Agent23
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Yeah, no, as per OP the Warp exists.
Crossover The Daemon Primarchs get transported to Star Wars - verse.
- Thread starter Tyzuris
- Start date
Also per the OP...
So the Warp exists but the Chaos Gods aren't direct influences on things. So Chaos assumingly will have to gain power through gaining worshippers and sacrificing souls and such and also dealing with The Force of the Star Wars Galaxy. It didn't specify an Eye of Terror either so it could be that doesn't exist here but with the Warp there's obviously many ways of traversing to and from the Immaterium into Star Wars realspace.
The Daemon Primarch's not being constantly resurrected, or being eliminated for a long period of time, as what sometimes happens with Sith Lords, seems like a reasonable tradeoff IMHO.
Should make things more interesting as a Versus thusly.
Skallagrim
Well-known member
I've previously argued that SW and 40K are perfectly compatible and you can quite realistically investigate this kind of cross-over and its effects... if you treat the Force and the Warp as fundamentally the same thing, but with a different condition in the two settings. In SW, you get the Force: essentially the Immaterium manifested as an "energy field generated by all living beings", which is generally harmonious, and only to a degree afflicted by the influence of the darker impulses of sapient beings. In 40K, you get the Warp: which is the same Immaterium, but heated and stirred (as it were) into a frothing cauldron of frenzied passions.
My hypothesis is that the cataclysmic events and unmatched horrors of the War in Heaven caused the Immaterium to become so, ah... warped. I also view Hyperspace (inherently a plane of existence where mass and matter can be discounted, thus allowing FTL travel) as fundamentally skirting the ede of the Immaterium. In the setting of 40K, this thin membrane appears to have been dissolved into the Immaterium.
Applying that thesis to this scenario, we might venture a guess as to the implications. These end up tracking quite well with the premises of the OP.
First off the "gods" manifested in and by the Warp are created out of the passions and guiding notions and impulses of sapient beings. The War in Heaven brought forth (or at any rate: brought to greatness) the Ruinous Powers, their great strength (combined with the collapse of many barriers between Materium and Immaterium) allowed them considerable direct influence in the Materium, this in turn allowed them to sway many to serve them and worship them, which in turn increased their power again. A self-perpetuating mechanism.
In the SW setting, the barriers between Materium and Immaterium remain; and Hyperspace remains "on the surface" of the Immaterium, rather than having collapsed right into it. Furthermore, the collective psyche of the galaxy's inhabitants has never been so utterly ruined as was accomplished by the War in Heaven. Even the domination of, and uprising against, the Rakata appears to have been far less of a "Big Thing". Indeed, it even has positive, optimistic connotations in the vague cultural memories of those who triumphantly threw off the yoke.
All of this explains that, if transplanted to the SW setting, the Ruinous Powers will be unable to directly influence much of anything. They are far more cut off from the physical universe, and the "background psyche" of the galaxy is in much less turmoil; so there's less for them to easily exploit.
On the other hand, a whole shitload of their followers has just been dumped into this galaxy, and those retain their worship and dedication-- which explains why the Ruinous Powers do promptly manifest in the setting. Although in truth, they'll be much-reduced, less-powerfil instantiations of the same ideas (in the Platonist sense).
The further implication (not stated by the OP, but derived from mu train of thought here) would then be that the forces of Chaos lose much of whatever "supernatural" power they derive from the Ruinous Powers. There's less power to give. Indeed, the power that is there... is the Force. Which is this setting's manifestation of the same "energy generated by all life".
The Force is less inclined towards "personalised" manifestation (i.e. "deities"). Insofar as the galaxy's inhabitants have collectively manifested these, we must point to the Ones, of Mortis. A triad of a father (who maintains order), a daughter (who creates new life) and a son (who destroys). This is very much akin to the central Hindu triad of creator-preserver-destroyer. Representative of the natural cycle of renewal, as it were.
(An instantation that comes closest to the typcal 40K approach -- although still far removed from it -- may be identified in the Goddess cult of the Pius Dea movement.)
