Yes, the animations that Gamesworkshop had commissioned, oversaw, and then approved for release.
Along with their edition promotions.
Starfleet Ground Troops vs 40k Space Marines
- Thread starter The Original Sixth
- Start date
Yes, the animations that Gamesworkshop had commissioned, oversaw, and then approved for release.
Along with their edition promotions.
And the books which feature the main parts of the lore.
The return of the Lion, the return of guilliman.
You don't see these in animated form yet. You see them in the books.
You dint see the giant battles we get in the books.
You may get close. With the biggest I can think of Battle Fleet Gothic 2 intro with the fall of cadia
The return of the Lion, the return of guilliman.
You don't see these in animated form yet. You see them in the books.
You dint see the giant battles we get in the books.
You may get close. With the biggest I can think of Battle Fleet Gothic 2 intro with the fall of cadia
Scooby Doo
Well-known member
Someone catch me up to date, what's the counter to Spacemarines speedblitz aim botting?
Fifteen years ago some nerd on SB.com counted every phaser shot on The Next Generation and determined they are more accurate than the New York Police Department. Also in a ToS episode Arena according to dialogue the engagement range with Hand Phasers was 1500 meters. Plus in Star Trek they have digital targeting optics on their weapons which means they can be fired off axis.
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Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
The Ultramarines Movie.
You are using
The Ultramarines Movie.
I don’t even know what to say. Games Workshop itself, who has made tremendously poor decisions down the years, tries to forget that one.
The Astartes animation, although fan made, is considered vastly more accurate than that for the most part.
But you see, Animation is easier to decide if a writer is being flowery with thier language or not
Scooby Doo
Well-known member
I mean tbh fine they're technically that accurate, but how fast can they target and fire at that range would be my follow up question.
There's also the psychology issue of seeing your buddy blow up next to them, I don't think Startrek forces are that well composed to shrug off that visual brutality mid combat.
Agent23
Ни шагу назад!
Are these animations even canon?
I thought the Ultramarines movie was fan material that got sued into oblivion?
Yes, yes I am.
If you feel that Games Workshop was dissatisfied with the work, can you post it? Are they upset about the animation? The story? The special effects? What?
Maybe some fans do, but I'm not just referring to the Ultramarines Movie.
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It's not like I'm just taking one piece and trying to slap it over all the rest. This is a fairly consistent portrayal of Space Marines across Games Workshop and Relic. It's one thing if you argue that the former portrayal was bad and Games Workshop was embarrassed, but what you folks are arguing for is consistently at odds with what Games Workshop and Relic put out. They're not as fast or god-like as some of the people here are arguing for.
They just aren't.
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No, the Ultramarines movie was an official release. Was written by Black Library author Dan Abnett.
Most of those fights were at 12-30 foot ranges, but that's TNG where most fights occur indoors. A few took place at further ranges. The longest range for a phaser type II was 1,500 meters. They couldn't do much in the way of targeting, since the TOS Type IIs only have a simple reflex sight and I don't think there was any way to increase their magnification. DS9's Field of Fire has a Vulcan serial killer using a targeting scanner that allowed him to target anyone on the station, suggesting a range of at least a kilometer. As for firing, we know their phaser rifles have multi-target acquisition and gyro-stabilizers, so they're probably fairly accurate all things considered.
You know that the Federation had a war with the Dominion, right? Involving ground troops? Between phasers and artillery, some people most assuredly were blown to bits. You're not really asking for a tall order. People were getting blown apart consistently in war since the industrial age.
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Can we get some information on that? What kind of shot was it? We saw how "accurate" those Ultramarines and Alpha Legion were in the movie. It wasn't terrible or anything like that, we saw them show pretty good aim, but we saw both groups unload their rifles at each other, despite having clear shots. It's not like they were expert sniping one another.
I doubt it would be much further. At least on an Earth-like planet, because the curvature of the Earth is 4.8 km. There's only so far you can go.
If it happens to be so, then yes. I mean, one of your quotes was literally a Space Marine basically launching himself like 10 feet with every step during a run. His legs simply aren't long enough for that.
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
Batrix2070
RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
Eh, it's the same again with UNSC troopers vs Starfleet Troopers. As much as the rocks would shit, the sky would fall on their heads, Star Trek fans can't understand that techno toys don't win wars. If they did, WWII would have been won by the Germans using the Wunderwaffe.
