Fallout The Eagle And The Bear [Fallout AU]

SuperHeavy

Well-known member
You assume that they will. I’d argue that they wouldn’t because of how much of a security risk it would be. They do have an internet, but it seem to just be for emails. And generally seems restricted to job or work related stuff.
The original internet came from very similar beginnings as well, in the coming decades just like OTL technology and economic pressures should push a wider network into public use. As for the NCR winning, despite the US taking some body blows the sheer amount of industrial, manpower, and technological advancement swinging into gear is telling.
 

DarthOne

☦️
The original internet came from very similar beginnings as well, in the coming decades just like OTL technology and economic pressures should push a wider network into public use. As for the NCR winning, despite the US taking some body blows the sheer amount of industrial, manpower, and technological advancement swinging into gear is telling.

Never said the NCR would win. Not sure where you are getting that one from?
 

ForeverShogo

Well-known member
For an earlier comment . . . I don't really think the Brotherhood elements in Alaska will ever really amount to anything more than a mild annoyance at best. The core of the Brotherhood's controlled territory has some of the lowest population levels of Pre-War America. Hell, it's probably why the Brotherhood was able to establish their neo-feudalist kingdom. A small enough population for their limited numbers to lord over with their power armor.

Alaska isn't really any better.

And, of course, the way the Brotherhood does things means they can't really maintain any kind of proper frontline. Which is why we saw that their lines have collapsed and the United States is overrunning their positions and driving deep into their territory. Because their continued survival was utterly dependent on never facing someone who could meaningfully fight back. They're just too dogmatically stupid to avoid pissing off people who can kick their ass.

I also feel like that one NCR officer is setting his own lines up for a catastrophe. Being on the offensive is a lot more costly than being on the defensive, and he seems to be relying on broad front human wave attacks to try to find a weakness in America's lines. Which is likely seriously weakening his forces and setting up the possibility of a nasty counterattack.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
More art right now, as a belated Christmas gift:


(Simplified) ORBAT of a United States Infantry Regiment, after the reforms introduced at the beginning of 2332:

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NCR 4-star General in dress uniform:

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Navarro

Well-known member
And, of course, the way the Brotherhood does things means they can't really maintain any kind of proper frontline. Which is why we saw that their lines have collapsed and the United States is overrunning their positions and driving deep into their territory. Because their continued survival was utterly dependent on never facing someone who could meaningfully fight back. They're just too dogmatically stupid to avoid pissing off people who can kick their ass.
They can't maintain a proper frontline largely for the same reason the French couldn't in 1940 and the Iraqis in '91. E-US troops are literally blitzing them, breaking into their own lines of communication and logistics, encircling and destroying units, arriving at BOS fallback points before they even get there. The fighting on the Great Plains is gonna build up eventually to the greatest tank battle ever in North America.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
This makes me wonder just how warped internet culture is going to be once they get around to inventing that. That and high performance computers that don't weigh a few tons and need enough power to light up an apartment complex.
They have briefcase-sized laptops, UIs that don't suck complete ass, and flip-phones by now (not to mention pipboys w/ touch screens). Military and government networks are pretty sophisticated as well ... internet, well, we'll see what the civilian side of that looks like soon.
I also feel like that one NCR officer is setting his own lines up for a catastrophe. Being on the offensive is a lot more costly than being on the defensive, and he seems to be relying on broad front human wave attacks to try to find a weakness in America's lines. Which is likely seriously weakening his forces and setting up the possibility of a nasty counterattack.
Maguire is actually pretty sophisticated - trying to break up each big US formation from each other so he can achieve local superiority over each one and defeat them in detail. It's pretty superior to the counterattack on Houston, which was an immediate response to the invasion of Texas (NCR dealing with that was pretty bad in general, between the decapitation of Texan command and most NCR forces being scattered across the countryside on COIN duties). That's why dislocating the 55th Corps from its defensive positions on I35 by having the Mexicans invade, (incidentally meaning the NCR only had to initially face light infantry National Guard troops) was so essential.

In general though, it's actually sound tactics to stay in contact to an enemy force when they have fire superiority over you, as that then means they can't actually employ those fires w/o running the risk of hitting their own troops. That's how the Chinese dealt with UN fire superiority in Korea, for instance.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
Hmmm, just suddenly realized that the E-USA will still have to deal with the Alaskan Brotherhood and it will be interested how the E-USA strategy will deal with them while they are dealing with the NCR. Probably would also be a point the "main" Brotherhood (or rather parts of it) will retreat to that isn't NCR territory if they have any stubborn disagreement, which considering they a feudalistic society and can have their "nobles" suddenly just break off with their main forces, especially if their "homeland" is occupied and they may lose any true centralizing command to organize them possibly.
Note the comment Fairchild makes to POTUS about CIA contacts in the BOS, a few chapters ago. That'll be important. Also ... 2k words into Chapter Thirty!
 

