

I know the Vong was supposed to do that, but I wasin't exactly a fan of how they were written.
My preferences tend in the same direction on this. I feel that the Vong were more 40K than SW, in a sense. An interesting idea, sure, but I'm not convinced they fit into the setting very well. (Although, to be fair to the NJO writers, them being really 'alien' was kind of the point.)

I also agree on that side of the Force, and this is also -- sort of -- where NJO actually ended up, what with Jacen's and Luke's ultimate conclusions on the matter in The Unifying Force. On the other hand, I do despise the (memetic, game-dynamics-inspired) idea of "Grey Jedi" -- insofar as people take that to mean "half light, half dark, ALL edgy-and-cooler-than-thou".

As I've discussed on AH.com in the past, and in conversation with some others on this board, such as @Earl, one option would be replacing the Vong with an external force (heh!) exploring that concept and its intricacies. A faction representing an ostensible "third way" approach to the Force. Which can then ultimately be deconstructed to illustrate how wrong that can go. (While also still leading Luke and the other Jedi to re-consider their own view, and causing them to arrive at much the same conclusion as we saw at the end of the NJO series.)

Then again, people less interested in deconstructing the "grey Jedi" meme might not be so enthralled by that, and in any case, I suggested it as a sort of "substitute" for the Vong. I'm not sure if I could make it work if we shift the context to "several centuries later".

That being said: I went with "infiltration of the Republic (and the Jedi)", because that's what NJO did originally, and also because it would show the "Third Way" philosophy being superficioally very attractive to many people. But you raise a fascinating alternative concept:

"[A]n advanced society that can artificially create their own force users"

That really seems like something you could take into interesting places. Obviously, it can't be clones (we've had that idea already). But the notion of a faction that can use some -- presumably technological, or MagiTek -- method to create Force-users would really be a game changer in the setting.



If I were Disney meaning I owned Marvel, the idea of bringing in the Skrulls or the Kree could be on the table, not only could you use that as a way to merge these two franchises together naturally
You'd drive the fans to fury, no doubt, since SW explicitly takes place "long ago". So crossovers with anything set in the present would be right out. To be honest, I'm not a big fan of crossovers anyway, but that's personal preference. Because of the more objective reason, though, it might be better to just take a faction you like (or traits thereof!), file off the serial numbers, and drop the result into SW as an orginal faction.
 
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My preferences tend in the same direction on this. I feel that the Vong were more 40K than SW, in a sense. An interesting idea, sure, but I'm not convinced they fit into the setting very well. (Although, to be fair to the NJO writers, them being really 'alien' was kind of the point.)

I also agree on that side of the Force, and this is also -- sort of -- where NJO actually ended up, what with Jacen's and Luke's ultimate conclusions on the matter in The Unifying Force. On the other hand, I do despise the (memetic, game-dynamics-inspired) idea of "Grey Jedi" -- insofar as people take that to mean "half light, half dark, ALL edgy-and-cooler-than-thou".

As I've discussed on AH.com in the past, and in conversation with some others on this board, such as @Earl, one option would be replacing the Vong with an external force (heh!) exploring that concept and its intricacies. A faction representing an ostensible "third way" approach to the Force. Which can then ultimately be deconstructed to illustrate how wrong that can go. (While also still leading Luke and the other Jedi to re-consider their own view, and causing them to arrive at much the same conclusion as we saw at the end of the NJO series.)

Then again, people less interested in deconstructing the "grey Jedi" meme might not be so enthralled by that, and in any case, I suggested it as a sort of "substitute" for the Vong. I'm not sure if I could make it work if we shift the context to "several centuries later".

That being said: I went with "infiltration of the Republic (and the Jedi)", because that's what NJO did originally, and also because it would show the "Third Way" philosophy being superficioally very attractive to many people. But you raise a fascinating alternative concept:

"[A]n advanced society that can artificially create their own force users"

That really seems like something you could take into interesting places. Obviously, it can't be clones (we've had that idea already). But the notion of a faction that can use some -- presumably technological, or MagiTek -- method to create Force-users would really be a game changer in the setting.
The problem with both the terms Dark Jedi and Grey Jedi is that they are essentially Catch all worthless terms to essentially describe good and evil force users and factions that don't follow the traditional Jedi/Sith Dynamic.