To answer your question, the Space Marines win because they are an elite force, monk warriors designed as a fighting force to conquer entire star systems. Their entire organization, style of operations or, in short, the System, is superior to what Starfleet has. It is what makes the Marines win. This argument about equipment is pointless, because it, in a general sense, has little meaning.
Starfleet, as you can see, lacks something like that. Their ground troops are designed as glorified bodyguards. How are they supposed to stop a military formation that has been fighting a constant war for 10,000 years? A formation with a fanatical eprit de corps, trained in murderous training and constantly engaged in military operations.
What's more, this system was designed by a being far superior in knowledge, experience and skill to all Starfleet officers in their entire history. One has to be extremely blind or ignorant that most likely in Codex Astartes, the combat manual for the Space Marines, is the solution to what to do with such an opponent as Starfleet soldiers.
To answer your question, the Space Marines win because they are an elite force, monk warriors designed as a fighting force to conquer entire star systems. Their entire organization, style of operations or, in short, the System, is superior to what Starfleet has. It is what makes the Marines win. This argument about equipment is pointless, because it, in a general sense, has little meaning.
Starfleet, as you can see, lacks something like that. Their ground troops are designed as glorified bodyguards. How are they supposed to stop a military formation that has been fighting a constant war for 10,000 years? A formation with a fanatical eprit de corps, trained in murderous training and constantly engaged in military operations.
What's more, this system was designed by a being far superior in knowledge, experience and skill to all Starfleet officers in their entire history. One has to be extremely blind or ignorant that most likely in Codex Astartes, the combat manual for the Space Marines, is the solution to what to do with such an opponent as Starfleet soldiers.
Agent23
Ни шагу назад!
Yup, Feds are military incompetents and their "wunderwaffe" efficiency functions purely on the basis of plot and randomness.
Meanwhile, in 40k you need to go through decades of grueling training and deadly combat just to qualify as a neophyte.
Scooby Doo
Well-known member
Well those are good feats, it shows they can engage at distances to keep the Spacemarines strength irrelevant. The issue at hand is who can lock onto the other first and launch their Alpha strike?
Because while they may have comparable combat range of the Spacemarines, it ends up who is shooting who first, If it's the Spacemarines they will end up with a solid advantage that will quickly go downhill for the Startrek forces as they have less firepower during the opening barrage.
Yes I do know but even soldiers get affected by combat stress reaction.
Combat stress reaction - Wikipedia
Think of it has morale, in real life if a Soldiers pal gets blown up right next to them they may still be able to continue to fight but they won't be fighting at optimum efficiency there would be at least a delay as they process their pal getting blown up and nigh instant killed.
Sure they'll probably start shooting back but there will be a delay, Spacemarine on the other hand have much higher morale so are less likely to be phased by the losses of their brothers and if they were the enhanced reflexes would allow them to process what happened faster and move on from it.
Like wise Spacemarines have the added benefit of better endurance, they could still fight pretty effectively even with serious injuries.
There is a chance a direct hit max yield blast to a Spacemarine could penetrate their armor but not do enough damage to the redundancy and back up systems in their biology.
Where as the Startrek force is dying 100/100 from a direct hit, so from my perspective it's.
Spacemarines have
-Reflexes (Higher chance to strike first)
-Endurance (Higher chance to survive an attack that breaks through the armor)
-Morale (Their fantasticism will making breaking their Morale almost impossible)
Star trek have
-Comparable Range (Can engage at distance to prevent the Spacemarines from taking advantage of their super strength and CQC)
-Comparable Accuracy (The technology should allow them to match the inherent accuracy of a Spacemarine)
Annd that's it. So I see best case scenario the Star Trek forces open fire possibly killing a few Spacemarines and then getting immediately gun downed by faster return fire and then pressured with suppressive fire while the Marines use their superior mobility (Strong legs) to flank and cut them down.
Basic.
Math.
And.
Biology.