Crow gotta eat

That peckish, patriotic, Protestant passerine.
Note the comment Fairchild makes to POTUS about CIA contacts in the BOS, a few chapters ago.
This will definitely be interesting then. Because the Alaskan Brotherhood just has a bit of interesting geography in relation to the rest of the "main" Brotherhood, so I figured it would some interesting politics to it, plus the tidbits we learned about it from the other fics.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
Two very big battles happening this chapter.

==*==

The battle of Corpus Christi began almost as a complete surprise. Corporal John Figueroa idly watched from his foxhole, his eyes barely above ground level but still seeing the distant shapes of eye-guys dimly in the early morning light, visible mostly by the orange glare of their eyelights. The NCR's men were pressing closer every day, digging their foxholes and dugouts closer and closer to the Enclave lines. Sporadic bursts of plasma and laser fire, exchanges of mortar shells and mini-nukes, all were meeting in action night and day. The only problem was that the NCR had to let up at night; the Old World bastards were always getting the better of them in the darkness, when NCR soldiers couldn't fire on them without exposing their own positions. The PA and Ranger units, equipped with night vision gear at levels equal to the Enclave soldiers, were holding their own – but Figueroa was no powered soldier or Ranger.

That was when the shells started raining. They came roaring in from seawards, making bigger blasts even than the Old World vultures' nuke-launchers, dozens all at once. Corporal Figueroa held himself prone to the ground and pushed his hands tight to his ear, dirt covering the glasses of his gas-mask helmet – anything to stop the awful drumbeat of the battleship shells larger by far than the Enclave's heaviest land-bound guns, every shot loud as a thundercrack. Behind the lines, at NCR Army AA positions, depots, regimental HQs, everything just vanished in roaring waves of earth and fire, plasma and fusion shells mixed with thermobarics annihilating everything, turning metal to slag, earth to glass, and men to vapour. Then, the Marines' organic artillery added their voices to the choir – mixed Electric Ediths and dedicated Longbow vehicles, the latter sending multiple rounds at different speeds and ballistic arcs so that each hit at the same time – electronic fire control, autoloaders and elmag propulsion made each piece near-equal to a battery.

Figueroa chanced to look up, his ears in agony, barely able to hear as the distant boom of explosive blasts came from everywhere around him. Then he saw white streaks across the sky, moving so fast he could barely notice their presence, the roar of their passing coming only long after they'd already gone. A terrible sense of doom filled him as to what those white streaks meant.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
Another part of Kimball's speech, as I'm feeling bad about how dirty the NCR's been done by Bethesda:

-*-
"There are some who will inevitably, out of cowardice or treachery, say that this news means we must not stand and fight, that there would be no difference between Enclave domination and the rule of our Republic. On the contrary, it should drive us to fight all the harder. If the NCR falls, there is nothing that stands between the Enclave and total world domination. Just like at Navarro, at the oil rig, we are the last line of defence for all humanity. Their parody of democracy and the autocratic monarchies they have openly allied with will split up the globe between them, until the Enclave itself turns on and devours its allies. Their politicians openly speak of 'global pre-eminence' and have declared much of northern Mexico already to be annexed. They want to eat the world – let our mighty mountain walls and redwood pillars break their teeth!"
 

Crow gotta eat

That peckish, patriotic, Protestant passerine.
Another part of Kimball's speech, as I'm feeling bad about how dirty the NCR's been done by Bethesda:
Bethesda really loves their "skeletons in chairs inside huts people still live in" wasteland setting and they can't have people truly rebuilding despite it being human nature to do so after like every setback, even if it takes a while. Thus they can't have a standing strong (or relatively strong) NCR making things "easier" for the Wasteland.
"There are some who will inevitably, out of cowardice or treachery, say that this news means we must not stand and fight, that there would be no difference between Enclave domination and the rule of our Republic. On the contrary, it should drive us to fight all the harder. If the NCR falls, there is nothing that stands between the Enclave and total world domination. Just like at Navarro, at the oil rig, we are the last line of defence for all humanity. Their parody of democracy and the autocratic monarchies they have openly allied with will split up the globe between them, until the Enclave itself turns on and devours its allies. Their politicians openly speak of 'global pre-eminence' and have declared much of northern Mexico already to be annexed. They want to eat the world – let our mighty mountain walls and redwood pillars break their teeth!"
They are not exactly wrong, except maybe the Autocratic monarchies part and the turning on their allies part, as historically speaking the USA usually only turned on their "allies" in two ways, not wanting to pay back money or just deciding to go back to being overall politically neutral on the world stage. At least usually, that stand out the most, as I suppose you could count any broken treaties with native tribes as "turning on allies" I suppose but that doesn't really stand any more than anyone else who broke treaties with much weaker parties/neighbors and subjugated them.

The UK probably does want some trade commonwealth again with its old historical colonies like before... if any current regime there is open to it at least.

Germany probably wants to continue to influence other European countries at the very least, and maybe create a few more puppet states/newly aligned regimes in other countries near to it.