A very striking result is that whatever "dark" impulse is manifested in the Force does not take the shape of a distinct "god", but rather appears as a more selfish realisation. Dark Siders are not like Chaos adepts, because they are too egocentric for that. They become atomised away from all others, whereas those who are in the Light are all linked together in supernatural harmony. This may be the natural state of the Immaterium, or it may just be a result of the dominant "trends" in the thinking (and feeling) of sapients in this galaxy.
At any rate, it suggests that if the imported Chaos legions seek more power, they'll find it by becoming... more like Sith. By adapting to their new situation, and seeking out the sources of power that it offers them. And in doing so, they'll be afflicted by the same weaknesses that beset the Sith (and all Dark Siders), in that they become more atomised. More self-centred and self-obsessed.
Possibly to the point that subjugation to, let's face it, those now rather distant Ruinous Powers becomes less and less attractive. Thus leeching away the power of Chaos, and slowly turning the legions of Chaos into something far more like a Sith Empire.
(And, conversely, if a Sith Empire of old were to ve transplanted to the 40K setting, its Dark Siders would just as surely become swayed, and ultimately dominated, by the Chaos Gods.)
My hypothesis is that the cataclysmic events and unmatched horrors of the War in Heaven caused the Immaterium to become so, ah... warped. I also view Hyperspace (inherently a plane of existence where mass and matter can be discounted, thus allowing FTL travel) as fundamentally skirting the ede of the Immaterium. In the setting of 40K, this thin membrane appears to have been dissolved into the Immaterium.
Applying that thesis to this scenario, we might venture a guess as to the implications. These end up tracking quite well with the premises of the OP.
First off the "gods" manifested in and by the Warp are created out of the passions and guiding notions and impulses of sapient beings. The War in Heaven brought forth (or at any rate: brought to greatness) the Ruinous Powers, their great strength (combined with the collapse of many barriers between Materium and Immaterium) allowed them considerable direct influence in the Materium, this in turn allowed them to sway many to serve them and worship them, which in turn increased their power again. A self-perpetuating mechanism.
In the SW setting, the barriers between Materium and Immaterium remain; and Hyperspace remains "on the surface" of the Immaterium, rather than having collapsed right into it. Furthermore, the collective psyche of the galaxy's inhabitants has never been so utterly ruined as was accomplished by the War in Heaven. Even the domination of, and uprising against, the Rakata appears to have been far less of a "Big Thing". Indeed, it even has positive, optimistic connotations in the vague cultural memories of those who triumphantly threw off the yoke.
All of this explains that, if transplanted to the SW setting, the Ruinous Powers will be unable to directly influence much of anything. They are far more cut off from the physical universe, and the "background psyche" of the galaxy is in much less turmoil; so there's less for them to easily exploit.
On the other hand, a whole shitload of their followers has just been dumped into this galaxy, and those retain their worship and dedication-- which explains why the Ruinous Powers do promptly manifest in the setting. Although in truth, they'll be much-reduced, less-powerfil instantiations of the same ideas (in the Platonist sense).
The further implication (not stated by the OP, but derived from mu train of thought here) would then be that the forces of Chaos lose much of whatever "supernatural" power they derive from the Ruinous Powers. There's less power to give. Indeed, the power that is there... is the Force. Which is this setting's manifestation of the same "energy generated by all life".
The Force is less inclined towards "personalised" manifestation (i.e. "deities"). Insofar as the galaxy's inhabitants have collectively manifested these, we must point to the Ones, of Mortis. A triad of a father (who maintains order), a daughter (who creates new life) and a son (who destroys). This is very much akin to the central Hindu triad of creator-preserver-destroyer. Representative of the natural cycle of renewal, as it were.
(An instantation that comes closest to the typcal 40K approach -- although still far removed from it -- may be identified in the Goddess cult of the Pius Dea movement.)