A Space Marine in Power armor is about 7 feet tall. If he were traveling 20 ft a pace (10 ft per step), every step of his leg at full run would mean that he's traveling 3 feet farther than he is tall. That is simply not possible for a biped like a human. A 6'5" tall man would only have a stride of 2.6 feet. At a run, that increases to about 5.33 ft. A Space Marine would probably manage somewhat a bit higher; probably wouldn't even reach 6 feet, but probably closer to 5.5 feet. By the book's language, the Space Marine would be basically moon running. Space Marines aren't Jedi. And when we look at the actual animations of their fight, we clearly don't see these guys traveling well over their own height with every step. This isn't about how fast they can move, it's about how far they can stretch their legs.
Germany's fascination with techno-toys wasn't the only reason why they lost the war. Germany losing the war can be attributed to the fact that it was facing down a major continental power on the eastern flank, an awakened superpower to the west across the Atlantic, and a hostile United Kingdom to the northwest.
That's some nice propaganda. It's a pity that's all you've come to offer. You've done nothing but walk in and scream "BUT MUH SPASH MARIEEENES!". You need to substantiate your claims with combat performance, weapon capabilities, and so forth. I've already done that. And yes, a bolter round would effortlessly kill a Federation soldier. Just as a phaser would effortlessly kill a Space Marine.
Are you actually going to substantiate that? Cite some sources? What do you have that proves that Starfleet are nothing but glorified bodyguards who don't have any understanding of how war actually works?
Well, for one thing, they've probably retained institutional knowledge from hundreds of different species. The Imperium's Space Marines on the other hand...well, constant warfare is not good for your institutions because it slowly grinds them down until they're a shadow of their former self. The opposite of what you are arguing for Starfleet is that they're soft. And while there is certainly an indication that they had grown soft, we saw how quickly Starfleet was able to handle a threat as large as the Dominion.
You mean like charge openly against the enemy with no cover and hoping that you don't get gunned down like a chump? Because that's exactly what Space Marines do against Orks and the Necrons. It's rather telling that an order given by a Vorta to get all his Jem'Hadar killed, an order that the Jem'Hadar knew was a suicide order, and ended with them all dying in a matter of seconds--is standard operating procedure among the cOdEx AsTaRteS.
Yup, Feds are military incompetents and their "wunderwaffe" efficiency functions purely on the basis of plot and randomness.
I would like to remind you and everyone else, that you are the same guy who looked at Russia being repulsed on all fronts, suffering massive losses in personnel and equipment, and your military analysis of the situation was "the Russians are just luring them into a false sense of security".
So maybe we shouldn't take your word on just how incompetent Starfleet is, because when we look at actual military scenarios, you clearly lack any sort of objective argument even as Russian soldiers are leaving piss trails all the way back to Crimea.
You're also wrong, by the way.
TNG ™ pg 327-328
All personnel attached to a starship, from the botanist to the freaking waiter, they are all trained to use a low-variant of phaser I. Meanwhile, away-team candidates (those qualified to go on away-teams) are required to train every month. That's basically the same sort of training schedule you'd expect for someone in the Army Reserve:
Army Reserve — Today's Military
The Army Reserve offers the opportunity to serve while attending school or working in a civilian career.
www.todaysmilitary.com
They also have holodecks, so they can actually do some pretty advanced simulations, even during deep space exploration.
Okay...and? I can see how that would make someone experienced and a worthy candidate of being a Space Marine, but we saw newly minted Space Marines in the Ultramarines movie. They were good, but they weren't exactly one-shotting dudes with super accurate shots or dodging bullets.
It could go either way? There's no real way to determine how that goes. War is very chaotic. We might argue that one side is most likely to spot the other first and win, but that's all we can really do. In this case, it's probably Starfleet that has the advantage because their tricorders tend to have a range of about 2 km (at least) on their own, whereas Space Marine auspex typically have a range of 50 meters. In scenario 1, that's going to give Starfleet a chance to shoot first. In scenario 2, that's going to give Starfleet a chance to lob a grenade from more than a klick away with the yield of a tactical nuke.
Yes, but most soldiers don't just go to pieces because their buddy was killed. It's traumatic, but they fight on. Your own source even indicates as such:
Combat stress reaction - Wikipedia
Sure, that does happen and Space Marines would not be affected the same way; that is certainly an advantage. It can even be a decisive advantage, but if you're going into every fight assuming it will be, you are very much mistaken.