The E-USA does want all of Northern Mexico for security reasons, and then behind closed doors some want all of Mexico and the other countries between it and Gran Columbia. Then control of the various Pacific islands and the Philippine islands, Singapore, Gibraltar and the Suez canal, etc. thus giving them a stranglehold on world trade and make mostly everyone play nice with them, even if they don't really want to control what every country does.

Also interestingly, even logically I understand what Kimbal means by "we are the last defense of humanity" just means "We are between the world and tyranny" it still kinda plays into the "Wastelander-supremacist" (hopefully mostly) fringe ideology we saw bits of before as it kind of indirectly implies the Enclave are not human.
 
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Navarro

Well-known member
The E-USA does want all of Northern Mexico for security reasons, and then behind closed doors some want all of Mexico and the other countries between it and Gran Columbia. Then control of the various Pacific islands and the Philippine islands, Singapore, Gibraltar and the Suez canal, etc. thus giving them a stranglehold on world trade and make mostly everyone play nice with them, even if they don't really want to control what every country does.
And who can blame them? From the Federalist Party's standpoint, hegemony is the only solution to national security problems. International orgs meant to keep the peace such as the LoN and the UN repeatedly collapsed. Isolationist withdrawal from the world led to the US being sucker punched at Pearl Harbour and Anchorage. The EuroCom held the line against the Soviets ... until they fell apart in one giant clusterfuck. China, a rival nuclear superpower, was being contained in the 21st century phase of the Cold War ... until it broke containment in a massive way.

Everything other than a vigorous hegemony to prevent the rise of major hostile power blocks and a total ban on anybody else getting nukes is in their PoV, nothing but wishful thinking.

Also interestingly, even logically I understand what Kimbal means by "we are the last defense of humanity" just means "We are between the world and tyranny" it still kinda plays into the "Wastelander-supremacist" (hopefully mostly) fringe ideology we saw bits of before as it kind of indirectly implies the Enclave are not human.
Kimball has to play a bit to everyone, even the fringe. The situation he's in has left him on very thin ice.
 
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ForeverShogo

Well-known member
Yeah. What the show did to the NCR and New Vegas is more than a little infuriating. Especially given that Bethesda considers the show to be canon.

=====

As for Nate being part of that broadcast . . . So what? It seems some people think that the person who got executed was innocent even though they were clearly wearing combat armor. Yes, under normal circumstances that person would qualify as a POW and as such that'd be a war crime . . . But who the fuck is going to enforce it? Who the fuck was even still around to care about maintaining the Geneva Convention?

Even disregarding however fucked up one might or might not think the US had become by the time they annexed Canada, if they decided to just declare Canadians resisting them to be illegal combatants, and were thus considered subject to a summary execution, there wasn't a damn thing anyone could do about it. The world order had effectively collapsed. The nations of the world had degenerated into a dog eat dog/every man for himself scenario so bad that Europe essentially destroyed itself when its constituent nations all turned on one another.

Sure. In a normal, still civilized world that kind of thing is important. But the world was already burning down around everyone even before the nukes dropped. The only reason the United States was in any position to survive was its embracing of atomicpunk technologies.

It was harsh. You could even call it unnecessary if you want. But in a fight for survival it was also expedient.

tl;dr I genuinely don't care that the US was executing enemy combatants. Or that Nate participated in those executions.
 

DarthOne

☦️
Yeah. What the show did to the NCR and New Vegas is more than a little infuriating. Especially given that Bethesda considers the show to be canon.

=====

As for Nate being part of that broadcast . . . So what? It seems some people think that the person who got executed was innocent even though they were clearly wearing combat armor. Yes, under normal circumstances that person would qualify as a POW and as such that'd be a war crime . . . But who the fuck is going to enforce it? Who the fuck was even still around to care about maintaining the Geneva Convention?

Even disregarding however fucked up one might or might not think the US had become by the time they annexed Canada, if they decided to just declare Canadians resisting them to be illegal combatants, and were thus considered subject to a summary execution, there wasn't a damn thing anyone could do about it. The world order had effectively collapsed. The nations of the world had degenerated into a dog eat dog/every man for himself scenario so bad that Europe essentially destroyed itself when its constituent nations all turned on one another.

Sure. In a normal, still civilized world that kind of thing is important. But the world was already burning down around everyone even before the nukes dropped. The only reason the United States was in any position to survive was its embracing of atomicpunk technologies.

It was harsh. You could even call it unnecessary if you want. But in a fight for survival it was also expedient.

tl;dr I genuinely don't care that the US was executing enemy combatants. Or that Nate participated in those executions.

For me, it’s more of ‘the guy was THAT loyal to the USA, it should have been a larger element of his character/personality when it comes to interacting with the post-war factions’.

But that also goes back to my issues with F4 having a pre-war protagonist and NOT DOING ANYTHING INTERESTING WITH THEM.
 
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