The Corellian Jedi, and the Light Sith would technically be considered grey Jedi even though the only thing they have in common is to fight for honor and not go on a murderous rage, meanwhile, the Zakuul Empire and the Mandalorion Jedi would be considered dark jedi even though they have only some basic things in common.

And then you have factions like the nightsisters (and even the clone wars era Jedi order) with varying individuals like that could either be grey or dark Jedi. again, worthless and lazy terms.

The Dark forces game series did explore the idea of artificial force users called The Reborn, but it never really went anywhere other than to give you an excuse to have a bunch of lightsaber duels.

You'd drive the fans to fury, no doubt, since SW explicitly takes place "long ago". So crossovers with anything set in the present would be right out. To be honest, I'm not a big fan of crossovers anyway, but that's personal preference. Because of the more objective reason, though, it might be better to just take a faction you like (or traits thereof!), file off the serial numbers, and drop the result into SW as an orginal faction.
Eh, even Star Wars B.D.A (Which we all know means Before the Disney Acquisition and does not at all mean Before the Dark Ages. We all love the bold direction our mouse overlords have taken Star Wars *wink wink) had it's share of crossovers, including Cameos from both the ET species and the Xenomorphs not to mention a full blown promotional Star Wars X Soul Calibur/Tekken game and comic (Yes this is as crazy and as awesome as it sounds. Ah good times.)


oddly enough if you took this at face value it means A new Hope took place in our year of 1592 as the game took place I believe in the middle of the events in force unleashed which is 2BBY while the Soul Caliber game takes place in the year 1590

Many of the Alien races were around thousands if not millions of years before the first civilization came around it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for something like say the symbiotes to appear from the "unknown regions" and cause chaos in the Star Wars universe.
 
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The problem with both the terms Dark Jedi and Grey Jedi is that they are essentially Catch all worthless terms to essentially describe good and evil force users and factions that don't follow the traditional Jedi/Sith Dynamic.

The Corellian Jedi, and the Light Sith would technically be considered grey Jedi even though the only thing they have in common is to fight for honor and not go on a murderous rage, meanwhile, the Zakuul Empire and the Mandalorion Jedi would be considered dark jedi even though they have only some basic things in common.

And then you have factions like the nightsisters (and even the clone wars era Jedi order) with varying individuals like that could either be grey or dark Jedi. again, worthless and lazy terms.

The Dark forces game series did explore the idea of artificial force users called The Reborn, but it never really went anywhere other than to give you an excuse to have a bunch of lightsaber duels.



Eh, even Star Wars B.D.A (Which we all know means Before the Disney Acquisition and does not at all mean Before the Dark Ages. We all love the bold direction our mouse overlords have taken Star Wars *wink wink) had it's share of crossovers, including Cameos from both the ET species and the Xenomorphs not to mention a full blown promotional Star Wars X Soul Calibur/Tekken game and comic (Yes this is as crazy and as awesome as it sounds. Ah good times.)


oddly enough if you took this at face value it means A new Hope took place in our year of 1592 as the game took place I believe in the middle of the events in force unleashed which is 2BBY while the Soul Caliber game takes place in the year 1590

Many of the Alien races were around thousands if not millions of years before the first civilization came around it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for something like say the symbiotes to appear from the "unknown regions" and cause chaos in the Star Wars universe.
Imagine a faction that trained it's soldiers like this.

 

Sailor.X

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We'll never be free. I'll be in a nursing home. The nurse will come into my room and play the 4th remake of Star Wars on the TV that debuted for the hundredth anniversary, and I'll still be hearing James Earl Jones' voice and the same sound effects and seeing Peter Cushing's CGI face. And the movie will be prefaced with the same Disney logo. The same franchises and the same faces for the rest of the earth's lifespan. The age of eternal franchises.
What do you mean we. I will more than likely be dead by then.
 