A Space Marine is not likely going to survive being hit with a phaser on setting 8. The SEM effect is probably too high for his armor to stop it and when the phaser reaches contact with his skin, the NDF will spread out from the path of the beam and burn away his internal organs. It's very similar to what we see with Necron weapons (in fact, they work on a similar, but very different concept) and we see that a direct hit to a Space Marine's chest from a necron gaus flayer kills the guy.
Yeah, no. Let's make something clear. The SEM from a phaser at level 8 was enough to blast apart about a third cubic meters of rock. The SEM for that is about 106 kilojoules. Bolter arounds are around 14-18 kilojoules, depending on how you calculate it. The upper end that I've seen is typically about 24-28 kilojoules. The armor is not capable of stopping the phaser beam. Once the phaser beam penetrates the armor and reaches the Space Marine's chest, the contact with organic matter will result in the NDF taking off. Even if we assume that the phaser beam loses about half of its energy penetrating the dude's armor, we can expect that most of his organs will be vaporized and the blood in his entire body will probably reach the boiling level. There is simply no way to survive that.
At setting 16, we know that phasers discharge about 900 kilojoules per second. That's enough power to just blow a Space Marine to pieces. To give you an idea, 908 kilojoules would be enough to blow apart 2.8 cubic meters of concrete/rock. To give you an idea of what that means, this is 1 cubic meter below:
And that's JUST the SEM, not any secondary effect that the NDF will have. There won't be anything left to collect a geneseed from, let alone survive.
They're both gonna die from a direct hit.
You have some good points, but I do not see how that points to one side consistently winning. Neither of these advantages are decisive. Allow me to make some of my own points.
Space Marines
- Pros
- Highly experienced (decades of experience, masters of a dozen weapons and means of war)
- Highly motivated (religious fanatics)
- Highly disciplined (highly resistant to shellshock and other trauma)
- Enhanced reflexes, strength, and durability (superhuman level)
- Weapons are capable of killing target in a single shot.
- Cons
- Are 7 feet tall and fairly bulky, presenting a larger target to the enemy.
- Can also be killed in one-shot.
- Pros
- Moderately experienced (Dominion War, training regiment on par with US Army Reserve, proficient training)
- Highly motivated (protecting their state, nation, friends, and family)
- Strong discipline (military order and discipline is enforced)
- Weapons can kill target in a single shot
- Weapons have aiming assistance built-in (target acquisition, gyro-stabilization)
- Can accurately track targets out to 2 klicks
- Present a leaner target due to little equipment.
- Highly mobile.
- Good situational awareness.
- Scenario 2 -- Very powerful grenade launcher with a tactical nuke.
- Scenario 2 -- Personal shielding might provide some protection.
- Cons
- Light body armor, no helmets.
- Little equipment can be bad when stuck behind enemy lines.
- Badge communicator is not in an optimal place (though this can be changed). Although they often tap the badge to open a line of communication, it can be voice-activated.
- Scenario 2 -- Personal shielding is unlikely to stop a bolter round, so may offer a false sense of security.
While again, I am not going out to make Space Marines look bad, we do not really see that super-fast return fire that normal people can't keep up with. I expect those sort of reflexes and skills play a greater role in more urban encounters, where something jumps out at you and tries to kill you. At longer ranges, while I am sure it does play a role, I don't think it's going to make the Space Marines unstoppable. The Space Marines could obviously win. Where I stand is that I don't think the situation favors them.
Starfleet will have advanced knowledge of where they are, which means that they get to determine engagement. Given the obvious physical and cybernetic enhancements, they're not going to want to engage in close range. Given the armor, they're going to need a higher setting to punch through. Therefore, Starfleet is going to want to engage at 1 to 1.5 kilometers away. The Space Marines, whose auspex doesn't extend past 50 meters for most designs, are not likely to see the attack coming. The initial strike is probably going to be devastating to their numbers. Their enemy is probably going to be hiding behind thick rocks or laying prone. Their enemy will also probably pick the high ground.
If the Space Marines had armor that could soak up phaser shots, it would be different. That's why Space Marines are effective in 40k; their armor is strong enough to resist most weapons. That is not the case here; their armor is no longer an advantage, it is a hindrance because it makes them a larger target for no added benefit relevant to the situation. The armor won't stop a phaser, the enhanced strength won't be useful in a ranged confrontation, and even if it somehow enhances top speed, it won't allow the Space Marines to reach the target before they're all blown apart.
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