A very striking result is that whatever "dark" impulse is manifested in the Force does not take the shape of a distinct "god", but rather appears as a more selfish realisation. Dark Siders are not like Chaos adepts, because they are too egocentric for that. They become atomised away from all others, whereas those who are in the Light are all linked together in supernatural harmony. This may be the natural state of the Immaterium, or it may just be a result of the dominant "trends" in the thinking (and feeling) of sapients in this galaxy.
At any rate, it suggests that if the imported Chaos legions seek more power, they'll find it by becoming... more like Sith. By adapting to their new situation, and seeking out the sources of power that it offers them. And in doing so, they'll be afflicted by the same weaknesses that beset the Sith (and all Dark Siders), in that they become more atomised. More self-centred and self-obsessed.
Possibly to the point that subjugation to, let's face it, those now rather distant Ruinous Powers becomes less and less attractive. Thus leeching away the power of Chaos, and slowly turning the legions of Chaos into something far more like a Sith Empire.
(And, conversely, if a Sith Empire of old were to ve transplanted to the 40K setting, its Dark Siders would just as surely become swayed, and ultimately dominated, by the Chaos Gods.)
Carrot of Truth
War is Peace
The warp was basically like the force originally but then the war between the Old Ones and C'tan mutilated it into becoming hell.
King Arts
Well-known member
Please read what I typed. Yes the warp is there, but it's not that strong as in 40k.
Are you saying in warhammer 40k that chaos was always as strong and active as it was in 40k? There was no differance in 30k, or pre fall of the Eldar, or pre war in heaven?
Why should there be an eye of terror in the Star Wars universe when nothing happened?
Yeah the more I think about it Palpatine would probably want to become a literal God now instead of serving under one. That would probably be the main storyline in the second trilogy of this crossover.
He is kinda Tzeentchian but his ambition will have him carving out his own dogmatic niche if he can.
The first trilogy dealing with the cataclysmic arrival of Chaos obviously.
He is kinda Tzeentchian but his ambition will have him carving out his own dogmatic niche if he can.
The first trilogy dealing with the cataclysmic arrival of Chaos obviously.
Agent23
Ни шагу назад!
The strength and capabilities of the Warp are not clarified, so barring any other info I will assume that it will provide the same level of benefits to the Primarchs as it did on the 40k MW.
Notice I asked the OP a out the same thing in my first post in the thread.
Carrot of Truth
War is Peace
Yeah the more I think about it Palpatine would probably want to become a literal God now instead of serving under one. That would probably be the main storyline in the second trilogy of this crossover.
He is kinda Tzeentchian but his ambition will have him carving out his own dogmatic niche if he can.
The first trilogy dealing with the cataclysmic arrival of Chaos obviously.
Palpatine would undoubtedly become a pawn for a Chaos god which could make for a compelling story on its own. The best part though is that the Republic would have to become something tyrannical just in order to survive and maintain some sense of stability. Pretty much they would need to bring back the Pius dea.
Better aesthetics anyways.
Palpatine would undoubtedly become a pawn for a Chaos god which could make for a compelling story on its own. The best part though is that the Republic would have to become something tyrannical just in order to survive and maintain some sense of stability. Pretty much they would need to bring back the Pius dea.
Better aesthetics anyways.
Might be more of a militant Jedi Religion. We can have actual substantive differences between Beliefs on the Living/Unifying Force and subset Jedi philosophies like Potentium and whatnot.
Seems more related to Star Wars then more Human Supremacy like you low key had with the Empire and more blatantly with the 40k Imperium. Most iterations of the Republic and Jedi Order had lots of different species involved. I'd prefer keeping that going on but more Force Militant then species purity taking a center stage with the Republic.
Carrot of Truth
War is Peace
The Pius Dea was when the Republic became the Imperium of man they even flew around in "Cathedral ships and went on crusades" that said the neogothic aesthic is fucking metal. Now if the Jedi adopted a Neo Gopthic aesthetic and built cathedral ships they would be a hell of a lot cooler!
Yes but it would make it more Warhammer though and we already have Warhammer at home.
And unlike the meme, it's actually Warhammer that's at home, not a Star Wars imitation.