Husky_Khan

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Pretty cool new YouTuber on Star Wars Lore I've encountered. His name is Corey's Datapad and I've only seen one video of his so far, but it was an animated Battle 'Breakdown' about the Battle of Folor between Warlord Zsinj's Imperial Forces and a Rebel Task Force headed by Wraith Squadron.


Skimming over the titles of his other videos, definitely going to be checking his other stuff out when I get the time.
 

ShadowArxxy

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Imagine a faction that trained it's soldiers like this.

To be fair, resurrection tech like that is an absolute game changer for high end combat training of any sort, and it's *not* a tech that Star Wars actually has. I do agree that it would be pretty interesting to add a faction that had resurrection-based training like this as their unique schtick, which is what I *think* you mean here?

Realistically choreographed duels between warriors of this faction (i.e. highly skilled practitioners of lethally practical swordfighting styles born from resurrection-based training) and Jedi Knights (i.e. incredibly sloppy practitioners of highly stylized, almost ceremonial swordfighting styles that compensate with precognition-based reflexes, telekinesis, and supernatural capabilities) would definitely be really interesting.
 
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ShadowArxxy

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Pretty cool new YouTuber on Star Wars Lore I've encountered. His name is Corey's Datapad and I've only seen one video of his so far, but it was an animated Battle 'Breakdown' about the Battle of Folor between Warlord Zsinj's Imperial Forces and a Rebel Task Force headed by Wraith Squadron.

That is a beautiful breakdown of one of the best small-scale engagements that we get to see in detail in Legends/EU. Is it just me, or was "Admiral Trigit" always an obvious word play on "Admiral Idiot"?
 
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To be fair, resurrection tech like that is an absolute game changer for high end combat training of any sort, and it's *not* a tech that Star Wars actually has. I do agree that it would be pretty interesting to add a faction that had resurrection-based training like this as their unique schtick, which is what I *think* you mean here?

Realistically choreographed duels between warriors of this faction (i.e. highly skilled practitioners of lethally practical swordfighting styles born from resurrection-based training) and Jedi Knights (i.e. incredibly sloppy practitioners of highly stylized, almost ceremonial swordfighting styles that compensate with precognition-based reflexes, telekinesis, and supernatural capabilities) would definitely be really interesting.
It'd catch the jedi off gaurd that's for certain, what I'm almost imagining like this very militaristic meteoritic society sort of like the mandalorians except more organized as opposed to scattered tribes. like legionaries.
 

ShadowArxxy

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It'd catch the jedi off gaurd that's for certain, what I'm almost imagining like this very militaristic meteoritic society sort of like the mandalorians except more organized as opposed to scattered tribes. like legionaries.
I think the degree to which the Jedi would be flat-footed depends substantially on whether you're taking the Jedi based on WYSIWYG of their movie choreography -- here we of course reference that epic satirical breakdown of TPM's lightsaber fights -- or whether we take it more thematically and project the Jedi being reasonably competent practitioners but following styles that aren't as ruthlessly optimized as actual kill-fights.

I'd argue for the latter being more interesting, although the curbstomping produced by the former might be satisfying as a "take that!"
 
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I think the degree to which the Jedi would be flat-footed depends substantially on whether you're taking the Jedi based on WYSIWYG of their movie choreography -- here we of course reference that epic satirical breakdown of TPM's lightsaber fights -- or whether we take it more thematically and project the Jedi being reasonably competent practitioners but following styles that aren't as ruthlessly optimized as actual kill-fights.

I'd argue for the latter being more interesting, although the curbstomping produced by the former might be satisfying as a "take that!"
it could be a little of both especially if we are doing the whole "The galaxy has been at peace for hundreds of years" plot. It's possible that much like before the Jedi have sort of rested on their laurels, and have once again become more of a political and ceremonial caste as opposed to a truly warrior caste. They have more of a ceremonial style because it's designed to be more of a show of majesty than practical fighting and then this extragalactic threat shows up and the initial custom serves as a wake-up call.

Hence why there would be such desperation to find the last of the living Skywalker line, as they were trained in the old styles like forms II and III as opposed to the more flashy and impractical forms like Ataru.
 
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