Carrot of Truth
War is Peace
I just think the Neo Gothic aesthetic should be standard in all facets of life tbh
Hmmm well maybe it'll be a splinter group. I don't think it should be the whole thing. The theoretical Star Wars tabletop game can sell more miniatures that way if they add in yet another army list.
Transporting the Chaos Daemonry to the Unknown Regions would be rather convenient. It's somehow still makes up like 30-40% of the main Star Wars Galaxy and proper Hyperspace Lanes through there are highly underdeveloped and utilized there so having Warp shenanigans seeping through there more then elsewhere could be a partial factor.
And it'll give them a proper rivalry with the rest of the Star Wars Galaxy still mostly intact instead of hamstrung by the sudden arrival/absorption of significant swathes of the galaxy.
And it'll give them a proper rivalry with the rest of the Star Wars Galaxy still mostly intact instead of hamstrung by the sudden arrival/absorption of significant swathes of the galaxy.
Sergeant Foley
Well-known member
Definitely following this discussion mega-thread very closely with intriguing interest.
I think one of the limited things in 40K (especially in comparison to say Warhammer Fantasy) is that when you die in 40K, in most cases your soul gets nommed in the Warp so basically a crapsack ending almost regardless. There's exceptions, Aledari Crystals for the Exodites, devoured by C'tan shards, consumed by the Hive Mind and other grimdark nonsense but by and large, unlike in Warhammer Fantasy where souls and the afterlife is basically "undefined" the Chaos Gods apparently get nomming rights on all souls. That wouldn't be the case here so to speak. They would have to nom their worshippers souls... or harvest things from sacrifices and the like as per tradition.
The point of this initial ramble being that there's more divine diversity potential in the Star Wars verse and can help with making the plentiful divine biodiversity that I'm really looking for.
There is definitely a lack of personalization in regards to Deities and the Force is a thing which is far more stable supernatural force then the Warp as you state as well which will impact the influence of the Ruinous Powers as well. There's a lot of religion in Star Wars but it always takes the back burner in most cases.
The fact that the Sith are Egocentric is an important observation that you made as well. As another illustrative example, it's like the difference I feel between seeing Viltrumites versus Saiyans in a 40K Warp Style setting IMHO. The former are so self centered and smug and egocentric, they would be more resistant to Chaos corruption, the latter however seem like they could fall to someone like Khorne far more readily. There could still be Chaos influenced Sith of course but it wouldn't be something to be taken for granted in a Universe with a far reduced presence in the Warp.
Putting the Ruinous Powers and Chaos in the Unknown Regions would help give a reason for why the Unknown Regions are the way they are because... I've read the Disney (via Fallen Order) and KOTOR explanations for why the Unknown Regions are the way they are and the former seems kinda balls and 40K-lite (and Dune lite as well with Force-sensitive Navigators lol) and the latter is better but does seem kinda War in Heaven-y. But then again, a Great War (Infinite Empire era perhaps) is how the Ruinous Powers came into being in 40K so why not something similar in Star Wars. The other alternative is they just arrive because of the sudden influx of their worshippers arriving.
Either way, the Ruinous Powers arriving and having a power base in the Unknown Regions can help reason why the Unknown Regions are that way. Maybe Ruinous powered sorcery is more powerful there, but the Force is still just as strong there as elsewhere.
Anywho I would prefer the Ruinous Powers and Chaos Worshippers kind of being their own thing instead of becoming more Sith. I'd like to think of them as generally distinct entities, though I like the idea of Chaos worshippers being more Sith in the case of those worshipping and adhering to the Dark Side of the Force and preferably some sort of eldritch/divine Dark Side entities, like mentioned before with what Palpatine wanted to be... or an entity like Darth Nihilus from the KOTOR era. While Palpatine is kinda Tzeentchy... the idea of him being a concept of Dark Side 'Order' would make him distinct from Chaos Gods rather obviously. And Nihilus would have his own thing going on as well that's distinct from the four Ruinous Powers as well.
And like you (and others) referenced, the idea of the 'The Goddess' from the Pius Dea era could be another Force type God and very, very Humanocentric of course.
For the default 'Light' Force I'd still like to see the general following of The Force being more widespread then just a monastic order of Jedi. Like a semi-official religion of the Republic and other goodly normies of the Galaxy. But like I said in my original post, I'd like to see more diversity in the Jedi Order and general Force adherents. Instead of divinity, it can be more philosophy and ideologically/theologically based. They're all adherents to the Living Force as a concept, but got different ways of perceiving and viewing it. So not a personification of Force deities like you'd see with the 'Dark/Sith Gods' since that's a corruption or with 'The Goddess' deity either.
The entry of the Warp entities into the Star Wars Galaxy making personal deification possible is a neat concept I'd like to see explored including divine entities 'conceived by The Force' since the Prequels made that a thing... for some reason.
Didn't really comment much on the trinity with the Father, Son and Daughter and it's relation to Hindu traditions because.. I never really was interesting in that particular plotline in The Clone Wars.
/ramble over
Skallagrim
Well-known member
One thing to consider is that there are ways to escape this. Specifically: faith in a supernatural (i.e. "existing in the Force/Warp") power that isn't Chaos. This is why the Imperium's faith in the Emperor is actually a good thing, and why Big E himself was ironically wrong about religion. He figured "starve the gods by removing faith" was a solution, but people don't work like that. So "direct faith elsewhere" is the only viable path.
So... the faithful of the Imperium don't go to Chaos after dying. They go to the Emperor. He is becoming a god. The faith of his people is turning him into one.
In the SW galaxy, yes-- there are easier alternatives. The principle is the same: you go into the Force. In 40K, that same Fprce is twisted into the Warp, so you go into the Warp, where Chaos now reigns supreme. So you get eaten. But in SW, if you don't follow Chaos, it won't just be able to yank you out of the non-corrupted Force. So there's far more protection to be had.
(The Sith, meanwhile, are "protected" in their own way. All their attempts at immortality are false; they can only leave behind shadows... projections of themselves. To a Sith, utterly unharmonious and thus isolated unto himself, death is utter extinction. I've never liked the idea of some hell-like "netherworld" where they go. I figure Sith just go into the void, and cease existing upon death. Which is, at least, a protection against falling prey to the Ruinous Powers...)
It just makes practical sense to put the Chaos "migrants" there.
Don't know what Disney came up with, but in the old EU, the explanations for the Unknown Region were pretty muddled. In some sources, it's just "no hyperspace good lanes in that direction". In others, it was "lots of hyperspace anomalies". In yet others, it was "huge hyperspace barrier cutting right through the galaxy, and almost impossible to cross".
The latter explanation included hints about it being artificial, and a product of a conjectured fight between the Celestials and.... something.
Yeah. Basically the personification of "purity", from a distinctly human perspective. In fact, if you add in the cathedral ships and the crusades, it's all starting to sound very similar to the Imperium of Man.
Didn't really comment much on the trinity with the Father, Son and Daughter and it's relation to Hindu traditions because.. I never really was interesting in that particular plotline in The Clone Wars.
It's not really my favourite interpretation of Force mysticism, either. In fact, I prefer TCW as a Disney-only kind of thing. But it does fit into this discussion, so... I brought it up.
Okay thanks. I was wondering about that..ink ee faith fueled the Emperor but I wasn't aware of where the souls of the Imperial Faithful ended up.
Warhammer Fantasy ironically would be more akin to Star Wars with the afterlife I feel. No Warp nomming. Lots of deities to end up with but the afterlife in general isn't something dealt with in the lore (outside of being undead of course).
I think the Disney canon is mostly in lore from the new Thrawn novels that Timothy Zahn is penning. Haven't read them yet but they refer to the Unknown Regions as Chaos... Which is something I was unaware of a few days ago. If I was I probably wouldn't of made my suggestion of bringing the Ruinous Powers to said Unknown Regions.
The aesthetic is nice as mentioned before but I agree it's a bit too on the point. Still it's good enough aesthetic for a Humanocentric Faction and would be good for wooing Humanity Supremacist 40K fans into this verse.